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If your interested check out this news link
http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/eveningmail/news/tm_objectid=14830133%2...
http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/eveningmail/news/tm_objectid=14830133%2...
In reply to loopylee:
I'm surprised. I could understand them closing earlier than necessary if it was over the summer, but not during the winter.
After all walls don't make money during the summer and rely on what they earned during the busy winter months to pay for wages, maintenance etc.
I'm surprised. I could understand them closing earlier than necessary if it was over the summer, but not during the winter.
After all walls don't make money during the summer and rely on what they earned during the busy winter months to pay for wages, maintenance etc.
In reply to Anonymous: They wouldnt have done it for no reason. Must be some incentive, probably financial, for them closing now.
In reply to Wingnut: can't see how mcgregor can claim the climbing facilities couldn't be transferred. it's not like they're built into a quarry or anything.
In reply to graeme jackson: I heard of a very good source, that they have sold one of the walls to a stoke company. could we be getting a wall there?
In reply to Paul at work: Not sure where you got the info about selling the wall on comes from, don't think its true. But the Stoke wall rumour is correct, Trentham Gardens to be precise.
In reply to graeme alderson:
Lucky Stoke. Still doesn't help us lot in Brum much, though. :
Lucky Stoke. Still doesn't help us lot in Brum much, though. :
In reply to Wingnut: Get along to the meeting in Fairbridge next week, there may be some news.
In reply to loopylee:
Looks like everyone is distancing themselves from the owners , i'd be amazed if you (climbers)get any money back from this little venture.
I'd strike quickly before there is no one to chase for your money.But could be wrong and my cycnical outlook proven wrong.
Looks like everyone is distancing themselves from the owners , i'd be amazed if you (climbers)get any money back from this little venture.
I'd strike quickly before there is no one to chase for your money.But could be wrong and my cycnical outlook proven wrong.
In reply to anonymous1:
It's not the money we're stressing about, that seems to be being sorted out reasonably efficiently - it's that it leaves us without a f*cking wall!
It's not the money we're stressing about, that seems to be being sorted out reasonably efficiently - it's that it leaves us without a f*cking wall!
In reply to graeme alderson:
Yes, will do, have been passing details for this to various climbers who I know aren't online.
Yes, will do, have been passing details for this to various climbers who I know aren't online.
In reply to Wingnut:
Join the club. I regularly have to make a 45 minute journey to my nearest wall, or nearly hour and half to the nearest crag (a tiny disused quarry in leicestershire).
> (In reply to anonymous1)
> It's not the money we're stressing about, that seems to be being sorted out reasonably efficiently - it's that it leaves us without a f*cking wall!
> It's not the money we're stressing about, that seems to be being sorted out reasonably efficiently - it's that it leaves us without a f*cking wall!
Join the club. I regularly have to make a 45 minute journey to my nearest wall, or nearly hour and half to the nearest crag (a tiny disused quarry in leicestershire).
In reply to Wingnut:
well at the prices that they charged i'm suprised you guys went there anyhow. Put together a business plan based upon your knowledge of the rock face place. Go to the local chamber of business ,find out where the most grants are ,tell them about the number of jobs you will create and then find a financial backer/bank and hay presto you have the makings of your own wall.
don't do the cooperative bit like leeds wall as your returns will be shite.
well at the prices that they charged i'm suprised you guys went there anyhow. Put together a business plan based upon your knowledge of the rock face place. Go to the local chamber of business ,find out where the most grants are ,tell them about the number of jobs you will create and then find a financial backer/bank and hay presto you have the makings of your own wall.
don't do the cooperative bit like leeds wall as your returns will be shite.
In reply to anonymous1:
>>at the prices that they charged i'm suprised you guys went there anyhow
The other walls in Birmingham being?
>>. Put together a business plan based upon your knowledge of the rock face place. Go to the local chamber of business ,find out where the most grants are ,tell them about the number of jobs you will create and then find a financial backer/bank and hay presto you have the makings of your own wall.
Already being tried - see "Creation Climbing". Still at the "fighting red tape" stage and has been for quite some time!
>>at the prices that they charged i'm suprised you guys went there anyhow
The other walls in Birmingham being?
>>. Put together a business plan based upon your knowledge of the rock face place. Go to the local chamber of business ,find out where the most grants are ,tell them about the number of jobs you will create and then find a financial backer/bank and hay presto you have the makings of your own wall.
Already being tried - see "Creation Climbing". Still at the "fighting red tape" stage and has been for quite some time!
In reply to graeme alderson:
trentham gardens, handily in town . . .
ah that bring back memories of my finals and raving my tits off about 14 years ago . ..
trentham gardens, handily in town . . .
ah that bring back memories of my finals and raving my tits off about 14 years ago . ..
