UKC

Following last weeks PYB thread I found a very interesting situation at Clogwyn yr Oen on Sunday. I walked up from Tan y Grisiau with the two folk I was climbing with to be passed bt two RAF mountain rescue vehicles (a van and a landrover).
They parked at the base of the crag, on the verge, and about 8-10 folk (male & female) got out. Blah Blah lets do X,Y,Z. etc. We walked on and upto Craig Fach now that CYO was looking like it was going to become RAF crag for the day. It certainly didn't look like a structured training event, rather a bit of a Sunday cragging jolly.
What MORAL (not legal or permissive) right do the RAF have to drive up and park below the crag like this? They are 100% subsidised by the tax payer. I'm pretty sure that the role they fill is MILITARY, not civil too. OK they may assist in civilian rescues occasionaly but essentially they exist to find downed aircraft.
Now, before any squaddie gets their safety catch off I've got military credentials and I'm not having a pop at the forces.... so don't start putting down the covering fire.
BASIC QUESTION - Why can the RAF be allowed to park at the base of CYO when they're out for a day's cragging, why don't the walk up, and spread out to different crags as PYB seem to be expected to do?

Phill

Craig Fach to ourselves all day.....cool

In reply to WhiteKnight:

Aren't you being a bit precious and whingey? The walk up to these crags isn't too arduous so you've not been cheated much. The "occassional" resuce is far less occassional than their finding of downed aircraft and I'm sure there are many people who are greatful too them.

Finally, life's not fair and if this is the biggest inequity you've had to deal with this week then things aren't too bad are they?

In reply to WhiteKnight:

Dear WhiteKnight

Basically, they are unfit, you don't think they can walk far, do you?

Norrie

In reply to WhiteKnight:

Yehh....they are lazy gits.At least the PyB crowd walk up.

In reply to Tyler:
It's not about being forced to walk to the crag, where are you comming from on this?
Last week God know who and their dog were carping on about the Brenin hogging the crag etc with their courses. Yet 7 days later it seems OK for the RAF to drive upto the same crag and pile on? Sound like double standards to me. The general public aren't allowed to drive up so why the RAF?
What's so 'precious', to use your word, about the sodding RAF mountain rescue team?
I suppose it'll be OK to get them helicoptered into any mountain crag as well eh?
As for their contribution to CIVILIAN mountain rescue get yourself some facts. Helicopters (not a dedicated MRT asset but general Search & Rescue copters) are well used (50% of callouts?), but how often are the foot sloggers involved in civvi call-outs? Christ, who'd base an MRT in Stafford?
Once upon a time, when I was involved with Llanberis team, we requested a chopper for a rescue on Snowdon. Outcome? We had to wait 45 minutes? Reason, they couldn't spare a 'copter because there was a VIP flight over the North Sea and they kept the chopper at Valley on 'stand-by' in case of a problem.
But the question still stands..what's so special about the RAF mrt that they can drive to the moelwyn crags for a morning's recreation?

In reply to WhiteKnight:

Because they've got a key to the gate?

In reply to WhiteKnight: They were there on saturday too but parked in the carpark, together with a large uni meet. CYO was the busiest I've ever seen it. Still, all the routes of vs and above were free so you could climb whichever of them you wanted to.

Pete.

In reply to Kipper:
Anyone can get a key from the Hydro Centre, it's a tourist attraction. However, they can't park at the foot of the crag or stop in the passing places.

In reply to WhiteKnight:


erm, just responding to your original post.


Personally I don't have a problem with either the PyB or the RAf, I'm sure most people who were against PyB would be against the RAf. Who do you feel is demonstrating double standards?


Fine by me in principle, though I think they might have a job justifiying it to their pay masters.


Don't know.


What is your point? Because one was late once we should never use RAf helicopters? Helicopeters aren't really useful in rescues because of their unreliability?


What is so special is that they have a special arrangement with the landowners that allows them to do this, obviously.

In reply to Tyler:

I can see where WK is coming from on this, though I wouldn't be quite so vehement about it as he is.

The "special arrangement" is open to anybody: ie, to get a key for the gate from the visitor centre ( on those occasions when they're open/ have them available).

The rule then is that you drive to the *top* car park, by the dam, and walk back down to the crags. I can't see why anyone, even the RAF, would be given dispensation to park either at the side of the road or in one of the passing places on this narrow single track road. They'd cause an obstruction wherever they were, or cut up the soft verge in the few places you could park off the tarmac.

