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There was much talk on the various referendum threads about how this shouldn't be on UKC as it has nothing to do with climbing. The BMC have just published an article on how it may well access to the outdoors which some may find interesting
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/brexit-eu-referendum-impact-outdoor-natural-world
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/brexit-eu-referendum-impact-outdoor-natural-world
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In reply to ebdon:
It's strange - as I head towards retirement I keep on thinking I might spend a year or two in Europe and then remember - uh-oh, it might just not be as easy as it would have been a couple of weeks ago.
It's strange - as I head towards retirement I keep on thinking I might spend a year or two in Europe and then remember - uh-oh, it might just not be as easy as it would have been a couple of weeks ago.
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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Its not strange, its a massive pile of steaming sh*t!
(That is this referendum business, not youre retirement,which I'm sure will be lovely)
Its not strange, its a massive pile of steaming sh*t!
(That is this referendum business, not youre retirement,which I'm sure will be lovely)
Post edited at 17:25
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In reply to ebdon:
Now the Tory pensioner lobby is in charge I imagine we'll need to buy ropes by the yard.
Now the Tory pensioner lobby is in charge I imagine we'll need to buy ropes by the yard.
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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
I very much doubt you'll have any problems spending a significant amount of time in Europe. Worst case scenario is you'd have to cross a border and get a new passport stamp after say 90 days as you do in many other visa free countries.
I very much doubt you'll have any problems spending a significant amount of time in Europe. Worst case scenario is you'd have to cross a border and get a new passport stamp after say 90 days as you do in many other visa free countries.
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In reply to ebdon:
More fear mongering... It might, it may, it could... Where was this article before the referendum?
I would hope that if any government tries to move into the national parks, the BMC would be straight onto organising demonstrations etc. I'd like to think that the shear number of disgruntled voters would be enough to dissuade them.
More fear mongering... It might, it may, it could... Where was this article before the referendum?
I would hope that if any government tries to move into the national parks, the BMC would be straight onto organising demonstrations etc. I'd like to think that the shear number of disgruntled voters would be enough to dissuade them.
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In reply to ScottTalbot:
Is it fearmoungering if people are ligitamaly scared of risks that very real? Not knowing what the hell will happen is pretty scary IMHO.
Is it fearmoungering if people are ligitamaly scared of risks that very real? Not knowing what the hell will happen is pretty scary IMHO.
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In reply to ebdon:
A worsening exchange rate with the Euro will increase prices on Bergfreunde, which is a disaster in my book
A worsening exchange rate with the Euro will increase prices on Bergfreunde, which is a disaster in my book
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In reply to mrphilipoldham:
Sorry but this is just a complete delusion. The 90 day thing is limited to every six months.
Of course doing any kind of salaried work would require qualifying for a work permit.
> I very much doubt you'll have any problems spending a significant amount of time in Europe. Worst case scenario is you'd have to cross a border and get a new passport stamp after say 90 days as you do in many other visa free countries.
Sorry but this is just a complete delusion. The 90 day thing is limited to every six months.
Of course doing any kind of salaried work would require qualifying for a work permit.
Post edited at 12:36
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In reply to RomTheBear:
Correct, but he mentioned retirement so I doubt that'd be an issue.
Further to this, I've flown in to Brazil, been granted 90 days.. left for Argentina (just for a day, visiting Iguazu Falls) then returned to a brand new 90 day stamp, on the same page as the previous one.
Same goes for Hong Kong, albeit with two weeks between visits.
Correct, but he mentioned retirement so I doubt that'd be an issue.
Further to this, I've flown in to Brazil, been granted 90 days.. left for Argentina (just for a day, visiting Iguazu Falls) then returned to a brand new 90 day stamp, on the same page as the previous one.
Same goes for Hong Kong, albeit with two weeks between visits.
Post edited at 13:12
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In reply to mrphilipoldham:
It would be. You wouldn't be able to settle down in a place for a year or two. The 90 days thing is meant for short business, visitors and tourists, not for people to reside. As I said you would need to be out for three months out of every 6. Doesn't seem practical to me !
Yes, but for obvious reasons Schengen immigration and border policy is not the same as Brazil or Hong Kong.
It's very simple really, if the uk wants to prevent EU citizens from coming to the uk to reside and work freely, and replace free movement with a point/visa system, expect similar restrictions to apply on British citizens.
> Correct, but he mentioned retirement so I doubt that'd be an issue.
It would be. You wouldn't be able to settle down in a place for a year or two. The 90 days thing is meant for short business, visitors and tourists, not for people to reside. As I said you would need to be out for three months out of every 6. Doesn't seem practical to me !
> Further to this, I've flown in to Brazil, been granted 90 days.. left for Argentina (just for a day, visiting Iguazu Falls) then returned to a brand new 90 day stamp, on the same page as the previous one.
> Same goes for Hong Kong, albeit with two weeks between visits.
