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http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/muslims-refuse-to-bury-france-priest-...
I never imagined this might happen, it sends a strong message given the importance of the Muslim preparations before burial.
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In reply to Timmd:
Never really thought about it. It would be interesting to know how many of the other terrorists have had the correct religious observance at their funerals.
It could well be a turning point.
Without the correct preparation they probably can't go to heaven so it might stop a few people.
At least until someone decides that it's against their human rights and the European Court rules in their favour.
Never really thought about it. It would be interesting to know how many of the other terrorists have had the correct religious observance at their funerals.
It could well be a turning point.
Without the correct preparation they probably can't go to heaven so it might stop a few people.
At least until someone decides that it's against their human rights and the European Court rules in their favour.
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In reply to Dax H:
I almost think you've possibly absorbed some EU negativity from the UK's Murdoch owned press?
'Criminal can't be deported due to human rights says the EU Court!'
I almost think you've possibly absorbed some EU negativity from the UK's Murdoch owned press?
'Criminal can't be deported due to human rights says the EU Court!'
Post edited at 18:14
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In reply to Dax H:
Heaven doesn't exist.
To my mind, anybody who persists in terrorising people - and I'm not just looking at Muslims here - on the basis of that 'promise' ought to just f*ck off.
> Without the correct preparation they probably can't go to heaven so it might stop a few people.
Heaven doesn't exist.
To my mind, anybody who persists in terrorising people - and I'm not just looking at Muslims here - on the basis of that 'promise' ought to just f*ck off.
Post edited at 18:23
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In reply to Dax H:
You were doing alright until that ridiculous and unfounded nonsense.
> At least until someone decides that it's against their human rights and the European Court rules in their favour.
You were doing alright until that ridiculous and unfounded nonsense.
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In reply to Timmd:
You have to feel some compassion for the family of the killer a funeral isn't for the deceased it's for the family to say goodbye to one they loved, no matter how bad they must have loved him as a son or friend.
You have to feel some compassion for the family of the killer a funeral isn't for the deceased it's for the family to say goodbye to one they loved, no matter how bad they must have loved him as a son or friend.
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In reply to robert-hutton:
I know I should, but I'm really not ready for that yet.
> You have to feel some compassion for the family of the killer a funeral isn't for the deceased it's for the family to say goodbye to one they loved, no matter how bad they must have loved him as a son or friend.
I know I should, but I'm really not ready for that yet.
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In reply to robert-hutton:
Yes but there aren't, apparently, many/any disincentives for these killers so it's for the best they are refused.
> You have to feel some compassion for the family of the killer a funeral isn't for the deceased it's for the family to say goodbye to one they loved, no matter how bad they must have loved him as a son or friend.
Yes but there aren't, apparently, many/any disincentives for these killers so it's for the best they are refused.
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In reply to Timmd:
More religious nonsense then, have they no compassion?
> I never imagined this might happen, it sends a strong message given the importance of the Muslim preparations before burial.
More religious nonsense then, have they no compassion?
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In reply to Timmd:
This is heartening;
This is heartening;
> Muslims took a stand against the recent barbaric attacks carried out in the name of Islam by showing up to Sunday Mass in churches and cathedrals in France and Italy. A few dozen Muslims gathered at the towering Gothic cathedral in Rouen, near Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray where the 85-year-old Rev Jacques Hamel had his throat slit by two teenage Islamic extremists on Tuesday. 'We are very moved by the presence of our Muslim friends and I believe it is a courageous act that they did by coming to us,' Dominique Lebrun, the archbishop of Rouen, said after the service.
> Some of the Muslims sat in the front row, across from the altar where Adel Kermiche and Abdelmalik Petitjean, both 19, filmed themselves performing an Islamic sermon before slitting the elderly priest's throat. Among the parishioners was one of the nuns who was briefly taken hostage at Hamel's church when he was killed. She joined her fellow Catholics in turning to shake hands or embrace the Muslim churchgoers after the service. Outside the church, a group of Muslims were applauded when they unfurled a banner: 'Love for all. Hate for none.' Churchgoer Jacqueline Prevot said the attendance of Muslims was 'a magnificent gesture.'
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In reply to robert-hutton:
And so it starts. Justification to why he should have a funeral following the beliefs of his people and securing his place in the mythical place called heaven.
> You have to feel some compassion for the family of the killer a funeral isn't for the deceased it's for the family to say goodbye to one they loved, no matter how bad they must have loved him as a son or friend.
And so it starts. Justification to why he should have a funeral following the beliefs of his people and securing his place in the mythical place called heaven.
