UKC

Does anyone know when the belay method which is so-called the hand-over-hand on the brake side became compulsory in indoor walls? Also, where does the guidance come from?

Hand-sliding techniques which are used by many, climbers are often challenged but are theoretically just the revere of the lead climbing method.  Many would argue that the slide method provides a faster response time and is safer in many situations where hand over hand which is safe can provide a moment where control is lost due to the extra movement and provides little room for dynamic belaying. 

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

Dynamic Belaying on top rope?  New one on me....

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

I think the argument is that in sliding your hand back up to the belay plate, you are no longer applying a force in the braking direction. This would be unlikely to make a difference if a climber were to fall in my opinion, but a situation where you were mid-slide and the rope began to slide through your hands due to a slight release of grip to slide is possible. 

I feel like its more of a liability thing for lots of climbing gyms, if there is a method that has fewer possibilities for failure, its probably worth enforcing.

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

I'm with slawrence: if the climbing wall are requiring it, it's so they can reduce injuries/insurance claims (or reduce insurance exposure by being able to point to a risk-averse rule).  Hand over hand may not give the smoothest belay but it removes a point of failure and that makes it "best" from their point of view.

In reply to Niall_H:

Great Points, but compared to lead belaying, where does the point of failure come in do you think? 

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

I think you'd enjoy the recent youtube series by hard is easy. He looks at this in detail and also tests out whether relative beginners can hold real falls using the techniques.

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

There isn't a way to pay out when belaying a leader without sliding.  There is a way to belay top rope (or take in) without sliding.  Thus that's of no relevance, what's relevant is that the safest (in their view) method available is used in each case.

I'm just waiting for a wall to mandate brake assist devices, that'll put the cat among the pigeons.

Probably also relevant that when sliding down the rope to pay out you can do so with some grip still in place, whereas if you slide up with any grip you won't, er, slide up.

In reply to Robbo1:

I think this beginner perspective is also really important. It is easy as someone with a decent amount of belaying experience to understand that you can slide without failure, but for a beginner (the people most likely to be on TR) this is not so certain. In this instance the method with the least possible negative outcomes is the hand-over-hand. One hand always applying a braking force to the rope, while slower and less efficient, means that the belayer will always be in a position to catch a potential fall.

In reply to slawrence1001:

It's also easier for staff to see that people are doing it correctly, as if there's an accident it's likely they will share some level of responsibility with the errant belayer.

That'll be partly why some walls mandate a figure of 8 with a stopper being the only way people tie in - a bowline with Yosemite finish (or somesuch) is harder to check at a glance when floor walking.  The other being that even a partly tied Fig 8 will likely hold a fall, whereas a partly tied bowline absolutely won't.

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

Is it? Where? And in what context?

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

The point of failure comes in that you can't grip the rope at all as you slide your hand up the rope whereas you can when paying rope out when lead belaying. If the climber falls when you're a sliding your hand up the rope it is credible, especially if the belayer isn't paying that much attention, that by the time they close their fist on the brake that the rope is already moving too fast amd they don't hold the fall, or even if they do then hold it they could get rope burn injuries which the wall would probably rather not have happen on their premises. When lead belaying the brake hand will feel the rope tug even when sliding the brake hand and this will (should?) trigger the belayer to tighten their grip. I think that the rule is reasonable in keeping with ALARP

In reply to S Ramsay:

Well put, I also think that once you get used to hand-over-hand method, it isn't significantly slower than a slide. If your climber is climbing so fast that you cant keep up with hand-over-hand then they should probably climb a couple grades up!

In reply to slawrence1001:

Most of the braking force of a belay device is created by the angle the rope makes through the device, rather than the grip of the belay hand on the rope, which on its own is wholly inadequate. (This was also true of the traditional belaying method with the rope round the body and a twist round the wrist of the gloved belay hand.) The braking power of the slide method is slightly less than the hand over hand method, initially, but immediately the rope comes tight there is essentially no difference. 

Out of doors, I have usually used the slide method, supplemented by the hand over hand method. On the face of it, the hand over hand method appears safer, but I actually think there is more to go wrong with it, and on balance I prefer the slide method for the speed at which rope can be let out or taken in.

