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Regular Rocktalk poster, Sloper has got in touch to highlight the continuing problem in the Peak District with over zealous wire-brushing. This time it's Stanage and the big boulder below the Unconquerables. I can't believe that these idiots are actually out to 'create' new problems, but why it's not obvious to them that grit is too fragile to wire brush is beyond me...
From Sloper:
"Sad I know but some ignorant tossers have been out with the
steel brushes again. The boulder under the Unconquerables
at Stanage [with fear & Loathing I'm led to believe] has
been vandalised.
The front face looks like its been climbed with ice tools
and holds systematically improved.
The back side has a 51/5b arete which was climable with a
soft rub with tooth brush that now looks like its been
through an industrial process.
But you have to see the back face. It takes brushing to a
new level. You can actually see groves in the rock.
Flakes have been 'brushed off' and an area with a diameter
of 10 cm is now red raw around each hold. The problems on
the back were future classics waiting to be climbed, at
least >V10 according to people who actually know what V10
feels like.
What we do about it is another matter but perhaps if the
people tempted to brush knew that these were problems with
a long history of ascents rather than unclimbed the
temptation would be reduced. Personally I climbed the
front of the boulder in c. 1994 along with the both aretes
on the left of the block and both slabs on the sides and I
know that these were'nt the first ascents."
From Sloper:
"Sad I know but some ignorant tossers have been out with the
steel brushes again. The boulder under the Unconquerables
at Stanage [with fear & Loathing I'm led to believe] has
been vandalised.
The front face looks like its been climbed with ice tools
and holds systematically improved.
The back side has a 51/5b arete which was climable with a
soft rub with tooth brush that now looks like its been
through an industrial process.
But you have to see the back face. It takes brushing to a
new level. You can actually see groves in the rock.
Flakes have been 'brushed off' and an area with a diameter
of 10 cm is now red raw around each hold. The problems on
the back were future classics waiting to be climbed, at
least >V10 according to people who actually know what V10
feels like.
What we do about it is another matter but perhaps if the
people tempted to brush knew that these were problems with
a long history of ascents rather than unclimbed the
temptation would be reduced. Personally I climbed the
front of the boulder in c. 1994 along with the both aretes
on the left of the block and both slabs on the sides and I
know that these were'nt the first ascents."
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
Anyone with a Digital camera, we'd appreciate some pics.
Thanks
--
Anyone with a Digital camera, we'd appreciate some pics.
Thanks
--
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
i cant quite understand this chipping mentality. if you aint good enough to climb it, why dont you f*ck off and try something easier instead of ruining the climb for everyone else...
i guess if your ego is your driving force to climb then you'll do anything to feed it. worlds full of usless climbers who think they are better than they are though...
whats even sadder is the wont own up to doing it, knowing they'd get there head kicked in...
if you want to climb artificial climbs, build a climbing wall in your house and leave the real climbing to thoses who accept minute and marginal holds for what they... a challenge!
i cant quite understand this chipping mentality. if you aint good enough to climb it, why dont you f*ck off and try something easier instead of ruining the climb for everyone else...
i guess if your ego is your driving force to climb then you'll do anything to feed it. worlds full of usless climbers who think they are better than they are though...
whats even sadder is the wont own up to doing it, knowing they'd get there head kicked in...
if you want to climb artificial climbs, build a climbing wall in your house and leave the real climbing to thoses who accept minute and marginal holds for what they... a challenge!
In reply to Robert: Poblem is people don't see brushing as chipping. If wire brushes became as unacceptable as, say Pof, perhaps this might help, lets just get the message out that this boulder has been spolit and if people start talking about their project on the back be very careful to ask them about the brushing.
In reply...
i cant see how anbody can see wire brushing as acceptable.
a tooth brush is more than adequate for respectable cleaning, they clean holds.
wire brushes errode the rock they dont clean it... once the top layer is gone then the rock just crumbles away the more it is used...
some people must know someone who is chipping/wire brushing. stand up to them... name and shame them before they ruin even more boulders...
i cant see how anbody can see wire brushing as acceptable.
a tooth brush is more than adequate for respectable cleaning, they clean holds.
wire brushes errode the rock they dont clean it... once the top layer is gone then the rock just crumbles away the more it is used...
some people must know someone who is chipping/wire brushing. stand up to them... name and shame them before they ruin even more boulders...
In reply to Sloper:
Perhaps the BMC should run an anti-chipping campaign together with one of the magazines? We need a constant flow of editorial like that from John Horscroft (good effort January Climber). I know it's partly the search for more rock and trying to find the next great boulder problem, but chipping isn't going to get you the fame that you're after.
This isn't going to go away without more publicity, more awareness and more condemnation. It seems like every time I go bouldering thesedays you come across something dubious (Andy Brown's wall - Earl Crag, was that sidepull always that big?).
And does no-one ever see these people at work, surely they don't just come out at night? Don't be shy, go and tell them what they're doing is wrong.
Perhaps the BMC should run an anti-chipping campaign together with one of the magazines? We need a constant flow of editorial like that from John Horscroft (good effort January Climber). I know it's partly the search for more rock and trying to find the next great boulder problem, but chipping isn't going to get you the fame that you're after.
This isn't going to go away without more publicity, more awareness and more condemnation. It seems like every time I go bouldering thesedays you come across something dubious (Andy Brown's wall - Earl Crag, was that sidepull always that big?).