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In reply to Timmd:
What did the killers' families do about preventing their sons from embracing terrorism?
What did the killers' families do about preventing their sons from embracing terrorism?
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In reply to Dax H:
I am not making any justification for the scumbag or for so called heaven to open its doors for him, only for his hopfully blame free family to remember him as a son.
I am not making any justification for the scumbag or for so called heaven to open its doors for him, only for his hopfully blame free family to remember him as a son.
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In reply to Trangia:
Hard to know in any specific case but it does always seem that these murderers were "gentle loving people who never gave any hint of extremism" etc etc. Doesn't seem very credible to me.
> Did they know?
Hard to know in any specific case but it does always seem that these murderers were "gentle loving people who never gave any hint of extremism" etc etc. Doesn't seem very credible to me.
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In reply to robert-hutton:
Don't be disheartened by the downvotes, you're completely correct. It's like a doctor refusing to treat someone because they don't believe in the same things the doctor does.
Don't be disheartened by the downvotes, you're completely correct. It's like a doctor refusing to treat someone because they don't believe in the same things the doctor does.
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In reply to robert-hutton:
I don't know about Islam, but that's not the Christian view of funerals, where it is a chance to pray for the deceased so that they will reach heaven. If Islam is the same, and if the relatives are devout, they may not feel that it's a chance to say goodbye.
Funerals being an event for the family is a common modern secular view of funerals - I'm just pointing out it's not the only one!
> You have to feel some compassion for the family of the killer a funeral isn't for the deceased it's for the family to say goodbye to one they loved, no matter how bad they must have loved him as a son or friend.
I don't know about Islam, but that's not the Christian view of funerals, where it is a chance to pray for the deceased so that they will reach heaven. If Islam is the same, and if the relatives are devout, they may not feel that it's a chance to say goodbye.
Funerals being an event for the family is a common modern secular view of funerals - I'm just pointing out it's not the only one!
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In reply to Dax H:
It's a notable gesture, but I doubt it'll make any difference. ISIS already regard 90% of Muslims as heretics and apostates for not following the ISIS variant of Islam so such attitudes would, to ISIS, be expected and would not matter.
> Without the correct preparation they probably can't go to heaven so it might stop a few people.
It's a notable gesture, but I doubt it'll make any difference. ISIS already regard 90% of Muslims as heretics and apostates for not following the ISIS variant of Islam so such attitudes would, to ISIS, be expected and would not matter.
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In reply to MG:
That's similar to what people said about Harold Shipman, remember? How lovely he was.
There's a lot of potential for concealment (and from that deception) within human nature.
We can't know what these people are like as family members etc.
If you're assuming that there are signs which people don't act upon, does that imply some collective responsibility for the events which follow, amongst the people who know them too?
It can seem like you're blaming more people than those who kill innocent people?
> Hard to know in any specific case but it does always seem that these murderers were "gentle loving people who never gave any hint of extremism" etc etc. Doesn't seem very credible to me.
That's similar to what people said about Harold Shipman, remember? How lovely he was.
There's a lot of potential for concealment (and from that deception) within human nature.
We can't know what these people are like as family members etc.
If you're assuming that there are signs which people don't act upon, does that imply some collective responsibility for the events which follow, amongst the people who know them too?
It can seem like you're blaming more people than those who kill innocent people?
Post edited at 11:43
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In reply to climbwhenready:
The fact that ceremonial funerals still exist in a secular/atheist population merely illustrates the enduring importance of the ritual for those left behind when someone dies. There's no reason to suppose a religious funeral serves a different basic need, whether you believe it's a final event or not the death of a loved one is still a major event and ritual appears to be important in allowing the living to get on with their lives whatever they believe.
jk
> Funerals being an event for the family is a common modern secular view of funerals - I'm just pointing out it's not the only one!
The fact that ceremonial funerals still exist in a secular/atheist population merely illustrates the enduring importance of the ritual for those left behind when someone dies. There's no reason to suppose a religious funeral serves a different basic need, whether you believe it's a final event or not the death of a loved one is still a major event and ritual appears to be important in allowing the living to get on with their lives whatever they believe.
jk
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In reply to Timmd:
I suspect there is a lot of denial by family members going on for various reasons but a key one with Islamic terrorism being the taboo on criticising Islam making people wilfully blind to those becoming extremists.
I suspect there is a lot of denial by family members going on for various reasons but a key one with Islamic terrorism being the taboo on criticising Islam making people wilfully blind to those becoming extremists.
