UKC

Not really news but the latest report from the RSPB is pretty depressing, e.g.
"Some areas of the UK's countryside including parts of the Peak District, Yorkshire Dales and Northumberland have become "no-fly zones" for birds of prey"

http://www.rspb.org.uk/news/359085-sixty-years-of-protection-but-the-killin...

Covered by the Guardian at
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/dec/13/illegal-bird-deaths-rspb

Is stronger legislation the answer or is another approach needed?

In reply to Doug:

Its the bloody grouse and Pheasant Shooting Estates.

They should be Shut down.

This govt has even been Granting Licences to their pals to Kill raptors and rare gulls on their shooting Estates.

In reply to Doug:


Using existing legislation would be a start. Although its always going to be difficult to prove in some cases they dont seem to even start trying.

http://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/

Is a good, although extremely depressing, occasional read.

In reply to dissonance:

As you say, depressing.

And apologies for the badly written thread title - should have been '60 years of protection...' - originally I had written sixty years but that gave a title that was too long (why ?) & in editing I lost the years. But it seems we can only edit posts for a limited period of time & I realised too late.

In reply to Doug:

As I see it, it's something of a perfect storm. The areas of concern are huge , which would make it very expensive to police effectively. It's next to impossible to get the community to help, because the people who would be expected to police wrongdoing.....are the tenants and keepers, and the penalties are laughable.

So you're unlikely to be caught, and if you are, it isn't the landowners and estate managers who are prosecuted. The same people who can spot a rambler 3' off the right of way seem to have a terrible blindness when it comes to spotting the poisoned bait.

I haven't a bloody clue what the answer is, but the current approach isn't working, that's for sure. It's a poor day when the only place a harrier is safe (ish) is when United Utilities are the landlord

In reply to Doug:

Are many Raptors an endangered species, in the UK?

In reply to sjc:

Some are, see
http://www.bto.org/sites/default/files/u37/downloads/recording/bocc3.pdf

In reply to toad:



This isn't the case in Scotland. The Wildlife and Natural Environment (Scotland) Act 2011 introduced the offence of vicarious liability in relation to the persecution of wild birds, so landowners and estate managers can be prosecuted for the actions of their staff. Of course, there's a difference between what's happening in law and what's happening on the ground, but it's a start.

In reply to tony:

Would something like banning shooting within a certain radius of poisoned raptors for say 3 years be way forward as a deterent? I know there are problems with dead birds being dumped elsewhere but overall if the punishment were loss of shooting rights, wouldn't that reduce the willingness to kill raptors rather more than fines or jail for minions?

In reply to MG:

Banning shooting would certainly focus the minds of the estate managers, given the importance of shooting to the finances of some estates. Do estates need to be licensed for shooting I wonder? Withdrawal of the license would be an interesting threat.

In reply to tony:

Good point. I forget Scotland is slightly more progressive in this

Of course, there's a difference between what's happening in law and what's happening on the ground, but it's a start.

And there's the rub. Wildlife protection is so under resourced that I suspect prosecution would still be fairly exceptional in England and Wales

In reply to Doug:

The Hen Harrier on the Red List, possibly I missed some, and then the usual suspects on the Amber List Golden Eagle, Osprey, Hen Harrier.
I note that some of the anger is directed against Grouse shooting estates but in the overall scheme are Grouse Estates positive or negative in terms of Bio Diversity and whilst the Raptors are Poster boys, like Polar Bears are for the Climate change lobby, is the loss of the Hen Harrier, sad though it is, a price worth paying for the Bio Diversity the estates produce with their activities. Just wondering not saying Yay or Nay.

In reply to sjc:

>Grouse Estates positive or negative in terms of Bio Diversity

Negative, I should have thought, like most monocultures.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I thought that the promoting of the growth of heather was a good thing they did. Also conversely if there were no grouse would the Harriers starve?

In reply to sjc:

>Also conversely if there were no grouse would the Harriers starve?

The harriers have survived for many centuries with only a natural level of grouse. I think they'd manage. What they find harder to cope with is being shot and poisoned and having their nests destroyed by the vermin who own and run these estates.

What is needed, but what the present government is not obviously going to enact in a million years, is a licensing system as suggested by one poster above, with a suspension unless the estate can actually prove it has breeding hen harriers.

jcm

In reply to Doug:

I read that 4/5ths of the uplands in England and Wales are NOT grouse shooting estates. RSPB have an annual income of about £30 million and have failed to protect the Hen Harrier. Surely the RSPB own some uplands in England where Harriers should breed?
Are they passing the full blame onto grouse shooting estates to cover their own incompetence in protecting these birds, perhaps there is more to the problem than they care to admit and publicise?

In reply to Doug:
The Hen Harrier is a typical case. We have most of the heather moorland in europe which in this country is prime Hen Harrier habitat. Yet this last year NO hen harrier bred in England. And one of the handful of birds that was reared last year was found shot dead on or close to a shooting moor in The Yorkshire Dales.

The RSPB cannot police every moor. I'm on the moors in NY almost every week. I can walk all day most days in the week and not see another human on uplands. Gamekeepers are not stupid. Any doubt that they might be observed there are many ways of Hen Harrier removal. Driving 'accidentally' over the nest is one way. So is parking up on a cold spring morning close to a nest with eggs and staying long enough for the eggs to get cold. "I was having my tea officer - I didn't notice a nest here?". 'Keepers are out at night legitimately shooting foxes - a time when they are almost certainly unobservable. You try keeping up with a 4X4 at night over moorland you have no right to be on, in a vehicle, and I think they';ll probably notice.

I'm a voluntary ranger and do bird surveys for the Hawk & Owl Trust. They manage an ex grouse moor (Fylingdales) which hasn't been shot over for well over 30 years. I've seen a few 'Harriers about but none have stayed to breed. And even then there's no chance of stopping a harrier from wandering onto ground that is heavily keepered. They need large territories and each year the cost of moorland and the profits from shooting over them are going up.

The RSPB currently employ a 'Sky Dancer officer' (named after the so called mating dance the harrier does)whose current objective is education and i've been to one of her presentations and she certainly knows her stuff and what she's up against. Its largely education which allowed the Sea Eagle to return and which prevents many other birds of prey on other estates exist. Game keepers get better educated!!

I've also been to a presentation by a 'game keeping' instructor at a local agri college and he tells gamekeepers to stick to the law and points out the cost/balance of racing after one bird just to save a few grouse/pheasants/ etc./, etc.,

Game keepers on the face of it know they are heavily criticised by the public and will expell any member whose caught committing illegal acts. I also knew a gamekeeper I'd been friends with for years tell me most indignantly he wouldn't dream of shooting Hen Harriers (I believe him) and I currently am aware of a game keeper who is well aware that there's a Goshawk currently nesting in a wood in the middle of some moorland he's the keeper for. He seems to be quite happy to allow it to stay and it almost certainly takes the odd grouse and probably the odd chick too in season.

Perhaps licensing shooting estates is one answer. I certainly can't think of any other!

In reply to Dave Perry:

A very balanced reply. Gamekeepers are a very mixed breed, old and new school, educated and uneducated, good and bad. And the same goes for the bosses who hold their livelihoods in the palm of their hands. I,ve met plenty of both.t

I think managed grouse moors are just one of the problems facing hen harriers.