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Does anyone else think that it is dangerous to 'spot' anyone climbing above 5 metres?You sometimes see people with their arms outstretched towards a climber far too high for them to be any help if he or she falls, other than to be injured themselves.
Post edited at 22:15
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In reply to rtinma:
I know, I was "spotting" my mate on a short grit solo and when he fell off about 5m up I just ran out of the way. He was larger than me and I thought that running to get help was the best thing all round.
I know, I was "spotting" my mate on a short grit solo and when he fell off about 5m up I just ran out of the way. He was larger than me and I thought that running to get help was the best thing all round.
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In reply to rtinma:
As previous reply, certainly not trying to catch them, just fending/pushing them back onto the mat. Mainly to protect the head.
As previous reply, certainly not trying to catch them, just fending/pushing them back onto the mat. Mainly to protect the head.
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In reply to jim jones:
Which raises the question why more highball boulderers don't wear a helmet. I did see someone bouldering at Almscliff wearing a helmet, but that was unusual.
Which raises the question why more highball boulderers don't wear a helmet. I did see someone bouldering at Almscliff wearing a helmet, but that was unusual.
Post edited at 22:20
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In reply to rtinma:
The main point being a fall or jump from that height, usually involves at least a stagger or bounce towards a tree or boulder etc.
The main point being a fall or jump from that height, usually involves at least a stagger or bounce towards a tree or boulder etc.
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In reply to rtinma:
I guess you'd need to check through the Bouldering Gallery on here to see how popular helmets are. It's entirely personal choice of course but it could also be argued that a helmet is just as important indoor bouldering. No rules (fortunately!) so if anyone wants to wear a helmet they can.
> Which raises the question why more highball boulderers don't wear a helmet. I did see someone bouldering at Almscliff wearing a helmet, but that was unusual.
I guess you'd need to check through the Bouldering Gallery on here to see how popular helmets are. It's entirely personal choice of course but it could also be argued that a helmet is just as important indoor bouldering. No rules (fortunately!) so if anyone wants to wear a helmet they can.
Post edited at 22:33
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In reply to jim jones:
Maybe it's the freedom on climbing unencumbered that we don't want to lose, even though some boulder problems now are more like micro routes. So pads and spotters trump the need for helmets.
Maybe it's the freedom on climbing unencumbered that we don't want to lose, even though some boulder problems now are more like micro routes. So pads and spotters trump the need for helmets.
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In reply to rtinma:
Vermin Sherman agrees and he's a bit bleedin good.
youtube.com/watch?v=2pGy1Iop8M0&
Vermin Sherman agrees and he's a bit bleedin good.
youtube.com/watch?v=2pGy1Iop8M0&
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In reply to rtinma:
Agreed, but doesn't even have to be high-balling IMHO. I've come close to knocking my head off a few times even on rather short stuff. Seems odd to me that helmets aren't worn more. I'm as guilty as anyone else.
> Which raises the question why more highball boulderers don't wear a helmet. I did see someone bouldering at Almscliff wearing a helmet, but that was unusual.
Agreed, but doesn't even have to be high-balling IMHO. I've come close to knocking my head off a few times even on rather short stuff. Seems odd to me that helmets aren't worn more. I'm as guilty as anyone else.
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In reply to Oldsign:
Great video, which makes a good point about helmets, but also shows the risk of being a spotter of someone at that height. She could get seriously hurt if he came off.
Great video, which makes a good point about helmets, but also shows the risk of being a spotter of someone at that height. She could get seriously hurt if he came off.
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In reply to rtinma:
Yes, she could. Alternatively, she could just step backwards/aside slightly and assist in his safe landing.
> Great video, which makes a good point about helmets, but also shows the risk of being a spotter of someone at that height. She could get seriously hurt if he came off.
Yes, she could. Alternatively, she could just step backwards/aside slightly and assist in his safe landing.
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In reply to Willi Crater:
its a social norm and we all do it. I suspect mostly because we think we'd look like big soft jessies. but also it does undermine the climbing unencumbered thing and the freedom. its nice feeling as though youre just getting on and doing it without any extras except your shoes, a chalk bag and a nice big mat.
its a social norm and we all do it. I suspect mostly because we think we'd look like big soft jessies. but also it does undermine the climbing unencumbered thing and the freedom. its nice feeling as though youre just getting on and doing it without any extras except your shoes, a chalk bag and a nice big mat.
