UKC

Interested in people's opinions on this. Just moved to Glasgow and wanting to do plenty of winter climbing. I've got a bog standard car and when I've driven up from the south before have always been fine on normal tyres and not even thought twice about it. Now I'm up here full-time and wanting to grab weather windows when I can, is it worth changing to a full set of winter tyres? What do other people do up here? Are these 'four season' tyres any good or just trying to be two things and not very good at either? Thanks!

In reply to mes32:
Yes really good, can't recommend them highly enough.

In reply to Tim Davies:

Are you recommending 4season or full winter?

I've used 4 seasons before and they were great! Never had any problems with them.

In reply to mes32:

Used to have some Hankook Optima 4S tyres. They worked extremely well in the snow but for summer use they were a bit noisy, reduced the fuel consumption and wet grip wasn't great. Now got Michelin Crossclimates which are supposed to be a winter rated summer tyre (???). They are brilliant in summer, very quiet, good fuel consumption and excellent wet grip. Used in the snow a few times last winter and they seemed to give very good grip. Had them on for about 15k miles so far and they look about half worn. Recommended.

Lee

In reply to mes32:

I live in the city too and winter climb all the time. I've never bought winter tyres as I don't drive in winter conditions 7 days a week. I've used tons of vehicles with them on though and you do notice a difference for sure. They don't turn your vehicle into a tank though. If you want that then buy chains and practise taking them on and off before needing them. Winter tyre socks are good too.
I've been in cars where people struggle to get anywhere with winter tyres on, so it also depends on how experienced you are at driving...

In reply to thlcr1:

Drove over Rannoch Moor in my 5 series beemer with winter tyres and passed stuck 4 wheel drive cars. Winter tyres all the way. I have an extra set of wheels with summer tyres as well

In reply to mes32:

winter tyres are great and cot no more in the long run, indeed you may wear out summer tyres quicker in winter due to wheel spin. I fit them every year in Sheffield. They really feel secure and inspire confidence in snow while other cars are slipping and sliding around you. I haven't tried 4 season tyres but in the Alps where winter tyres are compulsory in winter they wouldn't meet the regulations

In reply to Climbpsyched:

Happy driving pretty much anywhere (including Moroccan dirt tracks in dodgy Fiats)! Used winter tyres in Norway a few years ago and was impressed with them, especially at speed on ice/snow and bends. But realistically will only be out into the hills every few weeks or so and most times the roads should have been cleared. So it's whether it's worth it for intermittent trips.

Thanks for all the tips. Mary

In reply to Mr Messy:

I wondered about having a second set. But I don't have a garage and a Glasgow flat isn't the ideal place to be storing 4 spare wheels! Unless garages can store them and do the switch-over each season?

In reply to mes32:

winter tyres are not just for snow, they perform better than summer tyres when the temperature is 7deg C or less. In snow they can make the difference between getting home or not

In reply to mes32:

a number of tyre fitters eg Kwik Fit will store your summer tyres over winter and vice versa

In reply to kevin stephens:

Is that what you are doing Kevin? After 14 years living in Finland I got used to changing wheels every autumn and spring (most people use studded tyres there). Moving back to the UK it seemed a bit odd not having them, and our first winter in Sheffield there were times when they would have been helpful. Last winter I was really considering getting them but firstly it never snowed much and secondly I didn't have chance to get up to Scotland or the Lakes much so in the end I never did. But I'm thinking again about doing it this winter. Actually changing tyres on the same rims seems a big hassle/expense, rather than just having your winter tyres on a second set of rims (as everyone does in the Nordics), but perhaps it makes more sense here?

In reply to Mr Messy:


I live in the Alps and for the last 5 years have been running winter tyres on my 2WD cars and they really do make a difference.

I've just got a 4WD Land Rover a month ago and we had maybe 20cm of snow last Friday. Even with 4WD and summer tyres I had a bit of aggro getting out of our driveway (admittedly its sloping dirt track). I'm getting my winter tyres fitted on Monday as quite frankly my Passat with winter tyres is handling better than my 4WD without by far.