And does no-one ever see these people at work, surely they don't just come out at night? Don't be shy, go and tell them what they're doing is wrong.
In reply to Robert: Can't remember their names, cause they never introduced themselves, but there were a few experienced [old?] climbers at the rock talk picnic with wire brushes with scrapers attached, anyone know whome exactly?
But you have a point, lets take photo's of people we see with brushes and post these, should raise the temperature somewhat,
Of course I carry a brush cause I use it in my cellar at home, but I would never use it on grit, i mean of course I tried it on grit but it never worked, besides my friends will all back me up, oh yeah, and I'm famous.
Can't bloody wait!
But you have a point, lets take photo's of people we see with brushes and post these, should raise the temperature somewhat,
Of course I carry a brush cause I use it in my cellar at home, but I would never use it on grit, i mean of course I tried it on grit but it never worked, besides my friends will all back me up, oh yeah, and I'm famous.
Can't bloody wait!
In reply to Sloper:
It appears to be a very old, and non localized, 'tradition' of Boulder Boys. See John Shermans history of bouldering in America, Stone Crusade, for a photograph of the tools of the trade.
It appears to be a very old, and non localized, 'tradition' of Boulder Boys. See John Shermans history of bouldering in America, Stone Crusade, for a photograph of the tools of the trade.
In reply to Sloper:
The point is that an experienced climber might use a wire brush very, very carefully to clean a new route and not damage the rock, but this does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER but send the message out that it's accepted practice to wire brush grit.
If those people who actually need to brush lichen off new problems/routes just used plastic bristle brushes, then the inexperienced numbskulls who currently think it's the norm might think again. I can only imagine that there are people out there using wire brushes who think it's normal practice to tear off crystals and pebbles and ultimately destroy the skin of the rock.
Wire brushes need to be banned full stop in my opinion, the "if used with care" argument doesn't work because there are too many people now who don't give a s*it.
The point is that an experienced climber might use a wire brush very, very carefully to clean a new route and not damage the rock, but this does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER but send the message out that it's accepted practice to wire brush grit.
If those people who actually need to brush lichen off new problems/routes just used plastic bristle brushes, then the inexperienced numbskulls who currently think it's the norm might think again. I can only imagine that there are people out there using wire brushes who think it's normal practice to tear off crystals and pebbles and ultimately destroy the skin of the rock.
Wire brushes need to be banned full stop in my opinion, the "if used with care" argument doesn't work because there are too many people now who don't give a s*it.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor: Couldn't agree more.
In reply to Sloper:
Nor could I. Last time we had this argument brendontendon was saying he only had a little wire brush and only used it when appropriate. You might start by trying to persuade him.
While Ben H isn't looking, by the way, did Toy Boy (and Polyp Piece) always used to have those large red circles on it?
[actually I'm reliably informed that this wasn't Ben H but some less talented aspirant who subsequently failed]
Entirely agree the media need to deal with this more, print photos and slag those who do it. If necessary I'm sure they could get someone to stand in the photos with a logo.
Nor could I. Last time we had this argument brendontendon was saying he only had a little wire brush and only used it when appropriate. You might start by trying to persuade him.
While Ben H isn't looking, by the way, did Toy Boy (and Polyp Piece) always used to have those large red circles on it?
[actually I'm reliably informed that this wasn't Ben H but some less talented aspirant who subsequently failed]
Entirely agree the media need to deal with this more, print photos and slag those who do it. If necessary I'm sure they could get someone to stand in the photos with a logo.
In reply to Sloper: As Horscroft rightly points out it is alas climbing walls that encourage this treatment, as standard practice having failed to onsight the new problem at the wall is to attack it with wire brushes galore, bemoning whoever left it slippery - does only limited damage to resin holds, which can afterall be replaced, it just shouldn't be taken out of doors.
In reply to John Cox: Thats it then, camera at the ready, this means I'll have to master the art of scanning and posting pictures.
If you're one of the saddo's look out!
What do you mean stand in the pictures with a logo?
If you're one of the saddo's look out!
What do you mean stand in the pictures with a logo?
In reply to Sloper:
jeez, you'd have a field day up here in Scotland - wire brushes, spades, agent orange - all essential for a quiet days cragging
jeez, you'd have a field day up here in Scotland - wire brushes, spades, agent orange - all essential for a quiet days cragging
In reply to Sloper:
Do you suppose that sponsered climbers would still receive photo-incentive money (or gear) if the were pictured doing something bad whilst displaying the sponsors logo?
Do you suppose that sponsered climbers would still receive photo-incentive money (or gear) if the were pictured doing something bad whilst displaying the sponsors logo?
In reply to TimB: Didn't seem to do Ben Moon any harm when a pof [or mabey bag of chalk or deoderant] was clearly visible by his mat, did it?
In reply to Sloper:
I think that's an oversimplification really. There are plenty of sponsored climbers who would use a wire brush carefully and have no intention whatsoever of chipping. I really think that the chipping is a result of inexperienced people not understanding that they're doing permanent damage, who perceive that a wire brush is just part of the gear, along with chalk bag, bouldering mat etc and to pull a few pebbles off is okay.
If sponsored climbers said "on my new route I took the care to clean it without a wire brush because I'm aware of and concerned about the amount of over-brushing on established problems", then we might get somewhere.