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In reply to pebbles:
I thought that, except that almost all my bouldering is done on my own, out of view of anyone else
Yes - probably closer to this for me.
> its a social norm and we all do it. I suspect mostly because we think we'd look like big soft jessies.
I thought that, except that almost all my bouldering is done on my own, out of view of anyone else
> but also it does undermine the climbing unencumbered thing and the freedom. its nice feeling as though youre just getting on and doing it without any extras except your shoes, a chalk bag and a nice big mat.
Yes - probably closer to this for me.
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In reply to Fraser:
It's the assisting bit that worries me. How on earth could she be any help to 80 kilos of flailing limbs descending from 5 metres? Perhaps some boffin could calculate the speed and energy involved using e=mc2!
It's the assisting bit that worries me. How on earth could she be any help to 80 kilos of flailing limbs descending from 5 metres? Perhaps some boffin could calculate the speed and energy involved using e=mc2!
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In reply to rtinma:
If anybody is confused about what the purpose of spotting is they can watch this very informative video. Skip forward to 1:20.
vimeo.com/20950672
It's not about catching somebody, its about doing your best to make sure they land upright and on the pads if possible. This often takes the form of somebody standing on a nasty boulder and giving the falling climber a good shove away from it if needed.
If anybody is confused about what the purpose of spotting is they can watch this very informative video. Skip forward to 1:20.
vimeo.com/20950672
It's not about catching somebody, its about doing your best to make sure they land upright and on the pads if possible. This often takes the form of somebody standing on a nasty boulder and giving the falling climber a good shove away from it if needed.
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In reply to rtinma:
Yeah, the outstretched arms are pointless. Let'em bounce and then, once the potentially bone-snapping energy of the fall has been dissipated, make sure they don't go head first into a rock.
Yeah, the outstretched arms are pointless. Let'em bounce and then, once the potentially bone-snapping energy of the fall has been dissipated, make sure they don't go head first into a rock.
Post edited at 13:18
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In reply to rtinma:
Read the article linked to below then tell me spotting from a highball (or in this case, decking from 12m up a sport route with no clips in) can't make a difference:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=6686
Read the article linked to below then tell me spotting from a highball (or in this case, decking from 12m up a sport route with no clips in) can't make a difference:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=6686
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
Yes as a tall man I particularly like spotters for this reason as my head will potentially finish a lot further from where my feet landed if I fall backwards. I'm very conscious about this at busy indoor climbing walls and worry about head collisons with the not so tall folk who maybe don't always appreciate how far I can travel horizontally after my feet land. I'm looking for spotters more to act as a shield rather than 'catch' me.
Yes as a tall man I particularly like spotters for this reason as my head will potentially finish a lot further from where my feet landed if I fall backwards. I'm very conscious about this at busy indoor climbing walls and worry about head collisons with the not so tall folk who maybe don't always appreciate how far I can travel horizontally after my feet land. I'm looking for spotters more to act as a shield rather than 'catch' me.
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In reply to rtinma:
Take a leaf out of this spotter's book - no chance of them getting injured.....
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=184807
Take a leaf out of this spotter's book - no chance of them getting injured.....
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=184807
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In reply to rtinma:
Yes. You know what you're signing up for when you start a climb, and if you're soloing or at the start of a bold trad route you probably don't have a pad. As such, I doubt a spotter would do anything other than interrupt your landing. IMHO and experience, I'd rather be able to aim my landing, drop and roll in such a scenario without anyone else in the way for me to batter into. Also handy for when you need someone to drive you to the nearest x-ray machine.
> Does anyone else think that it is dangerous to 'spot' anyone climbing above 5 metres?You sometimes see people with their arms outstretched towards a climber far too high for them to be any help if he or she falls, other than to be injured themselves.
Yes. You know what you're signing up for when you start a climb, and if you're soloing or at the start of a bold trad route you probably don't have a pad. As such, I doubt a spotter would do anything other than interrupt your landing. IMHO and experience, I'd rather be able to aim my landing, drop and roll in such a scenario without anyone else in the way for me to batter into. Also handy for when you need someone to drive you to the nearest x-ray machine.
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In reply to rtinma:
Most people I see spotting do so with arms outstretched, however I have been led to believe that the correct technique, is to have your arms crossed at the wrists, and that you aint catching people, but deflecting them from the worst danger.
Most people I see spotting do so with arms outstretched, however I have been led to believe that the correct technique, is to have your arms crossed at the wrists, and that you aint catching people, but deflecting them from the worst danger.
