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This a a qoute from Planetfears interview with Niel Gresham, I was wondering what grade Indian Face is?
"Q How long had the seed to climb Indian Face been in your mind?
I mulled it over about a year and a half, whilst I was injured and was thinking ‘what’s the next step for me?’ and it meant I could really get my teeth into it without the fear of making my elbows worse because it wasn’t super steep and powerful. Nine tenths of it was a head game but also you needed to be aerobically fit, and have strong legs as well, probably more than strong arms.
Q How were you training for The Indian Face?
I did quite a lot of running at the time, quite a lot of calf raises just to make sure that I was really steady on my feet."
"Q How long had the seed to climb Indian Face been in your mind?
I mulled it over about a year and a half, whilst I was injured and was thinking ‘what’s the next step for me?’ and it meant I could really get my teeth into it without the fear of making my elbows worse because it wasn’t super steep and powerful. Nine tenths of it was a head game but also you needed to be aerobically fit, and have strong legs as well, probably more than strong arms.
Q How were you training for The Indian Face?
I did quite a lot of running at the time, quite a lot of calf raises just to make sure that I was really steady on my feet."
In reply to clams: Pretty sure that Gresham and Nick Dixon have done it.
In reply to Antonolious: I am shocked at the level of ingnorance going on here, you MUST have heard of Indian Face, mustn't you??
In reply to Nj: have you heard of romantic warrior?? the ultimate north american tick....no....
In reply to nb:
what is it?
what is it?
In reply to nb: I would have thought things like 'magic line' would equate to the ultimate Nort American tick, or for the mere mortal 'phoenix' on sight or perhaps for the trad man super crack?
In reply to virgil: doesn't matter what it is, just stating if it's not in your climbing history it doesn't make you ignorant...5.12c at the needles
In reply to nb:
indeed.
and I agree. different strokes for different folks.
i`ll try and have a look for it.
indeed.
and I agree. different strokes for different folks.
i`ll try and have a look for it.
In reply to nb: Are you a septic? Your poor logic and ignarance suggests you are.
Let me see you're planning on voting for dubya?
Let me see you're planning on voting for dubya?
In reply to nb:
I'm not usually ignorant about US routes but I had zero name recognition on Romantic Warrior. Now that I've looked it up I realise that I had read the guide description when at the Needles a couple of years ago. But I can't see it that it is comparable to Indian Face in historical terms. Was it such a significant ascent - it was hardly that difficult by the standards of the time (5.12c in 1982)? Indian Face is something like 5.12d XX !
I'm not usually ignorant about US routes but I had zero name recognition on Romantic Warrior. Now that I've looked it up I realise that I had read the guide description when at the Needles a couple of years ago. But I can't see it that it is comparable to Indian Face in historical terms. Was it such a significant ascent - it was hardly that difficult by the standards of the time (5.12c in 1982)? Indian Face is something like 5.12d XX !
In reply to sloper: are you a cu*t? your comments suggest so..
In reply to nb:
Ignore him. But seriously, why is RW the ultimate north american tick? Aesthetically I can imagine a case, the Needles are stunning...
Ignore him. But seriously, why is RW the ultimate north american tick? Aesthetically I can imagine a case, the Needles are stunning...
In reply to nb: I am sorry, but I am a bit of a climbing nerd and I refuse to believe that this 'ere Romantic Warrior is the US equivalent of Indian Face.
IF ws done by Dawes at his highpoint, possibly the worlds top rock jock at the time, it was (and almost still is 18 years later!) the most dagerous crag route in the world. It stands pround of anything similar done for years (in the small world of single pitch trad stuff obivously).
RW, nobody has heard of it, or so it seems!
This isn't just a 3 star mega classic in a local area, it is Indian Face!
(come one Brits, back me up here!!)
And don't take things so seriously, this is the web you know!
IF ws done by Dawes at his highpoint, possibly the worlds top rock jock at the time, it was (and almost still is 18 years later!) the most dagerous crag route in the world. It stands pround of anything similar done for years (in the small world of single pitch trad stuff obivously).
RW, nobody has heard of it, or so it seems!
This isn't just a 3 star mega classic in a local area, it is Indian Face!
(come one Brits, back me up here!!)
And don't take things so seriously, this is the web you know!
In reply to Nj:
Speaking from a position of bottomless ignorance about the US scene, would Perilous Journey not be the nearest equivalent? Not that that's all that near.
Speaking from a position of bottomless ignorance about the US scene, would Perilous Journey not be the nearest equivalent? Not that that's all that near.
In reply to Nj: agreed. Indian Face is not just another route, it is not just another E9, it is not just another hard route. It was an evolutionary step in british climbing by none other than the man himself. Also, with regard to the dawes, i recently found out he did the very big and very small in Boreals with no chalk. What an effort.
In reply to unclesomebody:
>with no chalk.
I do find that rather hard to credit. Who told you that?
Changing the subject, supposing one were making a book on when Indian Face will receive its first on-sight ascent, what spread would you make? I think I'd go something like 2014-2016.
>with no chalk.
I do find that rather hard to credit. Who told you that?
Changing the subject, supposing one were making a book on when Indian Face will receive its first on-sight ascent, what spread would you make? I think I'd go something like 2014-2016.
In reply to nb:
I live and climb in North America, and most people here are quite right in sugesting that RW ranks nowhere even close to IF in terms of historical significance or even general kudos.
It is a perfectly fair point to suggest that it is surprising that someone posting on a UK climbing forum doesn't know about one of the most famous routes ever in the British Isles, although perhaps calling this 'ignorant' is a little harsh. 'Uninformed', perhaps...
If you posted on a Spanish climbing forum 'what is tis Chilam Balam route. I hear it is quite hard', you would be ridiculed quite a bit.