In reply to Andy Say:

There have been several walls in the UK where someone in charge has come rushing over when I have been using the slide method, and demanded that I use the other - to which I have obliged, because I accept that the gym has a right to impose its own rules. But I haven't experienced these demands in other countries. Virtually everyone I have ever trad-climbed with out of doors has used the slide method; but with sport climbing, hand over hand is very common. 

In reply to John Stainforth:

This happens to me too. I just do as I'm told in a wall, but both my partner and I are happy with slide method together (I might not be ok with it with a new partner).

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

Your thread title says belay, presumably both lead and top rope , then the poll mentions top toping.

Both methods , with clued up belayer, are safe for top roping.

The problems arise when hand over hand taught " climbers" try leader belaying, if  my  observations at climbing walls are anything to go by.

The instructions for the sticht plate I bought over 50 years ago were to tunnel the ropes. This means keeping the braking hand always below the plate, thumb up and always ready to grip  it.  Always having a first runner in on multi pitch belays so any load is upwards is also good policy. 

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

I’d argue it’s a much bigger risk to ask somebody to change their belaying technique from one to the other.

If you’ve spent all your climbing life doing 1 method, having to force the other method to satisfy a wall’s rule would be a huge distraction from focussing on the climber imo. 
 

(I slide because I prefer to keep my dominant hand in contact with the brake rope at all times. I’d much rather hold a fall “mid slide” than solely with my non-dominant hand crossed over my body - but both work fine!)

In reply to John Stainforth:

I do agree, and if I was with an experienced belayer I’d be more than happy for them to belay in any method as long as it is safe and it’s one they are proficient with.

I agree that the slide can definitely be safer and that the majority of braking force is from the device. I think my point, as muddled as it was, was that if you are an inexperienced beginner, the hand over hand method is much better for eliminating user error as well as supervision.

When trad climbing, especially with two ropes, I couldn’t give a rats arse if the belayer slides or uses their hands. I would however at a wall being belayed by a beginner.

In reply to slawrence1001:

I confess that when I am out of doors climbing with people I know and trust, I have never looked closely at how they are belaying me. (I probably just give them the briefest of buddy-system type glances to make sure that nothing looks weird or out of place.)

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

You should always have at least one hand firmly gripping the rope, as long as you are doing that I would suggest that how you move the other hand should have little impact.

Beyond that I would think that sliding may have a slight advantage as a hand that is off the rope whilst going hand over hand is no use to anyone.

At the end of the day if you give people the power to write rules they will inevitably write some that you don't agree with, you just have to decide whether to comply or go elsewhere.

In reply to timjones:

The kind of sliding being discussed which doesn't involve bringing the other hand down doesn't involve having at least one hand firmly gripping the rope.  What's being discussed is I think what is also known as "tunnelling" which involves the left hand staying on the live rope and the right hand sliding up without any hand firmly holding the brake rope.

I doubt any wall would care about the version of "VK123" where you put the other hand in 2 below the brake hand and slide the brake hand up, it's just as safe as hand-over-hand, other than that it's a bit awkward.  It does have the advantage that you won't "follow off the rope".

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

The issue is that sliding is safe, perhaps safer *if* (and only if) the belayer is competent and experienced.

However this is the problem... the climbing walls don't know who has what level of competence (not their fault) so sadly it becomes based on the lowest common denominator 

In reply to Andy Say

Do you know walls which allow the hand slide method? Certainly at the Reach in London it appears to be mandatory. 

In reply to S Ramsay: ALARP?

In reply to John Stainforth:

I fully agree with this which is why I find some of the explanations as to why its wrong baffling. I think at some point we will all have to belay through a machine....

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax: I've moved to using the BD pilot indoors and using the hand over hand method for toproping with that is 'unsatisfactory' to be polite.  And absolutely no safer as you need to spend a disproportionate amount of time with the hand in a forward position where the braking action is reduced.

Know your device and knowing how to use it is a good rule to use

In reply to wbo2:

Im interested to know where walls get their best practice advice from as at some point I think lead belaying will see an impact in some form? I think those who climb a lot know there devices well and are well experienced belayers 80% of the time. It is a shame though that this method perhaps beginner method is pushed upon others using acceptable and safe methods also. 