In reply to TobyA:

Hi Toby, for the last couple of years I had Kwikfit change the tyres on my rims for me, keeping the non-seasonal tyres in my garage - I think it cost me around £50 a time. I've now changed my car to a Volvo with bigger alloys and fatter low profile tyres (which would be rubbish in the snow) but with the same overall circumference. So I have ordered some steel rims to have the old winter tyres fitted, then I will be able to swap the wheels easily myself

In reply to mes32: i have Michelin crossclimates as my summer tyres and they're very good. They are good when theyre cold and rainy but where i would not trust them is compressed snow/ice. Winters are goodyear ultra grip ice 2, can fully recommend them.

In reply to kevin stephens:

4 season tyres will meet the requirement in the alps.

Anything with the winter symbol is accepted. Almost all 4 :season tyres have the appropriate rating.

I'm on Goodyear 4 season tyres. Got a great rating, but came second in years to the Michelin cross climates.

However, they are not as good as a winter tyres in winter or a summer tyre in summer. There is argument that for where I live in the south they are probably more appropriate than winter tyres as the wet fairly cold weather is better handled by these than pure winter tyres.

In reply to Dave B:

I guess it comes down to manufacturers description of "4 season". Not all tyres sold as "4 season" will have the qualities required to earn the snowflake symbol which the gendarmes will look for before allowing you through a checkpoint

In reply to kevin stephens:

This symbol
http://www.goodyear.eu/corporate_emea/our-responsibilities/road-safety/wint...

Tyres to look at if you want an all season.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/accessories-tyres/92863/all-season-tyres-test-...

Any examples of all season that don't meet the requirement? The are some all-weather tyres that aren't all season but if its sold as all season I think it's meant to have the winter rating

I'm not aware of any for a few years. I had some on the car as original equipment which were m+s but not three peak snow flake, but that war over ten years ago and they weren't alive for long .. But it's not my area, so happy to be corrected.

In reply to Dave B:
yes I was thinking of the m+s only rating, which as you indicate were oversold as winter tyres, glad to hear that they are no longer touted as such

In reply to TobyA:


Kind of doubt that, and anyway tire manufactorers recommend only 2 times mounting on rims. So unless you wear out tires in two seasons, getting a second set of rims is the way to go. That said, I can't comment if 4seasons or winter tires are even needed in Scotland.

In reply to mes32:

I have a set of 4 winter tyres on steel wheels advertised in For sale and wanted at present, great tyres, just no longer needed.

In reply to mes32:
I currently have 3 winter tyres fitted (yes, I know, tyre blew up on the way to Dublin and ended up just replacing it with whatever cheap tyre was available; it's on the back so who cares).

Driving around in loose conditions (mud as well as snow/ice) with winter tyres is great fun, summer tyres not so much, but I got snow chains first as they are cheaper. I have the modern kind that you can put on the tyres _after_ you get stuck as opposed to the old fashioned type where you had to drive onto them and thus had to put them on before you get stuck... You can still get stuck with winter tyres but having some snow chains gives you a good chance of getting out of trouble, and may be required for certain conditions/slopes anyway.

I do have two sets of rims now but one set has knackered summers on and I tend to end up just running the winters (all Nokian tyres) all year which is fine. I will probably get round to changing to new summers in the spring - probably...

mytyres.co.uk is good, and will also post you rims with tyres on which makes the initial change easier.

Living in Devon the winter tyres are probably a bit overkill, but I did manage to get stuck when using crappy summer tyres on a snow-covered road onto Dartmoor a few winters ago (not even one of the bad winters, I think it was about the only snow of the year!) and had to get the snow chains out... same thing happened the year after I think with traffic chaos somewhere near Princetown

In reply to mes32:

Isn't this all a bit over the top. I have been climbing for 30 years. I now go sport climbing, bouldering, trad climbing, multipitch climbing, winter climbing, aid climbing and indoor climbing. On my car I use tyres, never had a problem with tyres and I still go climbing.