In reply to Eskdale massive: Only pasing on the info.
Don't shoot the messenger (unless he is called Alex)
Don't shoot the messenger (unless he is called Alex)
In reply to loopylee: Things could be much, much worse. This could have happened to the Castle.
In reply to Wingnut:
at least you have/had a wall,we don't have 1 decent leading wall in manchester.!!!!!!
we are surrounded by walls but yet we don't have one. And whilst i am at it Nevisport in Altrincham is absolutly c*rap for climbing gear. rant rant rant
at least you have/had a wall,we don't have 1 decent leading wall in manchester.!!!!!!
we are surrounded by walls but yet we don't have one. And whilst i am at it Nevisport in Altrincham is absolutly c*rap for climbing gear. rant rant rant
In reply to anonymous1:
it is perfectly obvious that mr anonymous1 has nothing more than a naive and fancifull appreciation of the nature of the costs associated with building and managing a climbing centre.
can't say i have any particular throughts or views on the rockface or its former owners, but assuming they do right by season ticket holders and former employees etc... they have probably made a sound commercial decision in their best interest and i don't blame them for it. after all we all try to do just that when we manage our own personal finances.
If anonymous1 is to be believed - why isn't there a climbing wall on every street corner? Answer- because its not that easy and clearly not that profitable. Simple market rules apply here. The climbing market is not that big. I recall reading some ancient BMC indoor climbing wall strategy about 8-9 years ago that was just as naive and stupid in its implicity and insitant that there would be grants available to all who chose to go down that route. Mind you that was back in Roger whathisname time when the BMC lost money every year....... you get the point.
it is perfectly obvious that mr anonymous1 has nothing more than a naive and fancifull appreciation of the nature of the costs associated with building and managing a climbing centre.
can't say i have any particular throughts or views on the rockface or its former owners, but assuming they do right by season ticket holders and former employees etc... they have probably made a sound commercial decision in their best interest and i don't blame them for it. after all we all try to do just that when we manage our own personal finances.
If anonymous1 is to be believed - why isn't there a climbing wall on every street corner? Answer- because its not that easy and clearly not that profitable. Simple market rules apply here. The climbing market is not that big. I recall reading some ancient BMC indoor climbing wall strategy about 8-9 years ago that was just as naive and stupid in its implicity and insitant that there would be grants available to all who chose to go down that route. Mind you that was back in Roger whathisname time when the BMC lost money every year....... you get the point.
In reply to the badger: Could you point me at the figures that prove BMC lost money every year that Roger was the Chief Officer. No you can't can you because you are wrong. BMC posted a deficit for 2001 and 2002. For many years prior to that we built up decent reserves, we bought our office building (no mortgage and worth a few quid), doubled the membership.
Technically speaking the deficit posted for 2002 was after Roger had left the BMC although I grant you that many decisions taken before 31st Dec 2001 affected the deficit.
The BMC's raison d'etre is not to make money. You can easily argue that the deficits were not losses, just spending the money that we had in the bank on various projects.
Technically speaking the deficit posted for 2002 was after Roger had left the BMC although I grant you that many decisions taken before 31st Dec 2001 affected the deficit.
The BMC's raison d'etre is not to make money. You can easily argue that the deficits were not losses, just spending the money that we had in the bank on various projects.
>I am 8 Years old and have been climbing at the rockface for 2 years, I was a gold senior, and am very fed up I cant climb or even have chance to see my instructors anymore!
Can anybody help, where can I climb and where are the staff?
Can anybody help, where can I climb and where are the staff?
In reply to Ben h:
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/indoor/walls/wall_res.asp?area_drop=M&search_te...
There is no wall in Birmingham comparable with the facilities that were at the Rockface. But have a look at the above link.
Regards
Charles Gameson
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/indoor/walls/wall_res.asp?area_drop=M&search_te...
There is no wall in Birmingham comparable with the facilities that were at the Rockface. But have a look at the above link.
Regards
Charles Gameson
In reply to graeme alderson:
You may well be right about the reported losses/deficits etc.... the point i was trying to make (possibly clumsily - although you have made it far more succintly anyway) was that at that time (6-7-8 years ago), the BMC were publishing a number of strategies that did advocate climbing walls in every town (sometimes 2 or 3) springing up all over the place. No doubt that was the wish of the BMC members who put together those documents - but they were published under the BMC's name which was led by an executive that i expected at the time to provide more common sense and informed debate. Such strategies were ridiculous and completely unworkable - i said so at the time, but the response i received then was precisely that of anonymous1. I do not believe the BMC were interested in indoor walls in the slightest, or displayed any appreciation for their impact on the climbing world.
