UKC

My climbing evening was well and truly ruined and I felt like I was back at school being told off by a teacher for wearing the wrong coloured socks. And I was so excited about going back to train at my favourite climbing gym in London, The Reach...

"You can't do that here, it's dangerous and sets a bad example to others," we were told about half an hour into our training session by a member of staff. Clay and I were doing fall practice on one of the easier routes, a core part of our training to build confidence while lead climbing.

Advocated by some of the top climbers in the world, including Dave MacLeod (yes, I know I keep going on about his book), it's something I have incorporated into every indoor lead climbing session since January and I have written about it, and how much it has helped my confidence, in a previous blog.

Practicing falls has helped me immensely with my fear of leading, even though I still have a long way to go. In his book, 9 out of 10 climbers make the same mistakes, MacLeod advocates hundreds, thousands of practice falls. He reckons fear of falling is the biggest thing holding most climbers back from achieving their potential, and I am in full agreement. I was terrified of falling before I started practicing this religiously, and I already feel so much better just a few months down the line.

So you can imagine how frustrated I was when a member of staff, one I have never seen at The Reach before, told me off, like a school girl, for "doing something bad". He told us it was an unsafe practice, despite the fact that I had used a belay bag to counter the difference in weight between me and Clay as I was belaying, so I wouldn't get pulled up in the air too much.

"You can kick the person belaying next to you in the head," we were told. I asked politely if it would be OK to carry on with our fall practice on a different wall, but was told a flat out "No".

"Not this time in the evening, it's busy and it sets a bad example," he said. He wasn't interested in compromise. That would have undermined his overinflated sense of smug authority, and that just won't do, will it?

Now, I have done plenty of fall practice at this climbing gym, and others, over the past few months. No one else has ever complained or told me I was putting the climbers around me in danger, until now.

It is a core part of my training and not something I am willing to give up, nor something I can easily do elsewhere, as the climbing gym is my main place of training during the week. Not to mention, falling outdoors is much scarier and more dangerous, and that is precisely the reason we have been training in the gym, to help us with our fears outdoors.

So I'm sure you can imagine I was fuming. We were both fuming. I don't remember the last time I was this angry at one person.

The thing is, there are no clearly set out rules stipulating that practicing lead falls is forbidden in climbing gyms. In fact, most climbing gyms include lead fall practice when they teach novices to lead, because, you know, it's really important to learn to fall well.

Apart from that, what happens if my leader takes an unintended fall on the same climbing wall? He will pull me up for sure, and it will be less controlled because I won't expect it. What if I'm doing a hard route and I fall off five times? The same five falls Clay did on his lead when this uber-important figure of authority came to tell us off?

Should I give up on the idea of doing anything that's beyond my grade just in case I take a fall and, god forbid, scare some children, or fall in an unlucky enough way to kick someone??

I should have told all this straight to his face, of course, but it took me some time to gather my thoughts. And I think the disappointment in 'my' climbing gym hit me so hard I couldn't focus.

I know we live in a hysterically overprotective nanny state, where children are barely allowed to play any contact sports for fear they may get one or two scratches, but I thought climbing was exempt from this kind of ridiculous sentiment. Climbing, which stands for freedom, bravery and independent thinking, and a sport I love so passionately and fiercely. Are we really expected to wrap it up in a cotton wool cocoon because something might potentially go a little bit wrong???

The most infuriating thing about all of this is that this man, whose name unfortunately I didn't get but I'm sure he'll know who I mean if he reads this (and I hope to God he does!), didn't even understand what we were so upset about.

Why would you want to achieve your full potential and overcome your fears, right? Buckle up and for God's sake don't take any risks. Injury and death is waiting for you around EVERY corner!!

I could go on about this for a while, but it has turned into enough of a rant as it is, so I'll stop, because I'm struggling to find the words to fully express my frustration and anger. Way to go, Mr Self-Important Climbing Instructor.

I wonder what Dave MacLeod would have to say about this...?

In reply to girlclimber:

It's their wall, they can set whatever rules they want. Vote with your feet and take your money elsewhere.

In reply to girlclimber:

Who's Clay?

In reply to girlclimber:

your frustration is understandable, however... please don't think i'm being nasty, but you should probably discuss this with the wall manager before posting on UKC

In reply to girlclimber:
Was there a climber on the very next line to you?
If there was then he may have a point, otherwise he sounds like a self-important bell end.

I'd go back, speak to the manager, and if they really don't want you to take practice falls go somewhere else.

In reply to girlclimber:

Did you speak to the manager? Seems likely that this is one clueless staff member.

In reply to deacondeacon:

+1

Unless you are missing clips to take huge whippers, they should not be able to complain.

In reply to rallymania:

That's bullshit, if a wall has shitty practices or bad members of staff there's no compelling reason to speak to a manager before posting online anywhere she likes. Especially when it's clearly affected her a huge amount.

In reply to girlclimber:

I climb regularly at the Reach and have found the staff to be some of the most friendly and helpful anywhere.

I've taken what many would describe as an unreasonable number of (unintentional) falls relative to climbs at the gym and never got any complaints!

Falling on lead walls is a part of leading and I have never seen anyone hit anyone on a fall (surely they would have to be under you?) so this sounds like a pretty bad reason for not allowing it. The whole point of a climbing gym is a safe and controlled environment to practice the art of climbing...

Definitely have a word with the management, I'd be very surprised if this was the walls policy.

In reply to planetmarshall:


The hell with it.

Vote with your arms and just fall off.

In reply to girlclimber:
I'd probably just be more subtle in my practice falling and keep going climbing there if it was me.

In reply to girlclimber:

Hi,

I'm not sure if you really appreciate it from his point of view. His job is to make sure that people are safe in the wall. You are doing something which looks more risky than it actually is. I personally think that fall practice is good, and when in done in the right manner is safer than fulling unexpectedly off of a route.

Falls naturally draw peoples attention, so someone actively looking for unsafe practices would obviously flag it. I'm sure you would if you were in his position. Without being there and speculating a little, I can imagine he let a few slide before he came and spoke to you? He's probably run through a few scenarios, connected a few dots and made a few judgements. one of the most obvious to me is that people doing fall practice might not be the most confident people - that's a logical conclusion. The fact that he mentioned other people around shows his concern for your ability to hold such falls. Remember, he doesn't know you or what you are capable of.

In regards to what he said to you; have you ever had to tell an adult off? It's one of the hardest things. You try to be non-offensive, non-patronising and yet continue to be authoritative. There's a sweet spot and not many people have it because no-one ever does it regularly! And considering he's a climber, I suspect he's usually pretty laid back, and was probably quite out of his comfort zone. You 'fuming' probably didn't help.

