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I was out in Scotland over the last few days and was chatting with a friend about the fact that you rarely, if ever see people from ethnic minorities out in the hills in winter or even at other times of year.
I'm not talking about British people who happen not to be white, but about people whose ethnic roots are outside the UK, or Europe. I'd be interested to see why people think this is the case.
We reckoned that it was a combination of a couple of things. Firstly, many ethnic minorities originate from poor or third world countries. If you live in such places, you probably wouldn't want to go out and put yourself in a physically challenging situation when your daily life is a struggle for survival. In any case, you're probably not priveliged enough to do it even if you wanted to. That doesn't explain why ethnic minorities (in general) in this country don't go out in the hills though. We thought that the first reason led to a lack of mountaineering 'role models' or, better put, no mountaineering tradition to motivate people to join in the fun. If you think about why you started climbing, it was probably through someone who already did, or from reading about someone who climbed and who you wanted to emulate.
No tradition led to no-one in that particular community going climbing.
Or maybe some people just don't like the cold.
Anyone got any other ideas?
I'm not talking about British people who happen not to be white, but about people whose ethnic roots are outside the UK, or Europe. I'd be interested to see why people think this is the case.
We reckoned that it was a combination of a couple of things. Firstly, many ethnic minorities originate from poor or third world countries. If you live in such places, you probably wouldn't want to go out and put yourself in a physically challenging situation when your daily life is a struggle for survival. In any case, you're probably not priveliged enough to do it even if you wanted to. That doesn't explain why ethnic minorities (in general) in this country don't go out in the hills though. We thought that the first reason led to a lack of mountaineering 'role models' or, better put, no mountaineering tradition to motivate people to join in the fun. If you think about why you started climbing, it was probably through someone who already did, or from reading about someone who climbed and who you wanted to emulate.
No tradition led to no-one in that particular community going climbing.
Or maybe some people just don't like the cold.
Anyone got any other ideas?
In reply to Dave J:
I think this has been disccussed before but here my "$0.02" os i'm being incredibly frank so if i've not phrased it PC who cares.
You don't see coloured people climbing/mtb/surfing/skiing etc etc because these are primarily middle class sports i.e. you need about £1000 to set yourself up with the kit. In general most middle class people are white therefore you see far fewer coloured people out in the hills.
perhaps grossly over simplified but i think thats the gist.
I think this has been disccussed before but here my "$0.02" os i'm being incredibly frank so if i've not phrased it PC who cares.
You don't see coloured people climbing/mtb/surfing/skiing etc etc because these are primarily middle class sports i.e. you need about £1000 to set yourself up with the kit. In general most middle class people are white therefore you see far fewer coloured people out in the hills.
perhaps grossly over simplified but i think thats the gist.
In reply to FOTD:
But not all members of an ethnic minoruty who live in the UK are poor....
But not all members of an ethnic minoruty who live in the UK are poor....
In reply to Dave J: and because of that things will possibly change,
we discussed this before, but it all got a bit heated, was it patronising etc?
cheers
we discussed this before, but it all got a bit heated, was it patronising etc?
cheers
In reply to Dave J: having taught oudoor ed for a number of years the general feeling tends to be that either they dont have the money or it just isnt cool
In reply to Dave J:
No and only a small minority of white's climb mountaineer or hill (well seriously)walk.
so lets say 100 middle class people 10 of which are coloured
out of the 90 whites 9 people aprtake in 'outdoor extreme activities' if you take the same proportion that makes 1 couloured person out theredoing the same sports
your chance of bumping into that 1 person ont the hills is very remote, they are there you just don't see them .
No and only a small minority of white's climb mountaineer or hill (well seriously)walk.
so lets say 100 middle class people 10 of which are coloured
out of the 90 whites 9 people aprtake in 'outdoor extreme activities' if you take the same proportion that makes 1 couloured person out theredoing the same sports
your chance of bumping into that 1 person ont the hills is very remote, they are there you just don't see them .
In reply to FOTD:
>>you need about £1000 to set yourself up with the kit.
not true. Can do basic stuff with fairly basic kit if you're prepared not to be too fussy and use a bit of imagination.
>>you need about £1000 to set yourself up with the kit.
not true. Can do basic stuff with fairly basic kit if you're prepared not to be too fussy and use a bit of imagination.
In reply to GFoz:
Aware of that but assuming you don't have any water proofs walking boots layers that an 'inner city' type isn't going to have it would be well costly from scratch i mean just do quick sum in your head? i can sometiems wear £500's worth of kit just walking to work in the rain!
Aware of that but assuming you don't have any water proofs walking boots layers that an 'inner city' type isn't going to have it would be well costly from scratch i mean just do quick sum in your head? i can sometiems wear £500's worth of kit just walking to work in the rain!
In reply to Dave J: its a very good point that there are more white people in the uk so u will get more white people out on the hill. having said that i think it isnt a sport people from other ethnic origins are particularly interested in. im not going to hazzard a detailed guess why but at uni there are quite alot of ethnic poeple but very few who climb. in terms of percentage this is true of the other sporting clubs and teams. back home i rarely if ever see ethnic minorties at the rocks. perhaps sport isnt in vogue with some ethnic cultures at the moment? horses for courses i guess.
In reply to FOTD:
I wouldn't skimp on boots, ever. Call it £100 in a sale for a good pair of 3/4 seasons.
Sub-goretex type waterproof, in sale, call it £40
Ron Hills (this ain't no fasion show) £15
Socks £5
Assume they have some sort of wooly jumper, gloves, a hat and some sort of serviceable bag......
Hurrah, welcome to the wonderful world of (fairly easy) summer hillwalking for slightly more than the cost of a weekend at Glastonbury.......
Having said all that, I've had a quick think and I reckon I've come close to a grand just to go sledging in Queens Park (Koflach boots, Protest snowboarding jacket, goretex troos etc etc)
I wouldn't skimp on boots, ever. Call it £100 in a sale for a good pair of 3/4 seasons.
Sub-goretex type waterproof, in sale, call it £40
Ron Hills (this ain't no fasion show) £15
Socks £5
Assume they have some sort of wooly jumper, gloves, a hat and some sort of serviceable bag......
Hurrah, welcome to the wonderful world of (fairly easy) summer hillwalking for slightly more than the cost of a weekend at Glastonbury.......
Having said all that, I've had a quick think and I reckon I've come close to a grand just to go sledging in Queens Park (Koflach boots, Protest snowboarding jacket, goretex troos etc etc)
In reply to FOTD:
It didn't cost me that much to set up the kit.
I reckon less than about £500 for the first stuff that enables you to take to the rock.
Most inner city kids are walking round in that much in trainers, jackets, MP3 players, mobiles, etc. It's not as if city kids couldn't afford it really, as they always get the right clothing, but it's got to be more to do with 'cool', and not seeming to give a shite about anything.
It didn't cost me that much to set up the kit.
I reckon less than about £500 for the first stuff that enables you to take to the rock.
Most inner city kids are walking round in that much in trainers, jackets, MP3 players, mobiles, etc. It's not as if city kids couldn't afford it really, as they always get the right clothing, but it's got to be more to do with 'cool', and not seeming to give a shite about anything.
In reply to Butch:
By ethnic minorities in this case I guess we actually mean black or brown people of african or indopakistani origin (I for instance am an extreme minority due to my peculiar ancestry but otherwise mainstream white european)
I have to say i have only ever known one black climber and he is half norvegian, which as the noticeably coloured population is about 5% is strange. It may not be to do with money.
I know of several chinese or japanese climbers though their % of population is low.
Role models? Ascetic considerations? Culutural?
Black culture for instance seems to favor outward display, hence boxing or running for prizes. Mountaineering is quite inner with few to witness the triumph, and perhaps that suits the slightly shyer white cultures.
By ethnic minorities in this case I guess we actually mean black or brown people of african or indopakistani origin (I for instance am an extreme minority due to my peculiar ancestry but otherwise mainstream white european)
I have to say i have only ever known one black climber and he is half norvegian, which as the noticeably coloured population is about 5% is strange. It may not be to do with money.
I know of several chinese or japanese climbers though their % of population is low.
Role models? Ascetic considerations? Culutural?
Black culture for instance seems to favor outward display, hence boxing or running for prizes. Mountaineering is quite inner with few to witness the triumph, and perhaps that suits the slightly shyer white cultures.
