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Why does this well known mountaineering establisment,take it's well heeled clients en-masse,up the most popular routes in north Wales and monopolise the routes all day ?
I was up in the Moelwyns yesterday and what a perfect day it was.The moment we saw a couple of PyB minibuses in the car park we thought 'Ay Up'...That's Clogwyn y Oen taken up then !
Sure enough,CyO had become Buckinghamshire on high as plummy voiced Jeremys and Tristrams shouted 'Taking in'..'That's me' Climb when you're ready'.
I know you can always find an empty crag somewhere but as I was with someone who had just recovered from a serious Op and who hadn't climbed for two years,and who just wanted an easy day out in the Moelwyns.Then,you have to say, I just wish that the PyB crowd would occasionally show a bit more imagination and take their 'super' clients to other crags.
Reminds me of the time I was at Trem and PyB took over an entire popular section of crag and spent all day taking clients up....and down ! the popular classics.
National mountaineering centre my arse !
In reply to Jonno:
Agree with any call for more intelligent group usage. There's a lot of places in Wales (and indeed almost everywhere) that could do with more traffic, and leave the more established crags alone.
Agree with any call for more intelligent group usage. There's a lot of places in Wales (and indeed almost everywhere) that could do with more traffic, and leave the more established crags alone.
In reply to Jonno:
Sure enough,CyO had become Buckinghamshire on high as plummy voiced Jeremys and Tristrams shouted 'Taking in'..'That's me' Climb when you're ready'.
And why is that so worse than it becoming Manchester or East End on high as mancunian/cockney voiced kevins and trevors shout 'Taking in'...'That's me'...'Climb when you're ready'??????
Sure enough,CyO had become Buckinghamshire on high as plummy voiced Jeremys and Tristrams shouted 'Taking in'..'That's me' Climb when you're ready'.
And why is that so worse than it becoming Manchester or East End on high as mancunian/cockney voiced kevins and trevors shout 'Taking in'...'That's me'...'Climb when you're ready'??????
In reply to Jonno: Have you considered contacting them and voicing your opinions, rather than just coming on here and slagging them off?
In reply to Jonno:
I can see your point, to a point.
1) The Brenin are hardly the earliest of starters are they? Come on, I bet they don't get there until 10-00am by which time you'd have done two routes!
2) They all go home at 4-15pm to get back for tea and cakes at 5-00pm (absolute truth-a Brenin ritual!)
3) They are very aware of one bus going to one crag. I do know that they try hard to spread themselves around areas rather than all going to one crag en-mass.
4) They do use less frequented crags as well as popular ones (Careg y Foel Gron and Crinkle crags for example?)
One thing has struck me though, there's loads of folk climbing in N.Wales at the W/E period. I've been climbing there for 25yrs (phew, need a rest now) and the participation rate seems to have rocketed in the past 5-10 years (Cheap travel and fast cars?)
Phill
I can see your point, to a point.
1) The Brenin are hardly the earliest of starters are they? Come on, I bet they don't get there until 10-00am by which time you'd have done two routes!
2) They all go home at 4-15pm to get back for tea and cakes at 5-00pm (absolute truth-a Brenin ritual!)
3) They are very aware of one bus going to one crag. I do know that they try hard to spread themselves around areas rather than all going to one crag en-mass.
4) They do use less frequented crags as well as popular ones (Careg y Foel Gron and Crinkle crags for example?)
One thing has struck me though, there's loads of folk climbing in N.Wales at the W/E period. I've been climbing there for 25yrs (phew, need a rest now) and the participation rate seems to have rocketed in the past 5-10 years (Cheap travel and fast cars?)
Phill
In reply to WhiteKnight:
10.00am that early, they have trouble getting to Tremadog by then!
> (In reply to Jonno)
> I can see your point, to a point.
> 1) The Brenin are hardly the earliest of starters are they? Come on, I bet they don't get there until 10-00am by which time you'd have done two routes!
> I can see your point, to a point.
> 1) The Brenin are hardly the earliest of starters are they? Come on, I bet they don't get there until 10-00am by which time you'd have done two routes!
10.00am that early, they have trouble getting to Tremadog by then!
In reply to Jonno:
What a completely pathetic, misguided and bizzarely quazi-elitist post.
