UKC

In reply to tmawer:

Well it sounds very much as though it is an issue. When I saw your photos, I was horrified. Unless there's some amazingly good reason for these bolts being placed, surely the perpetrators should be asked to remove them?

Mick

In reply to tmawer:

Pull them. Pull them quick

In reply to tmawer:

Pull these out.

In reply to Mick Ward:

I don't know who put them in, or what the agreement is about this kind of thing in Borrowdale. Perhaps someone with more knowledge will be along......Ronnie Kenyon or Steve Read perhaps?

In reply to tmawer:

They are neatly placed and hardly interefering and clearly aren't being used as protection on any climbs if they are at the top of the crag, what's the harm? Perhaps a group of abseilers set them up, or an outdoor group.

Climbers aren't the only people who use the rock.

In reply to Removed User:

So is the principal that bolts at the top of any crag, perhaps placed by abseilers or outdoor groups is Ok if neatly placed? I thought we had policies about this but I'm not clear what they are, but I doubt your position fits it.

In reply to tmawer:

Placing bolts on an established trad crag without consultation with the local climbing community usually results in them being removed and some kind public vilification on an online forum for the 'perpetrators'. I think that would be appropriate here, if indeed that how's it's gone down.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

If it's the bit of rock I'm thinking about, bolts have been in it for a least the last few years and its not an established trad crag. It's a crappy little slab a good few 100m below the real crag and would only be of climbing interest to a child on an activity course.

I don't know who put them in but they aren't harming anyone and are not establishing any precedent for bolts on rock climbs in the area.

In reply to tmawer:


More facts are needed before we jump to conclusions.

However, there has to be a VERY good reason for this. My personal feeling is that there is no place for bolts in this area of the lakes.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

That puts rather a different spin on things - if the bolts aren't actually on the crag, then why the hell would we climbers be bothered?

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

I think you are right.... But they look new. In themselves they are not an issue, but I think there are bigger issues involved as I suggest in my post.

In reply to tmawer:

I wouldn't worry too much - placing bolts requires kit and effort. Anyone who has the wherewithal to place any bolts knows enough about climbing not to place them inappropriately. Obviously there'll always be the odd occurrence that ruffles feathers, but I don't think these bolts (or others placed on little bits of rocks with no routes) will have any bearing on that.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

In what way is it err 'crappy'? What makes it 'crappy' in your opinion. Is there a level of crappiness beyond which you can do what you like to it?

In reply to Bulls Crack:

I suspect he means it's just not steep or nor big enough to have routes. As such what has it got to do with us?

In reply to Removed User:

Let's hope it's the thin end of the wedge....

In reply to tmawer:
Tony, you will probably also be aware very close to your bolted location, that the descent from the top of Castle Crag Zoar was multi-bolted several years ago (quite an appalling thing to see). I think in this case it was done by the farmer as part of a fence project.
All bolts should be chopped anyway.
It's not part of the heritage for our area.
Next area meeting topic, but better to get the retaliation in first as Whillans said.
DC

To those who think it's not an issue because it's not a crag with proper routes, I'd say that it's a shiny bit of modern technology in a relatively pristine part of the Lake District, which will be associated by most with rock climbers. One of the great things about the Lakes - and I've only visited a few times - is its sense of history and timelessness. I'd remove a crisp packet or orange peel, and I don't really see this as all that different.

Also, all the beginners who see those bolts, and abseil or top-rope from them will also associate them with rock-climbing in the area … not a piece of education I think any of us would want to instil at a subliminal level.

In reply to Siderunner:

You do know there is a fully bolted sport crag in borrowdale don't you? Dalt Quarry And also a concreted absiel platform above a cave with a few bolted routes on it on the path up to the bowderstone. Admittedly all on quarried rock but still, bolts are not as alien as you might think to borrowdale.

As for these particular bolts though, if they were on a natural trad climbing crag I'd agree remove them but in this case they are on the top of a bit of rock that as far as I see has no association with the sport of trad rock climbing. You'd be no more justified chopping them and wrecking some outdoor centres activity as you would chopping the farmers gates off the stone walls because you don't like seeing the metal working the outdoors.

As climbers we should be responsible for maintaining our crags but we are not dictators and inforcers of what happens to every bit of stone in a mountain area, particularly ones used for things outside climbing.

In reply to tmawer:

There do seem to be quite a few small crags and outcrops in the lakes that have bolts in the top.

I can think of a few.

Church Crag
The little outcrop at the top of the zig zags past Howtown.
The small outcrop next to the Diamond face, Eskdale.
think there may be some in the lower outcrop at Gowbarrow Crag

There must be many more?

In reply to petegunn:

Hoad Slabs

In reply to petegunn:

Grisedale:
Thornhow Crag

In reply to gritrash0:

Some bolts at the top of Seathwaite Slabs, but you have to look hard to find them. Don't seem to be doing any harm there.

