UKC

Having a closer connection to yesterday's Emirates crash than others, I find it shocking the footage that has emerged from inside the plane of people getting their bags from the lockers before leaving despite the plane being missing a wing and rapidly filling with smoke. Some passengers only getting off seconds before one of the explosions

My boss was on board the plane, and was delayed leaving the plane due to this, and as a result was one of the passengers injured (thankfully only minor contusions after being blown to the floor by the explosion).

Surely its time something is done about this? We've seen it time and again, normally with much more minor crashes. I doubt the people that do this are really doing it consciously, and I'm not sure prosecuting people for it would help at all, but perhaps they should look at locking overhead lockers etc during landing/take-off & emergency situations?

In reply to balmybaldwin:

Sorry to hear your boss was injured, thankfully not too badly.

A central locking system (activated by crew) sounds like a good idea to me, though not for bags passengers shove under the seats in front of them, though perhaps that's less of a problem as they're smaller?

In reply to balmybaldwin:

Professionally informed (for the main part) discussion here about this:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/582445-emirates-b777-gear-collapse-dxb.h...

FWIW, I agree completely - total t*ats because they endanger everyone. So you can improve aircraft safety all you like (look at the spate of accidents in the last few years where large numbers of pax have escaped because of advances in technology etc) - but you can't improve on the levels of stupidity of the self-loading freight. Seen it myself on many occasions: awful behaviour.

In reply to balmybaldwin:

Possibly filming an evacuation on your mobile phone is almost as irresponsible as trying to get down the slide with your hand luggage?

Be prepared and get seats close to the exits whenever possible.

In reply to balmybaldwin:



It may just waste even more time as people try to open locked lockers.... Unfortunately, in highly stressful situations people revert to known physical behaviours; it is why airline pilots(for example) train repeatedly to deal with common emergencies rather than just reading about what to do. In this case, every other time those passengers had stood up to leave a plane, they picked up their bag. Hardly surprising that they did the same when their ability to think straight was compromised.

The only way to stop it would be for passengers to train for evacuations, and that just isn't going to happen.

In reply to MarkJH:

Really good answer Mark, well in touch with reality.

With regards being next to an exit, you are looking at small theoretical gains, you might gain as much from sitting in the back row with your seat belt on. In plane accidents everyone seems to live or everyone dies with not much in between.

In reply to MarkJH:

It's a good point. I can imagine if I was in a situation like that that I too would try and get my luggage - not because it was important to me, but it would be subconsciously a way of distancing myself from the situation, and me convincing myself that everything was under control. 'If I am calm, and act like nothing untoward is happening, then everything will be OK.' Folk are funny like that.

If it becomes a real problem (and let's face it, thankfully it isn't) then the solution will lie in recognising that this very real, automatic and human response.

In reply to Dan Arkle:

I think even if the central locked luggage would work (i.e. people wouldn't try and retrieve their luggage), the cost of such a system, and the maintainence - would be a massive ratio to the amount of lives saved. That money and expenditure would be better invested in for example, sustainable aircraft fuel, which would probably save thousands of times more lives that way, than to prepare for a specific type of aircraft crash (aircraft crashes are already phenomenally rare).

In reply to MarkJH:



Bang on the money. Going off topic slightly, There is no substitute for good training and as soon as training becomes about "ticking boxes" you have lost the initiative(which seems to be the case these days in a variety of different industries). You need to train, and train realistically, not just relying on muscle memory.

"A professional should not expect to rise to an occasion but to fall to their lowest form of training."

But yea, considering the same motions people do for getting off and onto a plane involves standing up and getting luggage...could indicate the reasoning, but then thats when the Aircrew need to start getting onto it and directing people firmly. Maybe even some criminal prosecutions afterwards for people who deliberately endanger life in such a way.

Call me paranoid but i always keep everything important on my person, and everything in my hand luggage isn't so much important, and can be ditched. I hate people that arse about on flights, kit everywhere, no clue with whats going on, where anything is.