In reply to Al Urker:
And Mr Urker wins the "ridiculous (and slightly racist sounding) generalisation of the day" award! Ever considered Al, that it might be that they just don't give a shite about the same things you do?
> but it's got to be more to do with 'cool', and not seeming to give a shite about anything.
And Mr Urker wins the "ridiculous (and slightly racist sounding) generalisation of the day" award! Ever considered Al, that it might be that they just don't give a shite about the same things you do?
In reply to OldManOfTheHills:
That's a good point, I have seen a few East Asian climbers, but not many black.
My mate from school was half trinidadian, half english, and from the top of my head is the only black climber that I know personally.
That's a good point, I have seen a few East Asian climbers, but not many black.
My mate from school was half trinidadian, half english, and from the top of my head is the only black climber that I know personally.
In reply to TobyA:
And where, Mr A did I mention anything about race?
If you take the time to read my post, I was commenting on city kids.
I think that until you see a higher proportion of ethnic minorities living in the smaller towns and country, then you can expect low participation. The same applies to white kids, but you find them everywhere, therefore tracking a trend becomes impossible.
In fact, if truth must be known, that statement was written with baseball capped white kids in mind, but then that is also racist is it not?
And where, Mr A did I mention anything about race?
If you take the time to read my post, I was commenting on city kids.
I think that until you see a higher proportion of ethnic minorities living in the smaller towns and country, then you can expect low participation. The same applies to white kids, but you find them everywhere, therefore tracking a trend becomes impossible.
In fact, if truth must be known, that statement was written with baseball capped white kids in mind, but then that is also racist is it not?
In reply to Al Urker: I read it numerous times before deciding how to reply - considering this thread is about "ethnic minorities" I would think it was obvious why the thought crossed my mind. I did only say "sounding"
>In fact, if truth must be known, that statement was written with baseball capped white kids in mind, but then that is also racist is it not?
No, not racist. Fashionist though...
>In fact, if truth must be known, that statement was written with baseball capped white kids in mind, but then that is also racist is it not?
No, not racist. Fashionist though...
In reply to TobyA:
Why do you think my post had no reference to race in it, considering what the title says.
As a matter of interest, I would be interested to know how many people on here come from an innercity background.
I'd almost bet it's less than half.
Why do you think my post had no reference to race in it, considering what the title says.
As a matter of interest, I would be interested to know how many people on here come from an innercity background.
I'd almost bet it's less than half.
In reply to Al Urker: Probably a lot less than half as most British people live in towns and suburbs.
In reply to FOTD: I've got several thousand pounds worth of kit, collected bit by bit over many years. Not many peiople can afford to buy a thousand pounds worth at once, therefore theres no reason why anybody shouldn't start climbing. I got into it after sevaral years scrambling, which in turn i got into after several years walking
In reply to Big Steve:
It probably has a lot less to do with being able to afford the gear, than how people are introduced to climbing. Up until recently people were introduced to climbing through universities, scouts, army, outdoor ed' centres or friends. Obviously, the people exposed to these institutions are from a limited demographic make-up (of course there are exceptions)
Climbing Walls and modern ideas about climbing (spit!) are changing this.
It probably has a lot less to do with being able to afford the gear, than how people are introduced to climbing. Up until recently people were introduced to climbing through universities, scouts, army, outdoor ed' centres or friends. Obviously, the people exposed to these institutions are from a limited demographic make-up (of course there are exceptions)
Climbing Walls and modern ideas about climbing (spit!) are changing this.
In reply to Big Steve:
YES YES yes i know i also bought the vast majority of my climbing gear bit by bit on my pocket money and from parents hand me downs.
But what i was saying was that it's a ""middle class"" sport like Surfing MTBing etc etc where you're stumped with a considereable outlay upfront and then you've got to get out to the places now i dunno but deepin the Birmingahm jungle i doubt you'll find a bus out to the country for instance.
My point was a generalisation (as ever) but i'd like to say some geezers point about physical/outward boxing running etcetc and mental/inward sports like climbing and surfing
was a very good one indeed
YES YES yes i know i also bought the vast majority of my climbing gear bit by bit on my pocket money and from parents hand me downs.
But what i was saying was that it's a ""middle class"" sport like Surfing MTBing etc etc where you're stumped with a considereable outlay upfront and then you've got to get out to the places now i dunno but deepin the Birmingahm jungle i doubt you'll find a bus out to the country for instance.
My point was a generalisation (as ever) but i'd like to say some geezers point about physical/outward boxing running etcetc and mental/inward sports like climbing and surfing
was a very good one indeed
In reply to FOTD:
you might have been able to phrase that better - particularly on a thread discussing Ethnic minorities.
> but deepin the Birmingahm jungle i doubt you'll find a bus out to the country for instance.
you might have been able to phrase that better - particularly on a thread discussing Ethnic minorities.
In reply to FOTD: with statements like
"You don't see coloured people climbing/mtb/surfing/skiing etc etc because these are primarily middle class sports"
i wouldnt blame them.
"You don't see coloured people climbing/mtb/surfing/skiing etc etc because these are primarily middle class sports"
i wouldnt blame them.
In reply to Big Steve:
I have noticed my car is crap, my van is crap and it took me 25 years to replace my sofa. However my hallway and house is full of gear for walking,climbing,sailing etc bought steadily over the last 35 years.
Many of my working class near neighbours black or white have cars the like of which I will never afford, even if their choice of model is strange to me, and many have TVs more expensive than my rack. In the poorer aras of the next town the youngmens cars are even more ostentatious and have sound systems twice as expensive as my better sounding hifi.
Its not about money, its about aspiration. I am middleclass and grew up in the country. I was taught that excercise is good physically and indeed morally (dubious!), and that the land was beautiful.
I would love to see more inner city kids black,white,yellow get to climb and love the outdoors.
I have noticed my car is crap, my van is crap and it took me 25 years to replace my sofa. However my hallway and house is full of gear for walking,climbing,sailing etc bought steadily over the last 35 years.
Many of my working class near neighbours black or white have cars the like of which I will never afford, even if their choice of model is strange to me, and many have TVs more expensive than my rack. In the poorer aras of the next town the youngmens cars are even more ostentatious and have sound systems twice as expensive as my better sounding hifi.
Its not about money, its about aspiration. I am middleclass and grew up in the country. I was taught that excercise is good physically and indeed morally (dubious!), and that the land was beautiful.
I would love to see more inner city kids black,white,yellow get to climb and love the outdoors.
In reply to FOTD: she's a black photographer who's work jumped out at me from a photography magazine years and years ago - the pictures are a few from a series she did called 'Pastoral Interlude' - the caption from one reads:
"...it's as if the Black experience is only ever lived within an urban environment. I thought I liked the Lake District; where I wandered lonely as a Black face in a sea of white. A visit to the countryside is always accompanied by a feeling of unease; dread..."
quite good - i posted the link a couple of years ago and its more to say on this subject than i've got so . . .
"...it's as if the Black experience is only ever lived within an urban environment. I thought I liked the Lake District; where I wandered lonely as a Black face in a sea of white. A visit to the countryside is always accompanied by a feeling of unease; dread..."
quite good - i posted the link a couple of years ago and its more to say on this subject than i've got so . . .
In reply to Chris Georg:
woohoo here they come spanking me with their copies of 'socialist worker'
My post was preceed by, as i was expecting such off the cuff remarks as yours.
>I think this has been disccussed before but here my "$0.02" os i'm being incredibly frank so if i've not phrased it PC who cares.
and followed by
>perhaps grossly over simplified but i think thats the gist.
because given the format of a 'forum' i'm not going to write an essay on the social ills of the inner city and class structure.
But Mr George i'm sorry to tell you yes the vast majority of the lower classes are of "Ethnic origin"
woohoo here they come spanking me with their copies of 'socialist worker'
My post was preceed by, as i was expecting such off the cuff remarks as yours.
>I think this has been disccussed before but here my "$0.02" os i'm being incredibly frank so if i've not phrased it PC who cares.
and followed by
>perhaps grossly over simplified but i think thats the gist.
because given the format of a 'forum' i'm not going to write an essay on the social ills of the inner city and class structure.
But Mr George i'm sorry to tell you yes the vast majority of the lower classes are of "Ethnic origin"
In reply to FOTD:
i rest my case.
