UKC

Just been proofreading the new Cloggy guide, and it provides a new answer to the ancient first-E6 conundrum. 1974 - anyone care to guess?

Also, and why I never thought of this before when we were debating the first E8 I can't think, provides two E8s which were done before the first grit ones, and an upgraded candidate for the first E4 (personally I am happy with Demon Rib, but some aren't).

And finally, a contender for the first E1 5b (I can't think of an earlier bar Javelin Blade, which I am not at all sure about.

Any guesses?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Did the Dawes put up the first E8, or was that E9? E635372 for all I care

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Bugger, I found what I thought was an early E1 today and was going to mention it but had to go out. Out of sight it has gone out of mind.
No idea of E8 unless you have downgraded Indian Face from E9.

I suppose that you could have Bridge Groove as your first E1 but it was originally HVS.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

E1 5b. Perhaps we come to that old chestnut, Kelly's Overhang, 1926? (Until quite recently graded HVS.)

I haven't done Javelin Blade, but I know at least one person who thinks it doesn't warrant E1 with modern gear, sticky boots etc.

Or maybe CB on Scafell would have warranted it, as Menlove Edwards first did it, free (1931)?

Possibly the strongest contenders are Kirkus's Eliminate 1 at Helsby (1928) and Kirkus' Corner at Stanage (1934). Roper's Great Central Route on Dow Crag (1924) - 5b, borderline HVS/E1 - must come quite close too.

But this is the big problem. How can we possibly grade those early routes accurately in modern terms? Most of Joe's routes on grit were around E2/3 e.g. Left and Right Unconquerables (he made the first ascents of both on one day in about April 1949, despite history notes), and Great Slab, Froggatt. Probably correctly graded - with the rudimentary gear and means they had - E2 5b, E2 5a, E3 5b. Only the latter retains its original grade - not that it was ever graded that at the time (I think JB probably graded it VS!)

Big question marks over first ascent of Demon Rib, as most must know.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
Hmm, the E6 is it Purr-Spire direct? The only other on I may suggest is Midsummers.
The E8, now I am stumped, the only one I can think of is Face Mecca, that was dones after Indian Face, maybe Margins has had an upgrade, or has some wise man updated Authentic Desire since no one has repeated it?
Tell us the answers, pleeaassee.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: Obviously you've seen the list on Planet Fear?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: for E1 what about cave arete at laddow or is that 5a?

In reply to James Jackson:

Usually first E8 given as Gaia (Dawes, Black Rocks, 1986) but Requiem (Cuthbertson, Dumbarton Rock, 1983) is now generally reckoned to be E8 by the Scottish hard cru'

G

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: What about Beginners Mind? I thought that was a very early E8?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Would you care to name and shame these routes?

Also, it would depend on the reasons for the upgrade as to whether it could be regarded as the first E4. If it is due to rockfall or aid reduction then it cannot really count as the route in its modern state is different from the original. It's a different entity really.

As for the first E6 conumdrum:- 1974? Purrspire direct is much later than that, 1977 or 78 I think but as an E6 it would be very soft touch, the climbing wasn't much harder or more serious than the standard route. It is likely to be an Alec Sharpe route and the only route I can think of would be Blancmange Sandwich which was totally undergraded at E4 and has seen quite a few failures.

Bob

In reply to Swirly:

I had overlooked that completely. Cave Arete Indirect, soloed on sight by Ivar Berg in 1916, given E1 5a in most guidebooks, but I think distinctly undergraded at 5a. A very pumpy, awkward sequence of moves to start.

In reply to GFoz:

Do they say bo' selecta!?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Give NJ a coconut – Margins of the Mind receiving an upgrade (still tentative, understandably, since I think only Nick Dixon has repeated it). Authentic Desire has been repeated, indeed on sight, by Leo Houlding, and also by others, including I believe Rockfax’s UK Climbing Editor after fairly minimal inspection.

The other E8, though, is a route we’ve all heard of which in its day was the most spoken of on Cloggy.

The E6 – I don’t think you’ll get this: Quiver, by Phil Bartlett. Will presumably come as good news to all those E4 leaders who didn’t repeat it. Would please me immensely if this stood given that this was a totally on sight ascent, and somehow the fact that it wasn’t by someone usually regarded as a top climber would also be satisfying.

The E4 – 1956 Whillans route upgraded from E3. Would be the earliest I can think of (saving Demon Rib).

The E1: you won’t get this either; Brwynog Chimney upgraded from VS. Done in 1933. Cave Arete Indirect is E1 5a, as is Bridge Groove.

In reply to Al: Of course I know about the Planetfear list; in fact along with everyone else on this forum I was responsible for most of it, since initially they didn’t have a single one right to within ten years or so.

In reply to someone: they always say Gaia was the first (grit) E8 but I’m not so sure Doug wasn’t a day or two sooner, and as GFoz says I suspect it’s only a matter of time before Requiem gets upgraded.