Your valid point about routes being monopolised by outdoor centres is completely overwhelmed by your ridiculous prejudice against people just because they talk differently to you and you see them as being somehow unfairly priviledged.
Has it occurred to you that they have every right to enjoy the mountains as you do?
This is one of the saddest posts I've ever read.
What a completely pathetic, misguided and bizzarely quazi-elitist post.
Your valid point about routes being monopolised by outdoor centres is completely overwhelmed by your ridiculous prejudice against people just because they talk differently to you and you see them as being somehow unfairly priviledged.
Has it occurred to you that they have every right to enjoy the mountains as you do?
This is one of the saddest posts I've ever read.
In reply to WhiteKnight:
One bus going to one crag, oh that it was so.
I don't get out much in Wales or Scotland but the last three times they have had at least two buses in the car park, in Glencoe they had three last picnic.
April last year they nearly monopolised that small crag at the Cromlech bridge, left ropes down routes while having their lunch.
Why do they not remove them to let others climb, are their instructors so incompetent it takes them more than five minutes to replace one they used earlier.
I have come to the conclusion that it is just arrogance of the instructors, they are working for THE NATIONAL CENTRE so can do no wrong. Well I told them they were doing wrong, and they just ignored me.
Perhaps there will someday be a showdown when another instructor wishes to use a route they have roped and left for later, I damn well hope so.
One bus going to one crag, oh that it was so.
I don't get out much in Wales or Scotland but the last three times they have had at least two buses in the car park, in Glencoe they had three last picnic.
April last year they nearly monopolised that small crag at the Cromlech bridge, left ropes down routes while having their lunch.
Why do they not remove them to let others climb, are their instructors so incompetent it takes them more than five minutes to replace one they used earlier.
I have come to the conclusion that it is just arrogance of the instructors, they are working for THE NATIONAL CENTRE so can do no wrong. Well I told them they were doing wrong, and they just ignored me.
Perhaps there will someday be a showdown when another instructor wishes to use a route they have roped and left for later, I damn well hope so.
> I don't get out much in Wales or Scotland but the last three times they have had at least two buses in the car park, in Glencoe they had three last picnic.
My heart bleeds for you. Just think, three buses in tiny little Glen Coe. What were they thinking?
In reply to Tom Chamberlain:
They were thinking of hogging 90% of the easy routes on Bidein to the detriment of other players. That is what was said later.
They were thinking of hogging 90% of the easy routes on Bidein to the detriment of other players. That is what was said later.
In reply to sutty:
Bloody hell, how can you get wound up about the Cromlech Slabs?????? Hardly a major resource me thinks (but it's close to the road - hence it's new poularity???)
BTW did you notice any other rock in the Llanberis pass perhaps? Maybe you could have climbed some of that instead? Would you think the same if the crag was occupied with individuals? (eg a peak district crag on a sunday).
Calling the Brenin staff incompetent doesn't really wash, does it?
The Brenin have taken more than reasonable steps to reduce their impact on the environment and other users, look at the staff meeting minutes perhaps?
Overall this thread seems to stem from one persons desire to do a route that someone else is doing before them. Over the past 6 weekends I've been teaching climbing in Snowdonia and have NEVER been in a situation where I couldn't get on the routes I wanted to use, maybe though I had some good local knowledge, was prepared to walk, and got up early.
Phill
Bloody hell, how can you get wound up about the Cromlech Slabs?????? Hardly a major resource me thinks (but it's close to the road - hence it's new poularity???)
BTW did you notice any other rock in the Llanberis pass perhaps? Maybe you could have climbed some of that instead? Would you think the same if the crag was occupied with individuals? (eg a peak district crag on a sunday).
Calling the Brenin staff incompetent doesn't really wash, does it?
The Brenin have taken more than reasonable steps to reduce their impact on the environment and other users, look at the staff meeting minutes perhaps?
Overall this thread seems to stem from one persons desire to do a route that someone else is doing before them. Over the past 6 weekends I've been teaching climbing in Snowdonia and have NEVER been in a situation where I couldn't get on the routes I wanted to use, maybe though I had some good local knowledge, was prepared to walk, and got up early.
Phill
In reply to Jonno:
Dear Jonno
What else do you expect, the instructors/guides doing something adventurous?
Norrie
Dear Jonno
What else do you expect, the instructors/guides doing something adventurous?
