UKC

Hello

I just read something interesting about climbing with a doubled rope. For example if i were to use a 70m rope and tie-in in the center could i sport climb with an extra margin of safety or lead a zig zaging route. The principle would be the same as using 2 ropes? Or if climbing vertically i could clip alternately?

Would this also reduce the ware on the end of long rope that gets mainly used for short climbs? I.E. i bought a long rope but now only live in a place with short climbing.

In reply to Inhambane:

You could but if you don't trust a single strand of your single rope, you shouldn't climb on it.

I've done this when doing multipitch as a 3. Nornally just clip both. But I think alternate is probably technically better

In reply to Inhambane:

I think the normal caveats apply regarding ropework and safety systems; when I've done so, more often than not I put both ropes into most quickdraws, all except obvious zigzags, traverses etc. That negates the wear argument too, but then I was using an 8.5 doubled.

In reply to Inhambane:

The thing that is important about using two ropes is that you stick to the method that you start out with otherwise it's possible to end up in a situation where a moving rope is rubbing against a static rope with the obvious risks. Clipping two ropes also increases the impact forces. It's not as straightforward as you may think and to be honest I find it a faff.

Al

In reply to Inhambane:
"could i sport climb with an extra margin of safety or lead a zig zaging route?"

One of the benefits of using double rope is your ability to reduce drag, In a setting where you don't want to get ripped off the rock (on a trad route) from extreme rope drag yes it will increase safety. However when sport climbing, routes usually wonder less, if they were to be wondering double ropes may help but wouldn't inherently increase any safety. So the short answer is no.

"The principle would be the same as using 2 ropes?"

Yes. Halving a rope is reasonably common practice.

"Would this also reduce the ware on the end of long rope that gets mainly used for short climbs? I.E. i bought a long rope but now only live in a place with short climbing"

My advice would be don't sport climb on a doubled rope unless you feel it necessary to reduce drag. The beauty of sport climbing is the limited faff. If you are worried about wear on your rope flake it through every couple climbs and use the other end so both get equal wear.

Edit:
You should NOT clip two ropes into one quick draw carabiner (as a runner). As the radius of the carabiner changes from the spine to the gate. When you clip two ropes the rope closer to the spine is slightly closer to the ground. In a fall situation that ropes moves faster than the other, in a large fall enough friction can be caused to melt the sheath of the rope. If there was any damage it would be unlikely to result in the rope breaking in that fall but may ruin your rope.

In reply to snoop6060:

Either clip both into every draw or clip each one singly. Never clip both into some draws with some clipped singly.
If not all are clipped into every draw, in the event of a fall or weighted lower off, the ropes may move at different speeds and heat damage the sheaths where they rub together.
Both into every draw is like using twin ropes.

In reply to Inhambane:

It's very common to see multipitch sport in Europe climbed with half ropes, where the descent is very often by abseil. That said, it's also very common to see them used as twins, with both ropes clipped to every bolt. As others have mentioned above, don't mix and match techniques on the same pitch, it can lead to a moving rope/strand rubbing against a static one of you fall off. If you've set off using them like half ropes and you do need to clip both to a single bolt (to protect two seconds on a traversing section, for example), use two quickdraws.

In reply to ModerateMatt:


I've never seen this before and would be amazed if the effect was pronounced enough to have any observable effect on rope wear at all, and certainly not on short-term safely. If you know of any study that's been done to show this I'd be keen to see it, otherwise I don't think it's a relevant concern. Obviously if the ropes have been clipped separately earlier and are then clipped together, there is a much greater likelihood of significant rope rubbing of one against the other.

In reply to Inhambane:

great input thanks!

In reply to john arran:

Its amazing people make such public assertions on safety when clearly clueless. Why would we ever have twin ropes if this were true?

In reply to the thread:
What knot do people use when tying on in the middle of the rope for leading?
In the past I have used a monster rethreaded figure of eight on the bight, to avoid adding a karabiner to the system.
Is this in any way necessary?

In reply to ModerateMatt:



The ropes melting theory is rubbish otherwise manufacturers would not have come up with "skinny ropes" as the same would apply. There may however be some ,merit in the theory that the combined thickness of two ropes i.e. wider than skinnies could be wider than what a krab is designed to handle.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:
You are being too kind to him. Any practical situation when using twin ropes (ie half ropes as a twin) would never matter enough or the slightly thinner twin ropes would never be an accepted system. Who would climb on a twin thick rope system anyhow... they would weigh too much for sport climbing!?