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In reply to rtinma:
The point of spotting is not to catch your partner, but to push them into the wall so they will be slowed by friction. If they
fall from higher up you just need to push harder.
CB
The point of spotting is not to catch your partner, but to push them into the wall so they will be slowed by friction. If they
fall from higher up you just need to push harder.
CB
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In reply to Fraser:
Yes, really helpful article as it reinforces Jon's point that spotting someone high up is best after they have hit the deck.
Yes, really helpful article as it reinforces Jon's point that spotting someone high up is best after they have hit the deck.
Post edited at 17:44
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In reply to rtinma:
Very easy and nothing to do with e=mc2.
After 5m you would be falling at 9.9m/s which is 22mph.
http://www.angio.net/personal/climb/speed
> It's the assisting bit that worries me. How on earth could she be any help to 80 kilos of flailing limbs descending from 5 metres? Perhaps some boffin could calculate the speed and energy involved using e=mc2!
Very easy and nothing to do with e=mc2.
After 5m you would be falling at 9.9m/s which is 22mph.
http://www.angio.net/personal/climb/speed
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In reply to jim jones:
Alter rock in derby wont let you wear a helmet bouldering. They say its highly dangerous and there is a risk of you hanging yourself if the helmet gets caught on a hold.
Alter rock in derby wont let you wear a helmet bouldering. They say its highly dangerous and there is a risk of you hanging yourself if the helmet gets caught on a hold.
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In reply to andy.smythe:
To be fair, I would think the main head danger in bouldering is smacking your head on a rocky bit on the ground; something which most of the bouldering walls I've visited tend to lack.
> Alter rock in derby wont let you wear a helmet bouldering. They say its highly dangerous and there is a risk of you hanging yourself if the helmet gets caught on a hold.
To be fair, I would think the main head danger in bouldering is smacking your head on a rocky bit on the ground; something which most of the bouldering walls I've visited tend to lack.
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In reply to rtinma:
Clearly no-one is going to dissuade you from your established position, fair enough.
Clearly no-one is going to dissuade you from your established position, fair enough.
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In reply to Fraser:
No at all. Your post was really helpful and I hope that the discussion above has helped in what is a grey area. Perhaps spotting is more of an art than a science, with a healthy dose of common sense thrown in for good measure. Thanks.
No at all. Your post was really helpful and I hope that the discussion above has helped in what is a grey area. Perhaps spotting is more of an art than a science, with a healthy dose of common sense thrown in for good measure. Thanks.
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In reply to rtinma:
It did, and sorry if my last post came off as sarky. I have a bit of a thing about decent spotting...and lack thereof!
It did, and sorry if my last post came off as sarky. I have a bit of a thing about decent spotting...and lack thereof!
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In reply to johncook:
What force does the 7kN refer to, and how did you work it out?
> 36kph approx., 7kN approx.
What force does the 7kN refer to, and how did you work it out?
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In reply to andrewmcleod: 7kN is the energy in the system, similar to the calculations used for loading of gear. I made several assumptions, but so do the gear manufacturers.
The formula is E = m x v2 where E is energy in kN, m is mass in kg, and v is velocity in m/s.
To obtain velocity use formula v = g x t where v is velocity(m/s), g is acceleration due to gravity(m/sec/sec) and t is time taken to fall (secs)
To find time use t = square root of 2d/g, where t is time in secs, d is distance in m, and g is acceleration due to gravity.
I rounded off g to 10m/sec/sec as all the other given dimensions were approx.
If he had fallen 5m onto a piece of gear he should have loaded it to somewhere in the region of 7kN. I know I have many assumptions but it gives a reasonable result.
If others want to improve on my calcs feel free. It is after all Christmas and we all have plenty of time to spare as the weather is crap and the walls are closed.
The formula is E = m x v2 where E is energy in kN, m is mass in kg, and v is velocity in m/s.
To obtain velocity use formula v = g x t where v is velocity(m/s), g is acceleration due to gravity(m/sec/sec) and t is time taken to fall (secs)
To find time use t = square root of 2d/g, where t is time in secs, d is distance in m, and g is acceleration due to gravity.
I rounded off g to 10m/sec/sec as all the other given dimensions were approx.
If he had fallen 5m onto a piece of gear he should have loaded it to somewhere in the region of 7kN. I know I have many assumptions but it gives a reasonable result.
If others want to improve on my calcs feel free. It is after all Christmas and we all have plenty of time to spare as the weather is crap and the walls are closed.
