UKC

Hiya, I want to pick your collective brains....
This year I am going to lead my first HVS and Id like for it to be a REALLY GOOD ONE in the pass. Theres millions in the guide, which ones do you rate? And please, no giving clues as to how to climb them!

In reply to goosebump:
diagonal is the best hvs in the pass.

In reply to goosebump: I think getting to the foot of the cromlech is HVS, definitely not classic though! How about CG up there?

In reply to Iggy_B:
Int that E1? Please dont turn this into a thread about grade creep...

In reply to goosebump:
yes it's e1 though most e1 climber's think it's hvs

In reply to Anonymous:
my first HVS in the pass was Brant direct, - short, well protected (I think, it was a long time ago) and low in the grade (is it still HVS ?).

Diagonal is a better route but a bit more serious

In reply to Doug:

Yes, the traditional Brant Direct is a good choice. Safe, not too hard. Watch out for the slabs on pitch four if wet, but most people abseil off and count it anyway.

Actually struggling to think of a rival candidate - this strikes me as something of a stand-out. Unless you call Mental Lentils 'in the Pass' and anyway that's hardly a classic.

jcm

In reply to Anonymous:

Brant Direct was my first HVS too a good choice, I found Diagonal a bit disappointing

In reply to goosebump:

Brant Direct would be the obvious one.

There are also a couple of good HVSs on Craig Cwm Glas Bach on the south side of the pass that have decent protection. There is also a good HVS up near Gambit Climb on Clogwyn yr Person though that is a long way to walk.

Bob

In reply to Budge:

Crosstie is at least as good as Diagonal, I reckon. Excellent climb, often overlooked.

In reply to goosebump:

I'll say Brant Direct too, safe as houses. If you do continue on the rest of Brant, don't get lost on the uppoer portions, it all gets easy but run-out.

In reply to Bob:


Route of Knobs?

In reply to goosebump:

I'll go for Diagonal - solely on the basis that a/ it was my first HVS in the pass and b/ I didn't fall off. I also thoroughly enjoyed it but that probably correllates to b/

However - I don't know if your ethics count using a guidebook as "giving clues as to how to climb them" but you might get a mild surprise or two if you don't read the route descrip carefully for clues ...

In reply to goosebump:

I'd recommend Spectre. This was my 1st HVS in the Pass and left me buzzing. It doesn't feel serious, and has two (very different) 5a pitches to nourish off. Also low in the grade.

Can anyone comment on Kaisebirge (sp?) Wall. I fancy a go at it. Is it reasonable for the grade?

In reply to Budge:

Really? Oh well each to their own

In reply to everyone:

Thanks all, got enough suggestions for a little ticklist!

In reply to clams:

Kaisergebirge Wall is top end of the grade, really. Karwendel even more so, for a couple of moves.

Wind, nearby, was always a pretty good sandbag at HVS, but I think it's now gone up to E1.

In reply to Cosmic John:

Crosstie is a lot harder than Diagonal, really, and a lot more serious, so couldn't possibly be recommended as an early HVS lead.

In reply to goosebump:

the mole on the wester wing of dinas mot.










aha.
aha ha ha.

haaaaaaaaaaa hahahahahahahahaha.

In reply to bomb:

i am perplexed. Am I also stupid? is a funny mole

In reply to clams:

>Can anyone comment on Kaisebirge (sp?) Wall. I fancy a go at it. Is it reasonable for the grade?

Yes, very easy. One fingery move set amid a lot of reasonably pleasant semi-walking. Depends what you can do of course. That one move is not easy as HVS goes. Nice route. Don't miss the bicycle crank.

jcm

In reply to goosebump: diagonal

brillant, varied, great positions, not too bad to get to!
enjoy

In reply to hindu:

Someone ought to point out the bleeding obvious - Diagonal would be an appalling choice for a first HVS, at any rate unless you are prepared to deal with a really quite badly protected pitch 2.

jcm

In reply to clams:


Safe but quite hard . Famously "the most fallen off route in the pass" and probably is .

In reply to Postmanpat:

I thought the most fallen off route in the pass is Left Wall. At least that what it says in my guide book! I guess there must be a few contenders.

In reply to Shaw Brown:
Long time since I did Kaisergeberge Wall but I remember it as being mostly straightforward(maybe VS or even S) but with one very hard move. Is the bicycle crank still there ?

At the time I thought Karwendel Wall was a better route but can't remember anything about it now

In reply to Shaw Brown:
You may be right .K Wall is "much fallen off" (Williams) but I think it was described by Harding as "the most fallen off " .Stainforth will know .
In reality I guess Left Wall has superceded it in this respect .

In reply to Anonymous: oh, i'd thought there was an unspoken agreement that we were to sandbag the chap and terrify the bugger....not like you to spoil the game

In reply to Cosmic John:

Looked it up in the guide, Best of Friends.

Bob

In reply to goosebump:

Do Lion, Unicorn, Overlapping Wall, all on the Wastad and see if these suit you. They are graded differently but are all fairly well protected on the hard bits.
Sickle on the grochan is another possibility.

