UKC

What would anyone say if i put two bolted rap stations on Idwal slabs?

In reply to PKL:

Poor Troll. 0/10.

There's a huge spike at the top of the descent route. If you really don't want to pick your way down the polished descent, the first in the party can be lowered off, and then the rope taken round the spike and the remainder lowered off from the bottom, pulling the rope through afterwards.

In reply to PKL: why?

In reply to Rob Naylor: that spike was coming loose last year, i reckon an ab chain would be a reasonable idea.

dave

In reply to dave frost:

What, the huge one? The smaller one on the wall I can imagine coming loose, but that massive great thing sticking up next to the path? Tell me it ain't true!

In reply to PKL:

I don't know, but I'd hazard a good guess that before you had completed the second, someone would have chopped the first, and that the second would be chopped before you were back at your bag again.

Tis a very poor troll indeed.

AJM

In reply to AJM: Why would people chop them tho? Bet most people would use them if they were there. Not exactly a massive environmental impact are they?

In reply to PKL: This might seem quite odd coming from an old timer like myself, but after climbing on Idwal probably thirty odd times since I first went there in around '57 and I've seen and helped out with more accidents on that descent route than in any other location in the UK (and I've been around!), so I don't think the placing of a discrete rap station would be much of a problem considering the problems that it would alleviate. When I worked in the Ogwen area (many years ago) I heard this suggested several times, but it was always decided against as we knew the bolts would get chopped and we'd be out of pocket for the expense.

stop being a tosser pete.

In reply to PKL:

Why? Because some people believe that theres no need for them, and enough of those feel strongly enough that they would remove the bolts and fill the holes in. To be fair, they do have a point, you can downclimb that descent relatively easily, I've done it a few times, its not pleasant, but as far as I can see thats one of the things you have to accept about climbing on Idwal, its got a bugger of a descent.

And they would be an eyesore, you'd end up with damned great loops of abb tat thorugh them and so on. And its just as quick to abb off that flake, to be fair, or just downclimb the thing anyway. To be fair, I think my previous method was to hang the rope down there, and use it as an emergency handhold should i need it - takes a few seconds to set up and pull through, no big deal. and think of the queues as every man and his dog set up an abb rope on them, and sorted themselves out, and abbed down, and pulled the ropes through..........

AJM

In reply to AJM: Compared with the queues as every man and his dog has an epic decending?

In reply to Anonymous: now, now, rich, language!

In reply to AJM: They'll have a chain, no tat. Placed subtley you won't see them from the ground. Ever seen the ones on Gimmer crag in Langdale? Didn't think so.

In reply to PKD:
A persistent weak troll doesn't become a better troll.

In reply to Li'l Zé: As hard as i train, i'm persistently weak!

In reply to Richard O'Rielly:

You are a god amongst men. You have restored my faith in the older generation, I might even go and visit my parents today.

I've climbed there in the rain (is there any other weather in the land of the sheep shaggers) and not had a problem with the descent, but could see how it could be tricky.

Bolted ab stations are the way forward. Climbing with gear/ropes is all artificial anyway, so we may as well make it conveniant. Just got back from France, and got far more climbing done due to bolts than I would have done in the UK.

I would rather ab down and do another route than take hours to walk off and go and sit in the pub and talk about ethics

In reply to gavin g: so you would rather reduce the complete challenge of the route than complete is properly. Dirty!

In reply to MattG:

I don't consider scrambling down a shitty gully a challenge, more of a time consuming inconvenience.

In reply to AJM: Why do we Brits have such a problem with bolts? That decent is an eyesore in itself. The rock is scratched, polished and in a very dark corner. As said above, there have been hundreds of accidents on that section and as the slabs generally draw beginners, the decent must be a bit of a shock to the system after such a pleasant climb. I have had friends who have had ropes stuck after abing off the spike and because it was getting dark and raining, climbing back up would have been very dangerous. Fortunately it came down at the last moment.

In the Alps, no one would think twice about making that decent safe, but oh no - us Brits have to expose ourselves to the maximum danger when we are tired, hungry and thirsty after a long climb. It wouldn't be cricket if it was safe.

Jolly hockey sticks!

In reply to Jon Dittman:

So right! It is such an incovenience to have to "think" about things.

Bob

In reply to Jon Dittman:

As a great T-shirt once said, we haven’t got a problem with bolts. People put them in a mountain crag; we’ll take them out. No problem.

The one on Gimmer shouldn’t be there either, but to be fair it’s not a bolt but a natural thread, I believe.

In reply to gavin g:

Lots of little telepheriques or better car parking would remove another 'time consuming inconvenience' too. Exactly how far down to your level do you want to bring things? I assume there has to ba a cut-off somewhere.

In reply to Li'l Zé: my point exactly and Idwal is hardly a long day out, even if you are a novice. If you're experienced and knackered after a 5 pitch route, I have a suggestion, get fitter!

Basically different people like different things, if you like rappel descents there's a country called spain that has lots of them.

In reply to Li'l Zé:

As per my earlier post, climbing with artificial equipment is all contrived anyway. The purest way would be to use no rope, gear helmets or rock shoes. Exactly how much artificial aid is used and how is obviously a matter for debate.

I personally prefer where the French and Spanish have drawn the line.

In reply to gavin g:

What you want to do is take selected aspects of French and Spanish climbing that seem convenient to you and apply them to a completely different environment.

In reply to PKL: I'm gonna live in france, they've got a much better attitude to climbing. Friendlier climbers, less xenophobic attitude. Better ethical attitude, its all about having fun, bolts are there to enable more fun, and better mountain/crag days.

>I've never seen a frenchman stuck on a hard move on a classic easy route whinging about their belayer and not allowing anyone to overtake... sound familiar - lake district on a sunny weekend?<

In reply to Li'l Zé:

yes

In reply to Li'l Zé: don't really see how the environment is different, still just bolted ab points really, i'm not suggesting bolting the entire crag a la the french.
Is the descent really that important a part of the climb to you?

In reply to PKL:

The French less xenophobic! you have got to be kidding!

Better ethical attitude? "We looked around for the 8b's then found that we had chipped them to make the 8a's"

Bolts are there to bring things down to a level. If people do not want commitment, which for me is one of the "qualities" that sets climbing apart from other sports then fine go and play tiddlywinks.