The really sad thing is that it's just so totally at odds with what British bouldering and gritstone climbing is about. Since when have boulderers been interested in making problems easier? Isn't is all about missing out the holds...a harder eliminate...sticking a sit-down start on it. And Grit routes are the ultimate in sticking your neck out on 30' of rock. You don't go climbing on grit for a straightforward plod at whatever grade.
I think that's an oversimplification really. There are plenty of sponsored climbers who would use a wire brush carefully and have no intention whatsoever of chipping. I really think that the chipping is a result of inexperienced people not understanding that they're doing permanent damage, who perceive that a wire brush is just part of the gear, along with chalk bag, bouldering mat etc and to pull a few pebbles off is okay.
If sponsored climbers said "on my new route I took the care to clean it without a wire brush because I'm aware of and concerned about the amount of over-brushing on established problems", then we might get somewhere.
The really sad thing is that it's just so totally at odds with what British bouldering and gritstone climbing is about. Since when have boulderers been interested in making problems easier? Isn't is all about missing out the holds...a harder eliminate...sticking a sit-down start on it. And Grit routes are the ultimate in sticking your neck out on 30' of rock. You don't go climbing on grit for a straightforward plod at whatever grade.
In reply to Sloper:
and i guess all the impressionable (?) climbers in the peak now use pof?
just wondering if anyone thought about using pof before some folk started going on and on about it?
and i guess all the impressionable (?) climbers in the peak now use pof?
just wondering if anyone thought about using pof before some folk started going on and on about it?
In reply to gr:
Well, the footholds on the Sheep boulder at Burbage S were looking strangely dark n shiny last time i was there.
Not even the footholds on the thing with the pocket and crack, but the easy (B3? V2??) arete to the right.
I'm pretty sure they weren't poffed by anyone talented/famous/even remotely clever.
> and i guess all the impressionable (?) climbers in the peak now use pof?
Well, the footholds on the Sheep boulder at Burbage S were looking strangely dark n shiny last time i was there.
Not even the footholds on the thing with the pocket and crack, but the easy (B3? V2??) arete to the right.
I'm pretty sure they weren't poffed by anyone talented/famous/even remotely clever.
In reply to gr: pof ??
In reply to Anonymous: Ok the reference to pof was a bit of a wind up and the last thing I need is to get a reputation as a wind up merchant.
Impressionable climbers do follow the trends and those aspiring to great heights will sometimes use fair means and foul to get there. Talk to club runners about steroids and the like, its out there then people will [ab]use it.
Talk to many climbers who started in the 70's and 80's and many will tell you tales of using calcium rather than magnesium carbonate despite making it harder it was what livsey et al were doing, right?
The point is when brushing is so prevelant and wire brushing established problems so common people will adopt it even when they don't need to. To break the cycle will require something along the lines of the anti drink drive campaigns, i.e. make it socially unacceptable to be seen out with a wire brush.
Impressionable climbers do follow the trends and those aspiring to great heights will sometimes use fair means and foul to get there. Talk to club runners about steroids and the like, its out there then people will [ab]use it.
Talk to many climbers who started in the 70's and 80's and many will tell you tales of using calcium rather than magnesium carbonate despite making it harder it was what livsey et al were doing, right?
The point is when brushing is so prevelant and wire brushing established problems so common people will adopt it even when they don't need to. To break the cycle will require something along the lines of the anti drink drive campaigns, i.e. make it socially unacceptable to be seen out with a wire brush.
In reply to TimB:
well that's a damn shame if you are right. Are you sure its not 'just' resin from boot rubber?
Never having used the stuff - does pof really make THAT much difference to climbing ability on rough rock (like grit)? I'd have thought if grit is biting into your fingertips enough to leave them worn through after a days climbing, then applying resin to them is a bit of a waste of time.
well that's a damn shame if you are right. Are you sure its not 'just' resin from boot rubber?
Never having used the stuff - does pof really make THAT much difference to climbing ability on rough rock (like grit)? I'd have thought if grit is biting into your fingertips enough to leave them worn through after a days climbing, then applying resin to them is a bit of a waste of time.
In reply to gr: Just resin from boot rubber, what are you trying to cause an aneurysm?
How does the pof get onto the boots? From using a bloody pof thats how! [and don't tell me that drying your boots or holds with the tail of a pof doesn't deposit resin, if your pof is well used it certainly does].
And the amounts on your boots will be so small that it shouldn't leave a residue on the rock [even though it does improve friction] unless everyone is using it and the problem is popular, ahem, a bit like west side story!
How does the pof get onto the boots? From using a bloody pof thats how! [and don't tell me that drying your boots or holds with the tail of a pof doesn't deposit resin, if your pof is well used it certainly does].
And the amounts on your boots will be so small that it shouldn't leave a residue on the rock [even though it does improve friction] unless everyone is using it and the problem is popular, ahem, a bit like west side story!
In reply to Sloper:
trouble is some folk use so much chalk that it does need brushing off with soft toothbrush - though often it's possible to do a good enough job hitting the rock with a rag - but then that'd look like a pof rag wouldn't it!
As for wire brushing - all too often new probs do need scrubbing first don't they?
trouble is some folk use so much chalk that it does need brushing off with soft toothbrush - though often it's possible to do a good enough job hitting the rock with a rag - but then that'd look like a pof rag wouldn't it!