In reply to WhiteKnight: Dear Mr WhiteKnight, had you fallen off Craig Fach at some point on Sunday and broken your leg, how grateful would you have been that an RAF MRT Landrover had been on hand? I expect, by your original post, that you would have told them to go back to the gate and walk back up to your assistance?! Maybe the Landrover is allowed access because they may be called out at any point and it would save precious time in reaching a casualty. To comment on the fact that they play very little part in civillian rescue on the hill is absolutely absurd. Any assistance on the hill is invaluable, whether it be assisting other crews or carrying out a rescue in their own right. Organisations such as these have been a Godsend for many many people over the years in their time of need. I only hope none of them have read the original post should you happen to have an accident in the future. As for their attendance at a crag in numbers, they have just as much right to be there as the next man. I very much doubt that any toproping was carried out. Perhaps crags should be solely for the use of individuals and no groups of any kind should be allowed access. I don't think so.
In short, I find your comments a load of b*ll*cks and whilst your surviving your massive rockfalls and avalanches, take great care not to get hurt as you may need one of those nasty MRT's and a military helicopter to save your life.
I only hope you do not pass this sort of drivel on to your students.
Everyone, without exception, should be fully behind any form of our rescue teams in the UK as they do a truely remarkable job.

Civillian,
(getting his safety catch off and laying down covering fire)

PS Military credentials my a**e, Sea Cadet?

In reply to Trailer Boy: Excellent, saves me having to write that. Having been attended to by the RAF team from Valley, I wouldn't mind if they asked me to carry them up there and then they spent all day hanging curtains from the crag. The dog's B-llocks all of them, long may they continue - and if it's a perk of the job to drive where others have to walk, great!!!

In reply to Trailer Boy:
a) I wouldn't have fallen off, fool.
b) The RAF had gone home when it started to rain and we were still climbing.
c) Any rescue would be co-ordinated through the civilian police who would call out a civilian team. Unless it was a massive search I suspect the RAF wouldn't be asked.
d) Lets see some EVIDENCE please as to the total RAF MRT contribution to civilian rescues (excluding the very valuable helecopter assistance). It's not their job fool!
e) The 'students' pointed it out on the way to the crag, not me. To be honest I suggested some feeble reasons to possibly justify it but there wern't any convincing ones.

To be Frank (not my real name) your just talking utter crap mate, it's the simple squaddie stimulus/response stuff.....He's questioned the forces....therefore he must be anti forces....thus have a pop! It's why so many civvis see the forces as pillocks. Turn the record over man. BTW just wondering why you checked out my profile before posting? Looking for any other reasons to try to deflect attention away from the question or undermine my credibility????Thick Tw*t or what?

The RAF MRT do a great job as an RAF asset, period. However, all I comment on/question is how come they can be treated more favourably (?) than others? Especially when there's so much comment on the way the Brenin were working on the same crag???

As for the Sea Cadets....wow! That's a corker! Did you think it all up yourself by any chance?

Dick (not my name either....yours?)

In reply to WhiteKnight:


I'm sure we'd all be fascinated to know what these are.

and I'm not having a pop at the forces....

Sounds like it to me.

I don't know what the RAF were doing there at the weekend but would be very surprised if it was a "jolly" and not training of some description.

On a lighter note:

How can you tell an RAF pilot in a crowded Bar?

He'll come up and tell you!

In reply to tb:
Top joke............good to see a lighter note in the topic....

In reply to WhiteKnight:

good point, if he'd done that then it would be clear exactly what your 'military credentials' are. Not too sure how much use toy soldiers would be in a rescue situation though

In reply to Andrew Primrose:

And if it's a perk of the job to block up the road so, say, an ambulance being called out to someone at the top (dam) carpark can't get through, is that also great?

I'm not saying it *was* parked like that, but the only way to park at the bottom of Clogwen yr Oen *without* blocking the road is either to park in one of the single-track passing bays (each with its attendant "No Parking" sign) or to chew up the soft verge just by the wet bit (near the broken downsection of wall).

Personally, I'm quite happy if the RAF team choose to have a day's recreation on C-y-O, whatever, but I can't see why they should park at the bottom. If there's a call-out and they're all at differnt points in their respective climbs, the first one down could leg it up to the dam car park and be back with the vehicle before the last of them have finished packing up, so I don't think it can possibly be a time saved/ safety issue.

I think WhiteKnight is out of order in moaning about them putting 8 or 10 people on the one crag, but I also reckon that those of you who say "anything should go" wrt parking, just because they're an MRT, are out of order, too.

In reply to WhiteKnight:
Bad show WhiteKnight
As a civilian member of a team in Scotland I'd say we rely on RAF involvement in about 60-75% of our winter call outs. When a walk in can be as much as 6 hours or more in heavy drifts and stretchering out even more again I don't think you should begrudge such a small perk.

In reply to WhiteKnight:

Bit of a rant for a head of department, do you talk to the kids like that?