In reply to mes32:

Sounds like no it's not worth it

I'll update this if I crash my van and regret not fitting them...

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Just as info quite a lot of people would say that the back is where you want the grip not the front. On a front wheel drive car having more traction on the front will get you out of being stuck and driving on a straight road will make the car feel grippy and give you confidence. Having more traction on the back will reduce your chances of ending up in a ditch when you hit a corner at a speed your front tyres have given you confidence to drive at. If you've got one summer tyre on the back then be careful going around corners that head in the opposite direction. I'm surprised the garage agreed to fit that combination of tyres without at least pointing out the danger of mixing full front winters with a summer on the back.

To the OP, the only real reason not to have winter tyres is if you don't plan on keeping the car. Depending on what tyre you get they'll massively increase your traction in cold and wet weather and save you a lot of money in the long run. When I swap over in Autumn the difference is very noticable, especially not aquaplaning, on frosty mornings and of course on good snow you're on tracks.

I've got a set of Cooper weather master S/T2's and after about 20k miles they've got 4mm tread left on them, I ended up leaving them on this summer unfortunately but they've only lost a mil over the summer months. They were £70 a corner I think.

My other set are all season and are fine as well, think they were £45 each. I wouldn't go back to full summer tyres in a million years they make no sense to me whatsoever. Unless you only drive to tesco and back in the city they're useless, even a bit of wet grass or someone's driveway can defeat summer tyres quite easily and they wear out super fast. Our work car is a medium size vw and it goes through a cheap summer tyre on the front in 5k, I would expect a cheap 8mm all season to last 20k as an absolute minimum. I've known friends that have spent over £100 on a branded summer tyre only to shred them in a year, madness.

I also find it quite scary driving a car with summer tyres on in anything aproaching winter or in wet weather. Not sure how much of that is in my head but I had an interesting trip up to glasgow in a car with summer tyres on last year and spent the whole journey at 40mph max and skidded numerous times going over the tops (snow level was no more than half an inch in places). Those kinds of conditions would be unoticable with a winter tyre on.

In reply to mes32:

I've started using the CrossClimates. The tests say they're almost as good as a winter tyre and almost as good as a summer tyre, but without the faff of running 2 sets ..... let's see how they turn out.

They're obviously a redesigned winter tyre to also work in summer rather than the other way round, which gives me confidence.

In reply to mes32:

We have a second set of steel wheels with Avon Ice Touring tyres for my wife's Ibiza diesel and it's simply unbelievable how they perform in snow; I would be willing to take on any 4x4 on regular tyres and to bet quite heavily that it would out-perform the 4x4, especially with the weight of the diesel engine over the driving wheels.

The car came with the stupid pump and latex kit so I bought a Polo jack and wheelbrace off Ebay and one of the winter wheels lives with that in the boot well in summer and vice-versa in winter.

In reply to mes32:

FOR SALE FOR SALEFOR SALEFOR SALEFOR SALEFOR SALEFOR SALEFOR SALEFOR SALEFOR SALEFOR SALE!

I scrapped a Subaru Impreza sport non-turbo recently.
I have four spare wheels, v good condition fitted with full winter tyres hardly used. Five pins.
Those wheels got me through two feet of snow to the Coire Cas car park when everyone else couldn't move. Car was as good as a Land Rover in the snow.
Lakes location.
Reasonable offers.
DC

In reply to mes32:

I have been driving round the Scottish countryside in winter for some 25 years now. I have never fitted winter tyres, nor felt the need to.

In reply to climbwhenready: i was under the impression that the crossclimates were weighted towards the summer. They're good in rubbish weather, bit cold, rain and rough roads, but not snow, so they're likely a fine tyre for most of the uk.