Bob

In reply to Anonymous:

Yes. It's obviously important to you too for different reasons. I suggest you confine yourself to crags with descents within your limitations.
The descent is part of the package, like getting to the route, getting the gear in and out and finding belays.

In reply to Bob:


I’ve done multi-pitch routes with bolted belays/ab stations on the continent that are far more committing than single pitch trad routes in the UK.

In reply to Bob: I've had some corking days in the alps climbing on routes with colourful banter between us and the french guys ahead and behind us, turns out they reserve the attitude and insults for the slow, bumbly (usually british)types.

In reply to Li'l Zé:

Climbing is what it's all about. If you like playing with gear go shopping

In reply to gavin g:

Oh now you're being silly. Take the route with bolted belays/ab stations. Imagine them removed. Is that route now more committing?

In reply to PKL and gavin_g:

Is this a synchronised troll btw, or are you working independently?

In reply to Li'l Zé:

Leave it Ze, 'e's not worth it!

In reply to Li'l Zé:

As i said, more committing than a single-pitch grit route in the UK of the same grade

In reply to PKL: dunno who gav is.

In reply to PKL:

I must say, there's no need for bolts on the Idwal descent. The descent shouldn't be a problem for anyone who is capable of leading any of the routes on there, since it's not difficult at all. If beginners are having trouble, the leader can lower them off and then scramble down themself.

I have to agree with LilZe that bolting this would be bringing the route to the level of the climber, needless and detracting from the character of the route. Half the 'fun' of Idwal is that when you get to the top you're not finished!

With regard to bolted routes being more committed than the equivelent trad route, how can you compare them? Trad routes are, by their nature, different to sport routes. A 5m runout past a bolt can't be as committing as the same runout above a poor peenut placement can it!

In reply to Craig_M: We ain't exactly the ethics police, just interested why people don't bolt stuff like on the continent. I'm not about to go and bolt the place, waste of money really...

In reply to JG: read the thread! we're not talking bolting the entire route here!!!

In reply to PKL:

I'm reluctant to dignify such an obvious troll with a reply, but what the hell. Are you familar with British climbing history and tradition? If not, then I suggest you go away and read some books, then come back and discuss things from a more informed perspective. There is nothing wrong with sport routes and bolts per se, but there is a right and a wrong place for them.

In reply to JG:


bolted belays /ab stations

In reply to Craig_M: Kinda know some stuff about british climbing tradition, but things move on, and we tend not to, for example, the landrover...

In reply to PKL:

heap of shit.

I want to live in the 21st century

I know what i meant! Was in response to the 'bolted belays' point Gav made above, and his comparison of trad and sport grades. Sorry for confusion! Have no realised that he meant belays for lowering people off! It's been a long day.

Anyway, back to the topic , can there really be any justification for bolting the descent gully? It's far quicker to scramble down (which is easy if you go to the very far end of the ledge and down toward the corner of the gully) than faff getting a rope out anyway. Is it justfiable to damage the rock and environment to just add a bit of conveniance to climbers?

In reply to JG:
>. Is it justfiable to damage the rock and environment to just add a bit of conveniance to climbers?

In most cases, Stanage for example, bolted ab-points would prevent much erosion of paths.

In reply to PKL: when the queues build up too much you could resin a couple of staples into the traverse off the other end of the ledge . . .

In reply to gavin g: hmmm, don't know about stanage!

In reply to gavin g:

You must be doubled up on the floor by now. I'm surprised you can even get back up to type.

What??

Ab points on Stanage? Rather than walk down a descent route, get people abseiling again and again down the same piece of rock?? This will also promote group abseiling with kids in hiking boots damaging the rock?? Paths can be remade, reseeded or protected with flagstones etc.. The rockface can't.

Besides, there's no need for bolts on Stanage, there are very few routes without bomber sling belays.

In reply to JG: dunno where this thread is going... :o$

In reply to PKL:

Yeah, good point - back to the topic:

Bolting idwal descent = Big no no

In reply to PKL:

Just because you can do something does not mean that you have to do it. There is no need for bolts on British mountain crags as the rock tends to be fractured enough to afford alternatives. If a party cannot cope with the descent from the top of the Idwal slabs then what are they doing in the mountains?

In the end bolting things like this are just convenience measures that say "I can't be arsed".

Bob

In reply to JG:

All human interaction with the environment alters it in some way; it is unfortunate, but unavoidable. Climbing and descending rock routes will inevitably damage it. In some cases bolts will help prevent this, you can’t say bolts are bad for the environment full stop.

I am going to go and cut a tree down for every time somebody uses the spurious environmental argument against bolts

In reply to Bob:

And?

Do you walk from your house to the crag?

In reply to PKL:

It would probably begin with 'F'.

And whilst PKL may live under a bridge, the discussion about the Idwal descent route is worth having - and it's a point I made in my descents list on the top ten page (though if PKL is on about the slabs themselves, someone needs to stand on his fingers while wearing nailed boots).

In a small country like the one we live in, where climbable rock is a finite resource (France and Spain have orders of magnitude more rock to go and play on) then it ill behoves us to start drilling hither and yon just because it suits us at this moment so to do - all the more so when the traditions and history of climbing in the UK are considered. This sort of legacy can't be bought and is something of which we should be rightly proud.

On the other hand, it isn't an average location; it's something of a special case. It gets a lot of beginners going down it, it's polished and very slippy in the wet. Anyone with any experience and/or confidence will downclimb anyway because it's so much faster, but for beginners an abseil point could be a godsend (and not every team that climbs on the slabs has the benefit of an experienced leader, I did some of my very first climbs there with a similarly inexperienced partner). I'd be interested to know two sorts of statistics (though one is only ever going to be anecdotal): how many accidents are there at that point (and not all of these will be full on rescue affairs) and how many people have been held up at that point because of slow teams? And would an abseil point be so much more intrusive than the arrows scratched into the rock showing you where to go to find the descent route? I don't think so.

So an informed debate would be worth having. On balance, I suspect I'd come down against it but I think the case is a close one, and I think the point that swings me over to the 'anti' side is the danger of copying this in other locations which don't have the features that make Idwal something of a special case.

T.