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

If the climber is moving fast, I'll probably use hand over hand, because it feels more secure. If I'm making small adjustments I'll just slide my brake hand a bit. I think that enforcing a particular method could cause errors because muscle memory can be difficult to go against. 

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

As Low As Reasonably Practicable - it's a Health and Safety term.

As an example, the best way not to get injured climbing is not to go climbing.  But given that the whole point of going there is to go climbing, it wouldn't be "reasonably practicable" not to go climbing, but standardising operating procedures (knots and belay methods) is and helps to reduce risk to that level.

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

For top rope walls in I think Australia have you use their fixed Grigris into ground anchors.  I doubt it'd go any further than that, but I do think at some point brake assist devices will become mandatory at walls because they do objectively reduce risk while not really adversely affecting the activity.  I'm yet to find one I like, though, lowering off and paying out is almost always utterly cack-handed.

In reply to Neil Williams: I actually think fixing the Gri gri towards the ground is not great as for good belaying you need to move around, and it's a quick way of getting slack in and out. 

How many have you tried? Me and a regular partner tried a load over a few months.... most of the time now I use the aforementioned pilot.  I also use a ggia jul, gri gri 2 and a pivot, and the one I am now most wary of is the Pivot, which is a change. In terms of actual use, practice makes perfect, and for top rope, tunneling not 1,2,3,V

In reply to Neil Williams:

I don’t disagree that a Grigri will reduce objective risk but part of me thinks if you go too far to safety you end up causing more danger when people decide to try trad climbing and suddenly are presented with twin ropes and an ATC. 

Even grigris attached to the ground mean you don’t learn how to properly dynamic belay with a grigri.

I think it’s important, even if you don’t let people use them indoors, for people to learn and understand how to use non-assisted belay devices.
 

Obviously you aren’t arguing for mandatory grigri use, I just can’t believe that’s how it is at walls in aus

In reply to wbo2:

I learnt tunneling from a video by Hard is Easy. 

youtube.com/watch?v=03ext7Dahxo&

In reply to Robbo1:

Too right.  I am really into Hard Is Easy at that moment. The last one I saw was about slings. 

In reply to CantClimbTom:

I know, that at The Castle, to toprope you need to physically demonstrate competency and at Parthian Wandsworth I had to both do a visual analysis and a physical competency with an instructor. At AWCC I had to demonstrate putting on a harness, rethreaded of eight with a double stopper knot and V2 the KNEE123 belay method. I've lead belayed with ATC at  The Foundry and AWCC Sheffield.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I mainly use my GriGri for toprope belaying but the times I had lead belayed my BD ATC and someone elses ATC style device.

In reply to wbo2:

I've never had a tube device use - e.g. BD Pivot and  Mammut Smart 2.0 - but at ICA training and assessment we were taught about the CT Click Up and how to use it for toprope belaying. 

Too right. 

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

BD Pilot and Mammut Smart behave differently to a tube device when lowering (as do the various Edelrid Juls) as you have to lift them up using the thumb loop/ lever feature to release them.

They are good bits of kit that offer some of the benefits of a gri gri for less cost and more similarity to traditional belay plates.

In reply to Neil Williams:

certainly the walls I last used in Adelaide had fixed grigris for top roping, and the (to me) crazy hand over hand method was compulsory.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

I accept you may prefer tunnelling and be competent at it, but it's bizarre to suggest that VK123 is "crazy", it's a simple method with a simple rule - ALWAYS have a hand firmly holding the brake rope - which means it's easy to teach to and observe in beginners.

In reply to spenser:

I don't have a Smart but will perhaps try one, it does seem to be the closest to a tube device in terms of how it behaves, though unless they now do one with two slots it's not suitable for belaying on half ropes.

I own a Grigri and a Mega Jul, Grigris are what they are, I thought I'd like the latter but I find it really cack-handed for paying out and lowering.  Have tried a Click-up and found it a bit clumsy.  Perhaps they'll improve more over time.