In reply to Offwidth:
Twin ropes should always be clipped in together. They are designed for that. They should both stretch the same amount and the belayer should be keeping the tension as near as possible the same.
The problem is when half ropes are sometimes clipped in together and sometimes separately on the same route resulting in a large difference in movement of one rope against the other. Somewhere in my 'archive' (hoard) is a rope with an 4ft length of shiney sheath from this occurring. Leader clipped both ropes to gear on a traverse section to protect two seconds. One second fell off and their rope ran against/over the other. The leader should have used two extenders and kept the ropes apart. I was not a happy bunny as the rope was immediately retired. (I know, it was probably safe, but I have to believe in my gear, and a shiny bit was enough to put me off. Shame really as it was such a nice handling rope.)
This could occur if the leader fell in a different line to where the gear was clipped, causing one to run over the other. Even the difference in stretch could cause enough heat to damage a sheath.
I know the scenario where this might happen is rare, but it is still possible, as with all climbing incidents.

In reply to johncook:

That is true but I'm talking about ropes used in twin rope systems.

On the subject of rope rubbing.. its amazing how well ropes can cope with friction burns... we had a dangerous set-up on part of our old Uni wall where the clueless could let the weighted rope on a rounded lowering bar (that ran across the top of the whole wall) rub against the edge of one of the spaced solid fixing brackets that held the bar to the wall behind. I retired many club ropes due to that (despite being told mulitiple times some people just don't listen) but none snapped or even severed the sheath.

In reply to stevieb:


An ideal knot for this is the bowline-on-a-bight. You can thread the bight through your harness then "step through" the bight pushing it over your head, under your feet and complete the knot - bomber!

For reference... http://www.animatedknots.com/bowlinebight/#ScrollPoint

In reply to LG-Mark:

Thanks for this.
I found an old UKC thread as well, seems that consensus is still definitely for the rope only big knot option.
The rethreaded fig-8 on the bight is also bomber, but very bulky and uses a lot of rope.

In reply to Inhambane:


Possibly, because ropes take the most abuse over the couple of metres nearest to the climber, i.e. the end, if you tied into the middle then that would see the most wear and help preserve the ends... The obvious downside to that is that normally when the ends are getting worn you can cut off a couple of metres from each and have a slightly shorter rope, e.g. a 60m rope would become a 56m rope or thereabouts, if you cut out the middle four metres from a 60m rope then you'll be left with two 28m ropes.

In reply to Inhambane:
I havent done much climbing on two ropes, but i thought i read something about using half ropes. Clipping both strands causes more stress on each anchor in the case of a fall. And that is how twin ropes evolved, that they are more "stretchy" than halves and are meant to be clipped to each runner. Also (in my head at least) a half rope is the same as a single only thinner, so a doubled up single rope should not be clipped into each runner. If i was using a single doubled, i would just use it as a double. Im willing to concede to other peoples increased knowledge and experience.
Also, i would have thought most sport climbs would be bolted in a manner that would help reduce rope drag.

In reply to Inhambane:

If you have a long rope but climb mostly short routes, rope wear at the ends shouldn't be an issue as you can chop the worn ends and still have plenty of rope left for your routes.

In reply to pff:

I was of the understanding that most half ropes are also certified as twins these days?

In reply to tehmarks:
If its your understanding of the current situation, thats grand. My reading of it goes back a couple of years.

In reply to pff:

It's certainly the case for Mammut ropes; although they aren't obviously advertised as such, if you zoom in on the photo on the Genesis for example you can see the certification as half and twin marked on the end of the rope, and data is given for single strand/55kg (half) and double stand/80kg (twin) for number of falls.

I initially turned to Beal to double check I wasn't talking bollocks but there's no information at all on their site, at least as far as I can see.

In reply to john arran:


Good to hear. A few years ago, whilst at the Inverness wall, I only had a half rope, so doubled it up and clipped both ends into each QD as I lead up. Someone purporting to be in 'authority' saw this and ticked me off for unsafe practices - citing the friction/rope melting argument above, and insisted I lead up clipping only one end at a time. I humoured him until he sodded off and went back to my preferred method.

In reply to Inhambane:
Couple of problems,

You cannot have both strands of a single rope running through the same quickdraw as this halves the rope stretch.