As for wire brushing - all too often new probs do need scrubbing first don't they?
In reply to Sloper: Sorry sloper, I agree with what you are saying, there is a fundamental problem in general with sports nowadays to "over succeed" by that I mean achieve more than you are capable of through natural development, at whatever the cost. trouble is people don't see this as cheating they see this as an acceptable (maybe the advent of running spikes caused debate at that time) training method.
Personally anyone who damages the enviroment is a complete git and should be flogged, trouble is I am not the law, it is not my rock, countryside or land.
This goes back to what I have said before, in that, if people are not prepared to educate people who are we to grumble. Slagging unknown people publically achieves nothing, nor does humiliating people who obviously dont give a damn. Education is the way but the problem is where to start?
Sorry got rambling on there a bit, my original question in total ignorance is what is pof?
TM
Personally anyone who damages the enviroment is a complete git and should be flogged, trouble is I am not the law, it is not my rock, countryside or land.
This goes back to what I have said before, in that, if people are not prepared to educate people who are we to grumble. Slagging unknown people publically achieves nothing, nor does humiliating people who obviously dont give a damn. Education is the way but the problem is where to start?
Sorry got rambling on there a bit, my original question in total ignorance is what is pof?
TM
In reply to gr:
What's effective is not really the point. This whole thread is about numpties who THINK that wire-brushing/poffing gritstone will somehow make them better climbers, possibly because leading climbers are seen to do these things.
Both of these things need to be stopped, but as said above it's something that needs to be done by example and by education.
I suppose the wire-brushing thing may be another instance of the fine line between cleaning and chipping.
- plastic brush removes chalk and loose lichen,
- wire brush used v. lightly very effectively removes lichen (maybe chalk too??)
- wire brush used a tiny bit more roughens rock and increases friction
etc.
What's effective is not really the point. This whole thread is about numpties who THINK that wire-brushing/poffing gritstone will somehow make them better climbers, possibly because leading climbers are seen to do these things.
Both of these things need to be stopped, but as said above it's something that needs to be done by example and by education.
I suppose the wire-brushing thing may be another instance of the fine line between cleaning and chipping.
- plastic brush removes chalk and loose lichen,
- wire brush used v. lightly very effectively removes lichen (maybe chalk too??)
- wire brush used a tiny bit more roughens rock and increases friction
etc.
In reply to gr: Come on mate,
We're not talking about using a tooth brush.
Using a rag looks nothing like using a pof, I could tell the difference when Jerry moffat and his mate had a pof with them on burbage west from the top of the Chant, just couldn't see what end they were using, and just before the usual things start to be said I did ask them if it was a pof and they said yes and then disappeared.
Problems can need scrubbing but I [may or may not have done a few new problems, and I've never resorted to a wire brush at all. If you don't believe me have a look at the exit of the definitive 5.12 at burbage north and then look at going left from the lip, 'the definitive V8' FA me! 1997 ish. No wire brush needed then or now.
We're not talking about using a tooth brush.
Using a rag looks nothing like using a pof, I could tell the difference when Jerry moffat and his mate had a pof with them on burbage west from the top of the Chant, just couldn't see what end they were using, and just before the usual things start to be said I did ask them if it was a pof and they said yes and then disappeared.
Problems can need scrubbing but I [may or may not have done a few new problems, and I've never resorted to a wire brush at all. If you don't believe me have a look at the exit of the definitive 5.12 at burbage north and then look at going left from the lip, 'the definitive V8' FA me! 1997 ish. No wire brush needed then or now.
In reply to TimB:
point taken bout pof.
as for wire brushing - a good old fashioned bristle brush gets rid of most all chalk and lichen - certainly enough to allow a new prob to be climbed.
point taken bout pof.
as for wire brushing - a good old fashioned bristle brush gets rid of most all chalk and lichen - certainly enough to allow a new prob to be climbed.
In reply to gr:
Education - starting at the top?
If anyone is reading this who has anything to do with
http://www.johnnydawes.com
could they consider using a photo on the front page other than one which APPEARS to feature a large wire brush?
cheers.
Education - starting at the top?
If anyone is reading this who has anything to do with
http://www.johnnydawes.com
could they consider using a photo on the front page other than one which APPEARS to feature a large wire brush?
cheers.
In reply to gr:
Not on Swift and Sure at Widdop matey.
After 3 months of zero sunshine Purgatory buttress is greener than some of the climbers on Rocktalk!
We brush it every spring with one of those wire brushes with the fine (brass?) bristles. I'd safely say the slab moves are imposible without brushing the shite off and the holds have not improved after years of brushing. This is because i know what i'm doing and don't need other climbers to tell me i'm doing something wrong.
Enty
Not on Swift and Sure at Widdop matey.
After 3 months of zero sunshine Purgatory buttress is greener than some of the climbers on Rocktalk!
We brush it every spring with one of those wire brushes with the fine (brass?) bristles. I'd safely say the slab moves are imposible without brushing the shite off and the holds have not improved after years of brushing. This is because i know what i'm doing and don't need other climbers to tell me i'm doing something wrong.
Enty
In reply to Enty:
like I said - bristle brushes do clean MOST stuff off - not everything! A lot of grit is like bloody concrete and laughs in the face of a wire brush. Perhaps your example shows that Yorkshire grit is HARDER than that softy stuff down the road in the peak!
like I said - bristle brushes do clean MOST stuff off - not everything! A lot of grit is like bloody concrete and laughs in the face of a wire brush. Perhaps your example shows that Yorkshire grit is HARDER than that softy stuff down the road in the peak!
