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The fathers of two of the British soldiers killed in the Blair-Bush War in Iraq are hoping to bring a private prosecution against TB, with the help of McCue & Partners, and are looking to raise £150,000.
They're well on the way to reaching this target, but pledges can still be made at
https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/chilcot/
They're well on the way to reaching this target, but pledges can still be made at
https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/chilcot/
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In reply to streapadair:
Why. What has he done that is worse than any other previous prime minister? They have the final word in sending the unfortunates to their deaths and plenty have done before.
Why. What has he done that is worse than any other previous prime minister? They have the final word in sending the unfortunates to their deaths and plenty have done before.
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In reply to Big Ger:
Just like Tony then, but I don't want to prosecute you.
> I'm good for a few quid.
Just like Tony then, but I don't want to prosecute you.
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In reply to Big Ger:
Since you're in a generous mood today...
http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/brexitjustice
Since you're in a generous mood today...
http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/brexitjustice
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In reply to streapadair:
Lemming and Dave, if you reckon that Blair was in no way culpable for sending our troops into an illegal war as a favour to GWB, and that the subsequent hell on earth in the Middle East is just one of those things, well, so be it.
Lemming and Dave, if you reckon that Blair was in no way culpable for sending our troops into an illegal war as a favour to GWB, and that the subsequent hell on earth in the Middle East is just one of those things, well, so be it.
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In reply to streapadair:
I hadn't realised that the middle east was an oasis of peace prior to Blair's involvement. I must have blinked.
> Lemming and Dave, if you reckon that Blair was in no way culpable for sending our troops into an illegal war as a favour to GWB, and that the subsequent hell on earth in the Middle East is just one of those things, well, so be it.
I hadn't realised that the middle east was an oasis of peace prior to Blair's involvement. I must have blinked.
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In reply to streapadair:
>you reckon that Blair was culpable for sending our troops into an illegal war as a favour to GWB, and subsequent hell on earth in the Middle East
That seems to be your position. Why is Bush not being singled out in the same way as Tony?
>you reckon that Blair was culpable for sending our troops into an illegal war as a favour to GWB, and subsequent hell on earth in the Middle East
That seems to be your position. Why is Bush not being singled out in the same way as Tony?
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In reply to streapadair:
So far, it would seem that the collective wisdom of ukc decrees that Blair is in the clear because:
unspecified british prime ministers have also been involved in unspecified acts that may be at least as bad before;
foreign politicians outside of UK jurisdiction were also involved;
the wider middle east, including Iraq and lands outwith its boundaries, were not up to western standards of garden party civility (ignoring Ireland and Yugoslavia).
So that's all right then.
So far, it would seem that the collective wisdom of ukc decrees that Blair is in the clear because:
unspecified british prime ministers have also been involved in unspecified acts that may be at least as bad before;
foreign politicians outside of UK jurisdiction were also involved;
the wider middle east, including Iraq and lands outwith its boundaries, were not up to western standards of garden party civility (ignoring Ireland and Yugoslavia).
So that's all right then.
Post edited at 00:49
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In reply to Dave the Rave:
I'm glad. I've reformed, I haven't committed illegal genocide in weeks....
I'm glad. I've reformed, I haven't committed illegal genocide in weeks....
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In reply to off-duty:
It wasn't, but there weren't a million or more refugees fleeing to Europe then either, which suggests things may have become a tad worse.
> I hadn't realised that the middle east was an oasis of peace prior to Blair's involvement. I must have blinked.
It wasn't, but there weren't a million or more refugees fleeing to Europe then either, which suggests things may have become a tad worse.
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In reply to aln:
I can hardly answer for the US judiciary, but you're correct, Bush jnr was equally or more culpable, motivated it would seem by pique that a decade after the 1st war against Iraq Saddam was still in power while daddy was history.
> Why is Bush not being singled out in the same way as Tony?
I can hardly answer for the US judiciary, but you're correct, Bush jnr was equally or more culpable, motivated it would seem by pique that a decade after the 1st war against Iraq Saddam was still in power while daddy was history.
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In reply to streapadair:
10 years (?) after Blair left office. In Europe, only Sweden took significant numbers of Iraqi refugees from the Iraq war, most stayed in the region. If you want to blame last year's refugee crisis on Blair, I doubt anyone will be able to persuade you otherwise, but I think that just shows how people's frustrations with almost everything have been personalised onto the figure of Blair to an utterly ridiculous extent.