Yes, but for obvious reasons Schengen immigration and border policy is not the same as Brazil or Hong Kong.
It's very simple really, if the uk wants to prevent EU citizens from coming to the uk to reside and work freely, and replace free movement with a point/visa system, expect similar restrictions to apply on British citizens.
Post edited at 13:40
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In reply to mrphilipoldham:
We aren't talking travel here but living and retiring in other countries. Obviously travel visas aren't appropriate.
We aren't talking travel here but living and retiring in other countries. Obviously travel visas aren't appropriate.
Post edited at 13:39
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In reply to RomTheBear:
Nor did he say he'd 'settle down' for a year or two. He said he'd spend a year or two in Europe, which to me suggests moving around. Besides, France and Italy both offer long term visas, up to a year and there's a 'self employment' visa in Germany which'll last you two years and by all accounts is rather simple to acquire.
Nor did he say he'd 'settle down' for a year or two. He said he'd spend a year or two in Europe, which to me suggests moving around. Besides, France and Italy both offer long term visas, up to a year and there's a 'self employment' visa in Germany which'll last you two years and by all accounts is rather simple to acquire.
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In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
That's a harsh thing to say about the BMC, young man.
> Now the Tory pensioner lobby is in charge I imagine we'll need to buy ropes by the yard.
That's a harsh thing to say about the BMC, young man.
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In reply to ebdon:
Strange how UKC discussion of a BMC article rapidly becomes a thread discussing Rob Exile Ward's retirement plans
> There was much talk on the various referendum threads about how this shouldn't be on UKC as it has nothing to do with climbing. The BMC have just published an article on how it may well access to the outdoors which some may find interesting
Strange how UKC discussion of a BMC article rapidly becomes a thread discussing Rob Exile Ward's retirement plans
In reply to jon:
Just because you currently live 1,347 furlongs and 8 chains away from the UK there is NO need to be smug.
Just because you currently live 1,347 furlongs and 8 chains away from the UK there is NO need to be smug.
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In reply to mrphilipoldham:
Even if you move around Europe, the same rule apply, given that the 90 days out of 180 days rule applies to the whole Schengen area.
I'm sorry but expecting that we would end free movement of European nationals in the UK whilst British nationals would still enjoy it in the rest of the EU is not practical, wrong in legal terms, and quite deluded TBH.
> Nor did he say he'd 'settle down' for a year or two. He said he'd spend a year or two in Europe, which to me suggests moving around. Besides, France and Italy both offer long term visas, up to a year and there's a 'self employment' visa in Germany which'll last you two years and by all accounts is rather simple to acquire.
Even if you move around Europe, the same rule apply, given that the 90 days out of 180 days rule applies to the whole Schengen area.
I'm sorry but expecting that we would end free movement of European nationals in the UK whilst British nationals would still enjoy it in the rest of the EU is not practical, wrong in legal terms, and quite deluded TBH.
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In reply to RomTheBear:
I'm not saying that movement wouldn't be restricted, I'm saying that living in Europe for a year or two (as many non-Schengen citizens currently enjoy) would be far from impossible. Which is quite blatantly obvious.
Nor was I signalling any wish to end free movement of EU nationals here, whilst keeping our own freedom in the EU and am quite insulted/bemused that you believe that.
I'm not saying that movement wouldn't be restricted, I'm saying that living in Europe for a year or two (as many non-Schengen citizens currently enjoy) would be far from impossible. Which is quite blatantly obvious.
Nor was I signalling any wish to end free movement of EU nationals here, whilst keeping our own freedom in the EU and am quite insulted/bemused that you believe that.
Post edited at 14:14
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In reply to Andy Say:
Back on topic...... I was at a meeting today with various industrial types who operate on greenfield sites who were under the impression that a full eu exit would mean removal of the legal requirements for environmental impact assessment and removal of blocks on development of loads of restricted sites (currently protected by various eu things like the habitats directive and nature 2000 sites). Obviously no one knows what will happen and I don't fully understand how eu law stands in UK law but it's a bit scary.
Back on topic...... I was at a meeting today with various industrial types who operate on greenfield sites who were under the impression that a full eu exit would mean removal of the legal requirements for environmental impact assessment and removal of blocks on development of loads of restricted sites (currently protected by various eu things like the habitats directive and nature 2000 sites). Obviously no one knows what will happen and I don't fully understand how eu law stands in UK law but it's a bit scary.
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In reply to ebdon:
"Brexit impact on climbing"
I think the biggest impact is what it's done to this forum!
"Brexit impact on climbing"
I think the biggest impact is what it's done to this forum!
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In reply to mrphilipoldham:
No, actually, living in a European country is quite difficult for non-EEA. Ask anyone who's been through the process. I know many and quite often it involved many months of waiting for documents / visa to be processed, not to mention the fees.