There are dozens of good ones, and lots of good VS routes as well if you find you are moving too slowly on HVS to start with.

In reply to sutty:

Enjoyed Spectre - low in the grade and nice positions/belays.

In reply to clams:

It wasn't too funny at the time I can tell you. Supposedly a 3 star classic.

Lets just say it very much is not.

In reply to goosebump: You could go for West Rib on the Mot. Technically easy but the second pitch (the really good one) is a bit run out.

Andy F

In reply to hutchm:

Is Spectre really 'low in the grade' now? I remember it as quite a desperate outing in the heatwave of August 1968, with a single cable-laid rope, very few runners, no sticky boots and no chalk.

In reply to goosebump: Genuine mistake, I remember a mate wanting to do it and I'm sure he told me it was HVS

In reply to goosebump: I agree with the others who say Brant Direct. It was my first HVS lead in about 1969 when HVS was a proper grade. Non-stickies, no chalk and scant protection of course were de rigeur. But regardless, what stood out for me was the fact that every time you move up, in superb bridging positions, and think: "Ah I could do with a hold there". there it is. It slots together like a good jigsaw. I have done all of the other HVS climbs in that area and that stands out for me. The pity is that it is a single pitch. You need about another three pitches of it. With modern protection you should get a tad more than the four or five decent runners that I got on it. Go do it. It's a joy!

In reply to sutty:

I had a look up Unicorn whilst queueing to to 2nd pitch Lion. Got to the crux move (which was not well protected) and descended.

Ron James does however describes a peg which must be long gone (there appears to have been pegs everywhere in those days!).

In reply to clams:

Pegs were the 50s cams and nuts, only you used less.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I'm with you Gordon. I did it as one of my first HVSs decades ago (seconding the two hard pitches) and fell off the top 5a pitch. I did it again last summer and still thought that wide crack was desperate.

The traverse after the groove on pitch 2 is not badly protected now (assuming some competence backing up the peg) but feels reasonably serious. The final pitch (unbelievably shared with Nea now) is also not trivial whatever grade it's supposed to be!

I also think K routes are a bit ambitious for a first HVS (depends exactly how purist you are about Kaisergebirge but the crack done directly is good value for any HVS). On the other hand, I remember Diagonal as a walk in the park. West Rib is scarier.

I wouldn't recommend anything on the Wastad to someone pushing their grade (tends to be polished or loose, or both!)

Boring, but I agree with John that it has to be Brant Direct. Steep but straightforward with more gear than you could carry.

In reply to Pete:
I did it Brant Direct first time in 1975 or so and thought it straightforward. Did it again 18 months ago and it's got very polished ! Maybe it was just the extra 30 years that made it feel a bit of a struggle .

In reply to Postmanpat: What a shame. Guess that is the fate of all good routes. Did Coronation Street again last October having done it loads of times over the years. Indeed I would put it well near the top of my best routes list. Crux pitch on that is now polished like glass and, I reckon now up a grade. Disappointing. However, nothing to compare with my local crag Avon. Crampons would be better on some of the lower-grade popular routes under E1 Pity, I was saving them for my real dotage in my eighties. Guess they'll be really worn out by then!

In reply to Pete:
Went to Avon (Sea Walls) for the first time in twenty years in 2002 . Boiling hot day , old not very sticky footware and frankly could barely get off the ground for sliding around . A couple of minibuses then turned up and the kids and started top roping everything .I guess that explains the state of the routes .

In reply to Postmanpat:

Brant Direct repulsed me a couple of times before I did it, then the next time we did it in boots in the pouring rain one sunday afternoon in desperation at not having done anything that weekend because of the continuous downpour. How things change once you have done them.

Talking of polish, I did Octo around 1960 and found it steady, apart from the approach up the verical grass. Next time we did a route on the lower tier to approach and found getting round the overhang damn hard due to years of sweat and polish on the rock. It felt most insecure jamming the crack and too slippy to layback.

In reply to sutty:
How do you get to the bottom of Octo? Do you not need to do routes below to get up to it?

In reply to sutty:

I find it hard to believe Octo's that polished. It would be the only route on Cloggy that is, and it's not that popular. I reckon you just got older and less good!

In reply to someone else: it is possible, although extremely memorable, to scramble directly up East Gully to the foot of Octo.

jcm

In reply to Postmanpat:

>A couple of minibuses then turned up and the kids and started top roping everything .I guess that explains the state of the routes .

Just so. The remainder of the crag has a reputation for polish which is massively overstated, but those route just there have been totally trashed by this means.

jcm

In reply to Dave Garnett:

>I did it again last summer and still thought that wide crack was desperate.

You must have been drunk, Dave. Standard Ramshaw HS (and seriously, barely 5a anywhere). No wonder you thought Imposition was E2!!

