UKC

I've only been climbing 3-4 years but the people I speak to who have been climbing 20+ years keep saying how quiet crags are compared with 20 years ago. We're talking about "normal" days when people go climbing just for the pleasure of climbing regardless of how cold/windy/grey the day is - not sunny weekends at honeypots.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has noticed it and if so why?

I'm not prophetising the end of climbing before any trolls give their opinions.

In reply to GargoyleFeet:
No, don't think so but I think more climbers are going to selected honey pots rather than the esoteric crags and areas. (I've been climbing for 40+ years) Though there are more fair weather climbers.

In reply to GargoyleFeet:
I reckon you mean...
Is outdoor climbing becoming unpopular?
Or you might mean the people who r into outdoor climbing r saying hey shall we start doing less of this,
Or hey this outdoor climbing is boll x shall we do more indoor stuff?

I've only just got back into climbing a few months ago, (gave up many yrs ago) and it has all been wall, just to get some sense of my ability, but im itching to hit outdoor crags, and so have been to visit 2 by myself just to check they r 4 real and still there.
But wow!
Wait a minute i said, that's real climbing, could it b scary?

Its where i started n sometimes it was, depending on how happy u r stepping into that zone where u know its at yr limit and a bit above gear, be it bolts or good or bad gear.

It does seem many are happy with the virtual crags, but that can be scary too for some.
Convenience of indoor walls for many with hectic lifestyles means real climbing still sturs probably a burning desire for some but is now just a less frequent treat.

I hope Im gonna make it a frequent one again tho,

In reply to GargoyleFeet:

No.

In reply to GargoyleFeet:

Surely it depends on the crag?

One thing that always amazes me (I know it shouldn't) is that the great Avon Gorge looks virtually empty at all times nowadays.

In reply to GargoyleFeet: Years ago there was no alternative to outside climbing except the pub. So we used to go out and at least do something in bad weather before getting to the pub.

Nowadays there are alternatives aplenty - so if the weather's looking dodgy, many people will head indoors rather than chancing it outside. Even if we don't end up at a climbing wall, this change in attitude in the climbing world as a whole means that (on average) climbers are more of a fair-weather lot when climbing outside.

Maybe this means that a lot of the time, there are less people climbing outside.

Just some thoughts - but of course this may just be a load of sociological bullshit

In reply to GargoyleFeet:


I think it could well be true that people go indoors now in bad or semi-bad weather, whereas in the days before walls they would go outside anyhow. But I don't think that going outdoors in good weather is less popular. Particular crags might be affected by fashion, of course.

In reply to GargoyleFeet:
I was on Goats crag in Borrowdale on a sunny June Saturday morning, a few years ago, nobody on the crag. I was there on a sunny June Saturday in 1991 and it was heaving.
More information, more cheap flights, more indoor walls, means that far more climbers are more thinly spread and places go in and out of fashion.

In reply to NeilBoyd:


Same with Chee Tor in the Peak, we used to have to queue for routes there back in the 80's and now we have a Chee Tor revival ongoing to clean routes whilst Horeshoe Quarry is ram jammed full.

In reply to Christheclimber:


Chee Tor is one of the few Peak Limestone venues that gives good mid-grade climbing on trad gear, so would have been popular before widespread bolting. A spreading out onto bolt-protected crags nowadays doesn't mean that outdoors climbing is less popular.

In reply to Christheclimber:

Chee Tor has to be re-cleaned every year. Not arguing your point, but the need to clean the crag isn't a symptom of it.
I think the number of people at horseshoe is just down to the desire of lower grade climbers to do some boltednstuff. Chee dale is way better but either trad or harder (or both.)

In reply to Christheclimber:
I asked UKC not long ago if they would be kind enough to analyse statistically the changes in popularity of cliffs over the years, a task they should be capable of doing from their data base. No reply of course.

In reply to Jcw: the results would be utterly meaningless. Nothing like everyone has an account, and not everyone logs all their climbs. Of course

In reply to wbo:
So why do they have a section on most popular cliffs? See non gritstone top 20

In reply to GargoyleFeet:

I think there are a similar number of committed trad climbers as 20 or so years ago when I started. Just feels less as thee is now a massive bouldering sport climbing and very occasional trad climber population.

In reply to Si dH:



It didn't used to be have to be re- cleaned every year in the 80's, yes you would always have new regrowth of foliage which was generally cleanable on lead each year.
The situation has got much worse in recent years due to lack of activity and consequently lack of ascents. Hence the recent activity to reclaim the crag.

In reply to Coel Hellier:


I agree, I wasn't arguing that outdoor climbing is less popular.

In reply to Christheclimber:
Don't agree, I've been one of the early year cleaners in two recent years (not the last two) and it's the same every year, and it will be again next year despite this year's efforts. Rose tinted spectacles I think. It's just the nature of the crag with all the foliage above and the fact it isn't in condition over winter, so by each Spring it is covered in dandelions again.
But this is beside the point.