I live and climb in North America, and most people here are quite right in sugesting that RW ranks nowhere even close to IF in terms of historical significance or even general kudos.
It is a perfectly fair point to suggest that it is surprising that someone posting on a UK climbing forum doesn't know about one of the most famous routes ever in the British Isles, although perhaps calling this 'ignorant' is a little harsh. 'Uninformed', perhaps...
If you posted on a Spanish climbing forum 'what is tis Chilam Balam route. I hear it is quite hard', you would be ridiculed quite a bit.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
Surely some complete nutter will do it well before then
or at least die trying to.
Surely some complete nutter will do it well before then
or at least die trying to.
In reply to unclesomebody:
I thought Boreal made rock boots as well?
> he did the very big and very small in Boreals
I thought Boreal made rock boots as well?
In reply to Lizard_2:
Well, it's 20 years and counting. People were all-but onsighting serious E7 in 1980. Now they're not-quite onsighting serious E8. Progress is going to need to speed up to make it by 2014. They did say it was Leo's great plan to do it one day, but I don't suppose it is any more. If I had to play at that spread, I think I'd be a buyer, actually.
Well, it's 20 years and counting. People were all-but onsighting serious E7 in 1980. Now they're not-quite onsighting serious E8. Progress is going to need to speed up to make it by 2014. They did say it was Leo's great plan to do it one day, but I don't suppose it is any more. If I had to play at that spread, I think I'd be a buyer, actually.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
Your spreads are too wide, mate. Why not 2014-2015 or 2015-2016?
> Changing the subject, supposing one were making a book on when Indian Face will receive its first on-sight ascent, what spread would you make? I think I'd go something like 2014-2016.
Your spreads are too wide, mate. Why not 2014-2015 or 2015-2016?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
You mean a two year spread is more generous than a one year spread?
You mean a two year spread is more generous than a one year spread?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: I'm buying, but i reckon only a few years, so i'll say 2006. Heason soloed E10, Jordan Buys almost onsighted E9.
i would put my money on Emmett, but he used to lve in the pass didn't he? so i guess the onsight owuld be off.
i would put my money on Emmett, but he used to lve in the pass didn't he? so i guess the onsight owuld be off.
In reply to tobyfk:
No, I mean that it's a bloody sight better than you'd get off Ladbrokes in such a difficult market.
Anyway, stop whinging and put your cybermoney where your keyboard is.
No, I mean that it's a bloody sight better than you'd get off Ladbrokes in such a difficult market.
Anyway, stop whinging and put your cybermoney where your keyboard is.
In reply to tim stubley:
OK, I'm obviously waaaaay behind here. Which E10 has Ben H soloed?
And I may have this lingo wrong, but I think 2006 is selling, not buying, isn't it? Anyway 2006 - I'd say no chance. The Zone may be jolly tricky but it's not near-certain death. Especially if once living within four miles of the route disqualifies an on-sight attempt!
OK, I'm obviously waaaaay behind here. Which E10 has Ben H soloed?
And I may have this lingo wrong, but I think 2006 is selling, not buying, isn't it? Anyway 2006 - I'd say no chance. The Zone may be jolly tricky but it's not near-certain death. Especially if once living within four miles of the route disqualifies an on-sight attempt!
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
I think the E10 was Knockin' OHD with the newly demised (?) hold.
Must admit, I was under the impression that most of the glitterati had already had a look at Indian Face on a toprope; so it's a similar scenario to your thread on End Of The Affair from a few years back John; most of those with a chance have already ruled themselves out.
> (In reply to tim stubley)
>
> OK, I'm obviously waaaaay behind here. Which E10 has Ben H soloed?
>
> And I may have this lingo wrong, but I think 2006 is selling, not buying, isn't it? Anyway 2006 - I'd say no chance. The Zone may be jolly tricky but it's not near-certain death. Especially if once living within four miles of the route disqualifies an on-sight attempt!
>
> OK, I'm obviously waaaaay behind here. Which E10 has Ben H soloed?
>
> And I may have this lingo wrong, but I think 2006 is selling, not buying, isn't it? Anyway 2006 - I'd say no chance. The Zone may be jolly tricky but it's not near-certain death. Especially if once living within four miles of the route disqualifies an on-sight attempt!
I think the E10 was Knockin' OHD with the newly demised (?) hold.
Must admit, I was under the impression that most of the glitterati had already had a look at Indian Face on a toprope; so it's a similar scenario to your thread on End Of The Affair from a few years back John; most of those with a chance have already ruled themselves out.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: knocking on heaven's door? it was reported in the new OTE, not in Climber. apparently was E9, but lost a crucial hold higher up, making a new higher crux, was agree'd upon at E10 by three others i think, who had been trying it previously.
if anyone has the lingo wrong, its me!
what i meant was, with all his other hard climbs in the area, i assumed that emmett would have had a look at I.F, although i guess that was some years ago now.
if anyone has the lingo wrong, its me!
what i meant was, with all his other hard climbs in the area, i assumed that emmett would have had a look at I.F, although i guess that was some years ago now.
In reply to tim stubley: must learn to type faster!
In reply to tim stubley:
Tim you're selling not buying, if you think 2006.
In reply to john:
It's a tough one. Part of the issue is the walk and the conditions isn't it? Were Cloggy a few miles out of Sheffield by the road there'd certainly have been lots more repeats and maybe an onsight attempt by now. (Probably the route would have been done with some chipping in the mid-70s or with aid bolts in the late 60s, but that's another matter).
Still I reckon I'd short. Pint a point?
Tim you're selling not buying, if you think 2006.