> But Mr George i'm sorry to tell you yes the vast majority of the lower classes are of "Ethnic origin"
i rest my case.
In reply to FOTD:
wheres the evidence?
of the 4.5million people in the country that come from ethnic minority backgrounds, are you seriously asking me to believe that they make up the vast majority of the lower classes?
been into a hospital/GP surgery recently? how many doctors came from 'white' backgrounds?
i suggest you get off your arse and do some research. just because you put a disclaimer before your purile rant does not make it right.
and as for being the PC brigade, not really, i just have too many 'coloured' friends to let your ill informed comments pass.
> But Mr George i'm sorry to tell you yes the vast majority of the lower classes are of "Ethnic origin"
wheres the evidence?
of the 4.5million people in the country that come from ethnic minority backgrounds, are you seriously asking me to believe that they make up the vast majority of the lower classes?
been into a hospital/GP surgery recently? how many doctors came from 'white' backgrounds?
i suggest you get off your arse and do some research. just because you put a disclaimer before your purile rant does not make it right.
and as for being the PC brigade, not really, i just have too many 'coloured' friends to let your ill informed comments pass.
In reply to Chris Georg:
Well considering i'm at work and really can't spend my time backing up common knowledge arguments with links and sources.
Just try googling yourself
however skim reading this...
http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/Database/EALpoverty.html#Why
Well considering i'm at work and really can't spend my time backing up common knowledge arguments with links and sources.
Just try googling yourself
however skim reading this...
http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/Database/EALpoverty.html#Why
In reply to FOTD:
au contraire mon ami,
further
i'm sorry to tell you yes the vast majority of the lower classes are of "Ethnic origin
is a world away from saying that
'poverty is greater among ethnic minority groups'
take the asian community for example
they have a buying power somewhere in the region of 8.5 billion per year, nationwide, they have also the highest percentage of self-employed in britain (not surprising seeing as the prime demographic is young and educated)
remember this is just the asian ethnicities.
further to this, take the top 5 earners in britain, at number 2
Sri and Gopi Hinduja £1,836m
number 5
Lakshmi Mittal £1,310m
so to return to the original statement of
i think what you meant to say was,
You don't see coloured people climbing/mtb/surfing/skiing etc etc because these are historically, white class sports
au contraire mon ami,
further
i'm sorry to tell you yes the vast majority of the lower classes are of "Ethnic origin
is a world away from saying that
'poverty is greater among ethnic minority groups'
take the asian community for example
they have a buying power somewhere in the region of 8.5 billion per year, nationwide, they have also the highest percentage of self-employed in britain (not surprising seeing as the prime demographic is young and educated)
remember this is just the asian ethnicities.
further to this, take the top 5 earners in britain, at number 2
Sri and Gopi Hinduja £1,836m
number 5
Lakshmi Mittal £1,310m
so to return to the original statement of
> You don't see coloured people climbing/mtb/surfing/skiing etc etc because these are primarily middle class sports
i think what you meant to say was,
You don't see coloured people climbing/mtb/surfing/skiing etc etc because these are historically, white class sports
In reply to OldManOfTheHills: cant say I'v done an exhaustive survey, or really taken that much notice, but theres a mixed race (I'd guess)regular down the Leeds wall who is f*cking excellent.
In reply to Dave J:
Just come back to this after posting the thread...all very interesting, but I think that the middle class sport thing is wrong...wasn't there a very famous Glasgow based 'working mens' mountaineering club? One might say notorious...plus I have no money tey still go climbing, as do loads of other people. I think its a cultural thing, but it may originate from poverty in the first instance (hence the lack of role models.) But to say that all ethnic minorities are 'working class' or poor is, as someone else said, a load of cack.
Just come back to this after posting the thread...all very interesting, but I think that the middle class sport thing is wrong...wasn't there a very famous Glasgow based 'working mens' mountaineering club? One might say notorious...plus I have no money tey still go climbing, as do loads of other people. I think its a cultural thing, but it may originate from poverty in the first instance (hence the lack of role models.) But to say that all ethnic minorities are 'working class' or poor is, as someone else said, a load of cack.
In reply to Dave J:
Also, When I started, there was nothing middle class about me.
I didn't have much dosh either.
I just knew what I wanted to spend my summer workings on, and that was climbing.
My clothes were a state etc, but I always got to go climbing.
It meant riding a round trip of up to 80 miles in a weekend or 60 in a day, plus a stretch down the cliff etc. all with bikes loaded with climbing gear.
As TobyA pointed out earlier, some people have different priorities.
Also, When I started, there was nothing middle class about me.
I didn't have much dosh either.
I just knew what I wanted to spend my summer workings on, and that was climbing.
My clothes were a state etc, but I always got to go climbing.
It meant riding a round trip of up to 80 miles in a weekend or 60 in a day, plus a stretch down the cliff etc. all with bikes loaded with climbing gear.
As TobyA pointed out earlier, some people have different priorities.
In reply to Dave J: ::
Point 1. An HIE report of about 8 years ago showed that the overwhelming majority of hill-users in the Highlands were from less than 250 miles away which excludes most of the 4 million Brits perceived as 'ethnic minority'.
Point 2. Research by the INM has shown a very marked racial trend in peoples ability to resist cold injury or even recover from quite minor cooling.
Do you think these factors could have an influence on the uptake of winter mountaineering activities?
Point 1. An HIE report of about 8 years ago showed that the overwhelming majority of hill-users in the Highlands were from less than 250 miles away which excludes most of the 4 million Brits perceived as 'ethnic minority'.
Point 2. Research by the INM has shown a very marked racial trend in peoples ability to resist cold injury or even recover from quite minor cooling.
Do you think these factors could have an influence on the uptake of winter mountaineering activities?
In reply to FOTD:
£500?!?!?
I can get up and down a Munro with a pair of hiking shoes I bought off ebay for £10 max (addmitedly I got a good deal) and a pair of old ron hill tracksters and a jumper that I would have worn to work a few years ago. This is in the summer obviously. An old rucksack that I used to use for college or school to carry some water. I would say about £30 max. I live in Inverness mind you and have done a good few of the Munro's so know when it is not dangerous to go up dressed like this but still and all £500??!?!?
Sheesh,
Ands
> (In reply to GFoz)
>
> Aware of that but assuming you don't have any water proofs walking boots layers that an 'inner city' type isn't going to have it would be well costly from scratch i mean just do quick sum in your head? i can sometiems wear £500's worth of kit just walking to work in the rain!
>
> Aware of that but assuming you don't have any water proofs walking boots layers that an 'inner city' type isn't going to have it would be well costly from scratch i mean just do quick sum in your head? i can sometiems wear £500's worth of kit just walking to work in the rain!
£500?!?!?
I can get up and down a Munro with a pair of hiking shoes I bought off ebay for £10 max (addmitedly I got a good deal) and a pair of old ron hill tracksters and a jumper that I would have worn to work a few years ago. This is in the summer obviously. An old rucksack that I used to use for college or school to carry some water. I would say about £30 max. I live in Inverness mind you and have done a good few of the Munro's so know when it is not dangerous to go up dressed like this but still and all £500??!?!?
Sheesh,
Ands
In reply to Ands:
In fact if you look at the pix in my profile you will see a perfect example of me up a hill that is a couple of hundred meters off a Munro in exactly the clothes I have mentioned. Also you will see me on a Munro in winter wearing a few hundred pounds worth of kit But it is possible to be a fairweather Munroist for a few quid.
Ands
In fact if you look at the pix in my profile you will see a perfect example of me up a hill that is a couple of hundred meters off a Munro in exactly the clothes I have mentioned. Also you will see me on a Munro in winter wearing a few hundred pounds worth of kit But it is possible to be a fairweather Munroist for a few quid.
Ands
In reply to Dave J: Isn't it the case that black people and those from ethnic minorities don't particularly adapt well to the cold? Isn't this why they don't generally participate in winter sports?
Something to do with their genetic make-up i think.
Something to do with their genetic make-up i think.
In reply to Dave J: They don't go in for outdoor activities because to enjoy that, you need a feel for the land and they obviously don't have that, because they have no association with it. They didn't grow up with it, they know nothing about its history (neither do they care to know) and generally are not interested - its not their land.