In reply to gr:
My mate uses those suede brushes to brush new problems on grit, you know, those little ones with the gold-coloured bristles. These remove surface sand and lichen better then the stiffest plastic brush, but as soon as you've brushed all the loose off then it goes no further, apart from the fact that the brush itself starts to wear away! A good compromise?
My mate uses those suede brushes to brush new problems on grit, you know, those little ones with the gold-coloured bristles. These remove surface sand and lichen better then the stiffest plastic brush, but as soon as you've brushed all the loose off then it goes no further, apart from the fact that the brush itself starts to wear away! A good compromise?
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
Also to add to the chipped/over brushed category is an arete at Cratcliffe:
Rockfax peak bouldering guide, page 155, problem 13.
B8 The fine arete from a sitting start. B3 from standing. A foothold was chipped here but it has now crumbled away.
I tried this in the summer, and trashed my shin when my foot pinged off the crap smear. Went back the other day, and there's a nice 1/2cm wide foothold there again, making it at least a grade easier.
Very clever.
Also to add to the chipped/over brushed category is an arete at Cratcliffe:
Rockfax peak bouldering guide, page 155, problem 13.
B8 The fine arete from a sitting start. B3 from standing. A foothold was chipped here but it has now crumbled away.
I tried this in the summer, and trashed my shin when my foot pinged off the crap smear. Went back the other day, and there's a nice 1/2cm wide foothold there again, making it at least a grade easier.
Very clever.
In reply to brendonTendon: the top of ou est le spit has been brushed making a good hold and turning it in to a e4/5 6a.STOP BRUSHING
In reply to brendonTendon: Yeah, I noticed that too but thought, the foothold was the once that had supposed crumbled away, the problem is that the chip is right where you naturally put your foot.
Bbut surely this was done with a chisel or an orbital grinder!
Sad isn't it the more you get out and climb [and talk to people] the more you realise that this vile practice is increasing along with the popularity of bouldering.
Bbut surely this was done with a chisel or an orbital grinder!
Sad isn't it the more you get out and climb [and talk to people] the more you realise that this vile practice is increasing along with the popularity of bouldering.
In reply to John Cox:
(only just seen this after reading the rest of the thread...)
whoa! hold on there John. I know we don't agree on the issue of top-roping but please don't insinuate things in this way. I'm absolutely, 100% against chipping and think that anyone caught doing it should be, shall we say, politely taught the error of their ways.
I don't only boulder on grit, and often in obscure areas and on rock types where a wire brush is necessary in order to climb. Before people say that is bollocks, then you should have seen my old Wye Valley new routing kit, which included amongst other things several wire brushes, a machete, secateurs and all sorts of other paraphernalia. That's not a boast, the point I'm making is that different brushes are needed for different occasions.
I've only used my wire brush once this year on Peak Grit. There was a problem at the Roaches that was covered in thick green lichen and the wire brush was used very very gently in a circular motion to remove it. There was no damage to the rock at all from this and after that, we used big, soft bristled brushes and toothbrushes on the problem. On 99.9% of Peak grit bouldering, there is never any need for a wire brush.
I believe that there is a case for appropriate use but maybe what we're seeing here is people who think "I need a bouldering brush, what's the best thing for the job?", go down the hardware store and buy a wire brush without realising the harm that one can do to the rock - they need educating. In this forum, in guidebooks, the mags, and by their climbing peers. If I see someone going ape with a wire brush then I'll sure as hell have a word with them, no matter who they are, and so should everyone else.
I just hope it's not people who just don't give a sh*t and who are going to use one anyway.
(only just seen this after reading the rest of the thread...)
whoa! hold on there John. I know we don't agree on the issue of top-roping but please don't insinuate things in this way. I'm absolutely, 100% against chipping and think that anyone caught doing it should be, shall we say, politely taught the error of their ways.
I don't only boulder on grit, and often in obscure areas and on rock types where a wire brush is necessary in order to climb. Before people say that is bollocks, then you should have seen my old Wye Valley new routing kit, which included amongst other things several wire brushes, a machete, secateurs and all sorts of other paraphernalia. That's not a boast, the point I'm making is that different brushes are needed for different occasions.
I've only used my wire brush once this year on Peak Grit. There was a problem at the Roaches that was covered in thick green lichen and the wire brush was used very very gently in a circular motion to remove it. There was no damage to the rock at all from this and after that, we used big, soft bristled brushes and toothbrushes on the problem. On 99.9% of Peak grit bouldering, there is never any need for a wire brush.
I believe that there is a case for appropriate use but maybe what we're seeing here is people who think "I need a bouldering brush, what's the best thing for the job?", go down the hardware store and buy a wire brush without realising the harm that one can do to the rock - they need educating. In this forum, in guidebooks, the mags, and by their climbing peers. If I see someone going ape with a wire brush then I'll sure as hell have a word with them, no matter who they are, and so should everyone else.
I just hope it's not people who just don't give a sh*t and who are going to use one anyway.
In reply to Sloper:
yeah, a hammer and chisel job, by the looks of it - it's not just a brushed edge, it's a huge dish with a perfect flat bottom to it.
yeah, a hammer and chisel job, by the looks of it - it's not just a brushed edge, it's a huge dish with a perfect flat bottom to it.