In reply to PKL:

We're not saying bolts are wrong, just that they have their time and place.

Why place bolts where they aren't necessery?

There will always be debate about where bolts are and aren't 'allowed', which is why there are lots of general rules like 'No bolts on Grit' etc...

Without bolts half the amazing grade 8+ routes would never have been climbed. But there is no place for bolts on Grit or Mountain routes, particularly those that have adequate traditional protection.

In reply to gavin g:

In one particular instance, yes. But in general, like almost everyone else I will drive.

Either you are a very persistent troll or you just do not understand why bolts are not needed.

Oh, and I do climb bolt protected routes on a fairly regular basis so I am not rabidly anti-bolt.

Bob

In reply to Tony Buckley:

Points well made, but why do we see so many people on Idwal who aren't prepared or experienced enough for the downclimb? It's not like it's the only place to climb VD in Snowdonia. When you're at the top you're only halfway there!

The first time i did Idwal I must admit that I had a mare with the descent, but in hindsight I hadn't read the gudie and thought I'd just follow someone else down. If I point someone at Idwal now I make sure they know what they are undertaking.

In reply to JG:

I think Idwal is, and will always be, an attractive place for beginners because it's not steep, not exposed, there are few route finding difficulties and leader and second can keep in visual contact almost all the time. This makes it a whole lot less intimidating than many other classics such as amphitheatre buttress, spiral stairs and outside edge, and a whole lot less effort to get to than, say, grooved arete,

T.

In reply to Bob:

You may not want bolts, but you probably wouldn't be climbing there anyway. I probably won't ever go there again, but plenty of people would appreciate them.

I would prefer climbing to be much more accessable, not just restricted to people with beards

In reply to gavin g:

I'll admit that I haven't climbed at Idwal for some years, but I really don't remember the descent being that difficult, unless of course you require wheelchair access. Has something changed in the intervening years?

In reply to gavin g:

I'd prefer it if you could come up with some kind of substantive argument. So much for preferences, eh?

In reply to gavin g:

Well the beard went a long time ago along with the rest of my hair.

You only get out what you put in. Climbing is as accessible as the participant wishes it to be. If they want convenience then head to the local climbing wall. If they wish to climb outside then in this country there are two options: bolted limestone with all its nice "safe" convenient fixed gear or naturally protected crags with all that entails.

On a slightly different note, who will be responsible for the bolts? You, the mountain rescue, the BMC? What happens when the bolts degrade or the piece of rock they are placed in succumbs to freeze-thaw and becomes unstable? The mountain environment is not a static one. Our society is becoming increasingly litigous (unfortunately IMO) and if there is an accident then it has to be someone's fault. Hasn't it?

Solution? If someone is nervous about soloing down the, short, descent then their partner should place a short sling over the afore-mentioned spike and belay them down. If necessary the first down can provide a belay for the second. A flick of the rope will unseat the sling. It's called thinking.

Bob

In reply to gavin g:


I would prefer people to leave mountains in much the same state that they find them and who don't regard them as a mere sporting resource to be 'tidied up' for a consumer generation.

Fancy giving the scree slopes a bit of a hoover too??

In reply to Bob:

No worse than the pegs that can be found all over the place, which you use at your own risk. not saying that's going to stop someone gettin litigous over it, but dodgy fixed gear has been part and parcel of leading trad for years.

In reply to PKL:
If my not too dependable memory serves me right didn't somebody place abseil chains in this spot - sometime in the 1980s?
The first that most people knew about this was when a letter appeared in one of the climbing mags - (no internet in those days) - informing the owners/placers of said chains that they could collect them from an address somewhere in Wales where they were being stored by the person who had removed them.
I'd imagine that the same thing would happen today.

pmc

In reply to GFoz:


I normally kick some of the rocks down if I have to walk anywhere.

If I was abbing, it would be different

In reply to Bob:

Ah, but Bob, people seem to want to be able to climb without thinking these days.

to Craig_M - yeah I was just thinking the same thing. First time I went down it was aged 14 and various times since. Has it really got so difficult?

In reply to Carless:


In my day we used to get up three hours before we we went to bed, walk 20 miles to the pit, work an 18 hour shift and all we had to eat was a lump off coal... etc.

In reply to richardh:

There is a difference between fixed gear on a route, which is almost expected to degrade in a climate such as ours, and gear placed explicitly to make something convenient.

Bob

In reply to gavin g:

If you can manage it, do you think you could take a break from trying (and failing miserably) to be funny and explain to us just what exactly are the major difficulties of the descent that they should require fixed gear?

In reply to Craig_M:

I would really like to be able to post something as funny as your wheelchair access post one day.

I never had a problem with the descent, I can't really remebmer it too well.

I think bolted ab-points are a good idea in general, to make life easier for everyone, and to get more climbing in

In reply to Craig_M:

I'd like a big death slide from the top of the Rannoch Wall to the lounge bar of the Kingy. It should have wee buttons at the top of the slide to place your order so its ready when you arrive.

If you disagree your an Ay Leetist. With a beard.

In reply to Carless:

I don't think so. The first time I went down it (about 5 years ago, when I hadn't done much on anything but sandstone) I found it intimidating enough to lower off on a rope around the big spike, but subequently wondered what I was fussing about. It looks worse than it is: you just have to pay attention to where you're putting your feet.

In reply to PKL:

How about the counter argument that an ab station could make the descent more dangerous. Here are a few reasons why:

Abseiling is one of the most dangerous activities in climbing from accident stats.
The rock directly below the ledge is hardly the most sound in the world.
The Idwall descent keeps a lot of people away who other wise might get into trouble or cause more congestion.

Seems to me a lot of the problems on this descent are due to poor route choice (there are much better VD's about for beginners), people forgetting torches, inexperienced leaders not able to instil confidence in seconds (the start of the descent is steep but much easier than it looks and OK once you get going). The best thing to do with Idwall is get up early avoid the queues and enchain with routes above and bypass the descent. Add the tradition of British Crags and I think this particular case has few real merits even if other cases, say where you bypass loose rock, do.

In reply to gavin g:

I see, so it's not about safety or overcoming difficulties, it's about convenience? I can only hope you don't really think like that and are just arguing for your own amusement. If you do really think that way, then maybe you should examine your reasons for climbing and re-assess the best location for you to fulfil your needs.