In reply to wbo2:

This was for top-rope, you don't have to do much moving around for that.  For leading the system is different, where permitted, but they tend to be stricter on checking people can lead belay and lead properly unlike UK walls.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I really like the mammut smart (and yes the Alpine Smart is suitable for double ropes). Having learnt on a standard tube device I find it much more intuitive than the grigri for smoothly and safely paying out slack to a leader.

In answer to the OP. After 16 years of experience working in a climbing wall I have seen a HUGE range of technique's.

Wall policies generally try to encompass what is seen as best practice, focusing on safety rather than necessary efficiency. It's also easier for staff to have simple rules about what is/isn't acceptable than for them to be expected to make a snap judgement as to if the climber is competent with sliding, or a beginner with sloppy technique. 

Take knots. Personally I like a bowline as being heavier it's easier to untie, but I can check a fig8 is correct from some distance away so it makes my job as a hall monitor easier AND less intrusive to you as a climber. Also add in the fact that if tied incorrectly a fig8 has a fair chance of holding, clearly there is good logic to the (admittedly annoying) rule that some walls have to only allow fig8 knots.

In reply to Neil Williams: I think you'll find the Smart and mega-/giga-jul get less cack handed to use when you've had some practice and adapted what you might have done previously for the new device.  Simply thinking that you can go from say a Reverso, to a Smart, and use exactly the same method will be frustrating for you.

SLawrence 

That's not the walls responsibility tho' is it. They're rightly focusing on activities in their 'house'.  You can always choose a device that does everything (gigajul) , which is one of the reasons I used it for a while (before going to the pilot that I feel is a little bit smoother)

In reply to wbo2:

I used the Mega Jul extensively just before lockdown, and I really didn't like it at all, particularly lowering, but found it cack handed in other ways too.

One thing that I really don't like about almost all these devices is that I need a hand to control the device during lowering, I prefer "both hands down" for maximum control and smooth lowering.

To be fair I'm not proposing UK walls should go to the fixed Grigri approach, Grigris do have disadvantages, not least them being a bit awkward to lower smoothly.  But I don't think walls are now primarily training grounds for outdoors so that isn't really something they have to consider any more - most indoor climbers will never climb outdoors now, it's a sport in its own right.

In reply to Jenny C:

I did a bit of experimentation with fig 8s, and found that with just one bend in the rope in the follow through it still mostly held.  Two it definitely would.  And I'm really heavy.

Fig 8 plus stopper has a very high level of redundancy indeed (and as you say is easy to check at a glance).

In reply to wbo2:

It depends if walls see themselves as being part of the wider community, the staff from the Climbing Unit definitely do, as did the staff from the Climbing Station when I was a regular there, the same goes for Climb Newcastle. It would have the following effects:

Force people who are competent at belaying with both styles to use an assisted braking device (ABD) (they probably do anyway).

Force people who are competent with a tube to learn how to use a new device (what quality of instruction will they seek, will they sit and read instructions immediately before first use?).

Force people who are novices to learn how to use an ABD and then learn how to use device with less protective measures in a much less controlled environment, likely from a peer rather than an instructor.

I would strongly favour walls having a box of belay plates allowing people to take test falls (rope clipped through an overhead quickdraw, "climber" and belayer both on the floor, pay out/ take in slack to simulate leading/ top roping until the climber unexpectedly yanks on the rope as hard as possible) while using a range of belay plates. This gives people a way of trying belay plates out so they can find one which suits them without needing to find a mate with one. This could be a perk of BMC membership for indoor climbers, it would be fairly low cost (grooved tube belay plate, Smart/ Pilot, GigaJul/ MegaJul, Click Up and Gri Gri would be my suggestions of the devices to keep in the kit) and offer people a clear route to developing an understanding of what works for them. I know that Mountain Training have a box like this as we had a play with one at a tech Committee meeting a few years ago over at the BMC office. 

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

I wish walls would worry less about what technique is used to control the dead rope when top roping, and start worrying more about belayers who are not watching their leaders when lead climbing. 

And the most critical part of the whole discussion about belaying with "non assisted" devices is, as has been pointed out above, that when the braking hand is forward of the device the brakes are off. Combine this with not watching the leader and very bad things can happen. 

Paul 

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

The more I think about it, the more I think this shouldn't be an emotive topic.