People just need to wake up and think about whats more important, their lives and the lives of others or material possessions.

In reply to balmybaldwin:

Amazingly, it could be that people didn't think it was so serious when they stood up. The cabin crew on the BA777 that crashed at Heathrow were apparently amazed to see the landing gear ripped off when they left the plane. The crash landing was apparently not significantly worse than a bad/hard landing.

There may also be people on the Emirates flight carrying a large proportion of their personal wealth in hand baggage (migrant labour, folks travelling for private medical treatment or business guys with cash/gold.)They probably value it a lot more than average joe travelling with a credit card and an iPad. They are also probably uninsured.

It's not good, but it's pretty amazing that a 250tonne plane crashed with gear up, the cabin remained intact and everyone got out relatively safely. In 1985, 55 people died in 5mins at Manchester in a plane that hadn't even left the ground.

In reply to balmybaldwin:

And for those thinking hard and worrying what to do in an emergency, just consider :

Boeing 777 has been in service since 1995.
It comprises 3 million parts from 900 different suppliers.
About 1300 planes have been built.
Over 5 million flights flown.

One was lost by presumed pilot suicide (MH370).
One was shot out of the sky by a Russian missile (MH17)

Total number of fatalities in other crashes : 3

Those folks at Boeing deserve some serious credit.

In reply to sbc23:

That's a damn good record. And Statistically it's the safest method of transport. It's just when it goes wrong, it's goes mega wrong.

It's like all the families and knobbers gobbing off about the Offshore helicopters, the things have got pretty good safety records, and you get paid a mint to go offshore partly for the "danger". People just knee jerking.

In reply to Bootrock:

Also, keep your shoes on until you are in the air, and put them back on before coming in to land. If anything goes wrong at 30,000ft then footwear don't help, but getting out of a crashed or burning plane in bare feet....

Having been in an aborted landing in a jumbo (1995) I always keep my lap belt on if I'm not walking around as well. Amazing how much stuff flies around the cabin when you bounce.

b

In reply to ben b:

Of those 3 fatalities on 777, 2 were attributed to not wearing a seatbelt on crash landing. Two Chinese students were ejected from the fuselage as it broke up and at least one was run over by a fire truck.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I probably would too, but not for the same reasons.

As hand luggage is likely to contain the things you'll need soon after exiting the plane, I can see the sense in grabbing it. Mine, for example, contains my wallet, passport and phone, which would be very handy, but uncomfortable to sit with during a long flight. It may also contain essential medication for some people that might be very hard to replace in the immediate aftermath of a crash abroad. I rely on some medication that is available over the counter in the UK, but may require a prescription elsewhere, let alone working out the local equivalent to even ask for. I carry a few days worth in my hand luggage in case my hold luggage goes AWOL.

Also, if you're about to be stranded in the middle of nowhere for a few hours while awaiting rescue, then things like food, water and clothing contained in hand luggage might make the difference between life and death if you survive the crash. Less of a reason if you're come down in the middle of civilization.

None of which necessarily condones people's actions, but does help to understand it.

In reply to MarkJH:



Marks' pretty much on the money here.

Only solutions I can think of would be
1/ have a central storage point for everyone, preferably at the front so a member of crew can block the way so people know they are not to try and retrieve it (possibly with an automatic door/locking device too)
Problem with that is huge HUGE retrofit, then muppets trying to get to it during take off and landing (it's bad enough having half the plane stand up the moment the wheels hit the ground to grab their bag, or trying to fetch their ipad while the plane is readying for take off. Possibly would make it more dangerous during other circumstances and cause more deaths.