I'm sick of all this PC stuff thats even infiltrated a forum like this. If you live in an Islamic town like Blackburn, as I do, the only sanity you preserve is to get away from it at weekends into the wilderness, and mix with your own people doing what they enjoy. No hijabs, no burkas, no skull caps, no mosques. Just being out in our once great country doing what our ancestors might have done down the ages.
I suspect all the PC brigade live in cosy little middle England hamlets where the painful realities of alien, Islamic, multicultural Britain have not yet penetrated. Don't worry - it will.
I'm sick of all this PC stuff thats even infiltrated a forum like this. If you live in an Islamic town like Blackburn, as I do, the only sanity you preserve is to get away from it at weekends into the wilderness, and mix with your own people doing what they enjoy. No hijabs, no burkas, no skull caps, no mosques. Just being out in our once great country doing what our ancestors might have done down the ages.
I suspect all the PC brigade live in cosy little middle England hamlets where the painful realities of alien, Islamic, multicultural Britain have not yet penetrated. Don't worry - it will.
In reply to Mullers: Should move to Bradford mate! You'd clearly enjoy it.
In reply to Mullers: Well the bloke I've done the most winter climbing with has a father from India and a mother from Germany. Clearly he "no feel for the land because he has no association with it. He didn't grow up with it, he knows nothing about its history (neither does he care to know) and generally is not interested - its not his land."
Or alternatively you could be talking a load of complete racist shite.
Or alternatively you could be talking a load of complete racist shite.
In reply to Mullers: who's your own people, climbers or english, white, white english...or english white climbers??
In reply to Anonymous: Not sure about that, Pakistan, India, and many eastern european countries arent too warm, Afghanistan..
In reply to Dave J:
Couple of thoughts to try and get the thread back on track;
1) My best friend is black, comes from a working class background but would now probably consider himself middle class (this is starting to remind me of a very old sketch with Messrs Cleese, Barker and Corbett!). He is a keen hillwalker but has no interest in moving up (down?) the ladder into climbing/moutaineering as most people here (I suspect) have.
2) He got into hillwalking the same time as myself and other friends who are all white.
3) On the one occasion we managed to get him up to do Scottish Winter stuff he wasn't keen on it and hasn't returned since.
What's the point in all this gibbering?
IMHO think it's more a peer group thing rather than social/economic/ethnic groups. Don Whillans was certainly not a middle class plumber, nor the Glasgow lads, nor the countless working class people who used to desert the northern towns to tramp the fells and moors each weekend.
As our circle of friends was a (prdominantly) white working/middle class group who became interested in the outdoors, my black friend simply joined in.
I do believe he feels the cold more than us (hence his dislike for the winter stuff) but whether this is genetic or just him as an individual I couldn't say.
As Forrest Gump said - that's all I have to say about that.
Couple of thoughts to try and get the thread back on track;
1) My best friend is black, comes from a working class background but would now probably consider himself middle class (this is starting to remind me of a very old sketch with Messrs Cleese, Barker and Corbett!). He is a keen hillwalker but has no interest in moving up (down?) the ladder into climbing/moutaineering as most people here (I suspect) have.
2) He got into hillwalking the same time as myself and other friends who are all white.
3) On the one occasion we managed to get him up to do Scottish Winter stuff he wasn't keen on it and hasn't returned since.
What's the point in all this gibbering?
IMHO think it's more a peer group thing rather than social/economic/ethnic groups. Don Whillans was certainly not a middle class plumber, nor the Glasgow lads, nor the countless working class people who used to desert the northern towns to tramp the fells and moors each weekend.
As our circle of friends was a (prdominantly) white working/middle class group who became interested in the outdoors, my black friend simply joined in.
I do believe he feels the cold more than us (hence his dislike for the winter stuff) but whether this is genetic or just him as an individual I couldn't say.
As Forrest Gump said - that's all I have to say about that.
In reply to Dave J:
Sorry, I forgot to log in for the above rantings
Sorry, I forgot to log in for the above rantings
In reply to Mullers:
My fiance is muslim, her family originated from Bangladesh. She is joining me in the Peak because she loves it and has a feel for the land.
How are hijabs, burkas, skull caps and mosques affecting your sanity?
You must have a very weak mind.
Or perhaps you are just racist scum.........
> (In reply to Dave J) They don't go in for outdoor activities because to enjoy that, you need a feel for the land and they obviously don't have that, because they have no association with it. They didn't grow up with it, they know nothing about its history (neither do they care to know) and generally are not interested - its not their land.
>
> I'm sick of all this PC stuff thats even infiltrated a forum like this. If you live in an Islamic town like Blackburn, as I do, the only sanity you preserve is to get away from it at weekends into the wilderness, and mix with your own people doing what they enjoy. No hijabs, no burkas, no skull caps, no mosques. Just being out in our once great country doing what our ancestors might have done down the ages.
>
> I suspect all the PC brigade live in cosy little middle England hamlets where the painful realities of alien, Islamic, multicultural Britain have not yet penetrated. Don't worry - it will.
>
> I'm sick of all this PC stuff thats even infiltrated a forum like this. If you live in an Islamic town like Blackburn, as I do, the only sanity you preserve is to get away from it at weekends into the wilderness, and mix with your own people doing what they enjoy. No hijabs, no burkas, no skull caps, no mosques. Just being out in our once great country doing what our ancestors might have done down the ages.
>
> I suspect all the PC brigade live in cosy little middle England hamlets where the painful realities of alien, Islamic, multicultural Britain have not yet penetrated. Don't worry - it will.
My fiance is muslim, her family originated from Bangladesh. She is joining me in the Peak because she loves it and has a feel for the land.
How are hijabs, burkas, skull caps and mosques affecting your sanity?
You must have a very weak mind.
Or perhaps you are just racist scum.........
In reply to Mullers:
>the painful realities of alien, Islamic, multicultural Britain have not yet penetrated. Don't worry - it will.
Why is it a painful reality to live alongside different cultures? I live in a multi-cultural inner city area, and I've had my share of "painful reality" there (burglary, violence on the street, anti-social neighbours). In all but one case, it was white, "native" scumbags causing the problem. One lot even proudly displayed the Cross of St George outside their house (just in case we hadn't already noticed that they were violent, ignorant sociopaths).
I've more in common with the quiet, home-owning, hard-working Muslims around me than the white-trash dole-scum you would identify as "our people". Hope that's not too PC for you.
>the painful realities of alien, Islamic, multicultural Britain have not yet penetrated. Don't worry - it will.
Why is it a painful reality to live alongside different cultures? I live in a multi-cultural inner city area, and I've had my share of "painful reality" there (burglary, violence on the street, anti-social neighbours). In all but one case, it was white, "native" scumbags causing the problem. One lot even proudly displayed the Cross of St George outside their house (just in case we hadn't already noticed that they were violent, ignorant sociopaths).
I've more in common with the quiet, home-owning, hard-working Muslims around me than the white-trash dole-scum you would identify as "our people". Hope that's not too PC for you.
In reply to Dave J:
I think its a cultural thing, but it may originate from poverty in the first instance (hence the lack of role models.)
Dear Dave
I have first hand experience of what you are on about. As I come from the group you mentioned – socially and economically deprived I can confirm what you imply. Most of us can not read or write, so we just look at the pictures in climbing books, magazines or catalogues. We can’t afford to buy all that wonderful equipment (no we do not steal the equipment either), so we can’t participate to the levels that the ones who can buy the stuff.
When I ventured onto the hills in winter, we did not have guide books, so we could not follow the route descriptions, it was easier just to do new routes, that way we did not get lost as we could not read the route descriptions anyway.
Yes, we had no role models to look up to when we took up winter climbing as we could not relate to those already on the climbs, we thought they must be really good.
Norrie
I think its a cultural thing, but it may originate from poverty in the first instance (hence the lack of role models.)
Dear Dave
I have first hand experience of what you are on about. As I come from the group you mentioned – socially and economically deprived I can confirm what you imply. Most of us can not read or write, so we just look at the pictures in climbing books, magazines or catalogues. We can’t afford to buy all that wonderful equipment (no we do not steal the equipment either), so we can’t participate to the levels that the ones who can buy the stuff.
When I ventured onto the hills in winter, we did not have guide books, so we could not follow the route descriptions, it was easier just to do new routes, that way we did not get lost as we could not read the route descriptions anyway.
Yes, we had no role models to look up to when we took up winter climbing as we could not relate to those already on the climbs, we thought they must be really good.