Climbing walls are great, but it's totally artificial. Just like playing football sometimes has local rules  (e.g. if you're the one who kicks the ball over that factory fence, you must to climb over and get it).

If you want to play the game, follow the local game rules, if you don't.. just go bouldering or climbing somewhere else or outdoors and do it however you want. 

Is the fact that you must use a particular device or set of devices (ATC, GriGri, whatever) and tunnel versus whatever or vica versa, is that a big deal? It's the belayer not the climber anyway. I'm more interested in how the climbing went

In reply to spenser:

Were you there when we did the DAV belay test with various devices with Tech Comm? The BD pilot was the only device my "natural reaction" would cause me to drop the climber*.

It was Martin, he looked pretty shocked!

In reply to galpinos: I'd admit surprise as well - how?

In reply to wbo2:

I did two tests and knocked the pilot into the "minimal friction" position with my thumb both times. In an actual climbing scenario, I would have lost control of the rope (IMHO).

Made me scratch the Pilot off my potential assisted belay device list.

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

A very informative video and I agree, tunnelling as they call it here is safe as. But what walls should take into consideration is that it is equally as safe and experience does count towards something.  I find the had over method contradicts my ingrained method and as such more clumsy and potentially more dangerous. I would not be keen catching a fall with my left hand alone. Also the video really pushes it so clearly shows that following all the rules (such as paying attention) and belaying correctly are all a must with both methods. It would be good to see walls accept this practice more openly especially if it’s common in lead climbing. Belaying is an art form and as such walls should understand dynamic belay methods with devices such as ATCs and allow tunnelling when top roping. 

In reply to Paul Evans:

One common variant of the hand over hand method has both hands going way forward of the belay device, which really gives me the willies, because in that position a non-assisted device has almost no braking power. When I use the slide method, the brake hand never comes forward of the device, but moves back and forth continually, from about the waist to two feet back. in a more or less straight line. When I hold a fall, my brake hand goes shooting back, either gripping the rope to take in some slack, or sliding somewhat to give a gentler catch. It never comes anywhere near the device and, at the end of holding the fall, it is way back. (The position of my hands is then more or less the same as when I am rappelling/abseiling with the same device.) Only then does the forward hand come back "hand over hand" to back up the brake hand. This might be idiosyncratic, but it is the way I have done it for about 50 years since the first Sticht plates came out.

In reply to galpinos:

Yeah, that was what I was referring to with the box of devices. I found it sufficiently useful to want to use it to familiarise myself and to use as my method of checking someone can hold a fall.

I don't think I had an opportunity to play with the Pilot, but things where the instinctual response causes failure tend to concern me (hey, anything likely to cause a failure is concerning when you are involved with nuclear reactors!).

In reply to galpinos: both interesting and worrying, any more details of the test you did? My own experience is that in a fall or locking off situation the natural movement of the rope and device always moves the device away from my thumb and auto locks/assisted brakes it. I can’t actually envisage how my thumb could interfere in a way that would keep it in minimal friction mode in a fall situation so any more detail would help. Having said the above, I’ve been “dropped/gone way further than expected” on all sorts of devices over the years - notably grigris.

In reply to Neil Morrison:

We had slings round some exposed beams with a single rope clipped through and stood climber and belayer back to back. Belayer paid rope out and took rope in for a minute or so to get their head around the functionality of the plate and then the climber pulled as hard as possible on the rope.

I think it was being considered as an improvement to belay teaching methodology for RCI type work following the big insurance claim that caused BMC subs to rise significantly a few years ago. Not sure if Mountain Training did adopt it, but I personally felt it was an excellent way of both testing new belay plates and getting confidence that a new partner will catch me regardless of if I am in sight or have given them a warning. I understand that the DAV use this method when teaching belaying.

To clarify: galpinos and myself are both members of BMC Technical Committee and this was done at a meeting to support some work that the Technical Officer (Dan Middleton) was doing with Mountain Training if I remember correctly.

In reply to spenser: Thanks for the quick response. I must admit I’m confused by the idea of an instinctual response being the issue here. Leader falls, you hold the brake end of the rope, just like any other device. The thumb action to allow low friction on any ABD is so low and it automatically flicks away from the thumb when loaded to give the assist. But if folk have experienced it then it’s a thing to watch for.