I think another factor in all this by the way is the increase in popularity of bouldering. The best bouldering crags are not the same as the best trad or sport crags. Eg, chee tor may have been busier 20 years ago. But on Tuesday night there were about 10 people bouldering in Blackwell dale after work until gone 8pm. You wouldn't have had that 20 yrs ago. And ! many limestone boulder problems (even whole small crags) have seen first ascents in recent years.

In reply to GargoyleFeet:

I'd say in terms of numbers, outdoor climbing is more popular than it was, but as a percentage of all climbers it's smaller than it was. Indoor climbing has been around a good while now, it certainly wasn't unusual 20 years ago when I started but it has become massively more popular in the last 5-10 years.

Where once most people who climbed indoors did so to keep up the strength and fitness so they could climb outdoors at the weekends / when weather permitted, these days there is an increasingly large number of climbers who only really climb indoors, or certainly it's their main focus.

Also I think there is something in what Michael said about their being so many alternatives (indoor venues) so people wanting to climb on rock now may only do so in perfect conditions because if the weather is looking iffy it's to easy to bail to a wall rather than commit because it's that or stay at home.

So it may be that less popular, condition dependent and not as easily accessible crags may see less traffic than they used to because if people are going to commit to going outdoors they want a high chance of getting something done without the risk of wet rock, etc.

In reply to GargoyleFeet:

I think what everyone is saying is kind of what I expected - climbers have more choice and are spread out across bouldering/sport/indoor/trad.

Does make me wonder where climbing will be in another 20 years though, particularly after the Olympics showcases indoor achievements. Trad may well end up being niche climbing that the majority aren't interested in? I can see the obvious link from indoors to sport and bouldering but trad is such a different game (both mentally and gear wise) that maybe it'll become the least popular in the UK? Be a shame if that happens but logically I can understand why it might.

Of course, there's no judgement about which type of climbing is best, etc. We all climb whatever we enjoy and that's how it should be. Just thinking out loud.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

Simples.This generation is not as robust as the previous few.Children are supervised by parents and rarely allowed to wander off on their own and have adventures.Risk taking is going out of fashion in British culture.Climbers complain that crags are overgrown,but they rarely bother to ab and clean them.They want the fun but not the responsibility;another modern trend.

In reply to GargoyleFeet:


Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought you'd been on here longer than that!

In reply to Oceanrower:

I have and that's why I'm trying to pacify the trolls so they don't get involved!

In reply to GargoyleFeet:

It's got much more popular overall. I can remember the days when you could be the only party on Idwal Slabs or East Face of Tryfan or Shepherds Crag even on a weekend half a century ago......Same for mountain walking. You could be the only party on the summit of Tryfan or Snowdon (apart from when a train arrived and disgorged it's passengers into the old cafe)

North Wales and The Lakes were like the Highlands are now - hardly anyone around.

Sheer bliss.

In reply to GargoyleFeet:

Globally that's already the case, isn't it?

I wouldn't be surprised if it was already the case in the UK too. Go to a crag like Bowden Doors where there's classic bouldering and classic route climbing in equal supply and the boulderers will usually outnumber the trad climbers.

In reply to Lemony:

Globally it probably is - be interesting to find out where most cams are shipped to in the world.

Something that has just occurred to me - IF trad does decline then I guess there will be less investment in gear research as the market will be smaller. If companies such as DMM published their trad gear sales figures year on year it would make interesting reading...for all of 30 seconds anyway.

In reply to GargoyleFeet:

In my 30 odd years I've never seen parking for Stanage or Burbage as busy as it has been this year. I don't think climbers are not outdoors less, I just think they are honeypotting more. Most places I climb need more traffic to keep them clean.

In reply to GargoyleFeet:

It's the same in caving and potholing; a pal who is in a cave rescue team says it's definitely quieter and you don't meet school groups like you used to because of fear of litigation.

I would add mountain biking to that; people are going over to the more subtle joys of road riding and the remainder spend their time going round and round trail centres and chucking plastic drinks bottles by the trail.

In reply to Offwidth: that may be the case. But as i recall 30 years ago the few routes in the Lakes I did were pretty grotty outside Ravens Crag and similar. In general I think there are a lot more people climbing

Climbing in the rain less popular - would think so. Wall, or a day in the piddling drizzle, again, isn't much of a competition.

Trad gear , routes. I bet sales are up. Yes, it's a bit of a niche but plenty of people are interested.

to Jcw. They may well have the facility to log such data, but the results are obviously totally unreliable. Have you logged all your routes from 1990 accurately, or just picked what you remember.

In reply to GargoyleFeet:

No, but there has probably been a shift. 20+ years ago many of the sport crags that are now very popular were undeveloped, similarly boulderers were a small minority of climbers, not so now. More people holidayig abroad as well.

In reply to GargoyleFeet: Given that there were 8+ pairs climbing on Cloggy last Tuesday, I think any talk of a decline in trad climbing is well wide of the mark.

In reply to Christheclimber:


Maybe there's a bit of a 'Rockfax effect' - most people seem to have the Rockfax guides, so it's those selected crags and routes which see most of the traffic.

In reply to GargoyleFeet:

I think in Britain we've run out rock. There's been a shift to indoor climbing for many reasons but significantly there's always something new to try.