In reply to Craig_M:

I refer you to your first post on this thread. You were right. The evidence is pretty incontrovertible. No discernible sign of synaptic activity.

For however said the attraction of Idwal is that when you're at the top you're only half way there: you're in the ogwen valley, not attempting everest! You might go out for a fun day down climbing minging scrambles, but for myself I prefer to go climbing, but then I always was odd like that.

whoever even

In reply to Craig_M:


I would like to see you in charge of climbing in this country. Perhaps you could give everyone interested in taking up climbing a test to see what his or her motivations were. If they didn't fit in with yours then they shouldn't be allowed on the rock.

In reply to Tony Buckley: Interesting topic and as you say Tony, worth a proper debate at least. At this stage I am in to minds about having a rap point although I learn slightly towards not having one. I was on Idwal slabs on Monday with two other people. One was a total beginner and the other had never led any routes although has done a reasonable amount of seconding. We didn't come off the back until around 8pm and it had been raining for about 30 minutes by this point. The scramble up to the down climb was pretty interesting at points because everything is so polished when its wet its as grippy as vaseline coated glass. When we got to the down climb we were all very apprehensive about doing it, the light was going, we'd been out climbing since 8.30am so were quite tired and we would have really appreciated a bolt to ab off.

I don't recall seeing an obvious flake that lots of people have referred to on this thread so to get down I used a rock placement and some an older tape so we could get down safely. We didn't abseil down as such but doubled the rope through and had it running through a petzl shunt attached to the harness. We still down climbed but having the support from the shun took the edge of any risk in our minds.

So to get us off safely I lost a few quids worth of gear, which is fine, its my arse. But the important things is the lesson learnt by the other two guys. They have now been in a situation that they recognised was dangerous, options were discussed and they understood what we did, why we did it and the fact that your life is more important than £5 worth of gear. So if there had been an ab station there, that's a lesson they would not have learnt which could one day save their life.

Certainly an ab station would be great from my perspective but on think on balance its best with out one.

In reply to Jon Dittman:

Havent seen this thread for a while, but heh......... aplogies for dragging this thread back about 50 posts...........

Dangerous in the rain - surely, it can be no more than a mod to climb down, so even in the rain it can be no more than mod/diff to climb up?

As for the alps, since i've not been there yet, I'm not in a position to comment on whether it would have been made safe or not.........

And as for whoever asked whether I had seen the chain at the top of Gimmer, I'm afraid I've never, through circumstance, been there - could you describe, so I can imagine a better idea of what you are proposing?

The person to say they couldn't see the spike - really? Its, as far as I remember, a fairly large spike pretty much at the point where I would have started to think of it as a downclimb rather than a downscramble - if I remember right, you scramble up and left for a while, and then you move left for a bit overlooking the top of the descent gully, and move along a fairly clear path on the level there, and then you reach a bit where its fairly obviously a downwards climb/scramble from there, and theres a big flake there. Possibly my memory is fading, but I seem to remember it being as obvious as anything.

AJM

In reply to AJM: Aye, 'tis huge.

In reply to AJM: for me the down climb is all part of the experience, and in a way makes it good for novices, it teaches them that the days not over until your getting pished in the pub.



Id say dont put anytjing there, its not like is the in pinn, the down climb is easy and protectable, and there are options to set up an abseil.

Cheers

In reply to Iain Ridgway: Agree about the downclimbing and learning to protect it; Agree there are options for abseiling too. Further, there are other ways off that level of the slabs too:- 1. Up into Cwm Cneifion. 2. Traverse ledges in the direction of the Kitchen then descend on far side by Idwal Stream. Arguments for bolting stem from convenience only, a desire to get down quickly...Get another route in....Go to the pub...

In reply to PKL:

As bob pointed out, bolts may speak volumes about 'not being arsed'. But at the end of the day, you have to climb the bugger to reach the lower off, and I for one don't consider abbing on dodgy gear, or leaving lots of gucci gear behind, good sport. If i fall off on the way up, fair play i failed. If i fall off on the way down then I'd be getting a slagging from you lot for being a muppet anyway.

In reply to Anonymous:

That was O'Sul not logged in by the way

In reply to PKL:

You should climb the continuation wall then holly wall (i think) then upper glyder cliff then walk off anyway you lazy bastards. Its really just one big route, if you ab off or descend after idwal its cheating and slack.
And if people have climbed there for years without bolts then why the hell do YOU need them all of a sudden. Dont be such an arsehole.

In reply to Anonymous: As before noted previously, you don't need to ab off. If you aren't equal to the route - and that includes the descent - (not only the physical ability but also the aptitude) then perhaps it would be wise advice that you should climb elsewhere until you are ready to accept the challenges and the hazards. You accept the hazards of leading on the Slabs with natural protection and not bolts, so what is the difference between using natural gear to protect the ab....or even finding another descent? If bolts are installed, they won't be there for very long before someone removes them....so you will still have to sort a descent out!

In reply to Anonymous:

Since there are already two valid alternatives: simply downclimb an easy if slightly loose corner/gully; or use a short sling on the flake that has been mentioned that lies above the descent; then there is no case proven for placing a couple of bolts and a chain. Using such a placement would be slower and more involved than either of the existing alternatives and, if all parties on the slabs used them to abseil from, would cause unnecessary queueing on the ledges above the descent.

Bob

In reply to Anonymous:

No need at all to leave gear behind if you protect the descent with a rope.

In reply to PKL:

I agree it's a nasty little descent, but not unduly difficult. The aforementioned rock spike is there and right where you need it. I have come down this route dozens of times over the last 20 years or so. If the party was competant everyone down climbed solo, if there was a weaker member then they down climbed on a rope with a more experienced belayer above. I must admit that in foul weather and icy rock we have protected the last climber down using the spike as a running belay, and so long as you have taken a bit of care and fore thought it is easy to pull the rope down afterwards without leaving gear behind.

Having said this I wouldn't have an ethical problem with a chain belay or metal spike in exceptional cicumstances such as this with a bad accident record. It's all very well saying novices shouldn't be there if they can't handle it. The fact remains that they will continue to be attracted to the slabs because of the range of low grade climbs, so why not make things a bit safer for them? I appreciate however that the question of maintenance of fixed gear is a thorny legal problem.