In reply to john:
It's a tough one. Part of the issue is the walk and the conditions isn't it? Were Cloggy a few miles out of Sheffield by the road there'd certainly have been lots more repeats and maybe an onsight attempt by now. (Probably the route would have been done with some chipping in the mid-70s or with aid bolts in the late 60s, but that's another matter).
Still I reckon I'd short. Pint a point?
In reply to tim stubley:
Gosh. There's a lot I don't understand about climbing. How the hell could Knockin' lose any of its holds?? And it must be bloody hard without it to be E10: given the rather well-publicised video of someone falling off it quite high up and walking away.
Anyway, I still reckon an on-sight of IF is in a different league to onsighting these grit things.
I'm sure you and Peter W are right about Emmett and the glitterati (indeed I seem to recall that Adam Wainwright famously flashed it on a rope). Which actually raises an question and the best hope you've got of landing 2006, I would have thought - I wonder if Mr Heason's ever been on it???
Gosh. There's a lot I don't understand about climbing. How the hell could Knockin' lose any of its holds?? And it must be bloody hard without it to be E10: given the rather well-publicised video of someone falling off it quite high up and walking away.
Anyway, I still reckon an on-sight of IF is in a different league to onsighting these grit things.
I'm sure you and Peter W are right about Emmett and the glitterati (indeed I seem to recall that Adam Wainwright famously flashed it on a rope). Which actually raises an question and the best hope you've got of landing 2006, I would have thought - I wonder if Mr Heason's ever been on it???
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
The profile of him in OTE listed a fair amount of stuff he'd done in the Pass; if I were a betting man, I'd say he has.
> (In reply to tim stubley)
>
> Which actually raises an question and the best hope you've got of landing 2006, I would have thought - I wonder if Mr Heason's ever been on it???
>
> Which actually raises an question and the best hope you've got of landing 2006, I would have thought - I wonder if Mr Heason's ever been on it???
The profile of him in OTE listed a fair amount of stuff he'd done in the Pass; if I were a betting man, I'd say he has.
In reply to tobyfk:
OK, you're on.
Actually that was an absurd spread. Ten years to wait 'til I can have my first sip! Good job I insisted on two years.
OK, you're on.
Actually that was an absurd spread. Ten years to wait 'til I can have my first sip! Good job I insisted on two years.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: there must be some other folks up for the challenge - i was thinking it actually might fall to one of these visiting foreign dignitaries, after what wolf and that austalian guy accomplished in short time periods on grit. what about one of the hubers?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
I think whether or not it gets an ascent is more to do with fashion than anything and if I could predict fashions I wouldn't go out the house dressed as I do. That said I'm definitely buy at 2008.
All the bright young things are climbing hard on grit and not, AFAIK, elsewhere but I predict a change of emphasis in the next three years. Who, apart from Dave Birkett, has added big new routes in the hills in the last ten years? There's also the conditions to contend with as someone else said.
I think whether or not it gets an ascent is more to do with fashion than anything and if I could predict fashions I wouldn't go out the house dressed as I do. That said I'm definitely buy at 2008.
All the bright young things are climbing hard on grit and not, AFAIK, elsewhere but I predict a change of emphasis in the next three years. Who, apart from Dave Birkett, has added big new routes in the hills in the last ten years? There's also the conditions to contend with as someone else said.
In reply to Tyler:
John Dunne, I guess. And Dave McLeod.
I'm not sure about fashion. I think it might be the sort of thing that depends upon a single individual with little regard to fashion.
Be interesting to know what someone like Neil Dixon or Neil Gresham thought about the possibility of an on-sight. Having read what a very big deal these two thought a headpoint was, an on-sight does seem futuristic to me. I'd certainly still buy at 2008.
John Dunne, I guess. And Dave McLeod.
I'm not sure about fashion. I think it might be the sort of thing that depends upon a single individual with little regard to fashion.
Be interesting to know what someone like Neil Dixon or Neil Gresham thought about the possibility of an on-sight. Having read what a very big deal these two thought a headpoint was, an on-sight does seem futuristic to me. I'd certainly still buy at 2008.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
Incidentally, I can’t resist a quote from the forthcoming guide:
Dixon to Redhead: What the f*ck did you think you were doing trying it ground-up, Johnny? I mean, if you fell off the lower section you’d definitely have fallen off the top wall, and then you’d have died.
Redhead: I have to have a little uncertainty, you know? That’s what flips my skirt.
Incidentally, I can’t resist a quote from the forthcoming guide:
Dixon to Redhead: What the f*ck did you think you were doing trying it ground-up, Johnny? I mean, if you fell off the lower section you’d definitely have fallen off the top wall, and then you’d have died.
Redhead: I have to have a little uncertainty, you know? That’s what flips my skirt.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: If I recall John, at the time of their repeats Dixon was quoted as saying "to attempt it onsight would require a blatant disregard for your life".
In reply to Tyler:
Yeah but would you buy at 2016 which is what John's price quote was offering?
> That said I'm definitely buy at 2008.
Yeah but would you buy at 2016 which is what John's price quote was offering?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
When's the new guide going to be out? That might be a catalyst for IF getting more attention.
> Incidentally, I can’t resist a quote from the forthcoming guide:
When's the new guide going to be out? That might be a catalyst for IF getting more attention.
In reply to Peter Walker:
And Dawes of course on that TV programme - 'Onsight this would be hideous' (although he did seem to be speaking with an element of approval!)
I imagine they were both speaking for their time, though. I don't think ND was ruling out the possibility for all time. And if he was, chances are he was wrong: people who rule out sporting achievements in the future generally are.
I think he and/or Gresham did say that the nature of the climbing makes it very hard to onsight - hidden holds, at least one unpleasant dynamic move with a foot into a pocket.