In reply to brendonTendon:
I'm going to put a link to bouldering.net's "no chipping" campaign on ukbouldering.com.
ukclimbing/rockfax people - how about a link from these sites too?
I'm going to put a link to bouldering.net's "no chipping" campaign on ukbouldering.com.
ukclimbing/rockfax people - how about a link from these sites too?
In reply to brendonTendon: Looks like the chipper knew to cover it in cow shit to make it look older too! [by the way a stone mason told me that not a vile chipper!]
Anyway, finally finished at work, down the pub, then a whole week of decorating at home [well unless the conditiones are good, shh she'll forgive me, let it be clear skies!
Happy new year, here's to getting flexible!
Anyway, finally finished at work, down the pub, then a whole week of decorating at home [well unless the conditiones are good, shh she'll forgive me, let it be clear skies!
Happy new year, here's to getting flexible!
In reply to Sloper:
>.. this vile practice is increasing along with the popularity of bouldering.
The popularity just makes it more widespread and obvious.
It also brings with it an increase in other (more/less) environmental concerns such as the erosion (by feet in cases) of the ground below boulders, unsightly white marks, litter, the disturbance of endangered birds habitats, and the discordant beat of a ghetto blaster. You can rank their importance.
>.. this vile practice is increasing along with the popularity of bouldering.
The popularity just makes it more widespread and obvious.
It also brings with it an increase in other (more/less) environmental concerns such as the erosion (by feet in cases) of the ground below boulders, unsightly white marks, litter, the disturbance of endangered birds habitats, and the discordant beat of a ghetto blaster. You can rank their importance.
In reply to Sloper: It looks like the nose at burbage west has been wire-brushed recently, i suppose to clean already-very-clean holds, like holds that aren't even used on the problem. Some of the holds now look a bit scratched with yellow bits, like some big crystals got torn off. Nice one morons.....
ALso that bad brushing near the unconquerables had been there for ages, sadly.
ALso that bad brushing near the unconquerables had been there for ages, sadly.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
I'm not sure if I'm being anti-elitist here, but I (and most of the people I climb with) are probably what you think would think of as bumblies - we're damned pleased if we scrape up anything vaguely hard (read E1 as hard) but I have this year led almost every route on-sight, ground up etc etc without any cleaning etc etc. We do routes when we and the rock are in condition and don't do it if we aren't up to it. I just don't get it. And we aren't truly competetive in that we are all pleased when someone does something hard (for them). To me, climbing is all about testing myself against the rock and my own limits, "changing" the rock is completely pointless. Is it only the pressure that "players" (eg. pro's and even v good weekend climbers) feel that drives them to this? Sad sad people.
I'm not sure if I'm being anti-elitist here, but I (and most of the people I climb with) are probably what you think would think of as bumblies - we're damned pleased if we scrape up anything vaguely hard (read E1 as hard) but I have this year led almost every route on-sight, ground up etc etc without any cleaning etc etc. We do routes when we and the rock are in condition and don't do it if we aren't up to it. I just don't get it. And we aren't truly competetive in that we are all pleased when someone does something hard (for them). To me, climbing is all about testing myself against the rock and my own limits, "changing" the rock is completely pointless. Is it only the pressure that "players" (eg. pro's and even v good weekend climbers) feel that drives them to this? Sad sad people.
In reply to JonC1:
I agree completely about doing what you can, the problem seems to be that a minority of willy wavers want to do things that are too hard for them so they toprope them several times till they have learnt all the moves.
The same thing happens with chalk, what is it that people use it on a cold day when your skin is so dry it splits?
I SPIT on my hands to improve the grip then not use chalk.
We met some beginners on Stanage End one day and after fastening the harness on and then the top rope they tied a chalk bag on him. After all it WAS a diff!
I agree completely about doing what you can, the problem seems to be that a minority of willy wavers want to do things that are too hard for them so they toprope them several times till they have learnt all the moves.
The same thing happens with chalk, what is it that people use it on a cold day when your skin is so dry it splits?
I SPIT on my hands to improve the grip then not use chalk.
We met some beginners on Stanage End one day and after fastening the harness on and then the top rope they tied a chalk bag on him. After all it WAS a diff!
In reply to JonC1:
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here, is there some sort of inverted snobbery going on here whereby because you don't climb what you consider to be hard then you are morally superior to those that do. The whole chipping thing affects many climbs regardless of grade, in fact bringing up the issue of what grade you climb is totally spurious. I don't know who chips but the kind of retro chipping that is appearing in the peak will not be the work of the 'players'.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here, is there some sort of inverted snobbery going on here whereby because you don't climb what you consider to be hard then you are morally superior to those that do. The whole chipping thing affects many climbs regardless of grade, in fact bringing up the issue of what grade you climb is totally spurious. I don't know who chips but the kind of retro chipping that is appearing in the peak will not be the work of the 'players'.
In reply to Tyler:
In my defence, I was suggesting that I might be guilty of inverted (grade) snobbery. However, I was sort of serious. I fail to see why anyone climbing at my level would resort to chipping - whereas I can actually see why those climbing at higher levels might want to do so (obviously I completely disagree but can see why they might do so).