If you still feel that he was out of line to ask you to do something which could potentially harm you and or others, then I think you should probably have gone and spoken to his manager. And if he was the manager then tough luck, he's been put in that position because the owners trust his judgement. Go to another wall.

In reply to girlclimber:

This is truly bad. Intentional falling was absolutely crucial to developing as a leader and pushing my grades.

Shame on The Reach for basically halting your progress on leading confidence that evenining, which is just as important as finger strength, maybe even more.

It's an integral part of climbing.

Don't let it affect you too much though, go to another wall and keep pushing. It's great to hear about people attacking their weaknesses head on and doing something about it.

In reply to girlclimber:

Before you judge an entire wall based on a single instance or person, go speak to the management. Sounds like the staff member whom spoke to you needs to temper their enthusiasm with a bit more experience.

In reply to girlclimber:

Climbing is an evolving sport still and whilst the fixed protection at a wall is there to protect you when leading, I think some walls don't expect people to regularly fall on it night after night.

You could look upon this as an opportunity to discuss with the wall what their policy is on climbers taking lots of intentional falls when training. For one thing, they might want to beef up the quickdraw slings, use steel karabiners or designate an area of the wall as being ok to repeatedly practice falling. I think that the mindset is that the protection is there in case you fall, rather than being put there so you can fall on it as much as you want, especially on older walls.

In reply to girlclimber:

By ek, this bloke really put your nose out of joint, that's one hell of a rant.

Yet you didn't bother to go to the boss and complain.

Just climb something hard until you fall off.

Get over it and go elsewhere if it annoys you so much.

In reply to girlclimber:

That's odd. I've done loads of fall practice at the Reach, and I know the senior instructors are cool with it.

The people posting "It's their wall, it's their rules, it's his job to keep people safe" etc. obviously haven't climbed there!

Sounds like a new staff member who wants to throw their weight around. If you could raise it with the wall that would be useful... make sure I'm not told off next time I'm there

In reply to girlclimber:
I've just messaged them asking for some clarity on this, whether it's a rule or whether the practice falls were being conducted in an unsafe way. I'd be surprised if that is a rule as its part of the activity we do and is part of their lead course.

In reply to girlclimber:

Take a deep breath, count to ten, and relax.

In reply to girlclimber:

That sucks. It can be very frustrating feeling you're being treated like a child whilst you're a teenager especially when you know what you're doing.

My advice is to drop the feeling annoyed as best you can. It's a complete waste of effort right now, you're chasing your own tail. Then next session if he's not there carry on as normal, if he is just get permission from someone else. If he challenges you point out that you've got permission and take it from there.

Failing that remind him that his mother's BMI is dangerously high and then question her attitude to birth control given present evidence of her inadequate skills in the correct techniques of modern child care.

(Don't do that last bit)

In reply to planetmarshall:

I just had a read of their rules, and it is not stated as banned.

It's up to them what they ban, but to avoid embarrassment and for simple good customer service, if a given practice is banned (an example being walls not permitting use of bowlines) it should be clearly stated in the rules you sign when you join.

In reply to Pete Dangerous:

A small number of walls do insist on you doing their lead course and not doing lead training yourself - perhaps they look at it that way?

It should be clearly stated, though.

In reply to zmv:


Nah, truly bad would be losing a limb or the death of a close relative or leaving the EU. What's happened here is at most a minor inconvenience.

In reply to girlclimber:

Do tell who the member of staff was? describe him/her?

The majority of the staff there are very cool, there are the odd few though who really do make you question why I spend my money going there.

I was recently told by a member of staff there, one I had never seen before, that my rope, lying on the floor after being pulled through from climbing, was a trip hazard and needed to be moved immediately... this was inbetween tieing back on to lead again.

I would ignore what they told you and keep falling, ive never been told I'm not allowed to fall there.

In reply to girlclimber:

i don't understand how they can regulate falling in a climbing wall..it's kind of the whole point. If you're not falling off, you're not trying hard enough :P

Just say you found the move to hard "oh no. I appear to have the pump" ...then let go

In reply to Removed User:


The compelling reason in my view is that management can sort these things out. Moaning online without trying to resolve it with the manager first is just a bit passive aggressive.

In reply to girlclimber:

Training to fall off ???
I thought we were training to stay on

In reply to girlclimber:

I was doing fall practise by missing clips and hit the wall with excessive noise, this upset the wall supervisor as I had not informed them what I intended to do, they thought for a second there had been an incident; therefore it's best to ask first if it's part of your routine and not what you normally see at the wall on a day to day basis.
I can understand why you are upset, as others have said, speak to the manager, it will probably come down to being ok when the wall is not very busy.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Absolutely not, it was literally three practice falls with no clips missed.

In reply to John Kelly:

Well, yes, but unfortunately that doesn't always happen....

In reply to climbwhenready:

I have raised it with the wall - I was told to email them, so I have done that, so hopefully some sort of conclusion will be reached...

In reply to sihills:
It was an older guy, haven't seen him around much. The rest of them are pretty awesome usually, I totally agree. And he did also them proceed to tell me off about how I was using my Gri Gri.

In reply to sihills:
>"Do tell who the member of staff was? describe him/her?"

You know him. The new guy with the dodgy facial hair who always has the two belay devices, a quickdraw and a pair of prussuks on his harness. The one that's been banging on about how just the name Three Pebble Slab gives away too much beta and how he on-sighted the eliminate avoiding all three pebbles.

In reply to Neil Williams:


No, they don't. They're relaxed about how you learn to climb.

In reply to Neil Williams:




Go on then. Can you name a single wall where you have to do their course before you can lead?

In reply to Oceanrower:


Cliffhanger in Vancouver used to ask you to demonstrate both taking and catching a lead fall before allowing you to lead. Not sure that counts as a 'course', though.

In reply to girlclimber:
I'd just carry on doing it and if questioned just say 'I fell off - it happens' if they then question why you keep falling off say 'I'm shit' - but say it with a smile.

In reply to girlclimber:

How many bolts up were you jumping off?

In reply to Toerag:

which line were you falling off on (I'm familiar with the centre)? if it was the overhanging walls, he probably doesn't have a case. If it was one of the flat panel sections, with its jugs and volumes, maybe that's his angle.

Personally, fall practice should be allowed so long as it's safely done.

In reply to girlclimber:

Life can be hard

In reply to girlclimber:

I know how you feel. Being told off at a wall is terrible. I hate it. There's a wall near me that seem to employ teenagers with proper attitude problems. Unfortunately it's one of the best (actually now MW is closed the only one) in the area.

I've been told off for spotting my 7 year old daughter (who is a very nervous un-confident climber) on a boulder slab. I've been told off for my son back climbing. It's not just a walk over and a polite word either. It's a proper scream from across the other side of the venue. Both my kids and me are really put off. I felt so riled that I could quite happily have belted one of the staff. It was ludicrous. Then they host competitions where I see parents physically holding their children on the wall and scoring them maximum points!....sorry, ranting now and totally off topic.