Olddirtydoggy : no, they help a fair bit if you live somewhere with rough conditions. Depends how much you drive and how much on slush, snow

In reply to mes32:

After living in Norway for a few years I'd probably consider winter tires if I was spending a lot of time back in the Scottish Highlands. Had a few scary descents on slippery roads at the Southern end of Rannoch Moor. I haven't got studded tires. Think that would be overkill for Scotland as I've never seen roads get more than a thin icing. I've just got a cheap set of wheels for the winter tires. The wheels get changed twice a year and stored in the house. Don't know anybody out here who just changes the tires. Don't know anybody using tires that can be used throughout the year, irrespective of their income.

In reply to mes32:

Living in Scotland I've used winter tyres for the last twenty years or so and I would highly recommend them. I tend now to keep them on all year round. Usually buy online (try Camskill) and I have a local tyre place that will fit and balance for £10 per wheel. I would not keep them on all year round if I was driving hard all the time as the fronts (presuming front wheel drive) will wear out more quickly but I find that they last just as long as summer tyres if driving reasonably. I do find that once they are down to say 4mm to 5mm tread their winter snow performance really decreases - something to bear in mind if buying a secondhand set off gumtree for instance. Though it is very hard to do a like for like fuel consumption test I used to drive a regular commute and, factoring in road condition, ambient temp, wind, traffic etc. I did not find any notable difference in fuel consumption. In recent years have used Vredestein, Avon and Cooper (think Avon and Cooper are the same company). The Cooper's I am not necessarily convinced by, the Vredestein's very good and the Avon's very good as well though a good chunk cheaper then the Vredesteins.

Winter tyres will get you to places in the hills in winter that summer tyres will not, and also give a lot of peace of mind in doing so. But, if travelling up the A9 on a snowy Friday night for example, you won't be moving any quicker than any one else as you will be limited by the summer shod drivers in front of you. If you are first up the Loch Muick road of a morning with six inches of fresh snow on it you will be able to drive it with confidence. If black ice you are going for a slide.

I would say as well that the Police seem much more likely to close snowgates/roads at the first sign of snow now than they used to. So you may turn up at a gate, suitable equipped for the conditions, to find you can not get to where you want to go anyway.

In reply to mes32:
I have had winter tyres for a few years. As my driving instructor neighbour said. 4 wheel drive will get you going, but grippy tyres will help you stop. They are better in the wet at any temperature below 7 C.

In reply to kevin stephens:

Lots of all weather tyres carry the snow flake symbol meaning they qualify as winter tyres on the continent where they are compulsory in some places. They are great as they can be left on all year so you do not have the problem of changing and storing tyres.

In reply to mes32:

its a bit like insurance, the day you are driving past everybody else you'll be thankful. I keep chains in my van as well, and when i've needed tham i've been grateful for them. See the day when they only let chains up the devils elbow road, or the cairngorm road, and thats often enough, you'll love the empty slopes and glad you went prepared. One final thing, most of the shit that happens on the road in winter is caused by people not being prepared, nlaming the government for the snow, and getting stuck in a cm of snow. Wait till this years M11 chaos and laugh at the depth of snow that causes it. How many of them are running winter tyres.

Thanks everyone! Really helpful answers. Looks like I'll be going for all-season, possibly winter tyres, all year. I don't want to have to change my wheels though so will have a chat with maybe Kwikfit about the best tyre for my alloys (have a 14 reg A3). I remember having chains on the cars when growing up in Colorado and they were a massive faff - keen to avoid those!

In reply to wbo:

No, they're meant to be good in snow too. I haven't tried them yet though!

In reply to 3leggeddog:

Hmm... Having driven a 4wd for a good number of years on summer tyres and then driven a front wheel drive on winter tyres in proper winter conditions for a few weeks, I'd definitely have the latter if I had to choose or if I lived in an area that got properly cold winters.

In reply to mes32:

don't go to Kwikfit.......
you'll find better elsewhere.

if all you want is just tires, and fitting onto car, you'll probably find a much broader choice on blackcircles.com
ats euromaster also seems to do a better range of options...

you only need to select the tire size (and possibly speed rating - although most on-line ordering systems will automatically select the right speed-rating for the car) - just match what you current ones are: 205/65 16 V (or something like that)

In reply to climbwhenready:

I think we are disagreeing on very little - I like the cross climates very much.