Swanage has sea cliffs where fixed abseil spikes are regularly used. So far as I know no-one is responsible for maintaining them, and some have been there so long it is unlikely that there is any record of who placed them. Most are pretty thick and long stakes, and are unlikely to rust away quickly, however the onous is on each party using them to check them and back them up with additional gear.

The same comment applies in Spain and France where fixed abseils are common. If there is ANY doubt, back it up.

In reply to gavin g:

I used to think you were a troll, I've changed my mind. You're actually a real life moron aren't you?

In reply to Anonymous:
>It's all very well saying novices shouldn't be there if they can't handle it. The fact remains that they will continue to be attracted to the slabs because of the range of low grade climbs, so why not make things a bit safer for them?

On the face of it, it appears a strong moral argument for installing fixed equipment but the difficulty with this argument is the fact that when it is closely examined it isn't that good. Sooner or later a novice will have to face a situation where their existing skills aren't good enough...putting in place a strategy to protect them here - a bolted abseil point - won't allow them to develop the necessary skills to deal with a similar situation somewhere-else. Similarly, facing up to the realisation that they haven't got the skills to deal with a specific situation, for example an abseil or awkward downclimb, is no bad thing, it often leads to asking for training or instruction (formal or informal) and so a safer climber. I can't think of a situation in any other aspect of climbing where lack of a particular skill would be used as an excuse not to improve knowledge. Another factor is that a climber still has to have basic abseiling skills to use a fixed abseil. Knowing how to abseil safely is a key skill, not only knowing how to control the ropes but also how to set up a safe abseil. If novices are introduced to climbing then it is imperative that all aspects of ascending and descending are 'taught'. The traditional 'apprenticeship' and the formal courses both stress the need to acquire the full range of skills. Those who choose to climb accept the consequences of their actions...ignorance is not an excuse.


In the above cases this is the prevailing ethic, it isn't the ethic on the Slabs.

A final thought. A recent letter to Trail magazine suggested that the Cuillin could be turned into a via ferrata because it would allow more people to do it. The writer felt that because they didn't have the skills to do it safely now then the challenges and hazards should be reduced to a level at which they could participate. It conveniently ignored the reality that the skills and the experience to deal with the challenges can be learnt; instead it was the prevailing 'I want it now' selfishness which was evident. Judge for yourself where this abseiling proposal belongs.
Regards

In reply to Removed User:
>Good points Jan.

My concern however is that inexperienced novices will continue to come to grief here because they have been lured by a false sense of security onto the slabs. Many are likely to be caught by surprise by this "sting in the tail" at a time when they are tired and wanting to get down.

I don't know what the solution is. I agree nanying people is not good for them or their mountain skills in the long run. Maybe a boldly printed warning in the guide books about the descent would be advisable? - I have just looked at my Climber's Club one. It starts with the statement that the Slabs are by tradition "a proving ground for those taking their first steps in the sport". However the description of the descent called Easy Way gives no hint of the problem, and the very name is perhaps a little misleading?

In reply to Removed User:

Well said. Plus as I said earlier abseil stations in a location like that could actually increase accident rates. The slabs are already overcrowded and are a bit of a lost cause in the afternoon on busy weekends. I've even had problems with my own club getting stuck in queues up there due to someone prefering the routes to the slightly harder Sub Cnefion Rib despite the later being in the sun, no queues and having a walking descent.

Someone else mentioned the descent on the right (west) of the slabs. It can be done but its not something I'd recommend. There are several worthwhile easy rock climbs and scrambles between the continuation wall and the grey slab area that are regarded as too easy for more than a passing mention in modern guides. Close to a road these would be a honeypot. These give an alternative way into Cwm Cnefion.

In reply to Anonymous:

The guide continues: "...first steps in the sport; however, they may not be suitable for total beginners". I would agree that the name of the usual descent is misleading but it is somewhat revisionist to rename things just because it may not fit your own concepts. The guide does mention a "steep gully" perhaps it could be extended to include "loose and potentially serious" or similar.

There is a new edition of the Idwal guide in preparation so go to the CC website and find the email address of the guidebook editors and ask them to include a statement to that effect. If you decide not to then I would not expect you to then criticise the CC for any omission in this respect.

Bob

In reply to Craig_M:


You've got me there, how can I possibly come back to such an incisive and witty comment? Err, you’re a nincompoop

I’m planning on going climbing this weekend but might need to reassess what my motivations are. Wanting to have fun is normally the prime factor, but I feel this may not be acceptable to you?

In reply to Anonymous: Quite agree about novices coming to grief here and, again, I'm not sure how in terms of practicalities it could be avoided. Reading guidebooks, as I've found to my cost on more than one occasion, is a skill in itself. The debate in Scotland about the descent routes from the Ben seems very similar and despite the publicity and the very prominent warnings in guidebooks and elsewhere, there are still casualties. It is depressing when considering that experience is too often 'the sum of near misses'. The only other alternative I can think of would involve warning signs at the start of the walk-ins (next to the weather forecast at the Cottage) or at the base of the Slabs, the latter hardly in line with the prevailing ethic either.

In reply to gavin g:

Having fun is fine, bolting the mountains for your personal convenience isn't. However, I expect another lame collection of excuses as this concept is obviously far too difficult for you to grasp.

In reply to Anonymous:

If they were lured onto any route other than Ordinary, then this sense of security would quickly be shattered on the first pitch, since anyone expecting gear every couple of metres will be sadly disappointed. Anyone who can cope with the runouts on Faith, Hope and Charity should have little trouble with the descent I'd have thought.

Thanks Bob, I have done just that.

In reply to Craig_M:

It’s not a case of making excuses or not grasping the concept, I simply disagree with you.

Why are people having such a problem with two simple time-consuming, accident-avoiding bolts with a chain between.

Point 1: Yes, they would damage the rock slightly, but they would save those two flakes from being eroded and eventually coming away, leaving an even worse descent.

Point 2: that wall IS used for begginners. It was one of my first lead climbs, and i have climbed that in the snow. Remember that some people are not as happy with these sort of things as you.

Yes bolts can be an eyesaw, but it's not as if he's planning on bolting the entire crag!!! The bolts on Gimmer surely can't create more problems than they could save?