Anyway, where's your money?
And Dawes of course on that TV programme - 'Onsight this would be hideous' (although he did seem to be speaking with an element of approval!)
I imagine they were both speaking for their time, though. I don't think ND was ruling out the possibility for all time. And if he was, chances are he was wrong: people who rule out sporting achievements in the future generally are.
I think he and/or Gresham did say that the nature of the climbing makes it very hard to onsight - hidden holds, at least one unpleasant dynamic move with a foot into a pocket.
Anyway, where's your money?
In reply to tobyfk:
I'm sure it will the description in the old guide was uselss and thats what blew my onsight attempt
I'm sure it will the description in the old guide was uselss and thats what blew my onsight attempt
In reply to tobyfk:
Went to the printers in January, launch party in May I believe (along with Llanberis and Avon)
Went to the printers in January, launch party in May I believe (along with Llanberis and Avon)
In reply to tim stubley:
Yes, I could imagine Alex Huber doing it after seeing the film of him freeing Cima Ovest superdirect (whatever it's called) and soloing the Brandler-Hasse.
I haven't a clue really, but in GB what about the likes of Sam Whittaker or James McHaffie???
Just throwing out some names for fun.
Yes, I could imagine Alex Huber doing it after seeing the film of him freeing Cima Ovest superdirect (whatever it's called) and soloing the Brandler-Hasse.
I haven't a clue really, but in GB what about the likes of Sam Whittaker or James McHaffie???
Just throwing out some names for fun.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Difficult to imagine Caff wanting to do it after the Master's Wall episode - arguably wouldn't be onsight anyway. And I can't see it being a foreigner - walk, conditions, not motivated enough, etc.
I reckon the chances are it'll be someone we've not yet heard of.
Difficult to imagine Caff wanting to do it after the Master's Wall episode - arguably wouldn't be onsight anyway. And I can't see it being a foreigner - walk, conditions, not motivated enough, etc.
I reckon the chances are it'll be someone we've not yet heard of.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: a rather good way to announce your presence to the climbing world! it would have to be well documented though, if it wasn't a sleb, you can imagine the fuss that would be kicked up if someone just claimed it!
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
Fascinating this looking into the crystal ball. Probably will be an unknown in about 2007 (sticking my neck out now!) that we've never heard of!
Fascinating this looking into the crystal ball. Probably will be an unknown in about 2007 (sticking my neck out now!) that we've never heard of!
In reply to johncoxetc.
Personally, I still reckon the most likely candidate is Houlding. Even if he may not currently have it at the forefront of his mind, he is the only person I can think of with the combination of attitude (i.e. he's crackers) and talent. Assuming that foot injury is totally behind him.
2008.
Personally, I still reckon the most likely candidate is Houlding. Even if he may not currently have it at the forefront of his mind, he is the only person I can think of with the combination of attitude (i.e. he's crackers) and talent. Assuming that foot injury is totally behind him.
2008.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
Wasn't the bloke who got thrown a rope from the top, after hanging around for hours, attempting an onsight?
Or have I got the wrong mountain/route/situation (again)?
Wasn't the bloke who got thrown a rope from the top, after hanging around for hours, attempting an onsight?
Or have I got the wrong mountain/route/situation (again)?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
It would be interesting if its onsight was by one of these talented young female climbers I keep hearing about.
that would certainly stir things up a bit.
It would be interesting if its onsight was by one of these talented young female climbers I keep hearing about.
that would certainly stir things up a bit.
In reply to Peter Walker:
Yes, but is he really going to get that foot injury 101 per cent behind him?
Yes, but is he really going to get that foot injury 101 per cent behind him?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Quite. Leaving aside the mental side, the physical side of ankle injuries is considerable on delicate stuff. I broke mine a couple of years ago (fairly trivially, certainly by comparison) and I've been shocked by how difficult it is by comparison to before to hold the foot in the right place, get the right messages from it, etc. Admittedly I haven't gone big on physio and so forth, but it makes more difference than people tend to think, especially I would have thought on this sort of climbing.
Having said that, I tend to agree with Peter that if one had to bet on one individual it would be him.
Quite. Leaving aside the mental side, the physical side of ankle injuries is considerable on delicate stuff. I broke mine a couple of years ago (fairly trivially, certainly by comparison) and I've been shocked by how difficult it is by comparison to before to hold the foot in the right place, get the right messages from it, etc. Admittedly I haven't gone big on physio and so forth, but it makes more difference than people tend to think, especially I would have thought on this sort of climbing.
Having said that, I tend to agree with Peter that if one had to bet on one individual it would be him.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
He only seems to be into bold projects that are very heavily rehearsed. Both the Brandler-Hasse solo and 8b+ solo at <crag in Austria?> were prepared for exhaustively according to the mags.
> (In reply to tim stubley)
>
> Yes, I could imagine Alex Huber doing it after seeing the film of him freeing Cima Ovest superdirect (whatever it's called) and soloing the Brandler-Hasse.
>
> Yes, I could imagine Alex Huber doing it after seeing the film of him freeing Cima Ovest superdirect (whatever it's called) and soloing the Brandler-Hasse.
He only seems to be into bold projects that are very heavily rehearsed. Both the Brandler-Hasse solo and 8b+ solo at <crag in Austria?> were prepared for exhaustively according to the mags.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
Basicaly,
Knocking mysteriously lost one of the most crucial holds on the route between 8.30 am on Sunday 16th November and mid afternoon that same day (I think this is the correct time that Ben climbed the route).
This hold used to be a good finger jug and when you reached this hold you knew you had it in the bag, just a few more easyish moves to the top. It is now a small gaston crimp which makes the crux, in my opinion, 3 to 4 moves higher up the slab and even makes the last move to the sloping ledges alot harder.