To be fair i have no idea what you or the BMC's policy is now, (i'm afraid i was one of those who subsequently became disillusioned with the BMC - though i do appreciate the moves that are being made now), but you reap what you sow and those policy's and statements were precisely the reason that beliefs such as those apparantly held by anonymous1 that there were & are grants lying around for anyone wishing to start a climbing wall. They aren't.
If it made commercial sense for the owners to shut it - good luck to them. They have no obligation to the climbing public to provide a facility when an alternative commercial arrangement is preferred by them. They are not an organisation that deals in 'deficits' - they presumably have to pay attention to losses' (and i am very aware of the disctinction between the two terms). Just because you have set a budget and spend that money - does not mean you have spent it wisely. Blimey i can almost hear myself saying that to Roger-thingy all those years ago!!!!!
You may well be right about the reported losses/deficits etc.... the point i was trying to make (possibly clumsily - although you have made it far more succintly anyway) was that at that time (6-7-8 years ago), the BMC were publishing a number of strategies that did advocate climbing walls in every town (sometimes 2 or 3) springing up all over the place. No doubt that was the wish of the BMC members who put together those documents - but they were published under the BMC's name which was led by an executive that i expected at the time to provide more common sense and informed debate. Such strategies were ridiculous and completely unworkable - i said so at the time, but the response i received then was precisely that of anonymous1. I do not believe the BMC were interested in indoor walls in the slightest, or displayed any appreciation for their impact on the climbing world.
To be fair i have no idea what you or the BMC's policy is now, (i'm afraid i was one of those who subsequently became disillusioned with the BMC - though i do appreciate the moves that are being made now), but you reap what you sow and those policy's and statements were precisely the reason that beliefs such as those apparantly held by anonymous1 that there were & are grants lying around for anyone wishing to start a climbing wall. They aren't.
If it made commercial sense for the owners to shut it - good luck to them. They have no obligation to the climbing public to provide a facility when an alternative commercial arrangement is preferred by them. They are not an organisation that deals in 'deficits' - they presumably have to pay attention to losses' (and i am very aware of the disctinction between the two terms). Just because you have set a budget and spend that money - does not mean you have spent it wisely. Blimey i can almost hear myself saying that to Roger-thingy all those years ago!!!!!
In reply to the badger:
Fair point of view, however if we all took your stance no one would ever start up a new business and we would all be working as employees instead as employers .
Most people , who haven't been in business,fail to start new business's due to a number of factors, one of them being the daunting prospect of having to put all your assets into a new venture , with the prospect of losing everything if it all goes wrong. That is a one reason why tehre aren't more walls around
To say that the BMC were naive and stupid is unfair.At least they attempt to do something positive for the climbing community as a whole,whilst having limited resources.
Oh, and by the way i/we do have an in depth understanding of the costs re: climbing walls,i/we spread sheet with a full profit and cost anaylis for the building and running of a climbing wall.zip
Fair point of view, however if we all took your stance no one would ever start up a new business and we would all be working as employees instead as employers .
Most people , who haven't been in business,fail to start new business's due to a number of factors, one of them being the daunting prospect of having to put all your assets into a new venture , with the prospect of losing everything if it all goes wrong. That is a one reason why tehre aren't more walls around
To say that the BMC were naive and stupid is unfair.At least they attempt to do something positive for the climbing community as a whole,whilst having limited resources.
Oh, and by the way i/we do have an in depth understanding of the costs re: climbing walls,i/we spread sheet with a full profit and cost anaylis for the building and running of a climbing wall.zip
In reply to anonymous1:
Firstly, i have not suggested no-one should start up a business. The logic in your suggestion that we would 'all' be working as employees is in itself a contradiction, (an employee of whom/what? employers maybe).
I do agree with you however, that one of the reasons that people do not set up businesses is that after they have done their sums, either; a) the risk appears to great, or b) the bank thinks the risk is too great. This is why we are all not employers!
Either way it is because the figures with which to calculate those sums have been poorly considered. People will try to mitigate this by looking for 'grants' but 99% of the problems with spread sheets & costings on paper is that the biggest problems are hidden in the day-to-day management of any business when it is up and running, whether its a climbing wall or selling paper clips. They cannot be papered over with grants at the outset. Grants are not a panacea to business success. Many many UK and EU grants have been given to poorly considered ventures that have all started off with a business plan, cost analysis and spread sheets.
It is for these reasons that there are not more climbing walls - oh and the minor point that the climbing wall market in the UK is not that large anyway.