2/ no, or minimal hand luggage. Everything in the hold except necessities like medicines.
Can't see that going down well with people though! I can understand on long flights, but on an hour and half flight I've seen people bringing most of their house to keep them entertained (bit more understandable with kids)

In reply to Ian_Cognito:
interesting comment on that pilots' thread linked to is that airlines incentivise people to bring massive "on the limit" suitacases into the cabin by penalising them for bringing hold bags. If you were charged for cabin bags that needed to go in the overhead lockers and hold bags were free then you would see a lot less of these giant trolley bags being hauled into the aircraft and more people with a small "essentials" bag that fits under the seat in front.

In reply to andy:

Definitely an element of that - excess baggage charges are obscene and a good money spinner for the airline.

Another reason, though, is why pay for hold baggage when you don't have to - I've done several weekend city breaks and overnight business trips with a couple of changes of clothes in a day sack to avoid having to hang around for my bag to arrive on the carousel.

In reply to balmybaldwin:

What is the popular fascination with dreaming up new rules and designs for commercial aircraft in the immediate aftermath of accidents? Why don't we do the same for road accidents? You never see anyone campaigning to have 10 year old cars recalled and re-engineered to higher safety standards or discussions over whether it'd be better to fit the curtain airbags in new seats or replacement door skins yet that would almost certainly save far more lives at comparable cost to modifying the world's airliner fleet. That's not even the low hanging fruit from a road safety perspective.
jk

In reply to Ian_Cognito:



Which is what cabin bags should be for, a quick change of clothes for an overnight or a weekend - but if you had to pay a tenner to bring your day sack on board but it'd be free if you put it in the hold, then I suspect quite a few of the massive suitcases you see people trying to squeeze into lockers (which end up being fifteen rows back down the aircraft, causing delays to getting off because people are squeezing up and down the aisle) would be in the hold.

In reply to jkarran:

That's not really true. Car safety today is much better than 10 years ago vastly better than 25 years ago. Much of these changes have come in response to accidents and public pressure.

In reply to andy:


Some of us "full length" people use that space for feet and legs!

In reply to MG:


+1

Use a bum bag for essentials and documents, just pull it round in front when sitting.

In reply to ben b:


think I'm a stealth 'prepper'. Wear non flammable clothing, count the number of rows to the nearest exit and have a torch in your hand luggage, between your feet. Torch won't help on the plane, but it might stop you being run over once out on an airfield.

In reply to andy:

or just reduce cabin baggage threshold to that of a small daysack or briefcase size, with a 5kg limit.

Or, at check in passengers have to prove they can lift their cabin bag above their head without it toppling on the people around them. Perhaps 10 clean & jerks/presses would be sufficient.

In reply to summo:

Bl**dy hell, that's not being prepared, that's being paranoid!

In reply to MG:


I'm talking about the response of the general public as represented by threads like this, not about how regulators and engineering teams have responded. I'm just wondering why air accidents seem to capture the imagination and spur creativity in a way that others don't? Perhaps because there's little we can do practically (eg choosing a 'safer' airline, near impossible given how good they all* are in real terms) we dream up the impractical. With cars we can and have voted with our wallets for safer designs because they're clearly differentiated from the less safe models.

*considering airlines opperating out of the uk, not some mountain field in the wilds of africa/asia
jk

In reply to jkarran:

I think its the discrete nature of air accidents. The same happens with train crashes etc. Cars crash all the time and it just becomes background noise.

In reply to summo:
Just take your inflatable life jacket.. that's got a light on it already, and has the advantage of being bright yellow

In reply to summo:

Quite a few airlines have a limit of c7kg but it doesn't seem to stop elderly ladies dragging massive hard-shell cases that must be millimetres inside the size limit onto planes.

Jet2 let you check your hand baggage in for nothing, so on bike trips (when you're going to have to wait for your bike bag) I pack a decent sized hold bag but then check it in and just carry my ipad and travel docs through - easier at security.

In reply to andy:

Wizz Air allow a small cabin bag free, but charge more for a large one than a piece of hold baggage.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I count rows, and flick the seat belt to remind me it isn't a car one. Allegedly people have died because they went with "instinct" and tried to release it like a car one.