In reply to Gordon: You’re right of course that modern grade gives no indication of which routes were the hardest of their time, but unless they’ve actually been altered by rockfall the modern guidebook grade is the only thing that counts for this particular game. I don’t think Kelly’s Overhang is now given E1 5b, actually: I know our host’s pirate guide gives it that grade but I seem to recall folk were saying it’s still HVS in the real guide. If it comes to that I suspect the earlier Rusty Wall now gets E1 6a, but that has clearly altered. Wasn’t Great Central Route done with combined tactics until Kirkus freed it some years later? Javelin Blade - probably a valid claim, tho’ it was SO little thought of at the time that one does wonder. And Dennis Gray told me he did in the 1960’s and it was standard VS, and he did it again in the mid-1980’s and it was much harder to the extent he thought that something must have come off. So there’s a small doubt in my mind. Whereas I can’t imagine anything much coming off Brwynog Chimney – by the look of it it’s a thrutch now and presumably it was a thrutch then.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Hmm, Quiver, Paul Jenkinson reckoned it was E5 5c and didn't get any gear in the entire pitch according to his second. Not done it meself so cannot comment authoritively.

A 1956 Whillans route?, Without a guidebook in front of me I'd have to take some guesses:

Was Naddyn Ddu one of Don's?

Bob

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Taurus?

(Was on my to-do list - may revise that now. Does it now get E4 5b? Or am I in completely the wrong area?)

In reply to Andy2:

Coconut for Mr March! E4 5c I think, but don't quote me.

Bob; Nick Dixon gives Quiver E5/6 and says 'Many leaders' believe it's E6. News to me that there've *been* many leaders of Quiver, but hey.

In reply to Andy2:

Sounds a good candidate, though I seem to remember it used to be E2 in the green bound Cloggy guide. Could have been E3 though.

Bob

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

(Memo to self: Mark up existing Cloggy guide; Taurus & Quiver !)

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Quiver is one of those routes on Cloggy that has a "reasonable" grade but hardly ever gets done. It has probably only had three or four ascents (Bartlett, Jenkinson, Dixon are all I can think/know of). The Boulderer is another with only three or four ascents and was originally given E3! Then you have the early Redhead routes such as Organ Flagellator and Bold Man Big Willy that can only have had a couple of repeats.

Bob

In reply to Bob:
Isn't there a problem relating to the style of the first ascents and the grades they are given now.
For example Requiem is probably E8 for an on-sight ascent, but was I believe extensively yo-yoed by Cubby, so he didn't climb it in E8 style.
Conversely routes like Right Unconqerable were presumeably originally led with no or few runners and might rate say E2 5a in that style.

In reply to john alcock:

Absolutely true: it’s a silly game but I enjoy it. Anyone up for grading Quietus with a runner ‘fixed on two pebbles jammed in opposition near the lip’, or for that matter Botterill’s Slab solo with an iceaxe held between one’s teeth?

In reply to Bob: I think Bold Man, Big Willie is Nick Dixon’s route, isn’t it? Organ Flagellator has been renamed Orphan Flagellator, which apparently was Redhead’s original name for it before some reverse bowdlerisation by Paul W. Curious since JR calls it Organ F in One For The Crow. Actually looks like a hell of a fine line. You do wonder how many repeats it might have had with a sensible name.

In reply to john alcock:

Dear John

You are correct that Cubby did yo-yo Requiem. I watched him over a number of days trying the route and saw him finally make the move at the top to complete it.

Norrie

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: The other E8? Hmm.
How about, Masters Wall, or even the top pitch of Midsummers, erm what else, very spoken about? Tormented Ejaculation? I need to know...I am off on holiday in 1 hour and will never know otherwise...help!!!

In reply to Nj:

Well, whats the answer John?

In reply to Nj:

Another coconut for NJ - Tormented Ejaculation it is. This was given E8 7a at the time, which I knew but had somehow forgotten. But I guess it was never repeated and thus confirmed, and never appeared in a guidebook. And anyway I think maybe Master’s Wall does all the same climbing up to the bolt, tho’ I’m not sure.

The crag also appears to feature the first grade VIII, which is perhaps more surprising – Mick Fowler’s Silver Machine.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Not really concerning the thread, but...are you saying Authentic has been suggested at E8 for the new guide?

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

No: someone suggested it as a guess and said it hadn't been repeated. I was just pointing out that (again according to the draft anyway) it had been onsighted by Leo H five years ago. I believe you did it but not totally onsight: if I'm wrong though, now is the chance to set history straight!

(The draft does have a quote from Leo though in which he suggests Authentic Desire is considerably harder - or more serious, anyway - than Master's Wall).

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

I did it after pre-inspection of the gear (didn't try any moves/see anyone on it). Placed approx 14 RPs ane 1 alien in the pitch, so safe as houses really Great position.