My point, I suppose, is that perhaps those who feel pressure from sponsors or from "friends" are more likely to chip rock. those of us just bumbling along have no real need/pressure to kid anyone (including ourselves).
You say that grade is irrelevant - I disagree - it is probably highly relevant to those involved.
In my defence, I was suggesting that I might be guilty of inverted (grade) snobbery. However, I was sort of serious. I fail to see why anyone climbing at my level would resort to chipping - whereas I can actually see why those climbing at higher levels might want to do so (obviously I completely disagree but can see why they might do so).
My point, I suppose, is that perhaps those who feel pressure from sponsors or from "friends" are more likely to chip rock. those of us just bumbling along have no real need/pressure to kid anyone (including ourselves).
You say that grade is irrelevant - I disagree - it is probably highly relevant to those involved.
I don't think how hard somebody climbs has a lot to do with it - it's a question of respect for the rock.
I see the point that sponsored climbers might be pressured into chipping to get results, but I don't think it really happens.
Suppose career minded climber chips climb x to get his/her ascent pics in the mags. Soon after that, everyone sees that the route/problem has been chipped and that immediately throws their ascent into doubt. Not good publicity, unless of course any publicity is better than none.
In reply to JonC1:
I guess the problem with this is that we don't know who we are talking about when we talk about chipping so its hard to guess at the motivation of the chippers. Sure, there are a number of well publicised cases where high profile climbers have chipped holds on new routes. However there seems to be a spate of chipping recently (Newstones etc.) that has taken place on established routes. This I see as a bigger problem, and this is what I was talking about when I said the ability of the climbers is irrelevant - it just seems to be indeterminate vandalism.
I guess the problem with this is that we don't know who we are talking about when we talk about chipping so its hard to guess at the motivation of the chippers. Sure, there are a number of well publicised cases where high profile climbers have chipped holds on new routes. However there seems to be a spate of chipping recently (Newstones etc.) that has taken place on established routes. This I see as a bigger problem, and this is what I was talking about when I said the ability of the climbers is irrelevant - it just seems to be indeterminate vandalism.
In reply to Tyler: " However there seems to be a spate of chipping recently (Newstones etc.) "
No NEWSTONES has not been chipped it is just younger rock and therefore it is softer.It was showing sighns of wear 5+ years ago,but now bouldering has got huge since then and is worn alot faster.please believe me i know the crag and it has not been chipped,i have seen the hold(s) slowly get worse.
But the problem at stanage is fowl play! You BAST*RDS.
No NEWSTONES has not been chipped it is just younger rock and therefore it is softer.It was showing sighns of wear 5+ years ago,but now bouldering has got huge since then and is worn alot faster.please believe me i know the crag and it has not been chipped,i have seen the hold(s) slowly get worse.
But the problem at stanage is fowl play! You BAST*RDS.
In reply to justin critchlow:
"But the problem at stanage is fowl play! You BAST*RDS."
No that's Burbage North:
"Definitely a low class edge; they lack style; they look as if hens had been over them" - Patrick Monkhouse, 1932
Sorry, hugely serious issue, but couldn't resist.
"But the problem at stanage is fowl play! You BAST*RDS."
No that's Burbage North:
"Definitely a low class edge; they lack style; they look as if hens had been over them" - Patrick Monkhouse, 1932
Sorry, hugely serious issue, but couldn't resist.
In reply to brendontendon and enty:
I don't think this line that of course irresponsible wire brushing is terrible but it's OK when I do it because I know what I'm doing is sustainable. Everybody thinks what they're doing is OK. I don't know who's doing this - personally I don't know anyone who even owns a wire brush - but I do know that all of us setting a good example is at least part of what's required.
In reply to JonC, go and do Manchester Buttress at Stanage, examine the enormous chip on the ledge you get on to half-way up, and then come back and say this is a higher-grade problem. It isn't.
I don't think this line that of course irresponsible wire brushing is terrible but it's OK when I do it because I know what I'm doing is sustainable. Everybody thinks what they're doing is OK. I don't know who's doing this - personally I don't know anyone who even owns a wire brush - but I do know that all of us setting a good example is at least part of what's required.
In reply to JonC, go and do Manchester Buttress at Stanage, examine the enormous chip on the ledge you get on to half-way up, and then come back and say this is a higher-grade problem. It isn't.
In reply to brendontendon and enty:
I don't think this line that of course irresponsible wire brushing is terrible but it's OK when I do it because I know what I'm doing is sustainable. Everybody thinks what they're doing is OK. I don't know who's doing this - personally I don't know anyone who even owns a wire brush - but I do know that all of us setting a good example is at least part of what's required.
In reply to JonC, go and do Manchester Buttress at Stanage, examine the enormous chip on the ledge you get on to half-way up, and then come back and say this is a higher-grade problem. It isn't.
I don't think this line that of course irresponsible wire brushing is terrible but it's OK when I do it because I know what I'm doing is sustainable. Everybody thinks what they're doing is OK. I don't know who's doing this - personally I don't know anyone who even owns a wire brush - but I do know that all of us setting a good example is at least part of what's required.
In reply to JonC, go and do Manchester Buttress at Stanage, examine the enormous chip on the ledge you get on to half-way up, and then come back and say this is a higher-grade problem. It isn't.
