/ NEWS: Permadraw Strength Testing: The Results

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UKC News - on 15:13 Tue
Permadraws up for inspection, 3 kbSeb Grieve has posted the results of a recent test on permadraws (quickdraws which are permanently fixed to a bolt using a maillon) in Yorkshire Boltfund's Facebook Group. The quickdraws had been in-situ on Indian Summer at Kilnsey for an unknown period of time, although Seb suspects they may have been in the route for just two years.

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humptydumpty - on 15:21 Tue
In reply to UKC News:

What force did the maillon break at? Or would it still be ridiculously high, so they didn't bother to test it?
Rick Graham on 15:31 Tue
In reply to humptydumpty:

Good to see gear keeping its strength but bear in mind the wear on the krab potentially cutting the rope.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=67521
Paul B - on 16:28 Tue
In reply to UKC News:

OK, it's a safety related post and a wider reach is good, but (politely) it'd be nice if UKC made the effort to add some editorial context to 'articles' like this instead of repeating posts elsewhere verbatim (even with OP consent). Some context, other issues seen elsewhere, policy (RAD) etc.
David Coley - on 18:01 Tue
humptydumpty - on 18:10 Tue
In reply to David Coley:

Does the last comment at that link make sense?

> The gouge in the quick link would suggest some serious falls/usage...which raises concern about the bolt in the wall.
Cheese Monkey - on 18:11 Tue
In reply to UKC News:

Eugh permadraws are just horrible in every way. Stop being lazy and equip the route yourselves, if it takes too long, tough luck go do something else
WuDavid - on 18:26 Tue
In reply to humptydumpty:

Unfortunately they did not test the mallions.
yodadave on 18:46 Tue
In reply to UKC News:

Maybe I've spent too much time in North America but I feel like permanent draws have their place. On some super steep cliffs the potential outward swing from cleaning your bottom draw puts you swinging out into trees or another cliff. I would say perma draws should be steel and swaged cable not nylon and aluminium. As I say maybe my view is not very British but I find the no perma draws ever mentality a bit limited. I would also say I've removed some absolute death traps and I've also managed to put my own draw on a hanger with a bad perma draw, some hangers do allow for it. I guess my experience has differed from the writers.
stp - on 20:01 Tue
In reply to yodadave:

Agree with that but I'd add that Britain mostly doesn't have steep enough crags to warrant them. (edit: Kilnsey Main OH would be an exception).

I added my own draw to a bolt with a shoddy looking perma draw in Kalymnos recently. When stripping the route after redpointing I realised I'd clipped the perma draw by mistake! Glad I didn't fall on it. So good job removing the shoddy ones.
David Coley - on 22:04 Tue
In reply to humptydumpty:

> Does the last comment at that link make sense?

I guess the author might have meant that the hanger might be suffering a similar amount of wear.
C coldwell-storry - on 06:13 Wed
In reply to Cheese Monkey:

GET iN THE SEA!!!
Cheese Monkey - on 07:12 Wed
In reply to C coldwell-storry:

I'm off surfing next weekend so ok
Toerag - on 09:46 Wed
In reply to yodadave:
> I would say perma draws should be steel and swaged cable not nylon and aluminium.
I think chain is the best thing - you can see when it's in poor condition, cable has a nasty habit of failing where you can't see it.
beardy mike - on 09:50 Wed
In reply to Rick Graham:

Is 13kn for a sling 2 years old keeping it's strength? Not so sure. The maillions are well corroded, most likely because they are galvanised steel in a stainless hanger and if they are right about the corrosion having caused the premature wear of the sling, then that is a significant thing to take from it. Stainless maillions on stainless hangers just like stainless hangers on stainless bolts! Not much point in equipping routes with a draw if the draw is essentially done in 3-4 years.
Smith42 on 10:53 Wed
In reply to UKC News:

Good to see they still had significant strength and way above forces generated in a fall. They look a mess but do have their place, just look at Newtyle or the Works, these routes would be a nightmare to strip without in-situ gear.
beardy mike - on 11:46 Wed
In reply to Smith42:

2 years. If it keeps reducing at that rate then your sling will not be alright in another 2.
Adam Long - on 16:52 Wed
In reply to UKC News:

Worth also repeating the less inspiring results from some permadraws removed from Mecca, Raven tor a few years back.