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In reply to johncook:
I don't know where E ("energy in kN") is coming from.
If you're falling at 10 m/s, F=ma, so to stationary with uniform deceleration F=mv/t. If your climber is 70kg, you get 7kN if you decelerate in 0.1s.
This is probably about right for hitting a mat. But gets proportionally less if the time is increased, as would happen as soon as your spotter starts to hit you - pushing the force out to 0.4 s will quarter the force (although it gets messy because it's not linear). Think crumple zones.
You can't compare to gear because those calculations involve rope stretch, which is a completely different situation.
I don't know where E ("energy in kN") is coming from.
If you're falling at 10 m/s, F=ma, so to stationary with uniform deceleration F=mv/t. If your climber is 70kg, you get 7kN if you decelerate in 0.1s.
This is probably about right for hitting a mat. But gets proportionally less if the time is increased, as would happen as soon as your spotter starts to hit you - pushing the force out to 0.4 s will quarter the force (although it gets messy because it's not linear). Think crumple zones.
You can't compare to gear because those calculations involve rope stretch, which is a completely different situation.
In reply to johncook:
kN is a measurement of force, not energy. You can calculate the energy of the falling climber (although the formula is E = 1/2 m v^2). In SI units (kg and m/s) the energy will be in joules (J). Energy is equal to force time distance, but in practice (since force varies with time) you need to calculate the integral of F(x) x dx (where dx is tiny elements of distance). Calculating/estimating/measuring/modelling F(x) is left as an exercise to the reader...
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t = sqrt(2 D / g) = 1.0 s
v = g * t = 9.9 m/s
E = 0.5 * m * v^2 = 3.9 kJ
This is also assuming wind resistance is not important; the terminal velocity of a fallling skydiver is (apparently) 54 m/s so if you get close enough to that this assumption is no longer valid.
As climbwhenready has already stated you can't calculate (or even get an educated guess at) a force with the information at hand. You can approximate a force if you assume either a distance or a time over which the climber stops, but even if you had any good guess at these (you don't) you would only calculate an average force (which is uninteresting as you only care about the maximum force) and you have to assume the climber is a solid body (they aren't).
Hence why DMM have a big drop tower and all these things are measured empirically, or fitted to empirically-derived models...
kN is a measurement of force, not energy. You can calculate the energy of the falling climber (although the formula is E = 1/2 m v^2). In SI units (kg and m/s) the energy will be in joules (J). Energy is equal to force time distance, but in practice (since force varies with time) you need to calculate the integral of F(x) x dx (where dx is tiny elements of distance). Calculating/estimating/measuring/modelling F(x) is left as an exercise to the reader...
80kg
5m
t = sqrt(2 D / g) = 1.0 s
v = g * t = 9.9 m/s
E = 0.5 * m * v^2 = 3.9 kJ
This is also assuming wind resistance is not important; the terminal velocity of a fallling skydiver is (apparently) 54 m/s so if you get close enough to that this assumption is no longer valid.
As climbwhenready has already stated you can't calculate (or even get an educated guess at) a force with the information at hand. You can approximate a force if you assume either a distance or a time over which the climber stops, but even if you had any good guess at these (you don't) you would only calculate an average force (which is uninteresting as you only care about the maximum force) and you have to assume the climber is a solid body (they aren't).
Hence why DMM have a big drop tower and all these things are measured empirically, or fitted to empirically-derived models...
In reply to jim jones:
Is it worth pointing out that most climbing helmets are designed to protect from directly above, not from the side. So unless you come off and land vertically, head first, wearing a climbing helmet when bouldering wouldn't do much? It would be interesting to know if a cycling helmet would be any better.
Is it worth pointing out that most climbing helmets are designed to protect from directly above, not from the side. So unless you come off and land vertically, head first, wearing a climbing helmet when bouldering wouldn't do much? It would be interesting to know if a cycling helmet would be any better.
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In reply to Pbob:
They do provide some side protection though, as I know having recently slipped in a cave and smacked the side of my head (temple area) quite hard on some rock. Bit of a headache for a bit, but nothing else fortunately...
They only need to protect your brain after all - your face is expendable.
They do provide some side protection though, as I know having recently slipped in a cave and smacked the side of my head (temple area) quite hard on some rock. Bit of a headache for a bit, but nothing else fortunately...
They only need to protect your brain after all - your face is expendable.
Post edited at 19:23
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