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In reply to MG:
It's definitely a huge thing to come to terms with, that a family member has the potential for extremism. For most people, killing others in a terror attack is the last thing one would expect a family member to do. I think I probably put it down to plain human nature more than you.
With a lot of these people being people's sons in their 20's, it must be a huge shock after so many years of putting love and nurturing into a child whom one has seen start to grow into a young adult, with how parents can have so many aspirations for their children.
It's definitely a huge thing to come to terms with, that a family member has the potential for extremism. For most people, killing others in a terror attack is the last thing one would expect a family member to do. I think I probably put it down to plain human nature more than you.
With a lot of these people being people's sons in their 20's, it must be a huge shock after so many years of putting love and nurturing into a child whom one has seen start to grow into a young adult, with how parents can have so many aspirations for their children.
Post edited at 12:15
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In reply to Timmd:
That's because you don't keep up with this stuff or show any interest in it.
The same thing happened after Boston, twice, the Sydney Cafe siege, Hebdo attacks, San Berdino, Toulouse etc.
It's typical You Ain't No Muslim stuff, denial and muslim identity politics.
> I never imagined this might happen,
That's because you don't keep up with this stuff or show any interest in it.
The same thing happened after Boston, twice, the Sydney Cafe siege, Hebdo attacks, San Berdino, Toulouse etc.
It's typical You Ain't No Muslim stuff, denial and muslim identity politics.
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In reply to winhill:
Why do you call it denial?
Edit: By the way, who is the senior Tory party member you've mentioned who has advocated Jihad?
Thanks.
> That's because you don't keep up with this stuff or show any interest in it.
> The same thing happened after Boston, twice, the Sydney Cafe siege, Hebdo attacks, San Berdino, Toulouse etc.
> It's typical You Ain't No Muslim stuff, denial and muslim identity politics.
Why do you call it denial?
Edit: By the way, who is the senior Tory party member you've mentioned who has advocated Jihad?
Thanks.
Post edited at 13:00
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In reply to Timmd:
Come on! It's classic no true Scotsman stuff
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
> Why do you call it denial?
Come on! It's classic no true Scotsman stuff
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
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In reply to MG:
I think it could be helpful to keep things focused on aspects of the religion being discussed (and any details related), or else things may start to become rather abstract.
I know there is text about Jihad mentioned in the Koran, but I understand it to be specific to times of war, with Islamism being a world view which uses the situation of some Muslims as a means of convincing people that The West is at war with Islam, meaning that Jihad is the next step to take, when in reality (putting aside the morality of attacking what one would call civilians) the majority of the world's population of Muslims isn't being attacked or marginalised by the West in any kind of way, and with there being more than one interpretation of Jihad in the first place, in it being a spiritual-approach one can take in every day life, in trying to be a good human being.
Which is why I'm asking about the use of the term denial.
I think it could be helpful to keep things focused on aspects of the religion being discussed (and any details related), or else things may start to become rather abstract.
I know there is text about Jihad mentioned in the Koran, but I understand it to be specific to times of war, with Islamism being a world view which uses the situation of some Muslims as a means of convincing people that The West is at war with Islam, meaning that Jihad is the next step to take, when in reality (putting aside the morality of attacking what one would call civilians) the majority of the world's population of Muslims isn't being attacked or marginalised by the West in any kind of way, and with there being more than one interpretation of Jihad in the first place, in it being a spiritual-approach one can take in every day life, in trying to be a good human being.
Which is why I'm asking about the use of the term denial.
Post edited at 13:23
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In reply to Timmd:
I am sure if you try hard you can make the link from the general to the specific in this case.
I am sure if you try hard you can make the link from the general to the specific in this case.
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In reply to Timmd:
Because it is "this is nothing to do with Islam" (untrue), rather than:
"This is an extreme version of Islam which we reject and repudiate" (much more honest).
> Why do you call it denial?
Because it is "this is nothing to do with Islam" (untrue), rather than:
"This is an extreme version of Islam which we reject and repudiate" (much more honest).
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In reply to MG:
I 'like' how you often seem to revert to the same rather condescending tone when replying to my posts.
Kindly desist, or else don't expect any respect in response (which seems fair enough and straight forward).
Many thanks
> I am sure if you try hard you can make the link from the general to the specific in this case.
I 'like' how you often seem to revert to the same rather condescending tone when replying to my posts.
Kindly desist, or else don't expect any respect in response (which seems fair enough and straight forward).
Many thanks
Post edited at 13:26
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In reply to Timmd:
A little difficult to avoid when you do your butter won't melt in my mouth, deliberately avoiding the issue routine.
> I 'like' how you often seem to revert to the same rather condescending tone when replying to my posts.