"while worryingly the one from the fourth bolt broke at 6.96 kN. In the accompanying video below, Ben Bransby points out that sports climbing falls can be quite hard, since a locking device is often used for belaying and there may not be much rope out. Subsequently sports climbing falls can easily generate forces in the 6 – 8 kN range despite being relatively short. Clearly, if you knew this before trying to redpoint Mecca with that draw in place, you wouldn’t be happy falling off far above the bolt"

http://dmmclimbing.com/news/2011/07/mecca-quickdraw-test/

All it takes is for the maillon to get scored by the hanger, then to rotate in the hanger, and the score-marks start cutting the tape.

James Oswald - on 18:16 Wed
In reply to yodadave:
"Maybe I've spent too much time in North America but I feel like permanent draws have their place. On some super steep cliffs the potential outward swing from cleaning your bottom draw puts you swinging out into trees or another cliff."
Why not just second the route then thus avoiding the outward swing?

To Adam Long:
Thanks for the link Adam - that was worth watching.


Misha - on 18:33 Wed
In reply to Smith42:
Agree but you have to keep an eye on the kit and replace it over time. This is being done gradually at some of the crags.
Rick Graham on 19:47 Wed
In reply to beardy mike:
> Is 13kn for a sling 2 years old keeping it's strength? Not so sure. The maillions are well corroded, most likely because they are galvanised steel in a stainless hanger and if they are right about the corrosion having caused the premature wear of the sling, then that is a significant thing to take from it. Stainless maillions on stainless hangers just like stainless hangers on stainless bolts! Not much point in equipping routes with a draw if the draw is essentially done in 3-4 years.

I thought 62.7% remaining strength on a quickdrawer that looks tatty and unsafe was pretty good.

I was pointing out the rope cutting potential of the worn krabs.

The right hand one in the photo looks dangerously sharp.

Admittedly not as bad as the one in the link.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=67521
Post edited at 19:47
stp - on 20:17 Wed
In reply to James Oswald:


> Why not just second the route then thus avoiding the outward swing?

First reason is time. It could take a lot longer.

Second reason is effort. If you're stripping the route you might well be too tired to go up it again. And if not no one wants to waste precious energy doing the same route twice. Also likely to be far harder than just stripping the route by just lowering down so disadvantageous.

Third reason is that on steep routes it can be really hard if you fall off on a top rope because you swing outward and it can be hard to pull back on to the rock.
theterrorwheel - on 23:25 Wed
In reply to UKC News:

Sounds like abit of scare tactics being used there, all items still very strong & when lowering off you would never use just 1 point of protection anyway!
Glyn - on 23:44 Wed
In reply to UKC News:

Would be interesting to see how much strength these DMM Mambas has lost due to wear!: https://twitter.com/glynhudson/status/775689163739959297

On the lower off of Fight Gravity in Frankenjura: Fight Gravity (VIII+) Richard Wagner fels

Reckon their the most worn QD's I've ever seen!
Paul B - on 12:37 Fri
In reply to Adam Long:

I was hoping that UKC might've added this commentary, and a link to the recent BMC article:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/kilnsey-access-problems

This is also worth a read for more commentary on issues with fixed draws:

http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/point-break-fight-over-fixed-draws
yodadave on 11:07 Sat
In reply to Paul B:

both really good articles, thanks Paul.
Many of the crags I had in mind were mentioned in the Rock & Ice article.
I find the "where practical" approach of the BMC article a lot easier to understand.
Thankfully my experience of perma draws has only been on crags where I would view it as appropriate.

As for the worn metal pictures, well the worst I ever saw was on the tape side of a biner, the biner had rotated and the tape was covering a horrendous gouge. Definitely worth carrying a few draws with you even when theres in situ gear so your not forced to clip it. That and one of those slim bike repair style tools for undoing maillons so you can strip dangerous gear.
ads.ukclimbing.com
stp - on 14:19 Sat
In reply to Paul B:

Good articles. The Rock & Ice one was very comprehensive.

I hadn't thought of the fact the crags can be so busy that stripping and replacing draws on a route can make a serious dent in the available time. How much is that an issue over here I wonder? I don't get out at weekends that much so I don't really know. I suppose most of our routes are fairly short so it's less of an issue, though we do have a few long ones. Can't see any route taking 30 mins to strip though, that seems very slow.

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