In reply to Neil Morrison:

I wasn't paired up with galpinos and tried a different device (a Smart I think which my "Climber" was very complimentary of the performance of) so I can't talk to the behaviour of the specific device, only the methodology used.

The geometry assisted devices are all very sensitive to krab cross sectional diameter as well, too big and it won't lock at all, too thin and it will slip or creep through.

In reply to spenser: Thanks and good point re the biner 

In reply to Neil Williams:

I'm not sure that's what everyone responding is talking about. My immediate reaction on reading the OP was that they were talking about top-rope lowering where there are two recognised methods: hand over hand, or alternate slide/grip. In both methods one hand always grips the dead rope tight. In my experience alternate slide/grip is what is usually now taught at walls. The only disadvantage of this method I can see is that it can degenerate into allowing both hands to slide - which is why I've tended to introduce beginners using hand over hand. But I've not come across a wall that doesn't allow both methods. 

When taking in a top rope I always use a method (eg VK123) which keeps a gripped hand on the dead rope. I'm quite surprised to learn that people don't. The only weak point I see with this method is a tendency to stay too long in the "V". 

As others have said, when paying rope out to a leader using the normal method there is a "slide" on the dead rope, but it's a "semi-gripped" slide down the dead rope - not a fully released slide up the dead rope. Leader falls are rightly normally considered more serious than top-rope falls, but in one sense they are not. In most leader falls there is more time to react before the rope goes tight - ample time, if the belayer is attentive, to turn a semi-gripped down-slide into a fully gripped hold. 

Martin

In reply to Martin Hore:

The original post refers to a belay method, not a lowering method.  Lowering is very different.

For lowering I don't like hand over hand and would generally teach people not to do it because there's a risk of "following off the rope" and letting go.  I prefer having both hands down and doing an alternating slide - it's a bit hard to describe it but it still has one hand always holding the rope firmly and moving with it, it's what I was taught when I first started.  I don't particularly like having a single hand there and sliding it as many do as the risk of loss of control (and rope burns) is greater, which might be one reason I'm not 100% comfortable with a lot of brake assist devices because that's the only possible way, as the other hand needs to release (or moderate the friction of) the device.

I've not however (like you) ever heard of a wall being bothered how lowering is done, other than if people use Grigris without holding the brake rope at all, as you'll see quite a lot at European sport crags but isn't good practice.

In reply to Neil Morrison:

It was a while ago so I can't remember the exact method of failure but it was a shock as I also tried the Mammut Smart which has a very similar geometry and couldn't recreate the failure mechanism.

I don't use either device, so didn't investigate further but it did make me think I wouldn't accept a BD pilot to belay with from someone if I had forgotten my device.

Apologies for the vague-ness!

In reply to spenser:

This is the bit I really don't get as the instinctive reaction with the brake hand is down, and that will lock the device, no matter what the thumb on the other hand is doing?  

This makes no sense to me

In reply to wbo2:

As above, I didn't get to play with the device and Galpinos can't remember what he did to cause the misbehaviour. I haven't used a BD Pilot before so I can't offer anything useful about why it may have behaved the way Galpinos described. Sorry for any confusion.

In reply to spenser:

According to the guy who does The Hard is Easy serious BD Pilot, Mammut Smart 2 etc are categorised as assisted tubers.

Before I got the GriGri I did look around for other devices and I posted a thread here asking about which GriGri to get and other other devices.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I think Gri Gris are compulsory at a lot of North American walls. This article provides an interesting comparison:

https://www.lacrux.com/en/klettern/climbing-hall-culture-switzerland-vs-can...

In reply to slawrence1001:

When sliding on top rope what would your other hand be doing?

I slide when I belay on top rope.

I always have two hands on the dead end except for when pulling rope through. My lower hand stays gripped whilst I slide my top hand up to the belay.

Lower hand then let's go to pull more rope through.

It's no different to hand over hand.

There is always one hand gripping the dead end.

The only reason to not have two hands on the dead end when stood belaying when sliding is when feeding out.

In reply to montyjohn:

The method you describe is perfectly acceptable, I am referring to people who slide without moving their top hand to back up on the dead end.