Times will change, as will values and eventually someone will bother to do it. Simply a matter of time.

In reply to Pete E:


And there will still be someone to take them out. Probably a matter of very little time.

In reply to gavin g:

Have I missed something? Do you have a disability which prevents you from walking down what is a simple descent if taken with a little care?

In reply to Pete E:
O.K. You win.
I'll bolt Idwal next week and using the criteria of -
1.places used by beginers
2.potentialy difficult descents
I,ll also be doing
Milestone buttress ,Ogwen
The Grochan, Llanberis
Craig yr Ogof Cwm Silyn, Nantlle
Any more places in Snowdonia spring to mind?
There are loads in Cornwall and Pembroke and there must be plenty in The Lakes, Scotland, etc, but it'll take me a while to get round to them all.
pmc

In reply to Pete E: Argument 1. Save the flakes (avoid an even worse descent)
An interesting concept.

Argument 2. Beginners use the routes.
Surely someone with some experience is leading them?

Argument 3. Accident-avoiding bolts.
Only if you know how to use them. Can the beginners abseil? Surely a chain which they can handrail down the gully would be better? (In the style of other continental fixed equipment)

General climbing point:- Accepting that a beginner can climb up a route, what happens if the beginner needs to get off the route midway? Not knowing how to abseil safely seems a problem.

>Not as happy (but much happier - the witches, 'Macbeth' misquoted).
Should they really be there? They don't seem to have the skills and confidence necessary.

"The mountains will always be there, the trick is for you to be" (Whillans paraphrased)
Get the skills first, then get the experiences.

In reply to Pete E:

The decent is intimidating but not difficult unless iced when continuing into Cwm Cnefion is a better option. It is protectable. The abseil point would cause queues as it would encourage more people onto an already overcrowded crag and would overstate to the unfamilier the difficulty of the first moves (in-situ abseil equipment is not so uncommon in positions of really tricky downclimbing or where it would interfer with a classic eg the 'In Pin'). The rock directly below the abseil is loose and vegetated whereas the descent follows a diagonal line on better rock.

I'm no rabid traditionalist in this respect I'm arguing the particular case. As a for instance I think removing the marker poles on the Ben was a mistake.

In reply to all:

Good lord! are we still discussing this?

To all those who think it's a good idea.
Are you *really* sure you want to do this? With all the inherent precedents that would be set?

If so, you're probably better sticking to sport-climbing.

As has been pointed out, the move is easily protectable.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: id have to disagree with that one, it stops there being a bit of coloured tat lying about and stops erosion of people walking down.
Also saw some one on gimmer who had a nice rant about the chain and decided he wouldnt use it, instead placing a few pieces of gear, one being a cam under a very small block, he nearly killed himself. He was an old guy, and moments before had been bollocking me for soloing arent the old attitudes great

In reply to Paul B:

Well I've abbed off the chain at the top of Requiem and used the wire thread on the Inn Pinn. But I can see much stronger arguments for those (as lesser evils) than I can for this suggestion.

In reply to Paul B:

Why on earth would anyone need to leave tat or gear at the top of the Idwal descent route? As has been said many times above, if you *must* protect the descent, it's easy to set up a rope around the massive spike, with little chance of it sticking.

In reply to Li'l Zé & Rob Naylor:

Would you like cushions for your heads whilst you continue to beat them against the wall?

In reply to Craig_M:

It's like squeezing a spot. You know you shouldn't, but.....

In reply to Craig_M:

Dear Craig

It has been a while since I was down on the Idwal slabs, so has the slabs been tilted a bit steeper lately?

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Not that I'm aware of. However, it seems that the descent path has either turned into an E5, or there are a number of people lacking the competence to put one foot in front of the other. You decide.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

No, but there seems to be a growing level of visual impairment in the population that prevents those people who are a little intimidated by the glassy descent route from seeing large spikes that they could take a rope around. How they propose to be able to see a tiny little chain is therefore beyond me!

In reply to Craig_M:
it seems that the descent path has either turned into an E5, or there are a number of people lacking the competence to put one foot in front of the other. You decide.

Dear Craig

You got me stumpted, the way grade creep nowadays or incompetence. You are wrong, it is not or it is and.

Norrie

In reply to Craig_M:

That’s the second time you’ve referred to disability, do you have a thing about it or are you just very tedious?

As previously mentioned on here, I had no problem descending it, and am unlikely to ever go there again so I’m not really worried about it for my own personal benefit.

I think bolted ab-points in general are the way forwards in order to make things quicker and more convenient.

In reply to gavin g:

Ok, once more, very slowly, for the hard-of-thinking. If you want convenience, go to a single pitch crag, or a sport crag, NOT a mountain crag. Can you really not see the difference?
Actually, I don't know why I asked you that, it's quite obvious that it's beyond you.

In reply to gavin g: but then if your bolting decent routes, why not ascent routes?

Its a mountain crag, the top is half way.

I really dont see the point in this, OK points on the cuillin need abseil points, and a good chain saves all the unsightly tat, but tat isnt needed at idwal, either loop it around the spike or down climb.

Why anything else, I think the problem with the descent is why idwal is such a good learners crag as I said earlier. Give novices some credit, it isnt brain surgery to down climb a mod, which is at most what that down climb is.

In reply to Craig_M:
If you want convenience, go to a single pitch crag, or a sport crag, NOT a mountain crag.

Dear Craig

The next thing gavin will want is a public convenience at the top of the slab.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Well apparently it's all about convenience, so why not just have the track up to the crag improved so that he can drive up there and the lake filled in and tarmaced over so that there's somewhere to park too.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

That might be a better idea than you think - after all one never knows when one might need a wee.

In reply to Craig_M: I really dont understand this, its a mountain crag for bumbly Vdiff climbers like me, its not about convenience, people dont go there to do as many routes as possible, its hardly taxing climbing is it, its just about relaxing enjoying the view, and enjoying nature,

The next step must be via ferrata along tower ridge and the cuillin?

In reply to gavin g:

how will creating a new bottleneck at the ab station achieve either of these ends?

and since there are more accidents abseiling than in any other aspect of rock climbing, your proposals would probably result in an increase in casualty figures.