Having been on the route just before and just after the hold changed I feel I am in a fairly strong position to say that it is alot harder and bolder than before.
I am not going to comment on the grade but I will say that it took a lot more mental and physical effort for me to lead it in its current state than it would have in its previous.
Refering to The Indian Face,
Nick says he would advise anyone against going for an os of TIF. He says it is very unreadable and easy to get wrong footed, very easy to get lost and very easy to get stuck. Quite an unfriendly climb.
I hope this has answered some questions.
Cheers
James
Basicaly,
Knocking mysteriously lost one of the most crucial holds on the route between 8.30 am on Sunday 16th November and mid afternoon that same day (I think this is the correct time that Ben climbed the route).
This hold used to be a good finger jug and when you reached this hold you knew you had it in the bag, just a few more easyish moves to the top. It is now a small gaston crimp which makes the crux, in my opinion, 3 to 4 moves higher up the slab and even makes the last move to the sloping ledges alot harder.
Having been on the route just before and just after the hold changed I feel I am in a fairly strong position to say that it is alot harder and bolder than before.
I am not going to comment on the grade but I will say that it took a lot more mental and physical effort for me to lead it in its current state than it would have in its previous.
Refering to The Indian Face,
Nick says he would advise anyone against going for an os of TIF. He says it is very unreadable and easy to get wrong footed, very easy to get lost and very easy to get stuck. Quite an unfriendly climb.
I hope this has answered some questions.
Cheers
James
what french grade is the climbing on IF, i`ve heard that its between the very big/ vsmall and quarryman, - meaing it must be 8a+ ish?
In reply to James Pearson:
Thanks. Interesting, in an academic kind of way! I'm not suggesting any skullduggery, but doncha think it's surprising a hold of that type would disappear just like that? It's not like pulling off a pebble.
As to TIF, that's about what I thought. Maybe I'll be having that sip in 2014 yet. You're a young chap with an insight into these things - when do you reckon?
Thanks. Interesting, in an academic kind of way! I'm not suggesting any skullduggery, but doncha think it's surprising a hold of that type would disappear just like that? It's not like pulling off a pebble.
As to TIF, that's about what I thought. Maybe I'll be having that sip in 2014 yet. You're a young chap with an insight into these things - when do you reckon?
In reply to virgil:
Always quoted at 7c+ but in my inexpert opinion this sort of comparison is utterly pointless.
Always quoted at 7c+ but in my inexpert opinion this sort of comparison is utterly pointless.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
7b+ I heard, as someone said, a number of people have on sighted it on a top rope and they were not all 7c+ flashers! Not that I'm saying its easy or owt.
7b+ I heard, as someone said, a number of people have on sighted it on a top rope and they were not all 7c+ flashers! Not that I'm saying its easy or owt.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
Definatly not like pulling off a pebble.
It was my friend who first noticed it on Tuesday 18th (i think that was the right date). I then abbed down to look and saw the scar.
I think TIF will have to wait a while for an os. You never know though, someone coud easily suprise us all, although they would probably attempt FM first.
Cheers
James
Definatly not like pulling off a pebble.
It was my friend who first noticed it on Tuesday 18th (i think that was the right date). I then abbed down to look and saw the scar.
I think TIF will have to wait a while for an os. You never know though, someone coud easily suprise us all, although they would probably attempt FM first.
Cheers
James
In reply to Antonolious:
I was under the impression Houlding had led TIF already (in borrowed shoes)... although this must be wrong or someone would have mentioned it. Any idea where this idea came from?
RWB
I was under the impression Houlding had led TIF already (in borrowed shoes)... although this must be wrong or someone would have mentioned it. Any idea where this idea came from?
RWB
In reply to James Pearson:
FM = Face Mecca?
> I think TIF will have to wait a while for an os. You never know though, someone coud easily suprise us all, although they would probably attempt FM first.
FM = Face Mecca?
In reply to RWB:
He did MW not TIF.
> (In reply to Antonolious)
>
> I was under the impression Houlding had led TIF already (in borrowed shoes
>
> I was under the impression Houlding had led TIF already (in borrowed shoes
He did MW not TIF.
In reply to Tyler:
Really? I seem to recall Neil G 'Gaia is 7b+ and Indian Face is 7c+, but they're both precarious as hell'.
Who else has on-sighted it on a rope, then?
James is right, of course: there is quite a natural progression up to it: Master's Wall, maybe Authentic Desire, Face Mecca,....
And Leo was going so well as well!
Really? I seem to recall Neil G 'Gaia is 7b+ and Indian Face is 7c+, but they're both precarious as hell'.
Who else has on-sighted it on a rope, then?
James is right, of course: there is quite a natural progression up to it: Master's Wall, maybe Authentic Desire, Face Mecca,....
And Leo was going so well as well!
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: i heard 7b+ for iface
julian lines is no1 for an onsight of it.dont think he's that mad.
julian lines is no1 for an onsight of it.dont think he's that mad.
recently came across this
http://www.fachwen.org/seriousclowning/broadcast/index.html
while wondering around the web, find it quite amusing and it dose have some relevance.
and i'll go for, 2009 by Seb Grieve
http://www.fachwen.org/seriousclowning/broadcast/index.html
while wondering around the web, find it quite amusing and it dose have some relevance.
and i'll go for, 2009 by Seb Grieve
In reply to peterbarbeque: I've listened to that; both of them are quite admirably bonkers.
And Grieve has already toproped it (but you may have been joking ).
And Grieve has already toproped it (but you may have been joking ).