You also introduce the issue of belaying with half ropes which may seem basic, but it adds another thing to go wrong.

You can only lower off a 15metre route, which pretty much invalidates the zigzag/massive rope drag problem.

If you aren't going to be doing long routes, I would cut the rope.

In reply to Inhambane:

As it happens (and despite what a number of people are telling you about not mixing clipping alternately and two strands together) mammut are of the opinion it is perfectly acceptable at least with their ropes:-

"You had a question on your Mammut rope Phoenix 8mm and whether it can be used in twin and half rope technique in one single pitch. This is the case, you can always clip the two rope strands as twins, then split them as doubles, join again etc. This is exactly the advantage of half ropes compared to twin ropes where you always need to clip both ropes.

Hope this helps you,
best regards from Switzerland
xxxxxx
Productmanager Climbing Equipment
Mammut Sports Group AG, Birren 5, CH-5703 Seon"

You also won´ t reduce the rope stretch by a half or double the load on the bolts (which is anway irrelevant sport climbing), this theme has been covered often enough before. The rope characteristics are effectively irrelevant compared to belayer weight.
Lowering off is sure going to be a shambles though!

In reply to Inhambane:

Mammut say:-

"you had a question on your Mammut rope Phoenix 8mm and whether it can be used in twin and half rope technique in one single pitch. This is the case, you can always clip the two rope strands as twins, then split them as doubles, join again etc. This is exactly the advantage of half ropes compared to twin ropes where you always need to clip both ropes.

Hope this helps you,
best regards from Switzerland,

(deleted)

(deleted) Kind regards
(deleted)
Productmanager Climbing Equipment
Mammut Sports Group AG, Birren 5, CH-5703 Seon "

The load on the bolts isn´´ t particularly increased either way and sport climbing it doesn´ t matter anyyway, the weight of the belayer makes the difference not the ropes.
Lowering will be chaos!

In reply to jimtitt:

That response is with a half/twin not a single... Have you done your own testing with two strands of single rope and seen those results you mention?
Cheers

In reply to zimpara:



That was relevant to the difference of opinion as to whether it is safe (or acceptable) to vary the clipping style using two ropes.

The increase in force when single ropes are used as twin ropes is usually around the 15% mark, this information is readily available by reading the specs for any triple-rated rope. Since with a belayer included in the system the test impact forces can never be achieved the difference will be even less.

In reply to all:

Interesting that Mammut themselves say it's ok to mix twin and double rope clipping with half ropes. I haven't seen any relevant test results, but there are possible scenarios where one rope travels a significantly greater distance than the other, and in a fall one can easily imagine a significant amount of differential slip where the ropes run together through a crab - enough to glass the ropes, one would think. But perhaps not?

Regarding using single ropes as twins: why would one ever do that, when one can simply trail one rope? Easier clipping, smaller forces.

Regarding using a pair of single ropes (or a long rope doubled over) with double rope technique: in a fall surely impact forces on runners are almost always identical to those generated when using a single rope of the same spec, since in practice the fall is almost always held only by the rope through the highest runner.

To the OP: On sport routes I have occasionally doubled over a long rope and clipped alternately, in situations where I judge that a bolt (especially the second or third bolt) is placed in such a way that a fall would be dangerous.

In reply to Inhambane:

One danger of clipping ropes alternately then together into the same karabiner is that if the two preceding bolts are far apart horizontally the resulting three way force from a fall on the shared karabiner could cause it to fail by opening it up. A lot of light weight karabiners have a much lower strength in this mode compared to normal use when the force is in a straight line along the spine of the karabiner.

In reply to Inhambane:

In my early sport climbing days, being a short arse, I occasionally used a second rope for very spaced bolts or awkward clips my rationale being that I might not fall as far if I missed a clip. I know about fall factors etc etc but a long potential fall is a long potential fall Then I bought a clipstick ...

In reply to Inhambane:


I bought an 80m 10mm last year. When the ends started to get trashed I cut it in two, so 2 x 40m ropes. These are great for most routes, particularly the Peak district or indoors. Whilst one end is shagged the ends that were formally the middle of the rope were practically like new. If you chop the end off the rope as it wears out you end up chopping really regularly and quickly have a rope too short to be of use. But this way you end up with two ropes that together last about the same as a new one.

Doubling the rope of course doubles the weight. Sport routes are bolted to be done on a single rope. Clipping alternately is only useful if a clip is really hard which is usually not the case with good bolting.