Norrie
In reply to Dave J: :: I had thought that this might lead to a worthwhile discussion of the demographics, social anthropology and basic biology relating to the subject originally raised. Now here we are in a brick-throwing contest about the class system and 'political correctness'.
(Sorry Norrie, I haven't any pictures to explain 'social anthropology.)
beanachd leibh/ma' as-salaama
(Sorry Norrie, I haven't any pictures to explain 'social anthropology.)
beanachd leibh/ma' as-salaama
In reply to JimF: You seriously expect anything other than mud throwing?
BTW. any tips for the weekend, thinking of heading up glen dessary is it? the three munroes towards Knoydart. wheres most likely to give best weather, you seem pretty accurate.
Cheers
BTW. any tips for the weekend, thinking of heading up glen dessary is it? the three munroes towards Knoydart. wheres most likely to give best weather, you seem pretty accurate.
Cheers
In reply to Mullers:
I find your message totally offensive. What IS a British person? We are a mongrel race. I for one find it delightful that we have cultural input from many sources and find it quite bland and parochial when I go to areas which have a more one dimensional make-up of population.
I'm not being PC by saying this - I'm just stating what I feel. After all, I'm not 100% British, but then my skin is white, so who cares eh? Does that make this more my land than a black person?
I find your message totally offensive. What IS a British person? We are a mongrel race. I for one find it delightful that we have cultural input from many sources and find it quite bland and parochial when I go to areas which have a more one dimensional make-up of population.
I'm not being PC by saying this - I'm just stating what I feel. After all, I'm not 100% British, but then my skin is white, so who cares eh? Does that make this more my land than a black person?
In reply to mich: :: I recall sitting in an office in Dingwall many years ago discussing "What is a Highlander?". I think my answer then will suffice in this instance also.
What is a British Person?
ANY person, for whom there is no equal as a home but this place.
What is a British Person?
ANY person, for whom there is no equal as a home but this place.
In reply to Dave J:
I might have guessed that this topic would degenerate - just because someone doesn't like religions and all the claptrap that goes with them doesn't prove he is a racist - he just feels threatened, that's all. Being PC and not facing up to real fears, whether justified or not, doesn't really help, it fuels racism if anything as you push people who already feel vulnerable into guilt and anger, and the whole cycle just builds up.
Back to the subject, which has often puzzled me too, I don't think it is a question of money, nor literacy (the odd Scot apart) but is easier to understand if you just look at the history of climbing, in which country (GB - first industrialised country) and which class (upper middle classes) it started.
The notion of doing something that is tiring, cold, dangerous and generally nasty untill you get into it can only start in people who have a comfortable and perhaps rather boring lifestyle. Looking for risk is basically odd, especially for people who have had trouble just surviving, it takes several generations to to change cultures. Working class climbers only started becoming common (oops! What I meant to say...) 50 years ago, then they blew off the gentlemen in tweeds; in a few years, if athletics are anything to go by, black climbers may do the same.
As someone said above, the Japanese are pretty active and even more bonkers than European climbers, it needs a sociologue to put it all together in a coherent and documented way. Come on you young sociology students, one of you could knock up a 10 page article and put it on the internet with a link back here!
At least it would avoid the silly "racist scum" sort of remarks and it could be the beginning of your road to fame...
I might have guessed that this topic would degenerate - just because someone doesn't like religions and all the claptrap that goes with them doesn't prove he is a racist - he just feels threatened, that's all. Being PC and not facing up to real fears, whether justified or not, doesn't really help, it fuels racism if anything as you push people who already feel vulnerable into guilt and anger, and the whole cycle just builds up.
Back to the subject, which has often puzzled me too, I don't think it is a question of money, nor literacy (the odd Scot apart) but is easier to understand if you just look at the history of climbing, in which country (GB - first industrialised country) and which class (upper middle classes) it started.
The notion of doing something that is tiring, cold, dangerous and generally nasty untill you get into it can only start in people who have a comfortable and perhaps rather boring lifestyle. Looking for risk is basically odd, especially for people who have had trouble just surviving, it takes several generations to to change cultures. Working class climbers only started becoming common (oops! What I meant to say...) 50 years ago, then they blew off the gentlemen in tweeds; in a few years, if athletics are anything to go by, black climbers may do the same.
As someone said above, the Japanese are pretty active and even more bonkers than European climbers, it needs a sociologue to put it all together in a coherent and documented way. Come on you young sociology students, one of you could knock up a 10 page article and put it on the internet with a link back here!
At least it would avoid the silly "racist scum" sort of remarks and it could be the beginning of your road to fame...
In reply to Dave J:
It seems that I am the only climber/mountaineer on this forum who is from an ethnic minority background.( Or am I the only one who has the inclination to post!?)
Back to the question of why there are so few interested in winter walking and climbing; In my opinion it has a lot to do with role models and exposure to the sport. In fact, Sikh asian culture does not seem to place too much emphasis on sport and the outdoors. this may possibly be a first generation thing. Were my parents too busy establishing themselves in a new country and trying to make sure that their children did the same to worry about things that were not in their experience ie the outdoors.
I certainly consider myself "to have a feel for the country" Mullers!
I certainly intend to continue to expose my 1 year old son to the outdoors and hope that he will develop the same passion that I have for it.
I suppose that you could argue that there is no tradition in sikh culture in this country to visit the mountains,come to think of it, its something that has only really developed in british culture in the last hundred years or so.
All of my walking/climbing friends are white, my sikh friends and my family are always impressed by my love for the outdoors and my escapades but I think that they think I am a little odd!! Maybe I am .
If you see me in the mountains of the UK ( or infact Mont Blanc this June) you can tick off your first sighting of a turban wearing Sikh, it may be the first of a few over the next few years!!
It seems that I am the only climber/mountaineer on this forum who is from an ethnic minority background.( Or am I the only one who has the inclination to post!?)
Back to the question of why there are so few interested in winter walking and climbing; In my opinion it has a lot to do with role models and exposure to the sport. In fact, Sikh asian culture does not seem to place too much emphasis on sport and the outdoors. this may possibly be a first generation thing. Were my parents too busy establishing themselves in a new country and trying to make sure that their children did the same to worry about things that were not in their experience ie the outdoors.
I certainly consider myself "to have a feel for the country" Mullers!
I certainly intend to continue to expose my 1 year old son to the outdoors and hope that he will develop the same passion that I have for it.
I suppose that you could argue that there is no tradition in sikh culture in this country to visit the mountains,come to think of it, its something that has only really developed in british culture in the last hundred years or so.
All of my walking/climbing friends are white, my sikh friends and my family are always impressed by my love for the outdoors and my escapades but I think that they think I am a little odd!! Maybe I am .
If you see me in the mountains of the UK ( or infact Mont Blanc this June) you can tick off your first sighting of a turban wearing Sikh, it may be the first of a few over the next few years!!
In reply to JazG:
Good post. Your first paragraph says what I couldn't quite get together.
If you're in the Alps I'll keep an eye out for you - hope your turban is rock resistant. There I go again, if I don't watch out they'll be down on me like a ton of wet slag!
Good post. Your first paragraph says what I couldn't quite get together.
If you're in the Alps I'll keep an eye out for you - hope your turban is rock resistant. There I go again, if I don't watch out they'll be down on me like a ton of wet slag!
In reply to JazG:
Dear Jaz
I have been going onto the Scottish hills in winter for a good number of years and never noticed anybody from the ethnic community. This maybe because I was not looking for them, there could be 1000's of them or none it make no diference to me as long as one enjoys one' self, their background should not matter.
My understanding of the ethic community in Scotland is that they are better educated and have a higher percentage of owning their own house and business than the average resident.
Norrie
PS You will not be the first person wearing a turban on Ben Nevis in the winter, a racist I know informed me that he saw one and make a joke of it, like all his jokes it was pathetic.
Dear Jaz
I have been going onto the Scottish hills in winter for a good number of years and never noticed anybody from the ethnic community. This maybe because I was not looking for them, there could be 1000's of them or none it make no diference to me as long as one enjoys one' self, their background should not matter.
My understanding of the ethic community in Scotland is that they are better educated and have a higher percentage of owning their own house and business than the average resident.
Norrie
PS You will not be the first person wearing a turban on Ben Nevis in the winter, a racist I know informed me that he saw one and make a joke of it, like all his jokes it was pathetic.