In reply to Peter Walker:
semi joking put i thought he would of been able, but didn't know he'd tope roped.
semi joking put i thought he would of been able, but didn't know he'd tope roped.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: I still don't understand this spread betting business despite Mr.FK's best attempts to explain it to me, but how many pints will I get if I say in the next five years and offer a name? That's gotta be worth "totally paralytic" quantities hasn't it?
Anyway someone mentioned the name above, but not suggesting that he might do the route, but I reckon most likely British candidate has to be Dave Macleod - he's done scary E9s already and kept his shit together on things like Viva Glasvegas which has to be as good mental training as anything. The only thing that might weigh against is the drive - as seems to rarely go further south than Yorkshire grit.
Anyway someone mentioned the name above, but not suggesting that he might do the route, but I reckon most likely British candidate has to be Dave Macleod - he's done scary E9s already and kept his shit together on things like Viva Glasvegas which has to be as good mental training as anything. The only thing that might weigh against is the drive - as seems to rarely go further south than Yorkshire grit.
In reply to TobyA: Dawes was unequalled at the time he did Indian Face.However,he DID have a rope hanging down Great Wall when he did the first lead of I. F. Does that still make it E9?
In reply to tobyfk:
How hard/dangerous is FM, didn't Nick Dixon give it E8 originally?
> (In reply to James Pearson)
>
> [...]
>
> FM = Face Mecca?
>
> [...]
>
> FM = Face Mecca?
How hard/dangerous is FM, didn't Nick Dixon give it E8 originally?
In reply to ally elsewhere:
In his lectures Johnny D is in the habit of showing a slide of the crux of FM and saying that ‘FM is not at all dangerous really, as at that point you’ve got the belay of Great Wall about eighty feet below you’.
Hope that helps.
In his lectures Johnny D is in the habit of showing a slide of the crux of FM and saying that ‘FM is not at all dangerous really, as at that point you’ve got the belay of Great Wall about eighty feet below you’.
Hope that helps.
In reply to TobyA:
John's made the price Toby, now (just like at the bookies) you have to decide how much to bet. So if you think 2009 and you're quite confident, then you say that you're short at, say, 10 pints a point. If you're right, John will owe you 50 pints (2014-2009 * 10). If instead the first onsight of IF is in 2029, you'll owe him 150 pints (2029-2014 * 10). Though chances are he'll have forgotten by then. Got that?
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously1) I still don't understand this spread betting business despite Mr.FK's best attempts to explain it to me, but how many pints will I get if I say in the next five years and offer a name? That's gotta be worth "totally paralytic" quantities hasn't it?
John's made the price Toby, now (just like at the bookies) you have to decide how much to bet. So if you think 2009 and you're quite confident, then you say that you're short at, say, 10 pints a point. If you're right, John will owe you 50 pints (2014-2009 * 10). If instead the first onsight of IF is in 2029, you'll owe him 150 pints (2029-2014 * 10). Though chances are he'll have forgotten by then. Got that?
In reply to tobyfk:
Especially if he has been collecting ten pints per point from hundreds of other punters.
Is there some sort of buy and sell terminology in spread betting. Is the punter always the buyer and the bookie always the seller?
> Though chances are he'll have forgotten by then. Got that?
Especially if he has been collecting ten pints per point from hundreds of other punters.
Is there some sort of buy and sell terminology in spread betting. Is the punter always the buyer and the bookie always the seller?
In reply to Tyler:
No, ‘buy’, or ‘go long’ means you think the number will be bigger than the bookie. In this case the punter can buy at 2016 in which he wins one unit if the result is 2017 or loses one if it’s 2015, or sell (or ‘short’) at 2014 in which cases he loses one if its 2015 or gains one if it’s 2013. If the outcome falls within the ‘spread’ ie between 2014 and 2016, the bookie will always win.
The illustration is slightly marred by the fact it was a ridiculous spread according to most people’s ideas. Plus the fact that as Toby points out I probably wouldn’t collect if I win.
No, ‘buy’, or ‘go long’ means you think the number will be bigger than the bookie. In this case the punter can buy at 2016 in which he wins one unit if the result is 2017 or loses one if it’s 2015, or sell (or ‘short’) at 2014 in which cases he loses one if its 2015 or gains one if it’s 2013. If the outcome falls within the ‘spread’ ie between 2014 and 2016, the bookie will always win.
The illustration is slightly marred by the fact it was a ridiculous spread according to most people’s ideas. Plus the fact that as Toby points out I probably wouldn’t collect if I win.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
I'm in Milton Keynes right now. I tried several walls in the locality which were either closed, closed down or just crap. I decided the London walls are too far: 1hr 45 mins each way to queue at the Castle. I'm going to start meeting Jon Read at Warwick wall as he's in the area ocassionally but hasn't been down for a few weeks. I've been trying to console myself in the hotel gym but after a couple of weeks of effort I haven't lost any weight or been able to lift any heavier weight, so I might as well not bother.
I'm in Milton Keynes right now. I tried several walls in the locality which were either closed, closed down or just crap. I decided the London walls are too far: 1hr 45 mins each way to queue at the Castle. I'm going to start meeting Jon Read at Warwick wall as he's in the area ocassionally but hasn't been down for a few weeks. I've been trying to console myself in the hotel gym but after a couple of weeks of effort I haven't lost any weight or been able to lift any heavier weight, so I might as well not bother.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
Thanks, now I know the lingo I think I'll start backing a few hunches.
To be honest I think I'd be more excited by a repeat of the Big Bang at LPT. More of a mysterious route and possibly the hardest in the world at the time. Despite the parochial nature of the mags meaning it was pretty much unheralded.
Thanks, now I know the lingo I think I'll start backing a few hunches.
