UKC

I got a couple of books from a relative who is very into local and independent shopping. Suffice to say that the books he got me we're OK but would have preferred some others. The indy book shop were only too happy to offer me a swap or credit note which was fine.

Placed an order for 1 of the books I wanted. Price charged was the price printed on the back which was £30 (only available in hardback at the moment). Having wanted this book for a while I'd already checked it out on Amazon, price there was £15.44.

Have to say I don't quite feel ripped off but "disappointed" at the huge price difference. Did ask if there was any discount on the price and was told "No"

To be perfectly honest I simply couldn't justify shopping at this Indy book shop but being honest I do love browsing and having independent shops.

Is Amazon the villain here?

In reply to Antigua:

Half the problem is they already had the cash and were in the losition of power. If you went in there with £20 in your pocket they may have sold it to you at a reduced price.

In reply to Antigua:

Of course Amazon is the baddie here. If you love browsing independent shops then you have no choice but to support them, or they'll just disappear. Of course if you want something for nothing, then shop at Amazon. Then imagine how much the author gets...!

In reply to jon:

Without knowing what the relationship is between the publisher of physical books and Amazon then its hard to judge/condemn them. I can buy 2 books at Amazon for only 1 at the indy. Surely the publisher would prefer to sell 2 books rather than 1?

Yes I like Indies BUT I think that a lot of people are going to have issues with a 50% tax on local shopping.

In reply to jon:


In most cases the author will get roughly the same amount no matter where it is sold. The author has a deal with the publishers, the publishers have a deal with the distributors and it is the distributors which deal with Amazon. I don't know of many relationships where a publisher will pay an author less if the book is sold on Amazon. It certainly doesn't happen in outdoor titles/guidebooks. In my experience the low prices are simply Amazon cutting its share to get the business, they are not Amazon squeezing the little guy. This may not be true for all areas of the book trade though.

However, you should still support the small book shops, and buy your guidebooks from outdoor retailers when you can, just to make sure that the former remain in existence, and the latter continue to stock guidebooks.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Well that's nice to know for the author, Alan, but of course someone has to lose out - climbing shops and little book shops in this case, as you say.

I agree with Antigua's sentiments when he says:


But I have to say that I wholeheartedly agree with the shop when they refused to give a discount. Why should they?

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:



I wonder how much the original book is being sold to the retailer by the distributor/publisher.

I ask because in that £15.44 Amazon also need to factor in the cost of delivery. Even with a tiny profit margin I can't help but think that the Indy is on an astonishing profit margin compared to most in retail.

In reply to jon:


Actually, directly from this one sale the only business that actually financially loses out is Amazon but cutting its margin. Obviously though this doesn't tell the full story. Amazon can afford to cuts its margin to virtually nil (sometimes less than nil) because of its economies of scale and efficient distribution which the smaller resellers can't, however they could probably afford to chop their margin a bit - the 50% in this case does seem to be a very big difference.


To secure a sale maybe?

Alan

In reply to Antigua:


Yes, the 50% does seem very big. 25% to 35% is more normal (when Amazon have cut their margin to nil (as they sometimes do). Even at 25% to 35% a physical shop still has a lot of costs to factor in which makes it a close run thing as to whether the sale actually generates a profit.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

How can they cut their margin to nil or less? What do they gain from that?

In reply to jon:


To be particularly brutal... I'd say to stay in business! as a bricks and mortar store I wouldn't expect them to match Amazon but I simply can't see myself or many people I know paying a 50% premium.

Also don't forget the book wasn't in stock in the shop. The retailer didn't know when it would be as the warehouse was shut but would have required a 100% non-refundable deposit and a potential wait of 2-3 weeks. Contrast that with Amazon who had it in stock and would guarantee delivery by tomorrow lunchtime...... its a very compelling offer to the consumer especially at 50% off.

When it comes to climbing and outdoor gear I see value in being able to talk to a qualified and experienced sales person and hence I will pay a premium for that but there is a limit to that premium.

In reply to jon:


Customer gratefulness and loyalty?