Norrie
In reply to WhiteKnight:
That particular day we had several beginners and first timers on outside rock so wanted something to get them into gently. It was not the fact they were there, it was their leaving ropes down two routes while dining and not removing them so others could climb.
One girl was a bit freaked out doing her first lead and worried they might abb down on her head. Unlikely I should hope but still?
We coped, no thanks to the instructors who were in fact arrogant when spoken to.
I do happen to have a passing aquaintance with the pass, having climbed on most of the crags there apart from the modern ones. However, I and one other person am not fit enough to walk to the good higher ones ATM due to wonky knees and ankles. Otherwise we may have gone to do Parsons Nose in peace.
That particular day we had several beginners and first timers on outside rock so wanted something to get them into gently. It was not the fact they were there, it was their leaving ropes down two routes while dining and not removing them so others could climb.
One girl was a bit freaked out doing her first lead and worried they might abb down on her head. Unlikely I should hope but still?
We coped, no thanks to the instructors who were in fact arrogant when spoken to.
I do happen to have a passing aquaintance with the pass, having climbed on most of the crags there apart from the modern ones. However, I and one other person am not fit enough to walk to the good higher ones ATM due to wonky knees and ankles. Otherwise we may have gone to do Parsons Nose in peace.
In reply to Jonno:
Can't resist this. A few (quite a few...) years back, a mate travelled down from the Lakes for his then big ambition - to lead Left Wall on the Cromlech. We arrived below the central walls to find a PyB group on an aid-climbing course at various stages of nutting their way up Left Wall, the Corner and Cemetery Gates. Slings, etriers, haul ropes the lot! I thought it was pretty funny, but my mate was furious. We got on the route after an hour or so. No harm done. But he wrote to the then director of PyB and I believe there were policy changes about hogging crags/routes after that.
But generally, aren't they as entitled as anyone else to climb the routes?
Can't resist this. A few (quite a few...) years back, a mate travelled down from the Lakes for his then big ambition - to lead Left Wall on the Cromlech. We arrived below the central walls to find a PyB group on an aid-climbing course at various stages of nutting their way up Left Wall, the Corner and Cemetery Gates. Slings, etriers, haul ropes the lot! I thought it was pretty funny, but my mate was furious. We got on the route after an hour or so. No harm done. But he wrote to the then director of PyB and I believe there were policy changes about hogging crags/routes after that.
But generally, aren't they as entitled as anyone else to climb the routes?
Two points...
firstly I usually make a point of frequenting less popular crags but as I stated,I was with someone who is hobbling back to fitness after a serious op and who hasn't climbed for two years.
Clogwyn y Oen was their choice for an easy multi pitch day out.More's the pity that PyB seem to have decided that CyO is their own private fiefdom !
Secondly,yes inverted snobbery indeed.Given the prices that PyB charge then you are not likely to hear the accents of the housing estates.
It's only the 'dinkies' and 'yuppies' who can afford to get their adventure fix at PyB's costly rates.
I bet the average PyB client reads 'Trail' as well !
In reply to Jonno:
As you say, it is the way they think they have a right to hog crags, imagine another centre doing that and stopping PYB get ropes up and all hell would be let loose. As I said earlier, three meetings in two years and every one negative.
Looks bad PR to me.
As you say, it is the way they think they have a right to hog crags, imagine another centre doing that and stopping PYB get ropes up and all hell would be let loose. As I said earlier, three meetings in two years and every one negative.
Looks bad PR to me.
In reply to Jonno:
Off the top of my head....
MIA training course - 9 Days at a 1-2 to 1-4 ratio for £650-00. Hardly the preserve of the wealthy or elite is it??? The Brenin courses are good value for money, and there not so expensive that they are only open to the elite etc
Mind your hobble doesn't displace the chip on your shoulder?
Phill
PS - Trail - top publication, just got a subscription (no it's true I really have!)
Off the top of my head....
MIA training course - 9 Days at a 1-2 to 1-4 ratio for £650-00. Hardly the preserve of the wealthy or elite is it??? The Brenin courses are good value for money, and there not so expensive that they are only open to the elite etc
Mind your hobble doesn't displace the chip on your shoulder?
Phill
PS - Trail - top publication, just got a subscription (no it's true I really have!)
In reply to WhiteKnight:
individuals? (eg a peak district crag on a sunday).