To be honest I think I'd be more excited by a repeat of the Big Bang at LPT. More of a mysterious route and possibly the hardest in the world at the time. Despite the parochial nature of the mags meaning it was pretty much unheralded.
In reply to no one in particular:
http://www.igindex.co.uk/content/as_how_our_bets_work.html
I'll make 2007-2009 for a repeat of Big Bang. For now ...
http://www.igindex.co.uk/content/as_how_our_bets_work.html
I'll make 2007-2009 for a repeat of Big Bang. For now ...
In reply to Tyler:
Sent you an email.
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
>
> I'm in Milton Keynes right now. I tried several walls in the locality which were either closed, closed down or just crap.
>
> I'm in Milton Keynes right now. I tried several walls in the locality which were either closed, closed down or just crap.
Sent you an email.
In reply to Tyler:
I can point you in the direction of Northamptons finest climbing wall if you wish - it was the forcing ground for many prodigious talents back in the late 80's.......
I can point you in the direction of Northamptons finest climbing wall if you wish - it was the forcing ground for many prodigious talents back in the late 80's.......
In reply to tobyfk:
Not really, although trying to understand beats what I've been doing all afternoon. Anyway I offered a name rather than just a time period. Obviously I'm massively increasing my chances of being wrong - so surely, somehow my return (if right) should be bigger - shouldn't it?
Nobody else think Macleod is the obvious contender btw?
Had forgotten about Big Bang. Has anyone else even tried it seriously? Mclure perhaps? What happened to Neil Carson? I remember a picture of him on OTE with a little baby - family responsibilities detract from hard climbing?
> So if you think 2009 and you're quite confident, then you say that you're short at, say, 10 pints a point. If you're right, John will owe you 50 pints (2014-2009 * 10). If instead the first onsight of IF is in 2029, you'll owe him 150 pints (2029-2014 * 10). Though chances are he'll have forgotten by then. Got that?
Not really, although trying to understand beats what I've been doing all afternoon. Anyway I offered a name rather than just a time period. Obviously I'm massively increasing my chances of being wrong - so surely, somehow my return (if right) should be bigger - shouldn't it?
Nobody else think Macleod is the obvious contender btw?
Had forgotten about Big Bang. Has anyone else even tried it seriously? Mclure perhaps? What happened to Neil Carson? I remember a picture of him on OTE with a little baby - family responsibilities detract from hard climbing?
In reply to TobyA:
From what I’ve seen of LPT it has passed entirely out of fashion and is now a desert. A Stoney to be, I would say. I am definitely a seller at 2007-2009, although Steve McClure is an obvious danger.
I must say, though, a repeat of Big Bang would only be doing what someone has done before and at a level others have done or probably surpassed elsewhere in the world, although clearly there are logistical issues. An on-sight of Indian Face would be a quantum leap in bold on-sight climbing.
Has McLeod onsighted much? Not saying he hasn’t but I didn’t think that was what he was known for.
I’m afraid picking an individual would be a different market. I’d be willing to give you, say, 12-1 against McLeod being the first?
From what I’ve seen of LPT it has passed entirely out of fashion and is now a desert. A Stoney to be, I would say. I am definitely a seller at 2007-2009, although Steve McClure is an obvious danger.
I must say, though, a repeat of Big Bang would only be doing what someone has done before and at a level others have done or probably surpassed elsewhere in the world, although clearly there are logistical issues. An on-sight of Indian Face would be a quantum leap in bold on-sight climbing.
Has McLeod onsighted much? Not saying he hasn’t but I didn’t think that was what he was known for.
I’m afraid picking an individual would be a different market. I’d be willing to give you, say, 12-1 against McLeod being the first?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
I'm forgetting my UK climbing trivia - but he was with Bransby when he did the "hardest onsight in Britain" (some little gritstone thing in Yorkshire IIRC Macleod went up and put a nut in then climbed down, Bransby onsighted it, Macleod went up again and toped out (beta-flash or something?). I'm sure some grit-obsessive will now tell me that's all wrong.
At 12-1 (in pints) within the next five years, I think I can take the risk, and accept your bet sir! Not sure if I could drink 12 pints now though - let alone in 5 years . Perhaps if I offer Mr. Macleod half the winnings it'll give him the incentive to give it a go. (Or would that be some form of market fixing, a bit like whats-her-name in America with her biotech stocks?)
> Has McLeod onsighted much? Not saying he hasn’t but I didn’t think that was what he was known for.
I'm forgetting my UK climbing trivia - but he was with Bransby when he did the "hardest onsight in Britain" (some little gritstone thing in Yorkshire IIRC Macleod went up and put a nut in then climbed down, Bransby onsighted it, Macleod went up again and toped out (beta-flash or something?). I'm sure some grit-obsessive will now tell me that's all wrong.
At 12-1 (in pints) within the next five years, I think I can take the risk, and accept your bet sir! Not sure if I could drink 12 pints now though - let alone in 5 years . Perhaps if I offer Mr. Macleod half the winnings it'll give him the incentive to give it a go. (Or would that be some form of market fixing, a bit like whats-her-name in America with her biotech stocks?)
In reply to TobyA:
I think Macleod was busy headpointing it when Bransby happened by and did it.
I'm afraid fixed-odd bets work differently - you get to buy me a pint now and I buy you twelve (thirteen, strictly) if and when you win. So you owe me a pint. Email me to make arrangements for payment!
I think Macleod was busy headpointing it when Bransby happened by and did it.
I'm afraid fixed-odd bets work differently - you get to buy me a pint now and I buy you twelve (thirteen, strictly) if and when you win. So you owe me a pint. Email me to make arrangements for payment!
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
Dammmittt! This is what you get from having a methodist upbringing - a complete lack of understanding on how to bet. At least I know I won't go to hell.