In reply to pnorth:

Hmm... are they doing any good there?

Mick

In reply to tmawer:

Can anyone confirm there's actually a 'solid tree' next to the bolts? Just asking (the one in the photo would seem to be off to the side and likely not allow for top roping)

In reply to Michael Gordon:

The tree next to the bolts is central and would, I would have thought be fine on such a small outcrop. 5 bolts seems unnecessary to me, but I'm not an instructor!

In reply to tmawer:

Thanks. Yes, the bolts do seem especially unnecessary if, as you say, there is a decent tree right there.

In reply to Removed User:



Agreed. I'd much rather see bolts like this than trees killed by ropes and ravaged gear placements that are used for top-roping three times a week.

In reply to ianstevens:

That's one reason why there are in situ anchors on trees at many crags

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Well yes, but again, manky rope (as most generally are) or a discrete bolt?

In reply to ianstevens:


There is no need to kill trees. If the anchor belay is properly constructed the tree will come to no harm.

Any "instructor" who can't set up a belay to a tree without harming it is not worthy of the title and should be stripped of their qualification.

In reply to ianstevens:

Bolts aren't discrete. Rope can be replaced if found to be 'manky'.

In reply to ianstevens:


What about worn gear placements on routes? (Caused by thin ends of wedges....)

In reply to Michael Gordon & Bulls Crack:

I disagree - these bolts look very discrete. You would probably trip over them before you noticed them. I appreciate that bolting isn't always done is such a subtle way however - Lion's Rock opposite Llanberis being a prime example with rusty, home made hangers clear as day.

Bulls Crack - yes, the thin end of the wedge indeed, and I appreciate your point. Just to clarify, I'm not for widespread bolting of crags across the country, more making the point that certain crags with certain functions can (but not always) benefit from bolts for anchors only. I'm certainly not advocating bolting classics with worn gear placements, and I've certainly climbed a few in my time. However, it could well be the case in future that climbs become so worn the natural protection that was avalible no longer is useable. I'd rather see bolts placed next to knackered placements than let classic E2's become E8's as they become unprotectable. Obviously this is several (hopefully many!) years down the line and who knows what technology will provide us with in the form of new types of pro.

In reply to ianstevens:
Please get a grip - plant trees, that is the sensible option as it avoids all controversy. Trees get killed by wind, disease and sheep so they are ephemeral and need continually replaced if you want an ab point. This has been done on some crags successfully but it needs more effort. There is no controversy about bolts where ab trees exist and when they get replaced.
DC

In reply to tmawer:

How about the person who put the bolts in come on here and explain their rationale for doing it?

Would be nice to have an informed bolt debate for once. Too much to hope for?

In reply to Dave Cumberland:




The two aren't mutually exclusive - we can have lots of lovely trees and bolts living in unison. As you highlight, new ab trees are a temporary solution, whereas a gluein is far more permenant. 10 years for a tree before it's killed by ropes vs 25+ for a modern bolt? (Sea cliffs excluded here). What we need for these sort of crags is a sensible, long-term solution which discrete bolts for anchors offer, when agreed upon by the community (i.e. those who actually use the crag...) - not just placed by someone on a whim.

In reply to ianstevens:


I sincerely hope that you are very much alone in this opinion.

You'd rather bolt than see an (albeit inprobable) jump of 6 grades. Where would you draw the line? I can think of various routes which have almost certainly gone up a grade due to knackered nut placements. Would you bolt these?

In reply to Max factor:



I did not put them in but noticed them in 2014.

Tony nailed it with the OP

"I'm not sure what the policy is about this, Steel Knotts(Borrowdale) but I spotted these today on a small outcrop below Steel Knotts in Borrowdale; I would guess they have been placed by a centre for top roping. There is a solid tree next to the bolts. Do centres have free reign to do this kind of thing? Seems rather lazy to me and probably gives the wrong impression to the users. It's quick and convenient and allows centres to employ people with few qualifications, who perhaps they can pay less as they don't need to think much......or am I being overly cinical and really it's not an issue?"

The tree is on the lip so unless you throw a rope both sides not easy for a top rope ( or good for the tree )
The path down the side is now well worn, indicating that novices are top roped up then walk down.
The alternative belays to bolts are trees and boulders well ( 30m? ) back so extra ropes to carry and stretch to consider.
The "crag " was of little interest to mainstream climbers and was probably heavily cleaned to make it attractive to groups.


All the clues indicate discovery, cleaning and bolting for ease and convenience by an outdoor centre/instructors.

Previously I have taken up the issue of bolts placed by instructors on "climbers crags " with the centres concerned, though the BMC.

In this case the consensus amongst my climbing circle was to ignore them as it did not concern " climbers crags" and could reduce the impact of groups on " our crags ".

If you want to remove them ask for advice on how to do it neatly.