Dear WhiteKnight
I do have limited experience of PYB, as I stay in Scotland, but I have run into them. One experience was when we were doing Green Gully on Ben Nevis, we overtook 2 PYB instructors. I watched the leader coming up to the belay, and was in difficulty, I suggested bridging would be easier. Then the next problem was setting up the belay, 8 ice screws, no nuts or pegs.
They were pleasant people and thanked us for our help.
Norrie
individuals? (eg a peak district crag on a sunday).
> Calling the Brenin staff incompetent doesn't really wash, does it?
Dear WhiteKnight
I do have limited experience of PYB, as I stay in Scotland, but I have run into them. One experience was when we were doing Green Gully on Ben Nevis, we overtook 2 PYB instructors. I watched the leader coming up to the belay, and was in difficulty, I suggested bridging would be easier. Then the next problem was setting up the belay, 8 ice screws, no nuts or pegs.
They were pleasant people and thanked us for our help.
Norrie
Surely this calls for a bit of planning... someone infiltrate the centre, and find out where they're planning to go each day. Phone a bunch of friends who arrive before them, and occupy the crag. Repeat.
In reply to Norrie Muir:
One swallow doesn't make a summer though (depending on who swallows?????)
Phill
One swallow doesn't make a summer though (depending on who swallows?????)
Phill
In reply to WhiteKnight:
Dear WhiteKnight
You are right, it is a shame they take people out in the winter as swallows are summer birds - the blind leading the blind.
Norrie
> One swallow doesn't make a summer though
Dear WhiteKnight
You are right, it is a shame they take people out in the winter as swallows are summer birds - the blind leading the blind.
Norrie
In reply to Jonno:
well im not either of those, and i live on a housing estate.
i sound common as muck but i happen to think that the course they run are pretty good value for money actually.
both my partner and i are going on a lead climbing course later in the year to gain some experience and after looking around for guides etc we felt for what we got and ease of arranging pyb was the best.
well im not either of those, and i live on a housing estate.
i sound common as muck but i happen to think that the course they run are pretty good value for money actually.
both my partner and i are going on a lead climbing course later in the year to gain some experience and after looking around for guides etc we felt for what we got and ease of arranging pyb was the best.
In reply to Norrie Muir:
>.
Dear Norrie
Reminds of the famous Mo Anthoine statement when he was dying with a brain tumour.When asked the prognosis he said...
'Well the best outcome is that I'll recover...of course I may not recover and die.The very worst outcome is that I'll degenerate into an unthinking cabbage and have to get a job as a PyB instructor' !
Bit un PC perhaps Mo but funny and true nevertheless !
>.
>
> You are right, it is a shame they take people out in the winter as swallows are summer birds - the blind leading the blind.
>
> Norrie
> You are right, it is a shame they take people out in the winter as swallows are summer birds - the blind leading the blind.
>
> Norrie
Dear Norrie
Reminds of the famous Mo Anthoine statement when he was dying with a brain tumour.When asked the prognosis he said...
'Well the best outcome is that I'll recover...of course I may not recover and die.The very worst outcome is that I'll degenerate into an unthinking cabbage and have to get a job as a PyB instructor' !
Bit un PC perhaps Mo but funny and true nevertheless !
In reply to sutty:
Well, I'm sure they have their reasons for sticking to the lower level crags, just as you do ('Wonky knees'). And as for instructors who were 'arrogant when spoken to', well if you spoke to me in the tone of your first posting I'd have been downright offensive. I think your comment smacks of 'pots' and 'kettles'.
And to those who are knocking the competence of the instructors, well I think you need to go and do some homework and find out just how competent some (most, in fact) of the instructors at the Brenin are. Take a look at the news article on UKC dated Jun 15th. Twid and Stuart both instructors at PyB, along with Tim Neill, Louise Thomas blah blah. Wake up and smell the coffee.
PYB offer very good courses which are, on the whole, good value for money (IMHO). I'd argue that they're well within the budget of at least the majority of climbers, given enough willpower.
Well, I'm sure they have their reasons for sticking to the lower level crags, just as you do ('Wonky knees'). And as for instructors who were 'arrogant when spoken to', well if you spoke to me in the tone of your first posting I'd have been downright offensive. I think your comment smacks of 'pots' and 'kettles'.