In reply to JazG:
You're not actually, although I only realised this when I met some other regular users. Posting on the internet should make us colour-blind but perhaps climbing being climbing - if the name doesn't give you a clue I tend to presume 'white bloke'. A number of times I presumed someone was male when they turned out to be women, which just shows that we all make assumptions which can be very wrong.
> (In reply to Dave J)
> It seems that I am the only climber/mountaineer on this forum who is from an ethnic minority background.
> It seems that I am the only climber/mountaineer on this forum who is from an ethnic minority background.
You're not actually, although I only realised this when I met some other regular users. Posting on the internet should make us colour-blind but perhaps climbing being climbing - if the name doesn't give you a clue I tend to presume 'white bloke'. A number of times I presumed someone was male when they turned out to be women, which just shows that we all make assumptions which can be very wrong.
In reply to Dave J and evryone else
There is an awful lot of bollocks talked on this site. And then just when you think England might have changed in to a tolerant open minded society where who you are matters more than how you look you read crap like this among what I consider to be my peer group.
Gte a life, open your eyes and drop your ridiculous outdated prejudices, the lot of you.
2000 years is all it takes for skin colour adaptation to occur. You Caucasians have all faded from African man to pasty white. 200 years appears to be far too little for wisdom to set in.
I go climbing/hill walking ice climbing etc in what are my hills because I too am British. No I don't feel the cold...uni in scotland took care of that. And mostly I enjoy the great outdoors because it gets me away from dodgy mancs with a vocabulary of 200 words who tell me how well I speak English. And the best thing about rock climbing, unlike rocktalk, is that you don't have to be subjected to the barely formed opinions of a selection of navel gazers.
Get out and make the most of your countryside before it floats away on a tide of global warming powered by your sedentary cosseted lifestyles. And while you are out, spare a thought for how fortunate you are never to know deprivation, starvation or drought, to live in a country of almost full employment that people look up to all over the world. And try to let that lift your aspirations not narrow your views.
And if i see any of my so called friends even attempting to participate in this ridiculous thread I have to say I will be vey disappointed.
The fact that this dicussion is even going on only goes to show how far we are from civilised.
There is an awful lot of bollocks talked on this site. And then just when you think England might have changed in to a tolerant open minded society where who you are matters more than how you look you read crap like this among what I consider to be my peer group.
Gte a life, open your eyes and drop your ridiculous outdated prejudices, the lot of you.
2000 years is all it takes for skin colour adaptation to occur. You Caucasians have all faded from African man to pasty white. 200 years appears to be far too little for wisdom to set in.
I go climbing/hill walking ice climbing etc in what are my hills because I too am British. No I don't feel the cold...uni in scotland took care of that. And mostly I enjoy the great outdoors because it gets me away from dodgy mancs with a vocabulary of 200 words who tell me how well I speak English. And the best thing about rock climbing, unlike rocktalk, is that you don't have to be subjected to the barely formed opinions of a selection of navel gazers.
Get out and make the most of your countryside before it floats away on a tide of global warming powered by your sedentary cosseted lifestyles. And while you are out, spare a thought for how fortunate you are never to know deprivation, starvation or drought, to live in a country of almost full employment that people look up to all over the world. And try to let that lift your aspirations not narrow your views.
And if i see any of my so called friends even attempting to participate in this ridiculous thread I have to say I will be vey disappointed.
The fact that this dicussion is even going on only goes to show how far we are from civilised.
In reply to Dr Fran: "You Caucasians have all faded from African man to pasty white"
And whats wrong with pasty white????
And whats wrong with pasty white????
In reply to Dr Fran:
Dear Dr
You should read all the posts on this thread, then you would not tar all of us, who made comments, with the same brush. Some of us who made comments are not racists.
Norrie
Dear Dr
You should read all the posts on this thread, then you would not tar all of us, who made comments, with the same brush. Some of us who made comments are not racists.
Norrie
In reply to Dr Fran:
Well, underlying a lot of this thread is the idea that we hillgoers are immensely privileged in doing what we do, and want to share it with as many others as possible. That sounds pretty civilised to me.
The low participation rate of black and other ethnic groups in our particular activities is a simple, easily demonstrated fact. It is perfectly reasonable, even commendable to try and understand why this should be so.
Simply to say : " I'm black and I don't have these problems, therefore they don't exist for other black people" is part of the problem, not part of the answer.
Well, underlying a lot of this thread is the idea that we hillgoers are immensely privileged in doing what we do, and want to share it with as many others as possible. That sounds pretty civilised to me.
The low participation rate of black and other ethnic groups in our particular activities is a simple, easily demonstrated fact. It is perfectly reasonable, even commendable to try and understand why this should be so.
Simply to say : " I'm black and I don't have these problems, therefore they don't exist for other black people" is part of the problem, not part of the answer.
In reply to Dr Fran:
White racists are despicable tossers, and several posters have said so. Black or brown racists are sadly just as bad sometimes, so dont go pompous on us.
A discussion of whether some nationalities or tribes or individuals feel cold more is not racist, neither is is racist to ponder why black or brown people are more of a minority in climbing clubs than they are in general UK society.
I fear you have been badly hurt by predjudice in our society and are hitting out a little indiscriminately.
White racists are despicable tossers, and several posters have said so. Black or brown racists are sadly just as bad sometimes, so dont go pompous on us.
A discussion of whether some nationalities or tribes or individuals feel cold more is not racist, neither is is racist to ponder why black or brown people are more of a minority in climbing clubs than they are in general UK society.
I fear you have been badly hurt by predjudice in our society and are hitting out a little indiscriminately.
In reply to Dr Fran:
Dear Doctor,
I don't think many, if any, of the posters on this thread are deliberately racist. Some, or all, may have underlying racial prejudices, it's quite possible that this is part of the archaic side of our primitive minds - I suspect it goes back to periods when different sub-species were fighting it out for survival. We also often have primitive urges to violence and so on - what counts is if we try to control them or not. Just denying the baser side of humanity is not a good idea.
If we don't recognise the problem in homo sapiens sapiens, whether white, black, yellow or whatever we are not likely to advance much - the problems will simply come out somewhere else. The world is at present going into period of increased tribal, religious, ethnic and racial tension, perhaps not in your town but in the world at large the tendency is not too rosey - denial is daft.
The question posed was an altogether reasonable one which has cropped up before and is not intrinsically racist. On the contrary to insist that any of your "so called friends" should not express their opinion on the matter is not racist but it is a little fascist - the thin end of the wedge anyway.
My experience, limited, hence the thread, is that there is little racism in climbing - err... well that's the whole point, there's not even much scope for racism if 99,9% of climbers are all white (couldn't be the chalk again?)
There's a thread about the French which shows the scope for Nationalism is still wide open though!
Yours Sincerely,
Bruce Hooker.
Dear Doctor,
I don't think many, if any, of the posters on this thread are deliberately racist. Some, or all, may have underlying racial prejudices, it's quite possible that this is part of the archaic side of our primitive minds - I suspect it goes back to periods when different sub-species were fighting it out for survival. We also often have primitive urges to violence and so on - what counts is if we try to control them or not. Just denying the baser side of humanity is not a good idea.
If we don't recognise the problem in homo sapiens sapiens, whether white, black, yellow or whatever we are not likely to advance much - the problems will simply come out somewhere else. The world is at present going into period of increased tribal, religious, ethnic and racial tension, perhaps not in your town but in the world at large the tendency is not too rosey - denial is daft.
The question posed was an altogether reasonable one which has cropped up before and is not intrinsically racist. On the contrary to insist that any of your "so called friends" should not express their opinion on the matter is not racist but it is a little fascist - the thin end of the wedge anyway.
My experience, limited, hence the thread, is that there is little racism in climbing - err... well that's the whole point, there's not even much scope for racism if 99,9% of climbers are all white (couldn't be the chalk again?)
There's a thread about the French which shows the scope for Nationalism is still wide open though!
Yours Sincerely,
Bruce Hooker.
In reply to OldManOfTheHills:
On this subject, there was a recent tragedy in France when two trainee army officers died after a bivouac in a snow hole in the Alps. The pair, who were part of a large group dug into a number of shallow snow holes, were found dead in the morning by their comrades - both were black. This gave rise to much debate in the press as to whether black people were more sensitive to cold than others etc. What was not debated much was why the two blacks were together and why neither their comrade officers nor the officers in charge bothered to keep an eye on them during the night... They were given a medal, buried with full honours and the enquiry is still going on as far as I know.