I think you have to put the telling off to one side, and try to look at the situation objectively. Was there a real or perceived danger to others? Was it actually busy enough to warrant what they were saying?

In reply to girlclimber:

Unless you were missing clips and taking massive falls I don't see the problem, if they offer lead climbing then they should expect lead falling and in turn practice of such as well.

Yes there is a danger to it, plenty of opportunity to slam into the wall etc, but climbing by its nature, even indoors is dangerous and I'm sure they gave you a form to sign stating as such when you gained membership of the wall.

I don't like the way a lot of walls seem to be going these days, the emphasis on pushing your grade and performance seems to be lost and its all about getting the punters through the door, having a nice little bit of cake in the cafe, pottering about on some mid grade climbs that don't much sweat, blood and swearing and its fun for all the family.

I understand that might be where the money is and walls are a business at the end of the day but if you lose the focus on pushing yourselves then climbing becomes almost pointless, you might as well just go to the gym (as long as its for a nice social and you don't work up to much of a sweat).

I'm not being elitist here either, it doesn't matter if you're training and pushing yourself to bag your first 8a or your first 6a. Even though it's just indoors it still boils down to that sprite of adventure, that desire to go where couldn't get before, to break new ground. If climbing loses that then what is the point?

In reply to Lord_ash2000:


The OP does, indeed, go to a 'gym'.

In reply to girlclimber:

Hopefully you get a sensible response. Fall practice is of course pretty key to overcoming lead fear.

Maybe see you guys down there on Sat

In reply to girlclimber:

Sounds like the guy who had a go at you is a total burke and doesn't know what he's on about. Three falls is nothing. One can take more than that dogging a single move on a route that's hard for you.

Of course if the wall doesn't like lead falls then logically they should ban leading altogether.

I would hope the wall not only apologises for spoiling your session but gives you some compensation, some free entries for example.

Good luck with it.

In reply to stp:

Hard to take comments seriously when you mix up "burke" and "berk" then go onto refer to someone who"doesn't know what he's on about."

Although I have sympathy with girlclimber and have personally experience of heavy handed climbing wall staff, I think there is now a tendency to name and shame in the heat of the moment rather than trying to resolve any issues with the wall management.

In reply to atrendall:

Muphry's Law strikes again. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you can't tell an adjective from an adverb eh?

In reply to atrendall:

Jerry Moffatt's spelling was appalling. He was dyslexic. By your logic we shouldn't take anything he has to say about climbing seriously either.

In reply to girlclimber:

I climb there regularly and have seen lead climbing courses, run by the Reach itself, and they were doing fall practise so it's not banned by policy.

I suspect just an over enthusiastic young staff member. (Was he small with a beard?)

Personally I don't get the whole fall practise thing though. Once you've fell once and the rope has caught you then that's it, you know it's safe! Practise staying on after that and if you do fall enjoy it.

In reply to girlclimber:
It's annoying when you are told off by a climbing wall, especially when you believe that you know better than the one telling you off. But this is the thing: they have a responsibility to ensure your safety and they happened to come to the decision on that day that what you were doing was dangerous. They might haver a different view next time, especially if after being challenged they look into it further.
It's difficult for the wall staff to judge as well - and then they don't want to lose authority by changing their mind.

My climbing partner was recently told off for belaying incorrectly. She wasn't, she has climbed for 30 years and knows what she is doing, but her belaying has a quirky look to it. She had to just take it on the chin.

I have to say your distress does not seem to be in proportion to the incident..?

In reply to girlclimber:

anyway, please post on here the eventual outcome of your correspondence with the Reach, I climb there too and was thinking about doing some fall practice, mainly for my belayer to practice holding a fall. So far, the Reach has seemed pretty laid back.

In reply to Oceanrower:
I'm sure I came across a UK one but I can't recall which. But most walls in the US and probably Australia if the latter even offer leading.

I didn't mean their course was mandatory i.e. you couldn't rock up with experience, just that you couldn't train leading yourself.

In reply to girlclimber:

Taking big lead falls over and over if very bad practice in my opinion. There's a group of climbers that do it at Spider and they set a bad example for everyone. As an instructor it scares the kids and puts them off progressing their lead climbing. I really don't understand why people do it. Who's scared of falling off indoors? Maybe get proper instruction in the first place and get a belayer who can dynamic belay properly so the leader isn't afraid of hurting themselves.

Too many people watch Neil Gresham clip drop technique and think it's appropriate. If you're climbing a low grade anyway maybe you just need to work on your climbing technique and strength and not just falling off. Its pretty moronic. Good on them I say. Lead climbing is scary enough for juniors without seeing adults taking big falls over and over and smashing into the wall cs their belayer has no concept of dynamic belaying.

In reply to stp:


Andy KP is the same it seems, I wouldn't want him writing my will but I'd be happy enough with him holding my ropes, as long as he didn't try and get me to climb some 1000m death route in a Canadian winter like those he seems to gravitate to.

In reply to girlclimber:

Were you using your own rope or theirs? If theirs, then they've got reason to moan.

You can always practice falls by taking on the Roof routes at The Reach

In reply to andy33:


Quite a lot of people.

In reply to RX-78:


Thought about dropping a weighted 'sac rather than being a crash test dummy for a learner belayer?

In reply to two_tapirs:



Yep, them routes are guaranteed to see me whipper falling and swinging like a pendulum!

In reply to girlclimber:

As many have said above, this is something you need to take up (and I see now have taken up) with the wall management.

You were highly annoyed with the member of staff, a natural reaction, but I think this may have been misplaced. He will just have been following the rules and procedures set down by the management. And if the centre procedures prohibit individual staff from making exceptions or compromises, then that is the line he should take.

You suggest he is not au fait with climbing norms and etiquette, but that's not really his fault either. If the management choose to employ someone who doesn't have the depth of understanding that you have of these things then that's perhaps the management's responsibility too. But if they spent more on the recruitment, retention and training of staff, we would all have to pay more to use the centre.

Martin

In reply to girlclimber:

Fall practice per se isn't prohibited at The Reach. Our floor walker Barry Kemp is an experienced climber & pretty laid back. Several regular Reach climbers had raised concerns to the floorwalker about what was happening before his intervention.

The issues were; the falls were long, close to other climbers & often very close to decking. Both of you were using the Gri-Gri as a hands free device & you were not clear about the need to keep hold of the dead rope. The lighter belayer was flying into the air close to other belayers & shock loading the anchor slings.

It was a busy evening & we would consider letting you practice your falls before 6pm on weekdays with safer use of your Gri-Gri.