I know several people who rarely climb outdoors in this country any more. Mostly they climb/train indoors then have several trips abroad each year for some high quality rock incomparable to any thing we have over here.

One thing I've noticed is that even in good weather in Sheffield many climbers are choosing to climb indoors rather than outside now. And I don't mean just beginners or those with no experience. Climbers with a lot of experience and talent are choosing indoors. This is a big change in attitude I think.

I think this is a trend that is likely to continue as better indoor facilities emerge and more and more people have their first and formative climbing experiences indoors.

In reply to GargoyleFeet:


In my Experience, France, trad is utterly niche! Even now that there is a bit of a "terrain d'av(venture)" revival, most people who climb- some very well- have never placed a nut in their puffs!

Trad climbing is amazing and what I prefer most (on a part with winter climbing) but it ceased to be relevant for most climbers in the south of France in the 80s...that's 35+ years ago!

Back to the threads. I have been to crags and found them unclimbable. Not recently though. Perhaps because I choose differently? Because I have better knowledge? My worse spate of dirty crags was 10 years ago and the standard answer was "due to low traffic after the foot and mouth outbreak".

In reply to Christheclimber:


The same kind of effect seems to be happening in hillwalking - now it's not just a case of people being Munrocentric, but increasingly taking the standard routes up and down whatever Munro it is. That's always happened to an extent but appears to be on the increase. Anecdotally I see it a lot as I quite often go up Munros by non-guidebook routes then amble down the main path, and the contrast in busyness between the two halves is striking. Good example on Lochnagar last month - went up from Keiloch through the woods, very quiet until on to the two western Munros when it became middling-busy. Definitely busy at the summit and on the main path round the top of the corrie and down the Ladder, then didn't see a soul all the way back down to the Dee after leaving the main drag at the Conachcraig col and returning via Gelder Shiel and the woods, even though this was the loveliest part of the outing.

If you check the walking/bagging websites you can see this kind of thing in action - eg recently on Walkhighlands more than one person has talked of "following the instructions" when climbing a hill - which rather dismays me and also makes me a bit worried in terms of the flexibility needed in bad weather and winter.

In reply to GargoyleFeet:


Don't know how representative I am (probably not very), but FWIW, it was bouldering that got me into trad.

Started indoor bouldering, progressed to outdoor bouldering, loved the headgame aspect of scary bouldering (fortunately I scare very easily, so for me that's most bouldering), fell in love with gritstone, found myself eyeing up some of the beautiful things that were just a *bit* higher than boulder problems, wandered up some things I was very confident I wouldn't fall on, and finally decided that for the sake of my long-term survival (and enjoyment, since I am only occasionally in the headspace for highballing) I ought to suck it up and learn how to place gear ....

And now I do that (and boulder too).

Highball bouldering is certainly in fashion, and solo-ing attracts a lot of attention even though most of us are not Honnold and not going to solo a lot or close to our limits. I think there's a relation between the headgame/risk management element there and what you get in trad.

As I said, no idea how typical I may or may not be. But it seems like there's an alternate pathway there, even if it's not the same as the older route from hillwalking and other outdoor activities into trad.

And quite a number of super-strong sport climbers seem to be sampling trad too lately.

Might be a niche interest, but hey, niche interests are cool nowadays. *g*

In reply to Offwidth:


Not sure I agree. The last two times I've climbed in Wales have been at honeypots (the Cromlech and Milestone Buttress) in June/ July, on a weekend, with fantastic weather. At the Milestone we were the only pair on it all day, except for another duo who turned up for an evening route at about 5 pm. At the Cromlech we saw 2 other pairs all day, plus a gaggle of people on the boulders.

The last few times I've been in the Lakes there have been very few climbers visible on what used to be heaving crags.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

That just means the honeypots are somewhere else. Laddow and Yellowslacks were honeypots once. I accidently pulled a 20cm thick tuff off a one star route at Laddow and found the reason it was so insecure as a handhold was zero traction on the polished foothold underneath!

In reply to GargoyleFeet:

The weather being what it is in the North I think we need to be able to erect roofs over real crags and make them all weather venues. Of course you'd be charged but who cares if a route costs a tenner or so a go ....

In reply to GargoyleFeet:

The internet has a lot to do with having turned rock climbing into another part of the body-building fashion. Having started climbing in 1964 in big boots and with a hawser rope I find it unbelieveable that some climbers seem to prefer hanging around in the gloom at the foot of an indoor wall, pulling on sweaty holds, surrounded by sweaty folk showing off their gym-toned muscles when they could be enjoying warm sunshine on, for example, a glorious south-facing sea cliff or slab in Pembroke or Dorset, with clean dry grippy limestone and the sea gently plopping away beneath them. The length of the route is much the same, the weather often superb, the access not much more difficult and it's free.

I would concede that the indoor wall may be more local and dry and warm in winter but otherwise it can't compete with the great ouitdoors.

In reply to Rigid Raider:


It's also 4+ hours away from most of the population of the country so not really comparable to nipping to the wall.

In reply to Lemony:

Yeah,more people climb,but on fewer crags.

In reply to Rob Naylor


They are probably all at Bramcrag Quarry!