And to those who are knocking the competence of the instructors, well I think you need to go and do some homework and find out just how competent some (most, in fact) of the instructors at the Brenin are. Take a look at the news article on UKC dated Jun 15th. Twid and Stuart both instructors at PyB, along with Tim Neill, Louise Thomas blah blah. Wake up and smell the coffee.
PYB offer very good courses which are, on the whole, good value for money (IMHO). I'd argue that they're well within the budget of at least the majority of climbers, given enough willpower.
In reply to WhiteKnight:
Six hundred and fifty pounds ! That's sounds a lot to me.I'll teach PyB clients to climb for a couple of cases of Strongbow and some Ogdens ready rubbed old shag.
Say no more.
> (In reply to Jonno)
> Off the top of my head....
>
> MIA training course - 9 Days at a 1-2 to 1-4 ratio for £650-00. Hardly the preserve of the wealthy or elite is it>
> Off the top of my head....
>
> MIA training course - 9 Days at a 1-2 to 1-4 ratio for £650-00. Hardly the preserve of the wealthy or elite is it>
Six hundred and fifty pounds ! That's sounds a lot to me.I'll teach PyB clients to climb for a couple of cases of Strongbow and some Ogdens ready rubbed old shag.
> Mind your hobble doesn't displace the chip on your shoulder?
I haven't got a hobble.I walk tall and look the world right in the eye.It's what my mother told me,when I was about Knee high.
> PS - Trail - top publication, just got a subscription (no it's true I really have!)
Say no more.
In reply to sutty:
Crikey ! ANd how many cars were there belonging to those attending 'the picnic'? Personally I'd rather be faced with a bus load of Brenin students & instructors than the same number of arrogant idiots on a RT picnic.
> I don't get out much in Wales or Scotland but the last three times they have had at least two buses in the car park, in Glencoe they had three last picnic.
Crikey ! ANd how many cars were there belonging to those attending 'the picnic'? Personally I'd rather be faced with a bus load of Brenin students & instructors than the same number of arrogant idiots on a RT picnic.
In reply to Graham B:
Personally I'd rather be faced with a bus load of Brenin students & instructors than the same number of arrogant idiots on a RT picnic.
Dear Graham
Personally it would be a close call, well neither to be honest.
Norrie
Personally I'd rather be faced with a bus load of Brenin students & instructors than the same number of arrogant idiots on a RT picnic.
Dear Graham
Personally it would be a close call, well neither to be honest.
Norrie
In reply to Graham B:
Open your eyes Graham, it was BECAUSE they were arrogant I posted as I did. I felt vey strongly about it then and still do. And when has being a high grade climber stopped them being pricks, I know quite a few who I would not like to share a tent with but are very competent on rock, less so on Alpine stuff.
As far as competence goes, they showed bad practice as written in the BMC guidelines by hogging routes when not climbing. We did a route, second and in one case third person went up then moved on to let others on.
Glencoe, 8 people I think on Dorsal Arete in three parties and another four on another route elsewhwere on the mountain.
Open your eyes Graham, it was BECAUSE they were arrogant I posted as I did. I felt vey strongly about it then and still do. And when has being a high grade climber stopped them being pricks, I know quite a few who I would not like to share a tent with but are very competent on rock, less so on Alpine stuff.
As far as competence goes, they showed bad practice as written in the BMC guidelines by hogging routes when not climbing. We did a route, second and in one case third person went up then moved on to let others on.
Glencoe, 8 people I think on Dorsal Arete in three parties and another four on another route elsewhwere on the mountain.
In reply to Jonno:
About £72 a day that has to pay for the instructors (do you get more £72 a day) the food, accomodiation, transport etc.
> (In reply to WhiteKnight)
> [...]
>
> Six hundred and fifty pounds !
> [...]
>
> Six hundred and fifty pounds !
About £72 a day that has to pay for the instructors (do you get more £72 a day) the food, accomodiation, transport etc.
In reply to Jonno:
Presumably you are referring to the annual £500k subsidy we all pay PyB in our tax?
>
> It's only the 'dinkies' and 'yuppies' who can afford to get their adventure fix at PyB's costly rates.
>
>
Presumably you are referring to the annual £500k subsidy we all pay PyB in our tax?
In reply to Graham B:
I support your comments about PyB.
i live not 5 minutes from the llanberis pass and regularly climb in the area.
i regularly see and encounter PyB staff with their groups, perhaps more so than a lot of other people and i have NEVER had a problem.