Finally, I stand by what i said concerning the The BMC and their indoor climbing wall strategy 6-7-8 years ago. It was poorly considered and poorly informed both their members and others. It might be a better document now - i don't know. Aside from this comment, I AM NOT having a go at the BMC. In fact i think i said that i broadly supported what they are trying to do these days and in Mark Vallance, i believe we are hearing a sensible pragmatic approach - i hope he succeeds.
As for your own abilities/experience/knowledge of climbing walls i wouldn't know and i wish you well. I may even be your customer in the future - but i will also say that in suggesting that all you have to do is 'write a business plan, check with your local chamber for local grants and convince a bank to lend you cash' is an over-simplication in the extreme. It is also a view of the world that is a product of the BMCs approach to the proliferation of climbing walls 6-7-8 years ago....the point i was trying to make.
Firstly, i have not suggested no-one should start up a business. The logic in your suggestion that we would 'all' be working as employees is in itself a contradiction, (an employee of whom/what? employers maybe).
I do agree with you however, that one of the reasons that people do not set up businesses is that after they have done their sums, either; a) the risk appears to great, or b) the bank thinks the risk is too great. This is why we are all not employers!
Either way it is because the figures with which to calculate those sums have been poorly considered. People will try to mitigate this by looking for 'grants' but 99% of the problems with spread sheets & costings on paper is that the biggest problems are hidden in the day-to-day management of any business when it is up and running, whether its a climbing wall or selling paper clips. They cannot be papered over with grants at the outset. Grants are not a panacea to business success. Many many UK and EU grants have been given to poorly considered ventures that have all started off with a business plan, cost analysis and spread sheets.
It is for these reasons that there are not more climbing walls - oh and the minor point that the climbing wall market in the UK is not that large anyway.
Finally, I stand by what i said concerning the The BMC and their indoor climbing wall strategy 6-7-8 years ago. It was poorly considered and poorly informed both their members and others. It might be a better document now - i don't know. Aside from this comment, I AM NOT having a go at the BMC. In fact i think i said that i broadly supported what they are trying to do these days and in Mark Vallance, i believe we are hearing a sensible pragmatic approach - i hope he succeeds.
As for your own abilities/experience/knowledge of climbing walls i wouldn't know and i wish you well. I may even be your customer in the future - but i will also say that in suggesting that all you have to do is 'write a business plan, check with your local chamber for local grants and convince a bank to lend you cash' is an over-simplication in the extreme. It is also a view of the world that is a product of the BMCs approach to the proliferation of climbing walls 6-7-8 years ago....the point i was trying to make.
In reply to the badger:
as don willans once said ,if you can't get a plan on the back of a fag packet it's too complicated and doomed to failure.
I'm off home now read on monday.
Good climbing.
as don willans once said ,if you can't get a plan on the back of a fag packet it's too complicated and doomed to failure.
I'm off home now read on monday.
Good climbing.
In reply to loopylee:
I took a trip through to the Rock Face on Friday with the idea of looking in bins for any holds that had been left! I found the owner there, I can't remember his name, let's call him Judas, and I went for the jugular. I was not impressed with his arguments, especially when he claimed that it had been closed for 'Health and Saftey' reasons. I asked him to expand on this, bringing to his attention that I used to carry out health and saftey tours while working at Zeneca. Apparently, he felt that the staff would not be fully focused on their job with the closure iminent.
I originally come from Glasgow and we have a saying " don't piss down my neck and tell me it's rainning!". He insults his ex staff with that assesment of them.
I believe if we were made aware of the situation, enough pressure could have been brought to bare to prevent this closure... if the management wanted to keep it open, that is.
Cheers, paul
I took a trip through to the Rock Face on Friday with the idea of looking in bins for any holds that had been left! I found the owner there, I can't remember his name, let's call him Judas, and I went for the jugular. I was not impressed with his arguments, especially when he claimed that it had been closed for 'Health and Saftey' reasons. I asked him to expand on this, bringing to his attention that I used to carry out health and saftey tours while working at Zeneca. Apparently, he felt that the staff would not be fully focused on their job with the closure iminent.
I originally come from Glasgow and we have a saying " don't piss down my neck and tell me it's rainning!". He insults his ex staff with that assesment of them.
I believe if we were made aware of the situation, enough pressure could have been brought to bare to prevent this closure... if the management wanted to keep it open, that is.
Cheers, paul
Hi the agenda for the BMC Midlands Area Open Meeting to discuss the closure of The Rockface and the future of indoor climbing in Brum is on the BMC Forum
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=106653
Regards
Charles Gameson
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=106653
Regards
Charles Gameson
Between a rock and a hard place Nov 9 2004
By James Cartledge, Evening Mail
Art student Nicola Church today emerged as the latest victim of the sudden closure of Birmingham's popular indoor climbing centre.