I get the impression standard paperbacks are not signioficantly cheaper on Amazon than at waterstones, but of course the advantage of Amazon is that there isn't the inconvenience of leaving the house and visiting a shop (though I do like shops when I have the time!)

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

>

Looking at similar books your right 50% isn't the norm but its far from uncommon. Most of the best sellers are 50% though as they are in supermarkets.

I suppose the real question I'm asking in all this is why aren't the indies at least trying to compete?

In reply to Antigua:


I've never heard of Indy. However, maybe they are trying to compete? If they're not, then you have a point.

In reply to jon:


Sorry "Indy" as in Independent (book shop)

In reply to Antigua:

Slightly off topic but still on theme, I bought a couple of bikes for the kids this Christmas from my local bike shop which I could have got cheaper from MEC. I bought them the same bike and the same colour as I didn't like the other colours. My youngest decided she wanted a different colour so today I went and swapped it. Couldn't have done that so easily with mail order.

I'll admit that I have the luxury of income that allows me to choose but there is value in service, even in a book store.

In reply to Antigua:

The below web articles are just a few which I read with great sadness this year. Sadness for the independent businesses, sadness for all the unemployment in this country but mostly sadness and disappointment at myself that I had given my money to Amazon in the past.

http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/boycotts/boycottamazon.aspx
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25034598
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/dec/01/week-amazon-insider-featu...

In reply to Antigua:

Interestingly, we got into a conversation with the owner of our local bookshop - he said that if we wanted a particular book, talk to him and he would try to match Amazon.

In reply to Antigua:


No, Amazon is the hero. It's selling the book you want for half as much money and paying the author the same.

If you buy from a real world shop a big chunk of the money will end up going to government in rates and taxes and in rent to the company that owns the building, none of whom had anything to do with creating the book or delivering it to you.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I realise that taxes, for the most part, don't go towards making the country a better place. It would be great if they did, but the reason that Amazon can undercut everyone is, in part because of a highly successful tax avoidance strategy. Personally I'd rather pay the extra and keep a local business, in business.

In reply to Antigua:

To put forward an alternative view, speaking as an author, I absolutely love Amazon. They have treated me extremely well and enable me to have far higher profit margins than I would otherwise be forced to accept.

Yes they are putting huge pressure on the independent bookshops, but that's just the nature of business.

In reply to Antigua:

>



This is exactly what it is and totally avoidable by shopping at Amazon.
Amazon pay very little in taxes in the UK and though they do have distribution centres they are relatively paying very little business rates which your high street shop pays.
Should you care if there are no high street shops and it all goes to Amazon, who am I to tell you, but the taxes the High Street shop pays/collects, Business rates, VAT, corporation tax, PAYE, Income tax go back into your local and national economy to pay for, well all public services whereas Amazon do not, also the bookseller will spend their wages locally whereas Amazon will not.
Ultimately will you lose out by buying from Amazon?

In reply to sjc:

There is also the issue of substantial Government subsidies going to Amazon to "create jobs" as the press releases and politicians call it. For Amazon it's a way to create money.
And of course the other way they keep prices down is by poor wages, harsh treatment of staff and dubious labour practices.
I would never buy anything through them.
But I then think what would happen if any of my writings were ever published as a book - and if the money was coming through Amazon it would be tough to turn it down...

In reply to sjc:


Why is it a good thing for government to collect taxes in such an indirect and non-transparent way? Why not just put up income tax and council tax rather than hide taxes in the price of books/ petrol/ consumer electronics/ alcohol?

In reply to gdnknf:


Yes, they do make thought provoking reading.

Having said that, when I use Amazon it is usually for the amazing service they offer (mainly not having to visit an actual shop!) rather vthan the price. I would quite happily pay a premium for this service (perhaps a realistic shipping charge), just as I happily pay a premium to an actual shop when it offers a service I actually want such as boot fitting or sometimes browsing real books.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


Because we live in a Democracy and 100% of people believe in fair taxes so long as someone else is paying that tax and a political party that taxed in a transparent way would not get elected.