Those who slag off organisations that introduce and coach others in our sport need to be a little more tolerant. None of us have a monopoly on climbing and just because an organisation happens to climb at a polpular venue doesn't make them thoughtless or ignorant. They are meeting their clients needs just as you are trying to meet yours.
Maybe those who would prefer a bit of solitude or peace, especially if they are trying to reintroduce friends back into climbing in a sensitive manner should apply a bit more thought and choose a venue that matches their sentiments and not blame others for their bad choice. i hardly think a trip to CyO quite fits the bill if you are looking for peace and quiet !
> (In reply to sutty)
> Well, I'm sure they have their reasons for sticking to the lower level crags, just as you do
> Well, I'm sure they have their reasons for sticking to the lower level crags, just as you do
I support your comments about PyB.
i live not 5 minutes from the llanberis pass and regularly climb in the area.
i regularly see and encounter PyB staff with their groups, perhaps more so than a lot of other people and i have NEVER had a problem.
Those who slag off organisations that introduce and coach others in our sport need to be a little more tolerant. None of us have a monopoly on climbing and just because an organisation happens to climb at a polpular venue doesn't make them thoughtless or ignorant. They are meeting their clients needs just as you are trying to meet yours.
Maybe those who would prefer a bit of solitude or peace, especially if they are trying to reintroduce friends back into climbing in a sensitive manner should apply a bit more thought and choose a venue that matches their sentiments and not blame others for their bad choice. i hardly think a trip to CyO quite fits the bill if you are looking for peace and quiet !
In reply to WhiteKnight:
Value for money? Only because they are massively subsidies by the tax payer. In a open market I might add.
> (In reply to Jonno)
> Off the top of my head....
>
> MIA training course - 9 Days at a 1-2 to 1-4 ratio for £650-00. Hardly the preserve of the wealthy or elite is it??? The Brenin courses are good value for money, and there not so expensive that they are only open to the elite etc
>
> Off the top of my head....
>
> MIA training course - 9 Days at a 1-2 to 1-4 ratio for £650-00. Hardly the preserve of the wealthy or elite is it??? The Brenin courses are good value for money, and there not so expensive that they are only open to the elite etc
>
Value for money? Only because they are massively subsidies by the tax payer. In a open market I might add.
In reply to Simon Wilson:
PyB have a pretty good monopoly though don't they? £500k makes my blood boil
> (In reply to Graham B)
>
> Those who slag off organisations that introduce and coach others in our sport need to be a little more tolerant. None of us have a monopoly on climbing
> Those who slag off organisations that introduce and coach others in our sport need to be a little more tolerant. None of us have a monopoly on climbing
PyB have a pretty good monopoly though don't they? £500k makes my blood boil
In reply to Anonymous:
Money isn't the issue here and i don't think this has any bearing on the original problem.
> (In reply to Simon Wilson)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
>
> PyB have a pretty good monopoly though don't they? £500k makes my blood boil
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
>
> PyB have a pretty good monopoly though don't they? £500k makes my blood boil
Money isn't the issue here and i don't think this has any bearing on the original problem.
In reply to Jonno:
Interesting post and I understand your frustration but, in general, I disagree. I know from personal experience that the instructors at PyB do make a determined effort to minimize crag impact. Perhaps they don't always succeed in this but generally have good intentions.
The post about PyB instructors not being up to climbing Green Gully in reasonable style is interesting. All the ones I've had any dealings with have all been scarily good and could have romped up that route with their eyes closed. There will always be exceptions of course but, in general, the standard of climbing among the instructors there is very high.
Sutty:
I completely agree with you about leaving ropes in place whilst eating lunch. Again, very surprising as I've not experienced such thoughtless or rude behaviour from PyB staff. I'm sure you'd get a reasonable response if you contacted the management about this example of poor ettiquet (sp?).
Cheers
Interesting post and I understand your frustration but, in general, I disagree. I know from personal experience that the instructors at PyB do make a determined effort to minimize crag impact. Perhaps they don't always succeed in this but generally have good intentions.
The post about PyB instructors not being up to climbing Green Gully in reasonable style is interesting. All the ones I've had any dealings with have all been scarily good and could have romped up that route with their eyes closed. There will always be exceptions of course but, in general, the standard of climbing among the instructors there is very high.