I am not sure they would have been up to the job for the drive back from skiing today, but judging by the crashes I passed nothing was working too well. Continual wet snowfall onto a compressed snow base on the road is pretty nasty

In reply to DundeeDave:


I'm the same. I don't doubt that they have value but I also think that cautious driving is a good strategy.

In reply to wbo:

Fair enough!

In reply to daWalt:

Depends on the size. ATS didn't stock the Goodyear All season. Kwik fit seem to have gone down the all season route this year rather than having LOADS of winter tyres. Seems sensible to me. ATS seemed to have poor range in my tyre size.

Blackcircles have loads of tyres... but were £15 more per tyre for the Goodyear than Kwikfit.

This isn't always the case and the best advice is shop around.... and use someone you trust. Our local Kwik is OK, but like anything I am sure there are rubbish ones too...

In reply to mes32:


Perhaps, but far from necessary. I've lived (and climbed) in Scotland for 25 years, and have never bothered with winter tyres, including when I was living in Aberdeenshire. There are all sorts of arguments as to why they are better (outlined above), and I won't try to contradict them. I will just say that I have never had a strong enough motivation to go out and get some myself despite having seen what they can do when I've rented cars in Norway.

A few thoughts:
1. Although the hills get a lot of snow, the roads and parking for the crags is generally fairly low and there will only be a handful of weekends in a year where you have to drive on snow for any great distance.
2. The roads are generally kept pretty well gritted and clear of snow, except during heavy snow and high winds. These are normally not ideal conditions for climbing, and living in Glasgow, you will have much more opportunity to be selective with conditions.
3. If there are problems with snow on the road, you will generally be stuck in traffic rather than snow, or the roads will be closed completely. Tyres do not help with this.
4. The tyre profile will probably have as much impact as the tyres. I have seen an old micra cope easily in conditions where a sporty Audi with winter tyres was unable to move. This may sway you one way or the other depending on what you drive.


I would say that if you have the time and money, then winter tyres are probably a good idea and just go and get them. Otherwise, see how you get on for the first year and you will have a much better idea of whether they will make a difference to you.

In reply to MarkJH:

Entirely agree with you sir,
I am still to get stuck anywhere. I have a pair of snowchains in the boot when the going gets really bad. I've used them the grand total of 4 times over the last 15 years in Scotland.

Winter tyres do make your driving more secure and comfortable. My pals has them on his van and he's regularly overtaking people crawling on the road because he really can do so safely.

I used to have the same issue re space which is why I never bought a spare set of wheels for winter (Glasgow years). I grew up in an alpine valley and you would not dream to NOT have a spare set in winter.

As others mentioned, winter driving is a skill. If you honed it, there is little that will truly stop you in the UK but other drivers! Ultimately, one has to weigh up things but having winter tyres on may mean you'll be able to avoid the person in front who lost control of their vehicle or not!

BTW, I haven't got any...mostly expense but probably should for my missus!

In reply to Solaris:

Totally agree. 4WD good; winter tyres better. And combination best. This is based on many, many years driving in Subarus in Scotland, and winter driving in Norway in FWD cars with winter tyres.

If you stick to main roads then you will probably get by without accidents on summer tyres, given the situation with snow gates and road closures. But I like to have the tremendous boost to security and confidence you get from winter tyres, particularly on back roads, and the virtual certain knowledge that you will get through.

In reply to mes32:

I have a BMW 3 series, horrible in snow or ice on summer tyres. I bought a set of Goodyear winter tyres on rims, just about to put them on for a third winter. Last January, it got parked up at the hostel up the hill from Aberfeldy while 14 inches of snow fell. Sunday, I cleared the windows, started the engine and drove down the hill without a trace of wheelspin or skidding. And they're dead secure on frosty roads
The other thing that happens is that my expensive ultra low profile summer tyres only get 8 months a year of wear, so they last longer. Big initial outlay but probably makes the car cheaper to run after that. I wouldn't be without them now.