> It wasn't, but there weren't a million or more refugees fleeing to Europe then either,
10 years (?) after Blair left office. In Europe, only Sweden took significant numbers of Iraqi refugees from the Iraq war, most stayed in the region. If you want to blame last year's refugee crisis on Blair, I doubt anyone will be able to persuade you otherwise, but I think that just shows how people's frustrations with almost everything have been personalised onto the figure of Blair to an utterly ridiculous extent.
Post edited at 06:38
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In reply to aln:
George Dubbya is exempted on the grounds of diminished responsibility, ie insanity.
> Why is Bush not being singled out in the same way as Tony?
George Dubbya is exempted on the grounds of diminished responsibility, ie insanity.
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In reply to Removed User:
It's not all right but what, in particular, is the accusation and what law do you think Blair has broken?
And it isn't a war crime, before you start.
> So that's all right then.
It's not all right but what, in particular, is the accusation and what law do you think Blair has broken?
And it isn't a war crime, before you start.
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In reply to TobyA:
But there's a proven link between prisons like Abu Ghraib and the foundation of ISIS, the torture that we and the US allowed to go on there discredited our stance as kindly middle east police officer. So quite possible yes Tony may have had a massive hand in the shit we're dealing with now. That and disbanding the Bathe party, who were the civil servants in Iraq.
> 10 years (?) after Blair left office. In Europe, only Sweden took significant numbers of Iraqi refugees from the Iraq war, most stayed in the region. If you want to blame last year's refugee crisis on Blair, I doubt anyone will be able to persuade you otherwise, but I think that just shows how people's frustrations with almost everything have been personalised onto the figure of Blair to an utterly ridiculous extent.
But there's a proven link between prisons like Abu Ghraib and the foundation of ISIS, the torture that we and the US allowed to go on there discredited our stance as kindly middle east police officer. So quite possible yes Tony may have had a massive hand in the shit we're dealing with now. That and disbanding the Bathe party, who were the civil servants in Iraq.
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In reply to Removed User:
No it's not all right but the Lemming has a point, this will ultimately go nowhere and that money will just become a new Porsche in the garage under McCue & Partners. MSF, the Red Cross or Liberty can put the few quid people might be tempted to donate to much better use.
jk
> So that's all right then.
No it's not all right but the Lemming has a point, this will ultimately go nowhere and that money will just become a new Porsche in the garage under McCue & Partners. MSF, the Red Cross or Liberty can put the few quid people might be tempted to donate to much better use.
jk
Post edited at 09:52
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
Properly answering that question is precisely the point of this crowdfunding campaign.
> It's not all right but what, in particular, is the accusation and what law do you think Blair has broken?
Properly answering that question is precisely the point of this crowdfunding campaign.
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In reply to deepsoup:
Rather expensive way to get the question. Where is the money to get the answer to come from?
> Properly answering that question is precisely the point of this crowdfunding campaign.
Rather expensive way to get the question. Where is the money to get the answer to come from?
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In reply to KevinD:
Dunno. Same place I imagine. When/if the time comes I'll be happy enough to chip in a couple of quid again. If it turns out a million or so people feel the same way I don't suppose it'll be much of a problem.
Dunno. Same place I imagine. When/if the time comes I'll be happy enough to chip in a couple of quid again. If it turns out a million or so people feel the same way I don't suppose it'll be much of a problem.
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In reply to streapadair:
I think that the parents of the soldiers killed are really just lashing out, looking for someone tangible to blame. Sure, I feel very sorry for them but no amount of legal hand-wringing and retrospection is going to bring back their kids.
Soldiers sign up in the knowledge that this involves carrying out the instructions of others, who sometimes get things wrong, nomatter how 'good' their intentions at the time. I realise this may seem harsh, but sometimes life is.
In short, I don't think it will help whatsoever.
I think that the parents of the soldiers killed are really just lashing out, looking for someone tangible to blame. Sure, I feel very sorry for them but no amount of legal hand-wringing and retrospection is going to bring back their kids.
Soldiers sign up in the knowledge that this involves carrying out the instructions of others, who sometimes get things wrong, nomatter how 'good' their intentions at the time. I realise this may seem harsh, but sometimes life is.
In short, I don't think it will help whatsoever.
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In reply to krikoman:
And the support for ISIS by Syria, where we refused to get involved.
And the lure of Western ideals like democracy - hence partly the Arab spring.
And the Sunni-shia split, hence much of the barbarity.
And the foundation of Israel (thatcaoways features!) leading to some elements of the proxy war currently on going in Syria
And the promotion of religious groups on Afghanistan by the US to combat the Russian invasion.
And the Russian involvement in propping up Assad...
etc etc...