Please let us know in advance so that we can ensure other climbers safety.

In reply to girlclimber:
Hmmmm........i d be suprised if I wasn't the only one who would like to hear the other side of the story . It sounds like people are generally happy with the staff at this wall . So I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt . I can think of several reasons why a) he asked you to stop and b) he (very possibly mistakenly ) said it was policy .
For a) he thought what you were doing looked unsafe , lots of scenarios , rather than saying outright , stop climbing and leave , he gave you the benefit of the doubt and said can you please stop doing that .
b) he was keeping an eye on ine it more other teams and didn't want to get sucked into a long discussion .
As somebody above said , telling adults off is difficult , they often don't take it well do they ?

In reply to The Reach Climbing Wall:

That seems more than reasonable and I never doubted the staff at The Reach for a minute. It's an excellent centre.

Who's Clay though?

In reply to Pete Dangerous:

Clay, presumably is her climbing partner

In reply to The Reach Climbing Wall:

I rescind my early comment about the staff member throwing their weight around. Sounds like we didn't get a balanced idea of the situation in the OP.

In reply to The Reach Climbing Wall:

>"The lighter belayer was flying into the air... & shock loading the anchor slings."

You might want to rethink that part.

In reply to JLS:


I read that as [ground] anchor slings, but I too could well be wrong...

In reply to More-On:

Ah ok, I guess you are correct and that must be how it was meant to be taken.

In reply to The Reach Climbing Wall:

Yeah, I know. It's the way it was said like we all knew him/her :p

In reply to girlclimber:

I was standing very close to you on Tuesday night and I think the reason you were asked to stop was probably that when you fell (from at least the 3rd clip) you nearly hit the floor.You stopped barely 2 feet from the floor surface.
So Im not surprised you were asked to stop your falling practice if you end up that close (and from that height)to hitting the deck.

In reply to The Reach Climbing Wall:


THIS!
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/gri-gri-unmasking-the-myths
youtube.com/watch?v=aSVchbjVKLE&
https://www.petzl.com/en/Sport/Belaying-with-the-GRIGRI?ProductName=GRIGRI-...

In reply to Martin Hore:

Barry is very experienced and knowledgeable as are the other floor walkers!

In reply to The Reach Climbing Wall:





Thank you. Good to get the other side and it does seem as if there were real reasons for your concerns.

In reply to andy33:

Completely agree.They were particularly loud and other climbers (especially new) Im sure would find this off putting! to say the least.
Watching Tuesday night there was a sense they were thrill seeking rather than just practising!

In reply to RX-78:

they are and are never too stern if they need to offer advice

In reply to stp:

hes not and he does

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

massive would be an understatement!

In reply to The Reach Climbing Wall:

Thanks for such a clear and calm response. Fall practice can mean anything from safe sensible training with the full knowledge of the wall and best done at quiet times to a combination of poor belaying (that grigri issue is all too common) missing clips (against most wall rules) feeding out slack to lengthen a fall, being rude to climbing neighbours (a deliberate fall next to someone leading is not cool) and failure to rest the rope between falls (read the manufacturers advice!).

In reply to girlclimber:

Sounds like OP is a moron, and, funnily enough, the instructor DOES know better.
It's almost like it's their job or something...

In reply to Tomtom:

The OP is a journalist; objectivity?

In reply to girlclimber:

Fear is a big blocker to progression but so is frustration. Might be your fault might be the instructors, might be 50 50. Chalk this one down to a lesson learned (even if you think you did nothing wrong) and move on rather than getting pissed at the situation. Get frustrated in a positive way at not being able to do the next route or not being able to push your grade rather than being negatively frustrated by a climbing wall you clearly enjoy, otherwise you'll quickly stop going there... Easy to say from an outside perspective but that's my two cents

In reply to Tomtom:


No. She was misinformed about the wall's policy. Her whole gripe was that fall practice was not allowed. In fact that turns out to be not the case.

Personally I still struggle to see the difference with practice falls and real ones. If anything I'd have thought the former were safer because at least they're expected.

In reply to stp:

but apparently she doesn't know how to belay safely!!

In reply to stp:


Raises an interesting aside; sounds like the staff members concerns about the practice falls and the associated belaying were genuine and well founded.
However, that should then be equally applicable to any other falls when leading, deliberate or not. So should he have been suggesting their technique wasn't suitable for lead climbing at all?

In reply to stp:

I would agree controlled drops are 'safer' than just falling off a move, but from the third clip? To within two feet of the floor? Hmm

In reply to The Reach Climbing Wall:

Wouldn't it have served the OP better in the long run, if your floor walker had shown them how to use a grigri safely, and belay appropriately, then encouraged them to do some modest falls to embed the lesson, as proper belay technique with soft catches does take practice? During this process they could have been made aware of their impact upon others without putting their noses out of joint.

In reply to More-On:

Yes, (ground) anchor slings

In reply to colin8ll:

1) is he qualified to teach that? Ie. If it goes tits up and they hurt themselves and sue, and point at this guy saying 'he told me to do it this way' would his and/ or their public/ professional liability insurance cover it? No.
2) have you ever tried to tell and adult how to do something that they are convinced they already know? Impossible to bypass bias. This girl clearly had a predetermined view of what and how she was doing stuff.
Maybe he did try to guide them, if it was truly dangerous and it was my ass on the line of just tell them to stop too.

In reply to girlclimber:

This is fun.

In reply to mark_wellin:

and let them carry on climbing when you know they are not demonstrating safe fall/belay practice? Would you not either have to ask them to stop climbing or try and correct their dangerous practice because you can't allow them to keep climbing on the condition that they don't fall off.

In reply to colin8ll:

Have another read mate.

In reply to AndrewDavid:



Given that these are the circumstances, I'm not surprised either. The OP won't be long for this world if she carries on in this vein.

Mick

In reply to kevin stephens:


And their favorite climbing mag is 'Summit'?! Effing hell!

In reply to Steve-J-E:


Possibly why your best on-sight is 4c.

In reply to Helen Bach:

Hahaha where did you get that from? Oh I see I've forgotten to update my profile so erm people like you can judge me on it. I must update it, I've been sport climbing twice now.

Seriously though I'm not scared of falling on lead, I'm scared of hitting the ground and no amount of chucking yourself off and being held by the rope will stop that!

In reply to Helen Bach:


I've never got it either - I get plenty of falling done whilst working routes without seeking them out.

Also, my personal experience is that I do not seem to have a general fear of falling, more a wariness of specific, unfamiliar falls.

I can go from one RP campaign that was replete with big falls which I eventually became inured to, and at the start of the next project find myself terrified and grabbing draws - until I have taken the ride a few times and subconsciously satisfied myself of the safety of that particular route.