It's pretty much what you suggest. If it was easy to go to live in another country for a couple of years that would be akin to freedom of movement.
Point is, by default you simply can't reside in another Schengen country if you're not EEA.
If you still want to then you have to go through the visa system, which obviously is expensive and would exclude the vast majority of people.
> I'm not saying that movement wouldn't be restricted, I'm saying that living in Europe for a year or two (as many non-Schengen citizens currently enjoy) would be far from impossible. Which is quite blatantly obvious.
No, actually, living in a European country is quite difficult for non-EEA. Ask anyone who's been through the process. I know many and quite often it involved many months of waiting for documents / visa to be processed, not to mention the fees.
> Nor was I signalling any wish to end free movement of EU nationals here, whilst keeping our own freedom in the EU and am quite insulted/bemused that you believe that.
It's pretty much what you suggest. If it was easy to go to live in another country for a couple of years that would be akin to freedom of movement.
Point is, by default you simply can't reside in another Schengen country if you're not EEA.
If you still want to then you have to go through the visa system, which obviously is expensive and would exclude the vast majority of people.
Post edited at 15:49
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In reply to ebdon:
I imagine it'll be a bugger for British Mountain Guides wanting to work in the Alps. And seeing as most of them also spend extended periods living and climbing in the Alps while training and qualifying, I guess it could make it harder or longer to gain the qualification. Any BMGs able to comment?
I imagine it'll be a bugger for British Mountain Guides wanting to work in the Alps. And seeing as most of them also spend extended periods living and climbing in the Alps while training and qualifying, I guess it could make it harder or longer to gain the qualification. Any BMGs able to comment?
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In reply to ebdon:
Both the Birds & Habitats Directive have been implemented in the UK by national legislation/regulations so as far as I know they stay in force until they are repealed or replaced which is likely to take some time. Also worth remembering that some of the protected sites are also protected (to some extent) by the International Ramsar Convention and many of the species protected by the UK being a signatory to the Bern Convention on wildlife.
Both the Birds & Habitats Directive have been implemented in the UK by national legislation/regulations so as far as I know they stay in force until they are repealed or replaced which is likely to take some time. Also worth remembering that some of the protected sites are also protected (to some extent) by the International Ramsar Convention and many of the species protected by the UK being a signatory to the Bern Convention on wildlife.
In reply to Doug:
Cheers good to know. I had presumed eu laws were also UK laws by default (i.e. leaving the eu would have little effect apart from it making it easier at some future point to change them) but was confused by what industry bods were saying this was specifically in relation to EIAs and envronmental monitoring leagal requirements which I know are imposed by the eu by things like the habitats directive I just wasn't sure how it all works with UK legislation
Cheers good to know. I had presumed eu laws were also UK laws by default (i.e. leaving the eu would have little effect apart from it making it easier at some future point to change them) but was confused by what industry bods were saying this was specifically in relation to EIAs and envronmental monitoring leagal requirements which I know are imposed by the eu by things like the habitats directive I just wasn't sure how it all works with UK legislation
In reply to ebdon:
Nah many EU laws are not translated in uk law, that means when we leave these will essentially disappear.
That is an interesting point that was raised in the treasury committee, such a regulatory vacuum would wreck havoc. Unfortunately replacing all of these laws within two years is way beyond the ability of any parliament, that means the only way would be a massive transfer of power to the executive, which is quite worrying.
> Cheers good to know. I had presumed eu laws were also UK laws by default (i.e. leaving the eu would have little effect apart from it making it easier at some future point to change them) but was confused by what industry bods were saying this was specifically in relation to EIAs and envronmental monitoring leagal requirements which I know are imposed by the eu by things like the habitats directive I just wasn't sure how it all works with UK legislation
Nah many EU laws are not translated in uk law, that means when we leave these will essentially disappear.
That is an interesting point that was raised in the treasury committee, such a regulatory vacuum would wreck havoc. Unfortunately replacing all of these laws within two years is way beyond the ability of any parliament, that means the only way would be a massive transfer of power to the executive, which is quite worrying.
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In reply to ebdon:
its not that the EU forced anyone to bolt like the french around here.
(rusty bolts on 5's from the 70's, bolts on alpine classics... )
though it would be nice if the UK was forced to put a few lower off anchors sometimes...
its not that the EU forced anyone to bolt like the french around here.
(rusty bolts on 5's from the 70's, bolts on alpine classics... )
though it would be nice if the UK was forced to put a few lower off anchors sometimes...
In reply to RomTheBear:
varies quite a lot, I work with the nature directives so know they are in British law, not so sure for EIAs. And yes, it is worrying that much of the change won't be subject to debate in parliament
> Nah many EU laws are not translated in uk law, that means when we leave these will essentially disappear.
varies quite a lot, I work with the nature directives so know they are in British law, not so sure for EIAs. And yes, it is worrying that much of the change won't be subject to debate in parliament
Post edited at 18:46
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