RAF will probably be on call and so keep vehicles as close as possible in case a plane from Valley or elsewhere goes down. They used to be the rescue team of preference in the 60s, then local teams got organised and helicopters came along and now they have a back up role in the main. Only S+R choppers are front line now, and the MRT teams will often turn out as back up for that.

In reply to WhiteKnight:

Perhaps the RAF were told that these guys had returned....
http://www.pardoes.com/climbing/slack.htm

In reply to Simon Caldwell: Top one, nice to see a lighter note on the topic. Did you check his profile to undermine his credibility?

In reply to sutty:

As I said above, I don't see that as an issue. They'll be scattered over the crag, as will their gear. If a callout comes through, first man down can have legged it up to the top car park and brought the vehicle down in about 5 minutes...certainly before they're all got down and packed up.

Would it be OK for them to dump their vehicle on zebra crossing zigzags while they went to the chippy on the way home, on the grounds that that was as near to the chippie as they could get, in case a callout occurred?

In reply to Slugain Howff:
Get Bent! (only joking). I don't begrudge them at all - If I could drive up I'd do so!, I just find the situation kind of ironic that the Brenin get slated and the RAF are thought of as angelic mountain saviours.(ironic too that after good instruction PYB students possibly have less use for MR than anyone???)

It's really a bit of an experiment in posting this to be honest. Last week it seemed that there was quite a bit of anti 'PYB and their affluent students' stuff going round because they turned up en-mass in the Moelwyns yet this week everyone seems to be right behind the boys in blue and their MRT doing something similar (?).

Why so much pro RAF/anti PYB opinion for the same kind of stuff?

Strange?

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I keep them there on 'stand-by' in case of a big call out.....

Bastard, I knew the wargames thing would get me someday!

In reply to WhiteKnight:

I think you'll find that the same people who were defending PyB were defending the RAF (I'm certainly one).

I think everyone needs to distinguish between the needs of people who do this for a living and those of us who do it for fun.

In reply to WhiteKnight:

Just a thought but perhaps CyO could become an 'instructional crag' and PyB and the armed forces could have it to themselves on the understanding that they can't go anywhere else.
Mind you,if PyB and the RAF turn up en masse at CyO do you think they'll slug it out to see who gets Slick and who gets Slack.
My money is on PyB. Those RAF boys are just big Faeries !

In reply to WhiteKnight: Thought you might like to check this out for your collection,

http://www.anticsonline.co.uk/1222_1_1105220.html

In reply to: Trailer Boy:
ROTFLMAO :-0

In reply to WhiteKnight:


Must say....you're easily pleased !

In reply to Trailer Boy:
They were bigger than that! there were two of them!

It'd look good in the rockery with some Airfix soldiers climbing the boulders.....just like those slate blocks in portmadoc trinket shops!


(good piss take though, bastard - only 'cos I won't better it.....bugger)

In reply to WhiteKnight:

Dear WhiteKnight

I have not looked uo your profile, and think it sad that people are giving you grief.

I don't think there is anything wrong or odd in playing with toy soldiers as long as it does not interfer with your homework.

If, they keep it up get your dad to them.

Norrie

In reply to Jonno:
Very easily pleased......

It was ideal for what we were doing (all that slow moving teaching climbing kind of stuff) and we didn't f*ck anyone else off by getting in their way on CYO or any other 'busy' crags.

To be honest I think the Brenin could look into using it for some of their courses, it would clean up quickly with trafic and take a lot of the pressure off CYO at the w/e perhaps. Downside is it's farther to walk but they could drive to the lake and walk down?

Then....no one would know if the Brenin were at the crag 'til they'd walked up there......fantastic.

In reply to Norrie Muir:
My dad ran off when I was 3 years old

....but do not feel sad for me, for I am loved now....

P.S. Got any armies, we could have a fight?

In reply to WhiteKnight:
Got any armies, we could have a fight?

Dear WhiteKnight

The amount of tax I pay I think you could say I have an army, but, they are only good for fighting non-whites.

Norrie

In reply to WhiteKnight: One for the rockery ,

http://commune.jinkies.org.uk/chris/models/sea_king/

In reply to Trailer Boy:
I could hang it in the tree like a wind chime????

Where can I get a Tornado from to bury in the rockery so the Airfix boys can look for it?

In reply to WhiteKnight:

You can re-enact the actual moment it was forced to crash:
http://www.acsupplyco.com/estes/patriot.htm

In reply to psdatwork:
I could use some of those 'Armies of the Crusades' arabs that I've got to look like the bad guys.......

Oh, thankyou UKC, you've given me something to fill my evening rather than watching silly footlyballing on the TV in the pub......spank