In reply to andy:

Quite a few airlines have a limit of c7kg but it doesn't seem to stop elderly ladies dragging massive hard-shell cases that must be millimetres inside the size limit onto planes.

Can't believe a climber is criticising someone for abusing the hand luggage rules...

In reply to balmybaldwin:

There was an interesting documentary a year or so ago about what sort of person survives a disaster, it was interesting about planes and the expected behaviour patterns of the public;

Trying to leave the same way they came in.
Collecting luggage and personal effects despite being told to leave it.
Queuing to get out.

Those that survived were basically selfish bastards who climbed over seats and knocked others out the way in order to get out. You only have to look at how slowly people organise themselves getting on to see what would happen in trying to get off fast.
I remember seeing a special forces demonstration evacuating an aircraft with hijackers aboard. They literally threw people around in the aircraft and down the slides.

The fact that no passenger died in the incident the other day was just good luck on the timing, they behaved as expected.

In reply to Neil Williams:

'Allegedly people have died because they went with "instinct" and tried to release it like a car one.'

Er ... how would anyone know? They were dead.

In reply to FactorXXX:


I've never really understood the desperation to "beat the system" - so I've never been one for trying to squeeze clobber into a cabin bag - probably because I've usually got skis or a bike bag with me.

My "airline luggage whinge" is generally not being allowed to take CO2 cylinders in my bike bag, given that every bloody life jacket on the plane contains one...

In reply to andy:



^^^This^^^

In reply to andy:


because a flight can be £5 but then have a £40 additional fee for a hold bag....

Going back to size of 'hand baggage' I am amazed at the limits having recently flown and weighed ours. My 8 day holiday hold back was only just over the hand baggage limit in weight and that included the tent poles , pegs and awning poles. I struggle to see how people reach the weight limit for hand baggage given the dimensions limit yet so many do...they must be carrying lead bars.
Maybe they should change hand baggage to 2kg and have a sliding scale on hold bags instead of 1 price for all.

In reply to Aztec Bar:








Survival of the fittest. I won't be waiting in some que for death. There are some situations where pirate rules apply.

But that raises a good point, the aircrew need to start getting their act together and acting firm with the passengers and start throwing them around if needs be.
When the aircrew are decent and get a grasp of the situation it can have a very different effect rather than if they all start flapping.

I remember helping out on a flight when a young lady took a header and collapsed in the aisle and the Hostess, as nice as she was, had a bit of a flap on.

In reply to andy:


Because any equipment fitted to the aircraft will have been through some pretty draconian testing and approval regime. Your cut price cylinders could be from anywhere, even home made.

In reply to ben b:


Me too. I was once on-board a 747, somewhere between Taipei and Bangkok, when it suddenly hit some heavy turbulence that wasn't supposed to be there. I witnessed several people, including cabin crew, get thrown to their arse: some of them, having first hit the ceiling. Fortunately, I was buckled-in.

In reply to GrahamD:

Well actually you're allowed to bring them under IATA rules - just that check-in folk and baggage scanners don't seem to have to abide by them.

In reply to Scarab9:


So it's £45. Which isn't much for a flight, eh?

In reply to Rick Graham:



Does that then make it your baw bag ?

In reply to Jim C:

I believe "fanny pack" is the accepted term by our colonial friends.

In reply to balmybaldwin:

Plane? I ain't getting on no plane! Fool!
Never, not ever, no, not a chance, no. Why? What for? No. You can't make me!

In reply to Dave the Rave:

That reminds me. They put my boss up in a hotel for a night an he had to get on another plane home the next day. Not sure I'd be keen (irrational i know)

In reply to Oceanrower:


Only when it is worn to the rear.

Strange lot these Yanks!

In reply to andy:

I've never really understood the desperation to "beat the system" - so I've never been one for trying to squeeze clobber into a cabin bag - probably because I've usually got skis or a bike bag with me.

