UKC

The British Mountaineering Council (BMC) have purchased £10,000 worth of Fixe glue-in and Petzl expansion bolts and have published a bolters Installers Guide to launch their Better Bolts Campaign

If your local area has routes with corroded or damaged bolts this is important news.

Full story at UKClimbing.com's news page.... http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:



Sod off - I know its April 1st today - your not catching me that easily!


Chris

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I've just heard a muffled explosion from the direction of Macclesfield, sounded a bit like Ken Wilson exploding...

In reply to Serpico:

Early reports are that there are no serious casualities confirmed, but several people are being treated for minor burns after a wave of hot air burst through the streets...



Just how thick is the wedge going to get?!

In reply to Fiend:
Well we all know that BMC stands for 'Bolt More Crags'.
There's already been a big order from Bolton apparently.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

This is great news, well done the BMC

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
How many bolts and lower-off does £10,000 get you?

I'm thinking to do Stanage we need approx 1500 lower-offs and 9000 bolts.....

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
But since in their guide they recommend NOT using the grade of material they have purchased in coastal areas all you guys with sea cliffs full of dodgy rotting gear can presumably p**s off.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Anyone fro the BMC know if this £10K includes the (extensive) bolting already done at Cheddar?

Alan

In reply to jimtitt:

It's OK, Jim, we'll do all right as we are.

Mick

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

No, it's new stuff. Why?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

It is a pity the guidance continues to encourage the AISI method of materials classification rather than the current European system. It is even more disappointing that it continues to pedal the nonsense of "marine grade..".

Also I couldn't find any mention of Stress Corrosion Cracking despite being told to see section 1 in the appendix.

In reply to Veronica:

£10K seems a hell of a lot. If the Cheddar stuff is on top of that then the full amount the BMC has put towards bolting in the last year or so may be nearer £15K or even £20K.

Just seems rather a remarkable figure for those of us who were involved in bolting debates in the late 80s/early 90s.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC: hey alan, £10K "seems a hell of a lot" for a slice of britney's hair, but not for thousands of bolts. the BMC got an extremely good deal. as for £15K or even £20K being a "rather remarkable figure" that'll be because it's 15 or 20 years since those debates and things (even, shock horror, the BMC) move on!

i'm not sure how to read your last sentence. you seem to be trying to make a point without actually making it.

now then!

In reply to martin k:

How many thousands Martin?

And...does the South Lakes have a bolt fund? Ian Cooksey and co have done a lot work there. Still more to do and I would love to get involved.

Mick

In reply to martin k:

They may have got a good deal, and the BMC have moved on but I am flabbergasted that:

a) they have spent 10K on bolts (better value than legal advice I guess)
b) there hasn't been an absolute uproar



Chris (befuddled)

In reply to Chris Craggs:
a) It's only about one bolt for every six members I reckon and
b) The uproar starts as the six argue about who gets to clip it first.

In reply to martin k:

No need to be sensitive over this, I actually heartily approve (as long as the bolts are well distributed, and don't just find there way into certain 'approved' people's hands), it is just incredulity at the amount.

I almost want to go back in time and sit at one of those meetings we had (that one at the Foundry, for example, in around 1992) and stand up and say, "Oh, by the way, the BMC will spend £10 to £15K on bolts in 2006/7 for general use around the country". Then stand back and listen to the 'thunk' of 50 jaws hitting the floor.

Alan

In reply to jimtitt:

Thats not true Jim. We had to make a decision to try and get the best value for money we could, which meant ordering in bulk. Not being individuals working secretly in our shed, we had to purchase commercially available anchors made to EN959. Believe it or not, the choice was limited, and in fact there were NO options available for glue-in bolts which we felt were suitable for coastal applications. So, knowing how important a part of UK climbing that sea cliffs make, we decided to specially order some bolts which are suitable for that purpose. So we've ended up with a mixture of Fixe glue-ins, some are made in AISI 304, some in 316 (sorry Horse, thats the specs the manufacturer uses!) These cost more, but we think its worth it. On the other hand, we didn't order any extra long bolts for soft sandstones. I wish we had the money to! Don't forget, the amount of bolts we have bought is a drop in the ocean compared to what is needed to re-equip the Peak and all the other places that so desperately need it. I'm glad this move by the BMC is stimulating discussion, because if the issue is raised, hopefully it will mean more money and involvement from activists feeding into local bolt funds.

Dan Middleton
BMC Technical Officer

In reply to Alan James - UKC: £10K is a tiny amount in comparison to what other Federations spend.
I have spent well over £2,000 on bolts and most of that was at trade deals etc. and I have only bolted and re-equipped a few routes in comparison to someone like Gary Gibson. That doesn't count drills bits etc.

£10K wouldn't re-quipped Lower Pen Trywn completely from start to finish. That is how small an area is covered by this much cash.