In reply to PKL: Very interesting thread this one,but not just about safety, personally I find the decent pretty easy without the need for a rope, however hundreds of feet walkig down the side of the slabs are leaving a larger and larger rutted path, maybe people don't see this as envoironmental damage! I am totally against bolting, however I have to agree that carefully and discreetly placed abseil points could reduce environmental damage, but their position would need careful consideration

In reply to Anonymous:

I think there *are* places in the UK where bolted/ chained abseil points could reduce environmental damage, I'm not a fanatic about that.

But...I don't think this is one of them. The rock spikes are so easy to use that if you're going to ab or lower off, there's no point in doing it from a chain.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

poor troll eh? 0/10. looks like 120 responses to me.

In reply to steveP:

Yep. I don't think it was a troll in the end. Even if it was, it got an interesting discussion going.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

A fair and balanced point. I take my hat off to you sir, as you have taken your Enid Blyton blinkers off

In reply to Norrie Muir:


Dear Norrie,

If you're up for a bit of cottaging, just let me know.

Gavin

In reply to Craig_M:


I prefer multi-pitch trad climbing. The descents are mundane, I prefer being able to ab-off.

Do you want me to draw you a picture?

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

becuase i prefer the challenge of leading them "traditionaly"

But if you want to bolt them, I won't complain, as it opens up the sport to more people

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


Only becuase people ab off dodgy gear/blocks/spikes.

In reply to gavin g: but why not get off them using trad means to, If you walk up a mountain a helicopter doesnt lift you off and take you home does it? half way!

Hello all. I would just like to tell you about the latest phpbb board around its called affinity5. Talk about whatever you want any subject any topic, make sure you can have your say first! Go ahead I am inviting you to come join me, just go to http://www.affinity5.com/forum/

In reply to gavin g:

Muppet!

In reply to PKL:
I think a proper chain abseil point would be a good idea, Idwal has a lot of easy routes on it and is a great place for beginners to learn multipitching, except that the decent is harder than some of the climbs up! For those that say an ab point would be an eyesore and reduces the challenge, how about the great big arrows scratched in the rock? Surely by using guidebooks we are also making easy for ourselves? Surely if we are protecting ourselves with ropes on the way up we can use them on the way down?
Anyway you wouldn't be able to see the ab point unless you were stood right next to it and that gully is hardly a tourist attraction now is it? It's already polished to buggery and stand out like a sore thumb, there are also loads of crags in wales eg Tremadog, with pegs sticking out all over the place, it would be interesting to see the reaction if they were removed cos they're unnatural and take away the challenge.
For the environmentalists, has anyone climbed at sheperds crag? loads of trees have been wrecked by people abseiling off them and pulling ropes through, so sometimes bolts can reduce impact (i am not suggesting bolting sheperds as there is an easy decent path anyway, just an example). As for the guy who bitched about freeze-thaw weathering, i am a geologist, and the rock at idwal is not susceptible to that kind of damage, especially not if the right piece is selected.
I think an ab point would save a lot of time on the descent and solves the problems of beginners (which there are a lot of)getting cragfast on the way down, and the impacts would be minimal.

In reply to beermonkey: but since there is a perfectly good spike to ab off why is a chain needed? if people do want to ab they can use that

In reply to gwilym:
My posting was more of a general argument for ab points on awkward descents, yes there is the spike at idwal, but an abseil point would make things quicker, safer, reduces wear on ropes and dercreases the chance of them getting stuck.

In reply to beermonkey:

You do not need to run the rope round the flake: use a short sling (with krab) on the flake; abseil down; then send a "ripple" up the rope to flick the sling off. No extra wear and tear on your rope, no need for any bolts, perhaps some need for thought

Bob

In reply to beermonkey: but dont you think the SLIGHTLY awkward decent is good for beginners, OK i have always roped up on it but it is nothing exceptional, Im amazed if people can climb 450ft Vdiff then they cant climb a 30ft mod/easy climb down which lets face it is all it is. You dont have to abseil, it can be down climbed easy enough, thats the choice of the party, but why bolt?

In reply to Iain Ridgway: Hear-hear!! Only climbed at Idwal twice, but here's my tupence worth... Beginners need to get an wholistic education. The alternative is Idwal becoming a glorified gym (I'm probably rehashing things that have already been said.)

Also, bolts at Idwal would be a thin-end of the wedge - what would be the next accessible crag with an awkward descent?

That is not to say that I would oppose some method of preventing damage to trees where they are used for abseils (see other threads on releasable abseil for DIY solutions.

In reply to vince mcnally:


Gimp

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

No, but mountaineering isn’t cragging.

If descents are so good, why doesn’t someone publish a guidebook with the top 100 descents in Britain, and give them a star rating etc?

In reply to gavin g:

Either you're pig ignorant or having a good laugh at how easy it is to wind people up. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt

In reply to gavin g: they do, look at any scrambling guide, and it says which ones are suitable for descents.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

So do a lot of climbing guidebooks. Clwyd rock suggests a HVS as a descent route on one of the crags!

In reply to PKL:
I don't know what anyone would say (but I can guess)........................

However, I'd remove them if anyone placed them - that's a promise, but I think I'd be beaten to it somehow(?).

There are many issues with the descent from the slabs but if there is a skill deficit in the climber that requires the placing of fixed gear then it's a poor day. You can descent from the top of faith (west finish area), from over the top of the continuation walls etc by heading towards the kitchen etc as well as the 'normal' way.

Less of this 'nanny state' stuff, mountaineering is about taking risk and managing it....

In reply to PKL: Why not have a bolted ab point, the you've got the option of how you want to descent.

I wouldn't object to a bolted ab point, however, I wouldn't use it as the slabs are polished enough already

In reply to beermonkey:I am all for any aid to getting down safely at the end of a good climb no matter where it is.The point mentioned near top of idwal slabs gets regular call outs for mountain rescue. Surely would be a idea. After all you don`t have to use it if you don`t want to.

In reply to Anonymous:

That is SUCH a poor argument - you have still altered the situation, removing the commitment/risk/part of the essence. Why not just bolt Knocking on Heaven's Door?? Those who want to risk their lives can still just ignore them?

WRT another comment - Idwal isn't cragging - it is cragging in a mountaineering setting. The descent is part of the experience.