Probably depends on how much stuff you are carrying in total.
Staying in a hotel and clipping bolts, then you shouldn't have a problem with the Hold Allowance.
However, add tents and big racks, etc. then the weight soon adds up and the extra cost could be a deal breaker to some. Hence why people 'abuse' the hand luggage system. Think BA (maybe others?) have a maximum limit of 32kg, which isn't really a massive amount. After that, it is considered freight and is shipped separately.
Maybe the Olympics and 'Climb Britain' will get climbing gear recognised as Sporting Equipment...

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

perhaps, but it takes no real effort and time, to stack the odds a little more in your favour, not matter how unlikely an event is? I should add I have no phobia of flying etc.. but I'd rather be the pax that's alert, than the person who got hammered in the airport and passed out against the window before the plane had even left the ground.

In reply to balmybaldwin:

When I come to power anyone who takes their luggage off the plane will be politely told by the emergency services to go and put it back.

In reply to summo:
Minimum prep I do is count seats to exit so I can climb over the top and avoid the queues while people t#at about waiting. (I am one of the previously mentioned selfish bastards who has more chance of survival)

In reply to Aztec Bar:

I would have no quarms climbing over seats and people to get to the exit if they are dilly dallying. What is the quote from the simpsons?

"Harder you push quicker you go!"

In reply to Bootrock:
Look at this:

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/14515243.Survivors_of_helicopter_crash_that...

You might like to ask why I point this out. Then I'll tell you. Knobber yourself.

in fact you've taken my breath away with your stupidity

In reply to wercat:
And? Your point is?

They took the job. They get paid the big bucks. They knew the risks.


No mechanical fault with the Helo. And it's easy for armchair warriors to comment on the pilots.

Gob off all you want, I spent some time in the oil, and I know the attitudes of the guys that work in it, you get paid the big bucks for a reason.

Don't like the risk? Don't take the job. Simple as.

In reply to Bootrock:

And you die. I lost a good mate in the 1986 chinook crash. Someone I knew in Applecross days told me how he was one of the last handful to escape the Piper Alpha disaster.

George Allison was a health and safety specialist latterly and I know his widow as he was my sisters widower. A down to earth man who'd do anything for anyone, including taking on my nephew and niece as his own. He had serious concerns over that type of helicopter from his own offshore experience and his untimely death left my nephew and niece without a mother or stepfather. You are the gobby one making generalisations about victims and families and I've never reported anyone on this site before but you qualify to be the first

In reply to wercat:
That's life mate. Your not the only person to lose friends or family.

its the safest method of travel, would you rather they took a ship all the time? They get paid the big bucks for it. Don't like it? Get into engineering with another industry, where that risk will just be replaced by something else.


Read the link you gave, it even says in it, "No mechanical fault" it was attributed to pilot error. So your point about the concerns over a helicopter airframe that has a safer record than a 737 is irrelevant...

And what does the piper alpha have to do with air safety?

In reply to balmybaldwin:

The airport fire team and the equipment available to them will be one of the major factors when it gets investigated.

In reply to wercat:

"Why does this helicopter have a second engine?"
"To get you to the crash site after the first one fails."

Helicopters scare the excrement out of me. And a good number of friends who know more about them, and those who know a bit about aeronautical engineering, too, say that they only become scarier with more understanding.

Back to the discussions in this thread... I thought the airlines penalised hold baggage because they want to use the hold to carry commercial packages from couriers and the like.

Logically, getting rid of carry-ons would be the ideal solution, making the whole flying experience a thousand times better (assuming that airports also jacked up their ground staff to alleviate the inevitable delays with hold baggage) but, to do that, airlines would probably have to scrap two of their profit lines: overpriced excess baggage and penalties AND commercially contracted hold-space.

In reply to Xharlie:

Helicopters don't fly, they beat the air into submission.

In reply to Clauso:

I've hit the overhead (on a Fokker 50, so quite low but still painful). Always wore mine after that.