A little difficult to avoid when you do your butter won't melt in my mouth, deliberately avoiding the issue routine.
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In reply to Removed User:
> It's like a doctor refusing to treat someone because they don't believe in the same things the doctor does.
It really isn't
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In reply to MG:
Ah, feck off.
If you're going to be like that there's no point.
> A little difficult to avoid when you do your butter won't melt in my mouth, deliberately avoiding the issue routine.
Ah, feck off.
If you're going to be like that there's no point.
Post edited at 13:37
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In reply to Timmd:
Are you really unable to discern that avoiding handling Islamic terrorists is a denial of the fact they are Muslim to avoid criticising Islam?
The "argument" is
Islam is perfect>This person has done something bad> therefore they are not Muslim>therefore I don't have to criticise Islam and acknowledge it is imperfect. As above, no true Scotsman stuff.
Are you really unable to discern that avoiding handling Islamic terrorists is a denial of the fact they are Muslim to avoid criticising Islam?
The "argument" is
Islam is perfect>This person has done something bad> therefore they are not Muslim>therefore I don't have to criticise Islam and acknowledge it is imperfect. As above, no true Scotsman stuff.
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In reply to Rigid Raider:
Who knows? Most very probably not you.
> What did the killers' families do about preventing their sons from embracing terrorism?
Who knows? Most very probably not you.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
How about
This is an incorrect and unacceptable perversion of Islam which we reject and repudiate
How about
This is an incorrect and unacceptable perversion of Islam which we reject and repudiate
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In reply to marsbar:
The trouble with going down the ``incorrect'' line is that it buys into ISIS's game. They reject all the more moderate versions as incorrect and heretical. Religious groups getting into theological disputes as to which versions are ``correct'' is not all that helpful, since there is no fact of such matters.
[And if one were judging ``correctness'' by faithfulness to the founding writings, ISIS could do quite a good job of arguing for its correctness.]
> This is an incorrect and unacceptable perversion of Islam which we reject and repudiate
The trouble with going down the ``incorrect'' line is that it buys into ISIS's game. They reject all the more moderate versions as incorrect and heretical. Religious groups getting into theological disputes as to which versions are ``correct'' is not all that helpful, since there is no fact of such matters.
[And if one were judging ``correctness'' by faithfulness to the founding writings, ISIS could do quite a good job of arguing for its correctness.]
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In reply to robert-hutton:
Israel don't seem to care about this, and we don't do much to stop it, when they bulldoze the family home of any terrorist.
> You have to feel some compassion for the family of the killer a funeral isn't for the deceased it's for the family to say goodbye to one they loved, no matter how bad they must have loved him as a son or friend.
Israel don't seem to care about this, and we don't do much to stop it, when they bulldoze the family home of any terrorist.
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In reply to MG:
Obviously this is without ANY evidence at all, but don't let that stop you blaming everyone around him, eh?
> I suspect there is a lot of denial by family members going on for various reasons but a key one with Islamic terrorism being the taboo on criticising Islam making people wilfully blind to those becoming extremists.
Obviously this is without ANY evidence at all, but don't let that stop you blaming everyone around him, eh?
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In reply to krikoman:
There's endless evidence that criticism of Islam is taboo (try it in Pakistan, or Saudi if you don't believe me and see what happens). There is also plenty of evidence that families ignore signs of extremism, for example believing members are going "on holiday" with their children to the Turkish-Syrian border.
There's endless evidence that criticism of Islam is taboo (try it in Pakistan, or Saudi if you don't believe me and see what happens). There is also plenty of evidence that families ignore signs of extremism, for example believing members are going "on holiday" with their children to the Turkish-Syrian border.
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In reply to Big Ger:
Check out Douglas Murray's latest blog. He points out that this 'Muslim Good News Story' is due to the actions of Ahamadiyya muslims. You'll be aware that they're the most persecuted of the muslim 'denominations', both systematically and in law in some muslim countries, and more insidiously (but still sometimes fatally) in places like the UK. Regrettably, their genuinely peace-loving, 'other' embracing, diversity accepting ways are not necessarily broadly representative of the wider faith.
> This is heartening;
Check out Douglas Murray's latest blog. He points out that this 'Muslim Good News Story' is due to the actions of Ahamadiyya muslims. You'll be aware that they're the most persecuted of the muslim 'denominations', both systematically and in law in some muslim countries, and more insidiously (but still sometimes fatally) in places like the UK. Regrettably, their genuinely peace-loving, 'other' embracing, diversity accepting ways are not necessarily broadly representative of the wider faith.
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