UKC

Now the EU thing is coming to an end, another story that has been in the news is the murder of a little girl that didn't want to go back to living with her parents, who started wetting herself when she was forced to. No one listened to her, even though she was old enough to have her say. She could have stayed with her loving Grandparents.

Another case a few months ago, a younger little girl returned to mum and stepdad that were no more able to look after themselves than a child, and should not have been trusted with a goldfish.

For years it has been considered good practice to listen to the child, to put the needs of the child first, to not get distracted by the needs of the parents, and yet it still happens.

Why do we go for optimism over risk assessment?

http://www.careappointments.co.uk/practice-reports/item/39896-report-sutton...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/21/ben-butler-violent-posed-do...

http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/ayeeshia-smith-derbyshire-social-workers-mi...

In reply to marsbar:

These are terrible situations and there will never be a completely correct 'one size fits all' solution.

It's possibly worth balancing those two terrible tragedies against the probability that we don't hear of the children that *have* been returned to parents, whose lifestyles may not be particularly organised or conventional, but have still had better life chances and a better life than if they had been placed in care. These are judgement calls, and so by definition sometimes social workers will be wrong.

And bad people can be awfully plausible and convincing.

Edit: I've just read that Guardian link. That particular case does seem bizarre. Shows the power that Clifford used to wield, and how naive even High Court judges can be.

In reply to marsbar:

I am no expert, but in the Tragic Ellie Butler case it seems as if the council and the social workers behaved in an exemplary fashion and should be praised for their endless efforts to protect a 6-year old girl from a vile father and convicted criminal.

Sadly they were overruled by the judiciary (Justice Hogg) who appears to have been wholly swayed by a cunning media campaign rather than the facts on the table in front of her.

I think she will face an inquiry.

She should do

In reply to Babika:

She retired before the murder trial..... it does make you wonder if the two are linked...... Social services were on the ball on this one, and were then let down by the judiciary.

Desperate for the grandfather and aunt, he came across as very capable in the interview I heard on R4.Spent £70 k of his savings in court trying to do the right thing.

In reply to marsbar:

With socials services so tightly stretched its a wonder any effective safeguarding occurs. The bar for intervention is now set so high that those who would, in the past, result in close scrutiny are now pretty much left to it. The cycle of abuse and neglect goes on. Some of the parents I have to work with haven't a clue. I wouldn't let them look after a broken bike never mind a totally dependent infant.

In reply to Removed UserDeleted bagger:

I've been in a safeguarding meeting this morning to seek directions....we talked about the judgement in this case but we could all recount similar cases that just haven't had such catastrophic consequences....

In reply to abr1966:

I used to be involved in safeguarding. I can tell you of cases where nothing bad happened due to luck not judgement. Every training I had said listen to the child, but no one listened to Ellie. She wasn't allowed to speak to the court, she said she didn't want to go back to live there, she started wetting herself, and still the private social workers continued to move her back to a violent man with previous convictions and a mother who frequently couldn't be bothered to visit the contact centre when the child was living with grandparents. I don't know what they were thinking.

In reply to Removed UserDeleted bagger:

Certainly the case with Ayeeshia.
>I wouldn't let them look after a broken bike never mind a totally dependent infant.

In reply to marsbar: I don't think you can blame the social workers in the case of Ellie as thanks to a media campaign and a shocking decision by the judge their hand was forced. Dismal, but we should allocate blame fairly

In reply to wbo:

Precisely. The social workers were overruled in the Ellie Butler case so please don't anybody make wild generalisations about their inadequacies. They worked hard to see her kept away from her killer

In reply to wbo:

I don't especially blame the social workers and particularly in that case, however the private social workers could have done things differently. The judge in that case has avoided repercussions by retiring. She appears to have fallen for the "charming" father and gone way beyond the norm.

In reply to Babika:

I don't blame social services at all in that case. The private social workers have ignored that the child wasn't happy with parents. They assumed it was normal for her not to want to go there, and seem to have been working to the remit of returning her regardless. That is down to the judge.

In reply to marsbar:

The only thing that gives me a smidgen of comfort is that the revolting, manipulative killer is going to spend a very long time looking nervously over his shoulder every time his cell door is opened. I hope it gives him sleepless nights.

In reply to Babika:


Three meals a day, never cold, never have to work, never have to worry if you can pay the bills.



I can think of a better option for him................

In reply to arch:


Without this sounding like I feel sympathetic towards him ( I don't feel anything ), he'll have no sense of autonomy, no freedom, and no choices about his life either, I heard on the radio that there's quite high rates of self harm among prisoners who can't see a time when they're going to get out.

I'd possibly rather be homeless than in prison.

Probably a topic for another thread, but I do think that.

In reply to wbo:

What media campaign? I've obviously missed it, but don't remember any stories on poor Ellie and the state keeping her from her parents

In reply to balmybaldwin:
If it was Max Clifford who was involved you might not have read the relevant news papers?

In reply to arch:


Daily food spending on a prisoner where I worked was £2.02. 1 "meal" and two very small snacks is more accurate. Victorian prisons (there are many) are frequently too hot or too cold. And if you want to earn the weekly allowance (I think it's about £5 or something) you have to work.
Violence, self harm and mental illness is rife in today's prisons

Try reading any recent IMB or HMP reports if you still believe it's a cushy number.

In reply to Timmd:

ah ok.

Sounds like a very manipulative father

In reply to Babika:

Good, the more hardship the better.



Still to good for the slimeball.

In reply to Babika:

My daughter works at a prison. Not sure id want to be a known child killer at one of these places. Some of the stories are terrible.

In reply to marsbar:

I've just done my update training on dealing with child abuse, as I work with adolescents and am a "mandatory reporter".

Never ever come away from it happy.