Or were you just trolling? (Hence being Anon - please have the courage of your convictions to use a name.)

In reply to gary:

*Does* the Idwal Slabs descent get many call-outs, though?

Of the 21 callouts so far in 2004, 19 were callouts to walkers, 1 to a scrambler and 1 to a climber, on Tryfan. No callouts to climbers injured or stuck on the descent route itself.

In 2003, of 68 callouts, 7 were to climbers, mostly on Tryfan again. Two callouts were to Idwal: 1 to a team benighted on their first multipitch climb and one to a team that couldn't actually *find* the descent route. No callouts to climbers injured or stuck on the descent route itself.


In 2002, of 24 callouts, 7 were to climbers, yet again mostly on tryfan. Again 2 were to Idwal: 1 to a leader fall on route, the other to a team reported as overdue . It turned out that this team were overdue because they'd stopped to help another team get down the descent route safely.

So, of 15 callouts to climbers in the last 3 years, only 4 involved Idwal at all. Only 1 could properly be said to involve the quality of the descent route, and that didn't involve injury, just a party being overdue.

So where's the regular and frequent callouts to climbers injured on the Idwal descent? The team stats just don't show them! It looks to me as if you're all hawking around a solution in search of a problem!

And yet *again*...if you want to protect the descent, take a frigging rope around the spike...where is the need for the ab chain?

In reply to Rob Naylor:

Just to follow up...I've been back to 1996 in the MTR records this morning, and the *only* instance I could find of a callout to someone injured on the descent of Idwal Slabs was in October 2001.

There seems to be a stunning number of benightments on the slabs themselves, though...one team for 2 nights! Maybe a floodlit staircase with handrail down the centre of the slabs would reduce these events, which are running at an unacceptable level!

In reply to Rob Naylor:

Ok, I'm intrigued now. How the hell does someone manage to get stuck on Idwal Slabs for 2 nights? or did they get down after the first one, then go back for another go?

In reply to Craig_M:

Dunno. 9th October, 2000. It just says "Cragfast, 2 nights!" with an exclamation mark.

http://www.ogwen-rescue.org.uk/incidents/2000.php

In reply to Craig_M:

<pisstake>Having looked at the stats, the only sensible thing then is to take a bulldozer to Tryfan, and then to put a shiny metal bolt to mark where it stood... </pisstake>

Two nights though!

In reply to Rob Naylor:

Anyone benighted on the Idwal slabs is almost certainly not competent enough to abseil back down.

In reply to GrahamD:

Indeed. In fact one rather wonders how they managed to put one foot in front of another for long enough to get up there.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

It's the bald statement " cragfast for 2 nights!" that gets me.

I mean, how? Why? Where? The OVMRO are complete *bastards* for just leaving it at that. I want the *details*!!!

In reply to GrahamD:

Hence my suggesteion for a floodlit staircase with handrail down the middle of the slabs. I mean, why should people be prevented from climbing on them just because they're incompetent to get down? It'd be so convenient, too, for those people who just want to use the place as an outdoor gym and maximise their route-count.

After all, the rest of us wouldn't *have* to use it!

In reply to Rob Naylor:

There's also the issue of wheelchair access. I think we should be thinking seriously about this.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Why don't we get one of those bright orange, inflatable slides they use to get people out of airplanes? It could become a tourist attraction, and would turn a neglected crag into a major toruist centre, which is just what Idwal needs.

Erm, I've got that wrong, haven't I?

In reply to psdatwork:

Now THAT I could go for. You'd need one about - ooh, five hundred feet along, maybe? Be quite a ride.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

I'm trying to think how the geography works out, but I reckon that if you had a well lubricated boy scout, you could probably skim him across Llyn Idwal.




Which sounds incredibly rude, now I think about it.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:


I reckon you could get a hell of a speed up down the slab in a wheelchair......

In reply to Craig_M:

I'm still waiting for high diving to be introduced to the paralympics...

What about getting hold of one of those over-sized, inflatable hamster balls for the descent?

In reply to psdatwork:

Actually just carrying up a dozen medicine balls and launching them down the slab on to other parties would be quite fun. There must be an arcade game in there somewhere.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

You would need to get a chair lift installed to get them up there, of course. And maybe some sort of mechanism for standing people up again at the bottom ?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Only if you've climbed up in a gorilla suit, and left a few giant hammers for them as they go...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

After contacting sunrise medical to see if they can supply 5.10 rubber tyres and high capacity batteries for an electric wheelchair it is a no goer. They think it may be too hard to make tyres that will last long enough, after all they will be beginners at climbing so will have scrabbling tyres. Also, there is no belay position on the wheelchair and they think it would not be cost effective. Perhaps they need to contact the Calvert Trust to see how they get wheelchairs abseiling

Should the Ordinary route be converted to a VF, then they would have to walk to the top of the mountain following the red and white stripes, sorry, green and white as it is in Wales. Can't have them thinking they are on the Etive VF now can we?

In reply to sutty:

That's just the type of comment I'd expect from someone who knows nothing about disabilities...poking ironic fun at people in wheelchairs. They have rights too, you know!

If you knew people who had to live their lives in a wheelchair, you wouldn't be so quick to make fun of them.

Shame on you!

In reply to Rob Naylor:

I'd second that, what are you saying Sutty!! Every one know 5:10 is rubbish for wheelchair climbers anyway.

Noticable how quiet things have gone now you faced them with facts.

Incidently, if you get stuck in queues its really easy to get benighted on Idwal, The Milestone and Tryffan. Looking after beginners who got into trouble when you all forgot your torches on Idwal could even happen to a certain member of a certain Lakeland rescue team who might then have had to leave a rope stuck behind the abseil block. Being cragfast overnight would be more incompetant, two nights must involve something much more interesting.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

Ironic, I will have you know the chair is finest alloys. Well the finest the NHS supply.

In reply to PKL:
Most parties will be happy enough downclimbing with out a rope. Those slightly more nervous can downclimb with a belay at the top and bottom, placing runners, or simply looping the rope over the many little rock spikes. Those even more nervous could invest a whopping £1 to purhase a bit of cord to leave as tat to abseil off, using the previously mentioned gigantic spike. There is absolutely no need to place bolts here.