In reply to Robert Durran:


I don't. I'd rather not see top quality routes get left alone becasue of a stubborn "bolts are bad" mindset.


I fail to see how the loss of each and every gear placement wouldn't give a huge jump in grades. Maybe not 6 notches, but, for example, say all the gear placements on Left Wall became rendered useless. Rather than a classic E2 5c, you've got a sustained 5c solo - easily worth E5 or 6, and only to be climbed by those with a death wish or with a couple of tech grades in hand. Yes, bolting to replace the busted placements would detract from what the route once was, but far less so than something only climbable by the wads. Note that I would only propose putting bolts next to old gear placements, not changing the character by bolting in a "sport" style. For one placement, I wouldn't bother, especailly if it only affected the route to the tune of one grade. I'm not aiming to make such climbs easier and safer than they would be in their original state, although i appreciate that a bolt and trad gear are very differnet beasts.

I'd like to add that this all seems somewhat unlikely in the near future, and is hypothetical - I'm not suggesting we go out and bolt everything tomorrow, more that we need to be aware that overuse (lets be honest) of routes will eventually change them gbeyond recognition and make them substantially more dangerous. For climbing to continue in a similar form to that which it does today, some form of "maintainace" will need to be undertaken. Having said all that, I hope it's a decision to be taken by a generation beyond mine.

In reply to ianstevens:


Bolts on TRAD routes are bad - completely antithetical to the UK climbing ethos.


Couldn't possibly happen. We're talking about the odd key placement on certain routes.


Daft anti-elitist nonsense!

Anyway, for every classic E2 that gets harder, an E1 will become another classic E2 for you to do.


PRECISELY! If you put a bolt next to the now knackered and marginal small wires which "protect" the crux of Superdirect on the Mot (which in my opinion is definitely worth E2 now), the whole character of the route is changed - much better to have a committing E1 become a boldish E2 than neuter the substance of the route with a bolt.


Placing bolts will change the form of climbing. Having the odd route get bolder will not.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Rob's right.

Look at the big picture.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Rob - I think you're missing my point - I agree with you on the odd placement - no need to bolt these. Like it or not one day ALL the nice protection WILL wear out, meaning climbs will have no gear at all - hopefully not in either of our lifetimes. Either climbing dies or bolts go in. Hopefully it will not be our choice to make; I'm not talking about next week, next year or even the next ten years - but what will probably happen in 50/100 years. Although the human race will have probably blown itself up by then anyway.

In reply to ianstevens:

The change from E2 to maybe E3 in exceptional circumstances is far less than the change from E2 to maybe f6a as you propose

In reply to tmawer:

In all the comments on this contentious issue no one has indicated that they have a actually climbed on this little slab (which has been named Steel Knotts Bluff), I didn't place the bolts but I have climbed there and it will feature in the forthcoming Borrowdale Guide as a "picnic crag" - it gives 4 or 5 pleasant little climbs between D and S which are great for children (as noted by at least one contributor to this thread). Yes there is a holly tree at the top but it is towards the right hand side and wouldn't give a belay directly above the easiest routes and the top does not have any other suitable nut placements, a slip near the top would result in an unpleasant pendulum, a form of aversion therapy?Additionally it is quite a gnarled tree and likely be damaged/seen off by any regular use as an anchor.

There are other bolts in Borrowdale, at the top of Lower Seathwaite Slabs (another picnic crag). The top of Sergeant Crag Slabs (which is not a picnic crag) - they are there for the convenience of "proper climbers"; this crag had an oak tree equipped with in-situ slings as its ab station yet that tree died within a few years of the crag being opened up in the mid 90's. There are bolts in Footless Crow, Footless Horse, Voyage and Mirage on Goat and Dangler on Lower Falcon also sports a bolt - all stem from the aid climbing era and are now ancient - but they weren't antiques when those routes were first free climbed (30 - 40 years ago) and they weren't chopped by the great and good prior to being climbed free. Slightly further afield S Lakes Limestone is peppered with bolts, apparently that is "OK" because a self appointed committee of local climbers approved it.

Neither Steel Knotts Bluff nor Lower Seathwaite Slabs are crags of any interest to climbers other than those with beginners and young children and they perform a useful service for the rest of us by taking organised groups away from more significant crags and have no impact on recreational climbers in the valley, I don't see them as being the thin end of any wedge - that can be viewed at the top of Sergeant Crag Slabs (if not on Goat). Leave well alone, they are doing no harm.

I will now retire to my nuclear fallout shelter!

In reply to Trevor Langhorne:


I pressed the like button in general approval to this post , Trevor.

But, despite possibly being one of the "self appointed committee" I would like to remind everybody that at the time the " Bolt Wars " were effectively sorted out by the BMC areas and HQ.

Numerous well publicized meetings and about as democratic a process as could be organised.

Possibly the first time ethics and policies had been sorted out without ridicule on the crag, in the pub or climbing magazines.