The 20-year-old had 11 abstract pieces worth at least £700 on show at the Rockface site when it shut last month.
Now Nicola has been reduced to banging on the disused centre's front door in a vain bid to discover when she will get her work back.
She said: "I was stunned when I heard the Rockface had closed down.
"I have tried ringing but the line just goes to a recorded message and now I have no idea what's happening.
"I want my work back because I'm attached to it and it was due back at the end of this month. I went to the centre over the weekend but nobody was there."
Nicola, from Redditch, heard the centre had closed down when her family read the news in the Evening Mail.
The Loughborough University fine art student's work had been on display since September. The arrangement happened when she approached Rockface staff after seeing art on show there.
The site, in AB Row, near millennium Point, closed suddenly on October 31. It was being bought by development agency Advantage West Midlands as part of the huge Eastside scheme.
But the deal was not due to go through until March and the city council - which is behind the Eastside scheme - said it could have stayed open for the "foreseeable future".
Climbers' groups are furious about the closure of the site, which has been described as the best in Europe and also catered for school and child-rens' parties.
A meeting to discuss the situation has been arranged for 7pm on Thursday at the Fairbridge youth organisation in Cheapside, Digbeth.
No one from the Rockface management team has been available to discuss the issue since the closure
By James Cartledge, Evening Mail
Art student Nicola Church today emerged as the latest victim of the sudden closure of Birmingham's popular indoor climbing centre.
The 20-year-old had 11 abstract pieces worth at least £700 on show at the Rockface site when it shut last month.
Now Nicola has been reduced to banging on the disused centre's front door in a vain bid to discover when she will get her work back.
She said: "I was stunned when I heard the Rockface had closed down.
"I have tried ringing but the line just goes to a recorded message and now I have no idea what's happening.
"I want my work back because I'm attached to it and it was due back at the end of this month. I went to the centre over the weekend but nobody was there."
Nicola, from Redditch, heard the centre had closed down when her family read the news in the Evening Mail.
The Loughborough University fine art student's work had been on display since September. The arrangement happened when she approached Rockface staff after seeing art on show there.
The site, in AB Row, near millennium Point, closed suddenly on October 31. It was being bought by development agency Advantage West Midlands as part of the huge Eastside scheme.
But the deal was not due to go through until March and the city council - which is behind the Eastside scheme - said it could have stayed open for the "foreseeable future".
Climbers' groups are furious about the closure of the site, which has been described as the best in Europe and also catered for school and child-rens' parties.
A meeting to discuss the situation has been arranged for 7pm on Thursday at the Fairbridge youth organisation in Cheapside, Digbeth.
No one from the Rockface management team has been available to discuss the issue since the closure
Tears at Rockface axe Nov 8 2004
TWO devastated sisters who burst into tears after learning the landmark indoor climbing centre they loved had closed without warning are pleading for it to be saved.
Heartbroken nine-year-old Hannah Pritchard and Tess, aged eight, cried floods of tears after hearing Rockface at Millennium Point was to be flattened.
The Boldmere Junior School pupils, who visited Rockface twice a month, are so upset that they penned an emotional letter to the Evening Mail pleading for it to be saved.
Mystery surrounds the sudden closure of the centre, at AB Row, described as the best in Europe, earlier this month.
Advantage West Midlands is acquiring the land to be cleared by Birmingham City Council for the huge billion-pound Eastside development. But the deal was not due to be completed until March.
Tess and Hannah's mum, 40-year-old housewife Jennifer, of Western Road, Sutton Coldfield, whose 45-year-old husband Steve is a management consultant, said: "The girls are absolutely distraught."
TWO devastated sisters who burst into tears after learning the landmark indoor climbing centre they loved had closed without warning are pleading for it to be saved.
Heartbroken nine-year-old Hannah Pritchard and Tess, aged eight, cried floods of tears after hearing Rockface at Millennium Point was to be flattened.
The Boldmere Junior School pupils, who visited Rockface twice a month, are so upset that they penned an emotional letter to the Evening Mail pleading for it to be saved.
Mystery surrounds the sudden closure of the centre, at AB Row, described as the best in Europe, earlier this month.
Advantage West Midlands is acquiring the land to be cleared by Birmingham City Council for the huge billion-pound Eastside development. But the deal was not due to be completed until March.
Tess and Hannah's mum, 40-year-old housewife Jennifer, of Western Road, Sutton Coldfield, whose 45-year-old husband Steve is a management consultant, said: "The girls are absolutely distraught."
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