So a straight line between shit that we did then and shit that is happening now isn't a very accurate depiction - as comforting as it might be to want a nice cause and effect story with an easily defined villain.
> But there's a proven link between prisons like Abu Ghraib and the foundation of ISIS, the torture that we and the US allowed to go on there discredited our stance as kindly middle east police officer. So quite possible yes Tony may have had a massive hand in the shit we're dealing with now. That and disbanding the Bathe party, who were the civil servants in Iraq.
And the support for ISIS by Syria, where we refused to get involved.
And the lure of Western ideals like democracy - hence partly the Arab spring.
And the Sunni-shia split, hence much of the barbarity.
And the foundation of Israel (thatcaoways features!) leading to some elements of the proxy war currently on going in Syria
And the promotion of religious groups on Afghanistan by the US to combat the Russian invasion.
And the Russian involvement in propping up Assad...
etc etc...
So a straight line between shit that we did then and shit that is happening now isn't a very accurate depiction - as comforting as it might be to want a nice cause and effect story with an easily defined villain.
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In reply to krikoman:
Abu Ghraib was a US run prison (barely, in the sense that like everything else post-invasion they ran it appallingly badly), I'm not sure what the UK could have a done really, but all the same, ISIS came out of the civil war - it just seems ridiculous to me that getting Tony Blair in court is what so many seem to think will somehow resolve all that, or bring peace or justice to anyone.
I take it your "kindly police officer" comment was a joke, because short of a few Gulf royal families I don't think anyone in the Mid East ever thought that.
> But there's a proven link between prisons like Abu Ghraib and the foundation of ISIS, the torture that we and the US allowed to go on there discredited our stance as kindly middle east police officer.
Abu Ghraib was a US run prison (barely, in the sense that like everything else post-invasion they ran it appallingly badly), I'm not sure what the UK could have a done really, but all the same, ISIS came out of the civil war - it just seems ridiculous to me that getting Tony Blair in court is what so many seem to think will somehow resolve all that, or bring peace or justice to anyone.
I take it your "kindly police officer" comment was a joke, because short of a few Gulf royal families I don't think anyone in the Mid East ever thought that.
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In reply to aln:
Bliar is our shame, the Americans have different views.
> Why is Bush not being singled out in the same way as Tony?
Bliar is our shame, the Americans have different views.
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In reply to Big Ger:
Well bush did apologise back in 2008 and say it was his biggest mistake. .........
Well bush did apologise back in 2008 and say it was his biggest mistake. .........
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In reply to jkarran:
Yes. The Crown Prosecution Service can stop private prosecutions by taking them over and discontinuing them, in which case only the lawyers benefit.
> ...this will ultimately go nowhere...
Yes. The Crown Prosecution Service can stop private prosecutions by taking them over and discontinuing them, in which case only the lawyers benefit.
In reply to off-duty:
I didn't say it was straight line, and of course there are many inputs to get where we are today. Our intelligence services were involved at Abu Ghraib, but chose not to speak out against what was happening there. There are well established links to high up ISIS members and Abu Ghraib, when you look what went on there and how the "rules" were broken, it's not hard to see some people might want revenge.
I'm not blaming Tony Blair for all the ills of the world, but he played a part in the joint enterprise of Iraq.
We kidnapped a bloke and served him up to Gaddafi breaking all sorts of international laws then, so he's not entirely innocent, is he?
@ TonyA
I think our forces lost a lot of respect in the Iraq and Afghan wars, rightly or wrongly we had a reputation for fair play and "gentlemanly" conduct. We lost that reputation in these two conflicts, probably because we were too close to the Americans.
> So a straight line between shit that we did then and shit that is happening now isn't a very accurate depiction - as comforting as it might be to want a nice cause and effect story with an easily defined villain.
I didn't say it was straight line, and of course there are many inputs to get where we are today. Our intelligence services were involved at Abu Ghraib, but chose not to speak out against what was happening there. There are well established links to high up ISIS members and Abu Ghraib, when you look what went on there and how the "rules" were broken, it's not hard to see some people might want revenge.
I'm not blaming Tony Blair for all the ills of the world, but he played a part in the joint enterprise of Iraq.
We kidnapped a bloke and served him up to Gaddafi breaking all sorts of international laws then, so he's not entirely innocent, is he?
@ TonyA
I think our forces lost a lot of respect in the Iraq and Afghan wars, rightly or wrongly we had a reputation for fair play and "gentlemanly" conduct. We lost that reputation in these two conflicts, probably because we were too close to the Americans.
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