I have also read quite a lot about the experience of African troops from the French colonies, fighting in the trenches during the first World War, particularly on the Chemin des Dames, a very cold and muddy bit of the front where conditions were so bad, and the officers so brutally inconsiderate of the losses their men suffered, that the first major mutinies broke out in the French army. The reports say that they suffered more from the cold and damp than their white counterparts. Whether this corresponds to an objective reality or not I don't know.
I seem to remember that other non white people, Sherpas for example, seem to manage quite well with the cold. I have myself seen Afghan children walking barefoot in the cold of the morning when I was shivering in my duvet so I don't think the Northern races are necessarily better suited to cold... then there's yer Eskimos o'corse...
>
> A discussion of whether some nationalities or tribes or individuals feel cold more is not racist...
> A discussion of whether some nationalities or tribes or individuals feel cold more is not racist...
On this subject, there was a recent tragedy in France when two trainee army officers died after a bivouac in a snow hole in the Alps. The pair, who were part of a large group dug into a number of shallow snow holes, were found dead in the morning by their comrades - both were black. This gave rise to much debate in the press as to whether black people were more sensitive to cold than others etc. What was not debated much was why the two blacks were together and why neither their comrade officers nor the officers in charge bothered to keep an eye on them during the night... They were given a medal, buried with full honours and the enquiry is still going on as far as I know.
I have also read quite a lot about the experience of African troops from the French colonies, fighting in the trenches during the first World War, particularly on the Chemin des Dames, a very cold and muddy bit of the front where conditions were so bad, and the officers so brutally inconsiderate of the losses their men suffered, that the first major mutinies broke out in the French army. The reports say that they suffered more from the cold and damp than their white counterparts. Whether this corresponds to an objective reality or not I don't know.
I seem to remember that other non white people, Sherpas for example, seem to manage quite well with the cold. I have myself seen Afghan children walking barefoot in the cold of the morning when I was shivering in my duvet so I don't think the Northern races are necessarily better suited to cold... then there's yer Eskimos o'corse...
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
You mean Innuit I think!!!
Your story of neglect of fellow troops just cause of skin colour appals and saddens me.
I would however suggest that Afghans are a northern 'race' just brown aryan not white, and a distinction might need to be made between african culture or physiology and indopakistan or central asian proclivities.
There can be a lot of variation within one species, for instance polar bears are now listed as a variety of brown bear (according to guardian), despite being larger in size and foot and having clear adaptations for cold.
It seems quite possibe to me that when the distant ancestors of central africans migrated south from ethiopia where we all started, that they increased tolerance to heat at the same time as their skins darkened. This darkskin is believed to cause increased vitamin deficiencies if they now live in northern zones, but I have no idea if they lost tolerance to cold. Vitamin tablets and modern clothing should do the trick if the problem is medical, but its the culural aspects that fascinate me.
You mean Innuit I think!!!
Your story of neglect of fellow troops just cause of skin colour appals and saddens me.
I would however suggest that Afghans are a northern 'race' just brown aryan not white, and a distinction might need to be made between african culture or physiology and indopakistan or central asian proclivities.
There can be a lot of variation within one species, for instance polar bears are now listed as a variety of brown bear (according to guardian), despite being larger in size and foot and having clear adaptations for cold.
It seems quite possibe to me that when the distant ancestors of central africans migrated south from ethiopia where we all started, that they increased tolerance to heat at the same time as their skins darkened. This darkskin is believed to cause increased vitamin deficiencies if they now live in northern zones, but I have no idea if they lost tolerance to cold. Vitamin tablets and modern clothing should do the trick if the problem is medical, but its the culural aspects that fascinate me.
In reply to OldManOfTheHills:
I think that there is some evidence that dark skined people are more suceptable to cold injuries than lighter skinned people. Obviously, this is not the same as saying that dark skin is the cause, although a link between skin pigmentation and suceptability to frostbite has been proposed.
The question of why temperate populations lost skin pigmentation is a fascinating one which unfortunately has been the subject of many evolutionary 'just so' stories. Genetic evidence suggest that whilst skin pigmentation is maintained by selection, the pattern of allelic diversity in northern populations is more likely to represent neutral evolution. Sexual selection has also been implicated.
> It seems quite possibe to me that when the distant ancestors of central africans migrated south from ethiopia where we all started, that they increased tolerance to heat at the same time as their skins darkened. This darkskin is believed to cause increased vitamin deficiencies if they now live in northern zones, but I have no idea if they lost tolerance to cold.
I think that there is some evidence that dark skined people are more suceptable to cold injuries than lighter skinned people. Obviously, this is not the same as saying that dark skin is the cause, although a link between skin pigmentation and suceptability to frostbite has been proposed.
The question of why temperate populations lost skin pigmentation is a fascinating one which unfortunately has been the subject of many evolutionary 'just so' stories. Genetic evidence suggest that whilst skin pigmentation is maintained by selection, the pattern of allelic diversity in northern populations is more likely to represent neutral evolution. Sexual selection has also been implicated.
In reply to TobyA:
If you continue to read after "It seems that I am the only climber/mountaineer on this forum who is from an ethnic minority background"
I do comment that .( Or am I the only one who has the inclination to post!?) "
I make try to few presumptions as it invariably trips you up. The point you make only goes to reinforce this.
If you continue to read after "It seems that I am the only climber/mountaineer on this forum who is from an ethnic minority background"
I do comment that .( Or am I the only one who has the inclination to post!?) "
I make try to few presumptions as it invariably trips you up. The point you make only goes to reinforce this.
In reply to Mark L:
yeah i heard about the sexual selection theory of paler skin. Sadly sexual selection of fairer partners would be 'skinism', thus racist in some eyes.
Blond hair is also believed to be sexually selected. However the human race with their bleach bottles have screwed it up so blonds dont only breed with true blonds. It is now believed the true blond gene might be eliminated from gene pool within a gerneration. hehehe (semiauburnbrunette)
yeah i heard about the sexual selection theory of paler skin. Sadly sexual selection of fairer partners would be 'skinism', thus racist in some eyes.
Blond hair is also believed to be sexually selected. However the human race with their bleach bottles have screwed it up so blonds dont only breed with true blonds. It is now believed the true blond gene might be eliminated from gene pool within a gerneration. hehehe (semiauburnbrunette)
In reply to OldManOfTheHills:
Still on the subject of human evolution, and running the risk of being taken as a genetically obsessed nazi, the indians of the Bolivian altiplano have physically adapted over a very short period - humans only arrived in S America quite recently. They have much larger hearts and lungs which enable them to live above 4000m better than the likes of me.
They also chew coco leaves all day, which helps too, but that's off subject. It does seem likely that someone from the Congo or Senegal would find the cold harder to cope with than a Swede, but I don't know if the subject has been researched - it would probably be considered un-PC and you could get denounced by the BBC and TBA and so on.
Still on the subject of human evolution, and running the risk of being taken as a genetically obsessed nazi, the indians of the Bolivian altiplano have physically adapted over a very short period - humans only arrived in S America quite recently. They have much larger hearts and lungs which enable them to live above 4000m better than the likes of me.
They also chew coco leaves all day, which helps too, but that's off subject. It does seem likely that someone from the Congo or Senegal would find the cold harder to cope with than a Swede, but I don't know if the subject has been researched - it would probably be considered un-PC and you could get denounced by the BBC and TBA and so on.
In reply to Mullers: aka norman Tebbit
In reply to Dave J: There is some research going on into this at Durham University and supported by the peak national Park who are keen to understand the ways different ethnic groups relate to and use the natioanl park- as i understand it given the fact that the Peak park is situated in an area of the UK with very high ethnic diversity (especially around manchaster, bradford etc) there is a lack of diversity of use of the park. I know so far some of this work has been published and if you are interested enough email me and i will see if i can find some references- alternitivly the Peak park might be able to help.
ps. the lack of diversity has nothing to do with the cold
in reply to FOTD: 'coloureds' is a very offensive term to use
etak
ps. the lack of diversity has nothing to do with the cold
in reply to FOTD: 'coloureds' is a very offensive term to use
etak
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
It's true that the Bolivian Indians have adapted very rapidly. -- but the principal mechanism by which this has occured was probably through a very high infant mortality rate. Not something we should be prepared to tolerate in a civilised society.