Sutty:
I completely agree with you about leaving ropes in place whilst eating lunch. Again, very surprising as I've not experienced such thoughtless or rude behaviour from PyB staff. I'm sure you'd get a reasonable response if you contacted the management about this example of poor ettiquet (sp?).
Cheers
In reply to Gman:
The message was passed on by a friend who calls there regularly. I hoped things would improve but if Jonno saw more than one bus at a venue it appears not.
The message was passed on by a friend who calls there regularly. I hoped things would improve but if Jonno saw more than one bus at a venue it appears not.
In reply to sutty:
Well, OK. If you spoke to them in a rational and calm manner and they were arrogant back, fair enough. But were they 'arrogant' becasue they didn't do as you requested ?
"Open my eyes" eh ? Exactly what I always do. In my experience of PyB staff I can honestly say I've never found them arrogant or pompous in any way at all. Just the opposite, in fact. Something that I'm afraid I can't say in relation to yourself. And I have my eyes very much wide open, now as ever.
My comments over the competence of PYB staff were directed not at yourself but at those who questioned it. Norrie et al.
Live and let live FFS. As Simon has said, they are looking after their own needs and their clients just as you are yours (gammy knee -or whatever- for example). I genuinely belive they are sinsitive, on the whole, to the needs of other crag users.
Well, OK. If you spoke to them in a rational and calm manner and they were arrogant back, fair enough. But were they 'arrogant' becasue they didn't do as you requested ?
"Open my eyes" eh ? Exactly what I always do. In my experience of PyB staff I can honestly say I've never found them arrogant or pompous in any way at all. Just the opposite, in fact. Something that I'm afraid I can't say in relation to yourself. And I have my eyes very much wide open, now as ever.
My comments over the competence of PYB staff were directed not at yourself but at those who questioned it. Norrie et al.
Live and let live FFS. As Simon has said, they are looking after their own needs and their clients just as you are yours (gammy knee -or whatever- for example). I genuinely belive they are sinsitive, on the whole, to the needs of other crag users.
In reply to Jonno: Intiguing that they get slated for 'hogging' the pass, so they go to the arse end of Snowdonia and get equally slated.
Seems some people are never happy!
Seems some people are never happy!
In reply to Graham B:
My comments over the competence of PYB staff were directed not at yourself but at those who questioned it. Norrie et al.
And to those who are knocking the competence of the instructors, well I think you need to go and do some homework and find out just how competent some (most, in fact) of the instructors at the Brenin are.
Dear Graham
I did my homework and stand by what I stated, it was not a sweeping statement, but a specific one of incompetence, but nice people. I do not recall any of the other instructors/guides at PYB doing our routes at the time.
I hope you realise one does not have to be an instructor/guide to be competent.
When I climbed in Wales, I never saw any of the PYB instructors/guide getting in the way when they were instructing, I avoided the popular crags. I did see them out climbing for there own enjoyment and some were competent.
Norrie
My comments over the competence of PYB staff were directed not at yourself but at those who questioned it. Norrie et al.
And to those who are knocking the competence of the instructors, well I think you need to go and do some homework and find out just how competent some (most, in fact) of the instructors at the Brenin are.
Dear Graham
I did my homework and stand by what I stated, it was not a sweeping statement, but a specific one of incompetence, but nice people. I do not recall any of the other instructors/guides at PYB doing our routes at the time.
I hope you realise one does not have to be an instructor/guide to be competent.
When I climbed in Wales, I never saw any of the PYB instructors/guide getting in the way when they were instructing, I avoided the popular crags. I did see them out climbing for there own enjoyment and some were competent.
Norrie
In reply to Jonno:
As a novice climber, I can't really offer expert comment on the competence of PYB instructors (though watching the blur that "Twid" Turner became when demonstrating that sometimes it helps to move quickly across rock would lead even my inexperienced mind to deduce that he had some idea about rock climbing). However I can state categorically that everyone I have ever come into contact with there has been very polite and friendly, not just to the people they are instructing, but to anyone else they came into contact with when out and about. They also seemed to spend quite a bit of time figuring out where best to climb to avoid other people.
As a novice climber, I can't really offer expert comment on the competence of PYB instructors (though watching the blur that "Twid" Turner became when demonstrating that sometimes it helps to move quickly across rock would lead even my inexperienced mind to deduce that he had some idea about rock climbing). However I can state categorically that everyone I have ever come into contact with there has been very polite and friendly, not just to the people they are instructing, but to anyone else they came into contact with when out and about. They also seemed to spend quite a bit of time figuring out where best to climb to avoid other people.