As such, I doubt a few sessions of contrived fall practice would have any carry over to my actual routing.

In reply to kevin stephens:


And the staff noticed this but didn't tell her and let her carry on climbing for the rest of the session. Doesn't quite add up.

In reply to The Reach Climbing Wall:



It's not dangerous for a belayer to fly up into the air when belaying. It's actually a good thing and perfectly normal, particularly if the belayer is lighter than the climber. By getting pulled up in the air it means the fall is arrested slowly rather than suddenly.

Without this give in the system there is real danger of injury through a) the shock of stopping suddenly and b) slamming hard into the wall. I know as I've been injured both ways in the past like this.

The closeness to other belayers should be irrelevant since the belayer will always get pulled in towards the wall.

Not sure about the shock loading of the anchor sling either. If the belayer has already been lifted off the ground then most of the shock will have already been absorbed. The anchor slings should be in no danger of breaking and if that's the worry then they should be replaced with something stronger.

I would also add a fall close to the ground can be safer than a shorter fall that slams the climber into the wall. But such things are all a matter of personal judgement, and something that comes with experience and practice.

In reply to mike123:
just to clarify, i typed and posted my last post before the wall had replied and i think their response is clear and well put.

In reply to stp:


Or, just perhaps, misunderstood the wall's policy?

In reply to colin8ll:


And ignored the job he was supposed to be doing for half an hour? I'd be very surprised if he did not, in fact, point out their errors in the way they were belaying and - if you look above - the Reach have offered just such an opportunity to practice. And I bet there will be pretty close guidance at that session.

In reply to Helen Bach:

Mee - ow

In reply to stp:



Yes. We all know. Thank you for reminding us.


Other belayers stand close to the wall to lower/get the rope out of the way for their climbing partner. If someone is being lifted, they have very little control, it's not hard to imagine that they could hit someone else.

I stated the obvious for you there just so you were clear.


Depends on whether it was a fixed ground anchor or a sand bag. Either way, no-one likes their equipment repeatedly/unnecessarily worn out. But this was a little factor which added up to the bigger picture. Don't get sidetracked.


That's beside the point, they were doing fall practice. Why not do it higher up where is definitely safer?

In reply to stp:

What, never?


Sort of depends where the belayer is standing in relation to the others?

>The anchor slings should be in no danger of breaking and if that's the worry then they should be replaced with something stronger.

Where did you get the idea that there was a fear of slings breaking? It is more possible that the concern was loss of control by the belayer as they came slamming to a stop in mid-air. Or kicking someone next to them.....


You are conflating position of fall with distance of fall. In fact a fall close to the ground has, by its very nature, to be a short fall. Possibly very short as if it gets much longer you tend to go to hospital. And, in general, if you are practising falls from the third clip you are operating with pretty tight margins; you are better off much further up.

>But such things are all a matter of personal judgement, and something that comes with experience and practice.

I would also add that the experience of actually being there and seeing what was being done rather than simply reading this thread is probably the best way to come to an 'informed judgement'.



I wonder what Dave MacLeod would say.

In reply to Andy Say:

Why take an opportunity to learn when you can spend the time composing your internet rant instead? OP is a journalist, not a student after all.

You can pretty much guarantee that you will be believed for at least 50 posts before whoever you are slagging off catches on. The recreational outrage enthusiasts will be in no mood for facts by then anyway.

In reply to Andy Say:

There's always a risk of someone kicking you. Hopefully anyone violent should be immediately thrown out.

As for the slamming against a anchor sling, yes that's not ideal, but if you're lighter and someone falls what choice do you have? This is part of the reason I don't like ground anchors at climbing walls.

In reply to FreshSlate:

Properly adjust the length so that you don't "slam against" it, assuming the setup allows for that (and should).

In reply to Helen Bach:

I've never got the fall practise thing either?

Probably explains why my best onsight is only E6.

In reply to davidbeynon:


And it now appears that this journalist only gave us a somewhat slanted view of what happened.
How unusual.

In reply to The Reach Climbing Wall:

The only valid argument in that response is not being clear about holding the dead rope. The rest is bollocks, as everything in climbing, if you can't stand the heat don't be in the kitchen. Good on them taking falls close to decking and still going for it, that teaches you what is your limit in a control manner rather than trying to figure it out when you are outdoors gripped out of your mind. And what do you mean by shock loading the slings? No dynamic system allows for shock loading...

In reply to Helen Bach:

Meeeeeeeoooooooowwwwwwww

I'm sure that people used to climb far harder than 4c before the current fad for fall practice came into being.

In reply to Ramon Marin:

Ramon,

They weren't in a kitchen. They were in a 'gym'. And behaving in such a way that climbers around them were concerned enough to ask the wall management to do something about it.

'Good on them taking falls close to decking and still going for it, that teaches you what is your limit in a control manner'. Not sure where to start with that one, really. Presumably if they had hit the floor then that would have been even more 'good on them' for really finding their limit.

*But even if they were in a kitchen the chef has the right to ask someone who is obviously incompetent to desist from adding salt to the custard and stick to washing up?

In reply to girlclimber:

I am still wondering what exactly Dave MacLeod would say? I mean what WOULD he say?

Could someone contact one of his sponsors and organise a statement or a press conference or something?

Jeez people - look at the big issue here.

What would D-Mac say?

In reply to Ramon Marin:


Maybe you shouldn't be playing in someone else's kitchen if you aren't prepared to comply their requirements?

In reply to girlclimber:

Hey, girlclimber.

It might seem that after an initial knee-jerk 'pompous knee-jerk jobsworths' wave of sympathy you are now coming in for a bit of a kicking.

Don't let it get to you. I'd take up the offer from the Reach for some dedicated time if I were you. If you don't fancy that then maybe seek some guidance from someone with quite a bit of experience.

Pick through the thread for any learning points you can take away (gri-gri use?) and ignore the argy-bargy.

And get back out there climbing, you hear?

In reply to bouldery bits:





'Get to the fourth clip'.

In reply to Steve-J-E:


Try chucking yourself off without the rope then.

In reply to Ramon Marin:

>"And what do you mean by shock loading the slings? No dynamic system allows for shock loading..."

It would appear a static sling is used to connect the light weight belayer to an immovable ground anchor.
If there is slack in this sling to the ground, when the belayer is launched, it will be shock loaded.
It could be argued that such a system is not fit for purpose and counter argued that the belayer must keep the sling in tension at all times.

In reply to timjones:

True, in which case I choose someone else kitchen. But gyms are best place to do fall practice, can't argue with that

In reply to JLS:

Most climbers use a dynamic rope to avoid shock loading static elements in the system (gear, slings, harnesses etc). In this case, the rope and the movement of the belayer will provide the dynamic element, and none of the fixed gear will be anywhere near experiencing what could be described as "shock loading".