Spectre was actually a very reasonable alternative suggestion unless like Dave and Gordon you are completely hopeless at wide cracks. Having said that, I'm not sure I've done the bottom pitches because I think we started up Spectrum.

jcm

In reply to sutty:
Ah, Octo . Still kicking myself for not having a go when I had the perfect opportunity ten years ago . I've heard it's got quite slippy so might remain a fantasy

In reply to Cosmic John: I'm glad someone else thinks so too! I always feel a bit of a wuss lacing Wind! No doubt the odd "anonymous" is going insist its bottom end HVS, I always thought The Gates easier (though longer of course). Kardwendel is tricky for the few last moves but certainly solid HVS.

In reply to Anonymous:


That's a damned cheek, oh mighty JCM! I did that route 37 years ago in my first year of leading, three weeks after leading Milestone Buttress, and when my only training had been at Harrison's Rocks, and before I had any real experience of crack climbing. Yes, I did struggle a bit on the top crack, but that wasn't the pitch I was referring to. It paled into relative insignificance compared with the long middle pitch - which my brother led, done with very sweaty fingers, in a heatwave, with a single rope, no chalk, and really minimal gear (but still v bad rope drag because of the single rope and the shape of the pitch.) The whole route in those conditions was extremely taxing, and definitely at least as serious as Diagonal, and probably technically a bit harder. (I did Diagonal two years later, with more experience, better conditions, better gear etc.)

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Fair enough. I agree Diagonal has the manners (these days anyway) never to be badly protected and hard at the same time, and I don't think I've ever done the pitch you mention on Spectre. I thought the crack was the one with the reputation. Whereabouts did John Lawton hurt himself, do you know?

Wind btw - definitely bloody hard for HVS. Here's one anonymous who didn't mind the upgrade; in fact I remember failing on it once in its HVS state.

jcm

In reply to Anonymous:

In 1970 Diagonal wasn't at all well protected, and I suspect it can't be much better now - but most of it is very reasonable, very civilised, balance climbing. My memory is that there was no protection at all before the V groove on the first main pitch (40ft runout?), then just one or two nuts at most before the stance. Pitch 2: Surely just one nut, in a pocket, in about 80 ft? Top pitch well protected but very strenuous and a bit undergraded, totally different from anything below.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Er, no. I'm afraid what you call pitch two (I think guidebook 3 these days) has about six runners immediately before the hard bit, and can be decorated at regular intervals thereafter. The long lonely lead described in Hard Rock is a complete mystery to me; when I did it in 1985 or so that pitch was basically a boulder problem pitch. The pitch up the V-groove was still quite poorly protected, though.

jcm

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Can recall in the 70's linking the pitches together so that I could use the belays as runners and not fall diectly onto the belay .. absolutely super route still recall the balance right and moves up

In reply to Anonymous:

Interesting to hear that the 2nd main pitch (yes, I meant pitch 3) of Diagonal is so well protected now. Not sure why you find it a mystery that the route was very different before the invention of small nuts/wires. In 1970 we had a few very basic nuts but could get very little on that pitch. Arthur Birtwistle on first (and second) ascent did it with no runners at all, and told me he had no pegs with him either, so that the small belay at the top of pitch 2 was very poor indeed.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

True, I suppose. I don't remember the wires being all that small, mind. I started climbing in 1981 when there were wires from 1-9, and I suppose I find it difficult to recall that when wires first came in (1967 or so?) there weren't all those sizes. So what range, in modern 1-9 terms, was available in 1967-70 or so?

jcm

In reply to Anonymous:
>I don't remember the wires being all that small, mind. I started climbing in 1981 when there were wires from 1-9, and I suppose I find it difficult to recall that when wires first came in (1967 or so?) there weren't all those sizes. So what range, in modern 1-9 terms, was available in 1967-70 or so?

The (Clog) wires weren't very small to start with. and as far as I remember they came in in very late 1969, at the v earliest. I suppose about the equivalent of Rock 2 was the smallest, but i really can't quite remember. The main point about them was that they were quite broad, gently tapered flat-sided wedges, on very stiff wire - so they got flicked out incredibly easily. I would say, however hard you tried, at least one in three would fall out. With a bad leader, anywhere between 60 and 100 per cent!

I've still got a lot of this ancient stuff in a trunk up in the attic. I've got a feeling - at least I hope - that my very first ('Davek') climbing harness, c. late 1969, is up there somewhere.

The only original nut I still use is my MOAC from 1968. It's been re-threaded at least twice. But I'm very superstitious about it, so don't take it now on many climbs. (Well, I'm not climbing much now, anyway!)

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I started climbing a few years after you (early 70's) by which time 'nut technology' had advanced a bit, Chouinard hexes & stoppers were on sale but I don't remember seeing small stoppers on wire. I had some Clog 'micronuts' which were smallish but as you said on very stiff wire but even they were larger than some of the smaller stoppers, rocks, RPs etc which are avaible today.

Of the original few nuts I bought I still use some hexes & large stoppers (re threaded several times)

But I remember hearing of other nuts such as Pecks & Crackers, what were they ?

In reply to Doug:


Peck Crackers

http://www.needlesports.com/nutsmuseum/nutsstory.htm