In reply to MarkJH:


As has already been pointed out previously on this thread: winter tyres aren't just about snow. They perform better than normal tyres in temperatures below ~7°C, and they clear surface water better as well.

Fair enough if you decide that you don't need the additional performance headroom that winter tyres offer at this time of year. But to argue this on the basis that they're only beneficial in snow is a fallacy. FWIW I also carry snow chains, for when it is very snowy. However, having winter tyres on means that you can often keep going safely without having to stop and grovel about with chains. Which is nice.

As it happens, I intend to fit a set of Cross Climates fairly soon, when my current Nokian winter tyres are worn out (not at the legal minimum 1.6mm, but at the recommended minimum for winter tyres of between 4mm and 3mm).

In reply to Martin W:

As I said in my post: I have absolutely no argument about that; I agree entirely.

The only point I was making was that, for me, the benefits for driving in snow are unnecessary for Scotland. I could have added that I drive so far within the limits of the car, that the benefits in cold/ wet conditions are similarly marginal. I don't doubt that winter tyres would improve the performance of the car, but ( for me) they just aren't worth the effort every 6 months.

In reply to mes32:

i live in Shropshire, not the snowiest part of the world most of the time, but we have - and i drive on - lots of roads that don't see a gritter from one decade to the next...

i fit winter tyres, and now Michelin Cross Climates (2nd set just gone on, the first set lasted 12 months and 20,000 miles..), and the biggest reason can been seen in the countless videos on the net showing the difference between braking distances with good summer tyres and average winter tyres on cold, wet (not snowy..) roads at normal winter temps.

its very simple, your £100 Goodyear/Michelin/Conti/Dunlop summer tyres with a wet braking rating of A or B are tested at an abient temp of 25c where they are fantastic, however by the time late november comes the roads around - for example - Braehead Shopping centre are at about 1c or less, and the rubber composition of your A rated, £100 Goodyears has meant that their ability to grip the road equals that of the the cheapest £30 Chinese Ditchfinder with an 'F' wet grip rating...

with no snow, just wet, cold roads, your braking distances with winter tyres are about 20% less. at 30mph thats at least one car length, at 60mph on the A82 across Rannoch its about about 4 car lengths. if theres slush on the road - there will be - winter tyres are the difference between staying pointed in the right direction, or even staying on the road, and finding out why 'ditchfinders' are so called.

In reply to mes32:

I haven't read the entire thread, (fascinating as winter tyres are) but I'll chip in seeing as I live in Scotland, I drive a lot and depend on winter tyres as I have one of those rear-wheel-drive Bavarian cars which, as any number of experts who have never driven one will tell you, are useless in the snow.

I bought a set of 2ndhand Michelin Alpins on rims for c.£200 on eBay and they make the difference between me either staying at home/having a worrying time (such as driving over Shap on Friday night) and driving where and when I want. I can drive up hills, turn corners and stop without my bum getting cramp. I also have snowsocks as a get-out-of-jail card if the snow is too bad for the tyres but I haven't needed them on this car yet.

In reply to Cam Forrest:

And I totally agree with you! (I also drive a Subaru, too -- one on low profile tyres and lots of gee gees! If I didn't live in the south of England, I'd definitely have a set of winter tyres.)

A wider observation I'd offer is that Britain would have far fewer problems when snow and ice hits if we used winter tyres.

In reply to Cam Forrest:


I always enjoyed passing people in Discoverys etc... whilst driving our winter tyred 206. As others have said, apart from snow they are generally safer. The only real cost is a set of steel rims to put them on and about 30mins swapping them over twice a year. Over a life time that is probably worth it to know you won't get stuck, or slide off the road and cause minor damage, which would cost you more than your steel rims or insurance claim contribution.