In reply to Andy Say:
You don't need to start anywhere. Falling off Ghost Train before clipping the tat will get you very close to the ground, so practise is very good. I came close to the ground when I skipped a bolt in Fighting Torque, luckily my belayer is very experienced, she neither slammed me with a tight rope and yet she kept me off the ground. Only practice does that. What's hard to understand about that?

In reply to girlclimber:

The British summer better sort itself out soon - there are way too many frustrated people on these forums!

In reply to Ramon Marin:

Congrats, Ramon. You've done some routes with nasty fall potential. And fell off them. Good effort. Have a look at the profile of the OP and then consider whether Ghost Train or Fighting Torque are a comparable context.

Someone tries to practise falling in an unsafe and uncontrolled manner, in a climbing wall NOT out on a crag, putting both themselves and others potentially at risk and someone steps in to ask them to stop. They then offer an alternative session for that practise.

What's hard to understand about that?

In reply to girlclimber:

Anyway. To sum the thread up.

'Lead fall practice prohibited at the Reach climbing gym??'

No. Apparently it isn't. But practise that is seen as incompetent and potentially dangerous is 'discouraged'.

I'm off out now. The sun is shining.

In reply to MarkJH:

>"none of the fixed gear will be anywhere near experiencing what could be described as "shock loading""

I'm not so sure about that. When I've see light belayers launched by a falling partner it has looked pretty violent. Bringing even just 50kg moving at speed to a dead stop with a sling is going to generate some big forces.

In reply to Andy Say:

I wonder what Dave MacLeod would say.

I am Dave MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod. I was born in 1978 in the city of Glasgow on the banks of the Clyde. And I am immortal.

In reply to JLS:


Actually, you may be right... I hadn't really considered the momentum of the belayer (which, as you suggest, would be isolated from the rope). Sorry. Would be interesting to know what sort of load that can generate.

In reply to FactorXXX:



There can only be one!!!!

In reply to bouldery bits:

So who is the Kurgan?

In reply to Helen Bach:


Good god no, that sounds too much like bouldering

In reply to davidbeynon:

So who is the Kurgan?

The Kurgan is evil, twisted and has perverse pleasures.
So, he must be a caver...

In reply to Ramon Marin:

You nearly decked from fighting torque? You did it wrong.

In reply to girlclimber:
This thread now needs girl climber to come back and defend herself!

In reply to Aztec Bar:

It's a bit self defeating slagging off the staff at your favourite climbing centre on a public forum. In her situation I'd be embarrassed to go back and the next nearest isn't that near.

In reply to Andy Say:

?

Nothing to do with climbing hard, just two examples...

In reply to mark_wellin:

Skipping bolts... as said in the post...

In reply to girlclimber:

Just shout 'Watch me' or 'Take' before jumping off.

In reply to Ramon Marin:


If you're into fall practice I guess they are the best place but maybe it would be politic to do your practice at quieter times.

In reply to Ramon Marin:

Yeah I got that, thanks.
What I mean is, that route doesn't need you to skip clips. The crux is after the 3rd or 4th bolt which you clip off a jug. To nearly deck would mean you ran out the easier section for no reason and/ or you belayer had too much slack out. I just didn't see why you were boast about nearly decking, especially on a safe sport route which means you were doing something wrong, rather than being 'extreeeme'.
Aaaaanyway, falling to within a foot of the floor is definitely not a good idea, least of all while practicing to correct your subjective view that falling is unsafe, as you're making it objectively unsafe by flirting with the floor.

In reply to Baron Weasel:


Interesting that Dave Mac states that you need to train yourself out of this kind of thing and just get used to falling and trusting the system

In reply to Neil Williams:


How do you do that - keep it tight so you're never pulled up or so loose that it never comes tight? Genuinely wondering.

In reply to The Green Giant:


Does sound like everyone understands this. Hence the reminder.


It doesn't matter that they have no control. The direction they're pulled in is guaranteed. It's towards the first bolt and it's impossible they'll be pulled anywhere else. If someone is between a belayer and the first bolt then I'd wonder what they were doing there and they'd be responsible for any mishaps not the belayer (who should, after all, be looking upward).


I agree that falling higher is safer. But of course that won't teach you much about holding falls lower down. One could argue that since these are the most risky it's even more important to practice these.

There are different ways of doing fall practice. One method, called the clip-drop method and which was featured on a video on here as I recall, involves clipping each bolt then dropping off. In other words you fall off on every bolt as you go up the wall.

In reply to Andy Say:


What I said was 'if'.


OK I see that the statement is ambiguous. I meant a fall that ends close to the ground, which can of course be any theoretically any distance, rather than one that starts close to the ground.



Yes well clearly there were at least two people who were there who have different opinions on the matter.

And perhaps the climber's and belayer's judgement might have more validity than someone simply watching? But then again perhaps not as the climbers were, after all, merely women?

In reply to stp:

What?
Seriously, what? How in holy hell have you made this into a sexist row?! Are you mental? Have you gone mental?

Quite staggering, unless you are genuinely a sexist tw*t.

And FYI Clay is a dude, not that their sexes make any difference

In reply to JLS:

Why the four dislikes to my earlier (12:15 Fri) post?
I didn't think there was anything particularly contentious about it. Genuinely don't understand what there is to dislike?

In reply to FreshSlate:


Well if you think that the belayer will be accelerating towards the wall, increasing in speed the further they move at first, you don't need the belayer to be secured absolutely to one spot you just don't want the belayer moving to far and building up too much speed/energy.
Keeping the sling within a few inches of being taut should be fine.
Personally I'm not keen on anchoring the belayer down as this limits paying out by stepping forward and makes it difficult to keep the rope out of the way of the climber on routes that wander about, sand bags are better IMO.

In reply to stp:

Starting at the third, or better the fourth bolt....

In reply to stp:


I fall off at almost every bolt whenever I climb at Leeds Wall. Gratifying to know that I was inadvertently practicing an advanced technique (that might raise me above 4c?), rather than just being rubbish.

In reply to gethin_allen:



Agree that sanbags are better. I think moving forward a few inches and then hitting the limit of the tether doesn't sound comfortable and is of questionable benefit to the climber. It would give the belayer some room to move around... but not much.

Relatively taut should be the way to go if anchored to something static, you just sacrafice some of the dynamic element.

Ground anchors make little sense to me where sandbags are available unless preventing an objective hazard such as cracking ones head on a low short roof (not usually found indoors).

In reply to FreshSlate:

Keep it tight. Of course that prevents a dynamic belay, so it's not all upside.

In reply to stp:

Ho Ho Ho . Since I assume 'Clay' is short for Clayton, a typical merchant bankers name, I am actually engaged in spiteful class war.....