From a viewpoint of pure physiology, it's well established that young black (i.e. of African descent) males tend to carry less fat than their white equivalents. This may be of some significance in extended Himalayan or Polar expeditions, but I can't see it making much difference to Scottish Winter or even Alpine climbing.
I really don't think the whole genetic aspect is of much relevence to this thread. The problem (and it's solution) is in the broader cultural domain.
On a perhaps lighter note, can you imagine a team of, say, Kenyan climbers, with similar commitment and training to their distance runners, descending on an unsuspecting British bouldering competition? The poor amateurish Brits wouldn't know what had hit them.
It's true that the Bolivian Indians have adapted very rapidly. -- but the principal mechanism by which this has occured was probably through a very high infant mortality rate. Not something we should be prepared to tolerate in a civilised society.
From a viewpoint of pure physiology, it's well established that young black (i.e. of African descent) males tend to carry less fat than their white equivalents. This may be of some significance in extended Himalayan or Polar expeditions, but I can't see it making much difference to Scottish Winter or even Alpine climbing.
I really don't think the whole genetic aspect is of much relevence to this thread. The problem (and it's solution) is in the broader cultural domain.
On a perhaps lighter note, can you imagine a team of, say, Kenyan climbers, with similar commitment and training to their distance runners, descending on an unsuspecting British bouldering competition? The poor amateurish Brits wouldn't know what had hit them.
In reply to jjjjohn:
The genetic aspect was brought in by someone who wondered if some 'races' suffered more in the cold than others, but I agree that what seems to be an obvious difference between the mix of populations seen climbing and that of the general public is due to cultural considerations.
I did make a similar comment to your last para, but I was thinking more of the clear superiority of black athletes in sprinting events. Mind you there could also be a cultural side to that too: when one door to conventional 'success' is closed, dynamic elements in a population often open another.
Perhaps another question to ask is why anyone does something so apparently daft as mountaineering? Why do middle class whites need to prove themselves in such a way? Vanity? Machism? It may not be a healthy thing at all...
The genetic aspect was brought in by someone who wondered if some 'races' suffered more in the cold than others, but I agree that what seems to be an obvious difference between the mix of populations seen climbing and that of the general public is due to cultural considerations.
I did make a similar comment to your last para, but I was thinking more of the clear superiority of black athletes in sprinting events. Mind you there could also be a cultural side to that too: when one door to conventional 'success' is closed, dynamic elements in a population often open another.
Perhaps another question to ask is why anyone does something so apparently daft as mountaineering? Why do middle class whites need to prove themselves in such a way? Vanity? Machism? It may not be a healthy thing at all...
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Yeah, I saw a pretty good program on the box a couple of years ago about the Kenyan runners training camps. They specifically mentioned that the runners saw themselves as "warriors", which carries a lot of status and respect in Kenyan cultural traditions.
There used to be a pretty questionable cliche in postwar american films about young black lads finding success in boxing their ... "ticket out of the ghetto." or some such phrase.
There is probably a bit of that in the motivations of many of the successful African athletes nowadays. I don't mean that to sound condescending - I'm sure they love what they are doing - but when doing what you love becomes your profession, and source of income, something of very great value is lost.
My point is that the activity of climbing, of moving through that particular environment with whatever skills and abilities we have, inate or learned, at an extreme or modest level, is essentially self-justifying. It is an end in itself. The question "why?" is an irrelevance. You just do it. The act answers the question before it is asked.
( As you may have guessed, I do a bit of running too... 60+ marathons so far. But the climbing comes first. Emphatically so.)
I hope this isn't considered too off-thread.
Yeah, I saw a pretty good program on the box a couple of years ago about the Kenyan runners training camps. They specifically mentioned that the runners saw themselves as "warriors", which carries a lot of status and respect in Kenyan cultural traditions.
There used to be a pretty questionable cliche in postwar american films about young black lads finding success in boxing their ... "ticket out of the ghetto." or some such phrase.
There is probably a bit of that in the motivations of many of the successful African athletes nowadays. I don't mean that to sound condescending - I'm sure they love what they are doing - but when doing what you love becomes your profession, and source of income, something of very great value is lost.
My point is that the activity of climbing, of moving through that particular environment with whatever skills and abilities we have, inate or learned, at an extreme or modest level, is essentially self-justifying. It is an end in itself. The question "why?" is an irrelevance. You just do it. The act answers the question before it is asked.
( As you may have guessed, I do a bit of running too... 60+ marathons so far. But the climbing comes first. Emphatically so.)
I hope this isn't considered too off-thread.
In reply to Dave J: : I referred above to cold injury and recovery from cooling amongst persons of different races. Not too long ago the Institute of Naval Medicine did some work on this that was covered by a TV documentary.
But there is more. One of the fundamental rules of zoology is Allen's Rule which states that a species exposed to a cold climate will, over time, develop shortened extremities. This is evident in a large number of arctic species. It is also evident (L L Cavalli-Svorza, Stanford) in Samer, some non-Samer in areas of Norway, and some people from Northern Ireland, the Scottish Highlands and Euskadi.
Capillary systems in different races operate in different ways. In a typical Kenyan cooling will be a priority. In a Finn, conserving heat will be the priority. Intuitively, this is what most people would expect.
So how do I know all this. Well, because I have a back-length like a small ox (short arms and legs) and go about with one layer under my goretex on the hill in winter or cycle around in a minus 3 frost without gloves, and I wanted to know why.
'Cruithneach'
But there is more. One of the fundamental rules of zoology is Allen's Rule which states that a species exposed to a cold climate will, over time, develop shortened extremities. This is evident in a large number of arctic species. It is also evident (L L Cavalli-Svorza, Stanford) in Samer, some non-Samer in areas of Norway, and some people from Northern Ireland, the Scottish Highlands and Euskadi.
Capillary systems in different races operate in different ways. In a typical Kenyan cooling will be a priority. In a Finn, conserving heat will be the priority. Intuitively, this is what most people would expect.
So how do I know all this. Well, because I have a back-length like a small ox (short arms and legs) and go about with one layer under my goretex on the hill in winter or cycle around in a minus 3 frost without gloves, and I wanted to know why.
'Cruithneach'
In reply to Bruce Hooker:, but I was thinking more of the clear superiority of black athletes in sprinting events.
The heel bones of central africans such as Kenyans is generally longer giving them more spring in sprints but bugger all advantage probably in long distance. Any advantage there is down to training and committment.
I think it may well be that people with central african ancesters may inherit vulnerability to cold, as there must be a trade off for increased resistance to sun and heat. Europeans may need airconditioning and heavy sun cream to be happy in tropic zones so its not about one 'race' being suprior to another.
However as was pointed out the Peak district is surrounded by multicultural regions, and these have high pakistani and north indian populations. Many of these have ancestors from mountainous and cold regions and though they make a high proportion of local populations are a great minority in the hills. They may be seen on expeditions to parks and picnic places so clearly have no predjudice against 'al fresco' events as such.
Jaz or anyone??
The heel bones of central africans such as Kenyans is generally longer giving them more spring in sprints but bugger all advantage probably in long distance. Any advantage there is down to training and committment.
I think it may well be that people with central african ancesters may inherit vulnerability to cold, as there must be a trade off for increased resistance to sun and heat. Europeans may need airconditioning and heavy sun cream to be happy in tropic zones so its not about one 'race' being suprior to another.
However as was pointed out the Peak district is surrounded by multicultural regions, and these have high pakistani and north indian populations. Many of these have ancestors from mountainous and cold regions and though they make a high proportion of local populations are a great minority in the hills. They may be seen on expeditions to parks and picnic places so clearly have no predjudice against 'al fresco' events as such.
Jaz or anyone??
In reply to Dave J:
I think its mainly to do with most asian, black and oriental people and communities settle in inner city areas, where the great out doors (although no less accessible) is less of an obvious pass time.
maybe the question would be more like
'why do inner city people climb less?'
and then
'why do ethnic minorities settle in cities more?'
I dunno.
Mat
I think its mainly to do with most asian, black and oriental people and communities settle in inner city areas, where the great out doors (although no less accessible) is less of an obvious pass time.
maybe the question would be more like
'why do inner city people climb less?'
and then
'why do ethnic minorities settle in cities more?'
I dunno.
Mat
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