In reply to Jonno: 1) I think it's a great shame that PyB didn't know about your friend's op, perhaps you should have forewarned them, 2) PyB seem to be dammned if they do, damned if they don't... is CyO really such an obvious ie popular venue ... wasn't in my day, sounds perfect for instruction, you just got unlucky.
In reply to Jonno:
CyO is ideal for instructing, as there are lots of average-to-poor low grade routes that you can take people on without inconveniencing others too much. However, there are also some classic low grade routes, and it sounds like these were being used - in which case maybe you should write to PyB and complain.
CyO is ideal for instructing, as there are lots of average-to-poor low grade routes that you can take people on without inconveniencing others too much. However, there are also some classic low grade routes, and it sounds like these were being used - in which case maybe you should write to PyB and complain.
> (In reply to WhiteKnight)
> individuals? (eg a peak district crag on a sunday).
> [...]
>
>
> Dear WhiteKnight
>
> I do have limited experience of PYB, as I stay in Scotland, but I have run into them. One experience was when we were doing Green Gully on Ben Nevis, we overtook 2 PYB instructors. I watched the leader coming up to the belay, and was in difficulty, I suggested bridging would be easier. Then the next problem was setting up the belay, 8 ice screws, no nuts or pegs.
>
> They were pleasant people and thanked us for our help.
>
> Norrie
> individuals? (eg a peak district crag on a sunday).
> [...]
>
>
> Dear WhiteKnight
>
> I do have limited experience of PYB, as I stay in Scotland, but I have run into them. One experience was when we were doing Green Gully on Ben Nevis, we overtook 2 PYB instructors. I watched the leader coming up to the belay, and was in difficulty, I suggested bridging would be easier. Then the next problem was setting up the belay, 8 ice screws, no nuts or pegs.
>
> They were pleasant people and thanked us for our help.
>
> Norrie
Quality,no pegs or nuts on the Ben, that makes me laugh too much!!
In reply to Anonymous: (15:57 Thu)
Gone up to 500K,s annually as it? Was the contract also extended?
Gone up to 500K,s annually as it? Was the contract also extended?
In reply to Anonymous:
You REALLY are bothered by this aren't you?
> (In reply to Anonymous) (15:57 Thu)
>
> Gone up to 500K,s annually as it? Was the contract also extended?
>
> Gone up to 500K,s annually as it? Was the contract also extended?
You REALLY are bothered by this aren't you?
> PS - Trail - top publication, just got a subscription (no it's true I really have!)
just don't use it to navigate off ben nevis!
In reply to sutty:
Was unfortunate enough to meet up with 12 of them on January Jigsaw. There was actually eight of them on the huge belay below the Agags nose, whilst another four dilled and dallied above. 2 hrs on that ledge waiting to move.
Not so daft now, would simply retreat or deviate route. But at the time was taking a couple of mates up who don't get up this way often. JJ was their choice of route.
If I se their vans it always sends a shudder down the spine.
Having said that....the Norries and Glenmore Lodge.
Any different? I don't think.
>
> Glencoe, 8 people I think on Dorsal Arete in three parties and another four on another route elsewhwere on the mountain.
> Glencoe, 8 people I think on Dorsal Arete in three parties and another four on another route elsewhwere on the mountain.
Was unfortunate enough to meet up with 12 of them on January Jigsaw. There was actually eight of them on the huge belay below the Agags nose, whilst another four dilled and dallied above. 2 hrs on that ledge waiting to move.
Not so daft now, would simply retreat or deviate route. But at the time was taking a couple of mates up who don't get up this way often. JJ was their choice of route.
If I se their vans it always sends a shudder down the spine.
Having said that....the Norries and Glenmore Lodge.
Any different? I don't think.
In reply to Anonymous:
Thats less than a penny per person in the UK, not really the end of the world.
Thats less than a penny per person in the UK, not really the end of the world.
In reply to stu_dent:
Well it could be the end of the world if you are a commercial operator down the road who has to compete against this kind of unfair subsidy.
Well it could be the end of the world if you are a commercial operator down the road who has to compete against this kind of unfair subsidy.
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