There weren't just two people actually there though, were there? 'Several' made a complaint, one witness has posted here and an experienced member of staff evaluated what they were doing as potentially dangerous.

In reply to JLS:




And four dislikes for a post asking why you got four dislikes. This is FUN.

(it's raining....)

In reply to Neil Williams:

Depends on the belay device and the skill of the belayer. Not that that relates to the case in point.

In reply to girlclimber:



I decided not to look at this thread again after Andy s succinct summing up above . But hey it's Saturday morning, it's raining , the kids are watching tv , etc, etc,...
I find myself wondering that if , after reading all the replies above , you have any further thoughts on this ?
I think I'm probably twice your age and have to report that having been farting around with this outdoors malarky for sometime I still, on occasion <clears throat > , make a knob of myself . I find the best thing to do ( there is an Americanism that I refuse to use ) is to own up and apologise . As I read your post and then the subsequent replies , you have been unnecessarily rude on the internet to a member of staff at your local wall . If you are really into climbing then this is a very bad idea.
What you need to do here is zip your girl power onesie up and either a) apologise or b) defend the statement I've highlighted above .

Footnote : I did wonder about deleting the bit about the girl power onesie but to be honest in all the years I've been climbing I reckon I've only climbed with a couple of people who didn't engage in almost constant "banter " .

In reply to girlclimber:

lol - still raining then

In reply to girlclimber:

How many falls do you need? If I'm going for something hard I might take flight 3 or 4 times. No one complains. It's what the bolts are for.

In reply to girlclimber:

Is this still going?

In reply to Andy Say:
Well, at least I've now got five likes for a bit of balance.
I shall sleep easy now knowing only some people hate me.

P.s. I disliked your post only because I'm not allowed to join in the fun of disliking my own.


P.p.s. Right that's it! All you dislikers, I've Tim at NCIS tracking down your IP's right now. Expect a drone strike within the hour!

In reply to The Reach Climbing Wall:
>>Both of you were using the Gri-Gri as a hands free device & you were not clear about the need to keep hold of the dead rope.

Sprung....ha ha!

I hope I never have to get a belay from the OP.

In reply to girlclimber:

You don't seem to be joining in the fun of this thread!

In reply to girlclimber:

Not really going the way you thought it would, is it?

JW

In reply to Andy Say:

one woman one man
man dropped the woman(girl climber)from above the 3rd clip to 2 feet form the ground.

In reply to AndrewDavid:



Chickens! I've seen folk actually touch down on the stretch of the rope and then bounce back up. (On/Off Top Sail on Birchen's actually but I wont name names).

This is what happens when you lob trying to clip the FIFTH bolt: youtube.com/watch?v=FLilKfDBWxc&

Mind you he is a total nutter.....

In reply to johncook and John W:

Let's not gloat too much, eh? 'girlclimber' had her rant and it backfired. She will be embarrassed.

In reply to Andy Say:

Not gloating, simply observing.

JW

In reply to girlclimber:

So...
The Reach comes out of this looking very good indeed. Very calm measured response.

The unknown climber who was belaying next to the muppets deserves a special mention for providing some unbiased independent input straight from the frontline.


And the OP has just reduced her list of potential climbing partners by more or less the sum total of people reading this thread.

In reply to girlclimber:
Can i ask what people think of this?

I was doing the same this weekend at the reach with a friend to practice lead belaying. But I tied into one of the Auto-Belays and clipped some of the bolts with draws. That way you can practice falling in total safety.

In reply to MrWayne:

Might work for lead belaying practice but falling on an autobelay is nothing like falling on lead.

In reply to MrWayne:

Sounds like a recipe for a clusterf*ck.
If you aren't confident that your belayer will catch you, s/he is surplus to requirements, no?
At the very least you should have someone that knows what they're doing next to the novice lead belayer, holding the dead rope and watching their technique until they are confident. And I definitely wouldn't be practicing falls with them until they are. Baby steps.

In reply to MrWayne:

Don't think I would use an auto for that, but leading with a ghost top rope is a perfectly reasonable way to teach lead belaying.

In reply to Neil Williams:
I'm sure it's a perfectly legit way to teach lead belaying, but redundant as a way to practice lead falls.

In reply to MrWayne:

To properly allow a decent lead fall when you are giving a top-rope backup to a novice lead belayer and climber, you often need to throw out a worrying amount of slack (can be several metres or more) or else you end up catching the fall instead of the lead belayer. If you fall off while attached to an autobelay, the autobelay will catch you long before the belayer does. The only time it is interesting is to pretend-catch falls close to the ground. Try clipping the second bolt above your head, dropping the clip and falling off ***WHILE ON AN AUTOBELAY*** with a belayer prepped to pretend-catch (i.e. no cheeky taking in of the rope after you jump off). See if you reach the floor before the lead rope goes tight... which will be normally for an above-the-head second clip drop. The moral of the story should be obvious...

Great for practising leading and lead belaying safely, completely useless for practising taking/catching lead falls.

In reply to MrWayne:


There's so much upward pull from an auto-belay (well, those I've used at least) that the 'feeling' of leading would be completely negated by it. In other words, it wouldn't replicate the experience of leading.

Oh dear, I see my posts have been zapped. Probably for the best. Having re-read the OP I decided she's not my type and cancelled the caterers - bit too needy and attention-seeking. Don't get me wrong I definitely would. Be belayed by her that is. Despite being fairly experienced, my technique has been founded wanting. Belaying technique that is. Its a different world indoors

In reply to shark:

That's cos they were really really shite sexist jokes.

In reply to shark:


In this fantasy word of yours does she get any say in her destiny? I can certainly see why your previous posts got zapped, if they were anything like this latest. Please try to respect and not objectify women.

In reply to girlclimber:

Hmmm, maybe you need to find a new climbing wall. Our local wall includes lead fall practice as part of the basic "learn to lead" course and you won't be signed off without it!!!

In reply to springfall2008:

I would advise reading the above 175 posts (well maybe not all of them).

In reply to shark:


Yes. If only there was a UK climbing web-site where you could be free to sprout misogynist bollocks in the knowledge that 100% of active participants were male and sympathetic with your point of view. Oh wait....

In reply to Helen Bach:


Have you ever posted anything that isn't typified by bile filled anger and incorrect generalisations?

I really do feel sorry for you. Your world is obviously a very bleak place.

In reply to Goucho:


I did once, but regretted it immediately. Pretty sure there are plenty of posters on here just as negative. But maybe they aren't female....

In reply to Helen Bach:


Don't be so modest. You know full well that there's more chance of Roy Chubby Brown telling a none masoginistic joke, than there being anyone else on here as negative as you.