> I'm afraid fixed-odd bets work differently - you get to buy me a pint now and I buy you twelve (thirteen, strictly) if and when you win. So you owe me a pint. Email me to make arrangements for payment!
Dammmittt! This is what you get from having a methodist upbringing - a complete lack of understanding on how to bet. At least I know I won't go to hell.
In reply to TobyA:
Really? I have a Methodist upbringing too. Must be a Shropshire thing. So how come you know how to drink twelve pints, then?!
Really? I have a Methodist upbringing too. Must be a Shropshire thing. So how come you know how to drink twelve pints, then?!
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: Isn't the ability to drink 12 pints part of the methodist up-bringing?
Andy F
Andy F
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: Worcestershire! I've told you that before I think... phhh - some people. No memory.
I never said my family were good Methodists, although my grandad used to hide his whiskey in the garage (although that might have been more to do with my gran, than about people from Church dropping round).
I never said my family were good Methodists, although my grandad used to hide his whiskey in the garage (although that might have been more to do with my gran, than about people from Church dropping round).
In reply to TobyA: I think McLeod was headpointing Carmen Picasso E9 at Gorple (near Widdop) when Bransby came along and, after seeing McLeod top-rope it, flashed it with pre-placed wires on the lip of the roof. It is debatable as to wether these wires can be place on lead.
I think that is the story but could be wrong
I think that is the story but could be wrong
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
It was the E7 variant, Born Slippy that the video is of, with two pegs off to the left hand side of the route...
> (In reply to tim stubley)
>
> Gosh. There's a lot I don't understand about climbing. How the hell could Knockin' lose any of its holds?? And it must be bloody hard without it to be E10: given the rather well-publicised video of someone falling off it quite high up and walking away.
>
> Gosh. There's a lot I don't understand about climbing. How the hell could Knockin' lose any of its holds?? And it must be bloody hard without it to be E10: given the rather well-publicised video of someone falling off it quite high up and walking away.
It was the E7 variant, Born Slippy that the video is of, with two pegs off to the left hand side of the route...
In reply to JR:
I give up. Didn't Richie P attempt to rename this BS when he did it with only one of the pegs and that hand placed on lead? Or something like that?
I give up. Didn't Richie P attempt to rename this BS when he did it with only one of the pegs and that hand placed on lead? Or something like that?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
It loses me as well, Richie did the direct start, but not sure what he used in terms of gear. I think it was the peg which was placed on lead. Ben tetler did the solo and was the first to claim E9 as far as i know, but youd have to ask richie...
Either way i may be wrong.
The gear ive seen used is a RURP (that falls out) and a bird beak, both of which can be placed on lead, either that or solo it...
It loses me as well, Richie did the direct start, but not sure what he used in terms of gear. I think it was the peg which was placed on lead. Ben tetler did the solo and was the first to claim E9 as far as i know, but youd have to ask richie...
Either way i may be wrong.
The gear ive seen used is a RURP (that falls out) and a bird beak, both of which can be placed on lead, either that or solo it...
In reply to JR: neither the RURP nor the pecker would take weight and certainly not hold a fall, so in every sense it is the same as soloing it, in my opinion.
In reply to jeff lange:
The RURP I doubt would but the bird beak most certainly holds bodyweight!!! But thats irrelevant, I doubt it would hold a fall...
The RURP I doubt would but the bird beak most certainly holds bodyweight!!! But thats irrelevant, I doubt it would hold a fall...
In reply to TobyA:
No! but thanks for the thought! If I was going to onsight an E9 (havent even got to E8 yet) that would be among the last I'd choose. Its pretty difficult to get to somewhere like wales anyway with so much good climbing in so many different styles and settings on the doorstep.
Interesting that someone mentioned Carmen Picasso. On the day I did that Ben was there when I toproped it. Then I placed the silly RP1 on the lip (on lead) and then climbed down for a rest. While I had a rest Ben tied into my rope and flashed it. Then I led it too. Now thats a good example of an a good E9 to flash - one thats actually E7 or even highball Font 7a+ with a mountain of mats??
James P if your still looking at this drop us an e-mail if you fancy a wee tour of some rather stunning projects in Scotland over the spring/summer...dmac
> Nobody else think Macleod is the obvious contender btw?
No! but thanks for the thought! If I was going to onsight an E9 (havent even got to E8 yet) that would be among the last I'd choose. Its pretty difficult to get to somewhere like wales anyway with so much good climbing in so many different styles and settings on the doorstep.
Interesting that someone mentioned Carmen Picasso. On the day I did that Ben was there when I toproped it. Then I placed the silly RP1 on the lip (on lead) and then climbed down for a rest. While I had a rest Ben tied into my rope and flashed it. Then I led it too. Now thats a good example of an a good E9 to flash - one thats actually E7 or even highball Font 7a+ with a mountain of mats??
James P if your still looking at this drop us an e-mail if you fancy a wee tour of some rather stunning projects in Scotland over the spring/summer...dmac
In reply to Dave MacLeod: Right from the horses mouth as they say.
Remember though - my bet with John was in the next 5 years so you've got plenty of time for some training! The odds John gave me are 12:1 to be paid in pints of beer. If you do it, I'll give you half my winnings. Come on... gotta be worth it for 6 pints...? OK - as you drive a hard bargin - seven pints then. Have we got a deal?
cheers
toby.
Remember though - my bet with John was in the next 5 years so you've got plenty of time for some training! The odds John gave me are 12:1 to be paid in pints of beer. If you do it, I'll give you half my winnings. Come on... gotta be worth it for 6 pints...? OK - as you drive a hard bargin - seven pints then. Have we got a deal?
cheers
toby.
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