I was at those meetings back at The Foundry etc and sure there would have been some people's jaws hitting the floor but most of the people who attended those meeting were either into doing sports climbs, a few of us, or totally opposed to bolting. Most people who went out and climbed sports routes couldn't be bothered to attend, this was in the days before free chip butties at BMC meetings.

I agree with Martin, times move on even at The BMC. Lets hope for even more money for even more new bolts next year.

In reply to Alan James - UKC: ho! ho! hello alan. i agree, there's no need for you to be sensitive about this positive, forward thinking, benefits-many move by the BMC. you know how much bolts and hangers cost..."a complete unit"...and ten grand is hardly expensive in the scheme of things. we could have spent five hundred quid, but that would have been a bit pointless!

who are the "approved" people that you don't approve of, by the way?

cheerio

In reply to martin k:

I think it's great. Well done BMC.

Mick

In reply to martin k:

It's not 'approved' people that I don't approve off, so much as unapproved people I do approve of but who aren't approved by the bolt dispensing committee.

Perhaps the committee will approve of anyone, perhaps there isn't even a committee.

Alan

In reply to danm:

There is a serious point to my point. It would probably be regarded as geekishly pedantic on this thread so I will make it via mail.

Cheers

In reply to Alan James - UKC:


I see where you are coming from. Bolts distributed to individuals for new routes and worse, retrobolting. This has happened before, where monies for replacing old bolts has been used, as the Americans say, inappropriately.

As long as stock and inventory control is tight and there are public records, and I'm sure there will be, then accountablity should be transparant to all.

Ken Wilson forbid that some rogue bolter using BMC bolts would equip Centop Corner as a sport route!

The American Safe Climbing Organisation has faced such accusations in the past, quite publicly.

BMC?

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
This is a good point Mick. To answer a few concerns:

1. Bolts will only go to bolt funds, not individuals
2. Applications will be for specific projects only, which will have to be approved by the local area committee. The last thing we need is a load of BMC bolts being put in and then the landowner pulling access because of drilling during the nesting season, or similar antics. The area committees will be able to make sure this doesn't happen by screening the applications.
3. No doubt there will accusations of cronyism, and of course bolt fund activists are going to make applications to re-equip their favourite routes. Well, the only answer to this is join them. If you really feel that an area needs regenerating, take a leaf out of the Slate bolt fund book and get amongst it. If we can help, we will.

Cheers

Thanks Dan.

Will their be a public record of where the bolts have gone and where they have been placed?

Personally I have no worries, but I bet there are a lot of climbers out there who will be foaming at the mouth (not just a climber called Ken) about the BMC supplying bolts.

A record, open to all, maybe online, will I'm sure allay some of their fears.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: We'll publish where the bolts have gone in our annual report, available once a year on request to BMC members only, if you have a trouser leg rolled up and quint. For a fiver. How's that sound?

In reply to danm:

Any chance of something like this Dan?

http://www.safeclimbing.org/replacement.htm

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

More specifically

e.g.,

http://www.safeclimbing.org/areas/california/alabamahills.htm

In reply to Chris Craggs:
but I am flabbergasted that:

I blame the Costa Blanca and the insidious influence of those Rockfaxies.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

For anyone interested Part 1 of the guide is here:

www.thebmc.co.uk/safety/tech/bwg_part1.pdf

And a right rivetting read it is too

In reply to Simon Lee:

Hmmmm - I have always blamed climbing walls and their inability to educate their users in the traditions of UK climbing,


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:
That doesn't explain why the recent retro-bolting has been lead by old boys with a history of trad.

In reply to Chris Craggs: The no 1 UK climbing tradition = do not chip.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

The pre-climbing wall generation is not making much of a fuss on this thread either - maybe because they all have second homes in Sella.

In reply to Simon Lee: Don't forget that climb walls actually pre-date you (not me though as I was born in the year the Leeds Uni wall was made) so this blaming walls ignores the fact that walls have been around for 43 years, or longer if Gordon BENDle (founder of BENDcrete) is correct.

Ps you are right to blame the Rockfaxies as the earliest RF that I have (Fax 02) deliberately doesn't mention chipping or retro-bolting

In reply to GraemeA at home:

Quite, and you are to be applauded for employing outreach trad climbers at the Works to educate boulderers on how to place rp's and the correct wearing of ron hills

In reply to Alan James - UKC:



The time Harpur Hill was stripped is lost on many a folk - the Ken factor lasted as long as a meeting and then we all got back on with it slowly...

I hope that the money is well spent - and the the sympathetic bolting is done by those in the know..??

BTW - when was this ever discused between meetings? (or was I asleep?? ;0)

Si

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Just to clarify: The £10k's worth of bolts we've just bought is over and above the Cheddar work.

The BMC's contribution to Cheddar primarily supported Health & Safety report writing costs (i.e. Martin Crocker's work) by the way - not the purchase of bolts.

Dave Turnbull