In reply to Goucho:


Do you really feel sorry for her, or are you just being a sanctimonious tit?

In reply to planetmarshall:


The answer is probably yes on both counts.

But don't interpret that as me being remotely interested in your opinion on anything.

In reply to Goucho:


Not familiar with the term highlighted in bold above. A quick Google brought up this link as the first matching result:

https://onsizzle.com/i/im-not-masoginistic-would-be-all-for-a-ghostbusters-...

Is that what you had in mind?

I've deliberately resisted the temptation (honest!) to look at your profile, but have bet myself a chocolate hob-nob that you are an "older" guy for whom women must only be of the fluffy bunny variety. I don't feel sad for you so much as view you with disdain.

In reply to Helen Bach:





Oh look, another angry post filled with generalisations.

You've proved my initial point yet again.

In reply to Goucho:



Ha ha. Just looked at your profile. Now enjoying hob-nob!

Odd though, you don't attack my actual posts - just what you perceive to be my general attitude. Interesting. Why is that do you think?

In reply to Helen Bach:



Read back through your posts so far this year, and you might see a theme running through them, which might explain things?

However, I never had you down as a hob-nob person. Tequila and Rivets yes, but not hob-nobs!

In reply to Goucho:

Will you two just shag already and get it over with?

In reply to Goucho:



Hi Goucho, Shark's posts were disrespectful, sexist and generally out of order, which is why they were pulled, and HB is also on the money with the description of the typical active UKC demographic. (Anger filled bile aside)

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

She was actually referring to UKB (I believe), where shark normally lurks.

In reply to Helen Bach:


Helen (Sally?), I'm not sure you're right. I've never met Goucho and indeed haven't the slightest idea who he is (ironic as our paths seem to have crossed - or at least come very close - so many times, over the years). However, in hundreds of posts on here, I've never known him look down on people and, God knows, if anyone could, he could. But he doesn't.

Mick

In reply to mark_wellin:


I'll head back there - tail between my legs . I thought a moment of comedy was appropriate given the pious black balling of someone for less than perfect belaying. Clearly the type of humour and timing was a misjudgement. Apologies to those genuinely offended although forgiveness generally seems in short supply around here. Finally sorry you've taken flak Groucho on my account.

In reply to Helen Bach:





You should read his post about his missus kicking the shit out of an abusive litter lout to disavow you of that particular notion.

In reply to shark:


Not from me. Thanks, Simon.

All best wishes,

Mick

In reply to shark:


No problem Simon

In reply to Mick Ward:

Bless you kind sir

In reply to Yanis Nayu:


Ha, ha. I was thinking exactly the same.

For completness, here's Mrs Goucho being all fluffy bunny http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=617248

In reply to shark:

Appreciate the sincere apology (has that ever happened in the Internet before?)

I'm sure it was hilarious when you said it in your head.

In reply to shark:


Oh.

In reply to girlclimber:

Mods this isn't doing anything positive for the reach, the op has disappeared and that Helen person is throwing her toys around again.

Archive/delete maybe?

In reply to girlclimber:

I am reading this again and I am too angry.
Angry at you for reacting so hysterically in this letter.
You talk about having a bag attached but you dont mention that when you were being belayed you nearly hit the floor.
I dont think your climbing partner(clay) has any understanding of safe belaying.
I got a real sense it was for thrills rather than for a sensible and safe falling practice session given your hysterical reaction when you nearly hit the floor.
Stop showing off and get a grip

In reply to andrewmcleod:
Yea I get the autobelay will catch it before a lead fall, but it does give you an idea of when the rope would've tightened up and to me i thought it was still useful for climber and belayer to practice with the autobelay.

First time lead belaying, i think its a decent idea unless you have a third person to backup or belay top rope for security.

In reply to girlclimber:

I always felt people were showing off when they did this.

It was very 'look at me' I'm not saying you were doing it for this reason.

It also seemed quite dangerous and why should the place open itself up to any law suits in case some idiot does hurt themselves.

Nothing can prepare you when you miss a hold and fall as your not ready for it.

In reply to bail123:


Eh??? I'd be hoping my belayer was paying attention. Note to self: never climb with you.

In reply to Helen Bach:

I think he means the experience of it, not hitting the floor.

In reply to Neil Williams:


I'd kind of think experiencing it frequently would prepare you for it.

In reply to bail123:


Apart from fall practice, by many accounts.

In reply to bail123:

ermmm you need to read 9/10 climbers

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

My point is it's one thing to fall when you want, in the safety of a indoor climbing wall with solid hangers and a belayer who is ready for your fall.

It's really not the same as I described as being out of the blue.

I'm sorry if my spelling and grammar is bit rubbish but I'm dyslexic, even with spell check sometimes it recommends the wrong words. Spell check doesn't help with poor grammar or confused sentence structure.

In reply to bail123:

The only time I've fallen without any warning was before I'd clipped in anyway. Foothold broke and down I went. I'm not going to practice that anywhere. Just hope for the best when it happens

In reply to bail123:

No, it's not the same, but training anything repeatedly leads to muscle-memory, so when you do fall unexpectedly it becomes second nature to fall (and for your belayer to catch the fall) in the way which you learned whilst practicing. Otherwise, why does anyone train for anything?

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Well I personally wouldn't do and wouldn't recommend other to do it over and over.

However if folks want to do they should get permission of the climbing wall staff. I'd also say that you should ask other people who are climbing as especially in smaller climbing walls people doing it can get in the way of others.

Thinking about it perhaps one fall might be sensible. So that people can get sense that ropes and bolted anchors are safe this may lead people to have confidence in the whole set up working.

There you go I've thought about it and have changed my mind slightly! :--D

In reply to girlclimber:

All my posts have a dislike or 2.

That hurts my feelings

In reply to bail123:

Not guilty.

In reply to bail123:

I don't think fall practice is a bad thing per se; doing it like a tw*t at a venue where someone else may be held liable is.

In reply to girlclimber:

Four days have passed since your unfair public rant at the Reach was exposed as being unreasonable, backed up by independent witnesses. The response from the Reach was fair and measured, they even offered to let you practice at a quieter time.

At the very least I think you owe the Reach and their instructor an apology on this thread.

Haven't seen it yet.........

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:


He doesn't need to. The OP can quote it to him as her practice is based on what Dave says.

In reply to Trangia:


Actually its nearer 25 days now; the OP hasn't been back. And I don't think they will after the roasting handed out.

In reply to Andy Say:

Looks like she's just gone climbing: http://girlclimber.com/

In reply to Trangia:


How do we define online bullying, again?

In reply to Mike Highbury:


Not by suggesting someone apologise for a baseless rant against a good climbing centre who were doing their job.

In reply to Mike Highbury:

Don't be bloody ridiculous

JW