In reply to brendontendon and enty:
I don't think this line that of course irresponsible wire brushing is terrible but it's OK when I do it because I know what I'm doing is sustainable. Everybody thinks what they're doing is OK. I don't know who's doing this - personally I don't know anyone who even owns a wire brush - but I do know that all of us setting a good example is at least part of what's required.
In reply to JonC, go and do Manchester Buttress at Stanage, examine the enormous chip on the ledge you get on to half-way up, and then come back and say this is a higher-grade problem. It isn't.
I don't think this line that of course irresponsible wire brushing is terrible but it's OK when I do it because I know what I'm doing is sustainable. Everybody thinks what they're doing is OK. I don't know who's doing this - personally I don't know anyone who even owns a wire brush - but I do know that all of us setting a good example is at least part of what's required.
In reply to JonC, go and do Manchester Buttress at Stanage, examine the enormous chip on the ledge you get on to half-way up, and then come back and say this is a higher-grade problem. It isn't.
In reply to John Cox at home:
I have a wire brush and i use it. It is not a crime to use one as some things really do need a LIGHT brushing.But that is as far as it goes for me.I am very carefull on the brush side of things.
I think the new guides should really make this point clear as most things,taking into consideration how popular climbing has become,DONT need to be brushed as they see enough traffic.
I have a wire brush and i use it. It is not a crime to use one as some things really do need a LIGHT brushing.But that is as far as it goes for me.I am very carefull on the brush side of things.
I think the new guides should really make this point clear as most things,taking into consideration how popular climbing has become,DONT need to be brushed as they see enough traffic.
In reply to John Cox at home:
I have a wire brush and i use it. It is not a crime to use one as some things really do need a LIGHT brushing.But that is as far as it goes for me.I am very carefull on the brush side of things.
I think the new guides should really make this point clear as most things,taking into consideration how popular climbing has become,DONT need to be brushed as they see enough traffic.
I have a wire brush and i use it. It is not a crime to use one as some things really do need a LIGHT brushing.But that is as far as it goes for me.I am very carefull on the brush side of things.
I think the new guides should really make this point clear as most things,taking into consideration how popular climbing has become,DONT need to be brushed as they see enough traffic.
In reply to justin critchlow:
You're missing the point. Yes, of course some things do need a light brushing and doing so with a wire brush isn't a crime, if done carefully. But the very practice of using wire brushes is obviously sending out the message to ignorant and seemingly inexperienced climbers that it is the norm - irrespective of whether a hold could do with a bit of brushing.
It might be harder work to just use a plastic brush, but if that became the collective norm and wire brushes weren't seen as acceptable AT ALL AND UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES ON GRIT, then perhaps we could all contribute to stamping out this alarming trend.
You're missing the point. Yes, of course some things do need a light brushing and doing so with a wire brush isn't a crime, if done carefully. But the very practice of using wire brushes is obviously sending out the message to ignorant and seemingly inexperienced climbers that it is the norm - irrespective of whether a hold could do with a bit of brushing.
It might be harder work to just use a plastic brush, but if that became the collective norm and wire brushes weren't seen as acceptable AT ALL AND UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES ON GRIT, then perhaps we could all contribute to stamping out this alarming trend.
In reply to sutty:
What is with all this stuff recently going on about people top roping routes? What on earth is wrong with top roping a route (of any grade) if you personally find it too hard to lead? As long as you realise the difference between having top roping onsighting and leading after a top-rope, and don't lie about which you have done, then what is the problem?
There are a lot of attitudes like this in climbing. it's a shame for a sport that is about personal challenge.
As for even thinking that is in any way the same as chipping etc, come on! The difference is in weather you are ruining the route for someone else or not.
What is with all this stuff recently going on about people top roping routes? What on earth is wrong with top roping a route (of any grade) if you personally find it too hard to lead? As long as you realise the difference between having top roping onsighting and leading after a top-rope, and don't lie about which you have done, then what is the problem?
There are a lot of attitudes like this in climbing. it's a shame for a sport that is about personal challenge.
As for even thinking that is in any way the same as chipping etc, come on! The difference is in weather you are ruining the route for someone else or not.
In reply to Anonymous:
Manchester Buttress, sounds higher grade to me - doesn't the H in HS stand for "hard"? I was talking about E grades - as in E for Easy, M for Mod etc
Manchester Buttress, sounds higher grade to me - doesn't the H in HS stand for "hard"? I was talking about E grades - as in E for Easy, M for Mod etc
In reply to Anonymous:
Agreed.
> (In reply to sutty)
>
> What is with all this stuff recently going on about people top roping routes? What on earth is wrong with top roping a route (of any grade) if you personally find it too hard to lead? As long as you realise the difference between having top roping onsighting and leading after a top-rope, and don't lie about which you have done, then what is the problem?
>
> There are a lot of attitudes like this in climbing. it's a shame for a sport that is about personal challenge.
>
> As for even thinking that is in any way the same as chipping etc, come on! The difference is in weather you are ruining the route for someone else or not.
>
> What is with all this stuff recently going on about people top roping routes? What on earth is wrong with top roping a route (of any grade) if you personally find it too hard to lead? As long as you realise the difference between having top roping onsighting and leading after a top-rope, and don't lie about which you have done, then what is the problem?
>
> There are a lot of attitudes like this in climbing. it's a shame for a sport that is about personal challenge.
>
> As for even thinking that is in any way the same as chipping etc, come on! The difference is in weather you are ruining the route for someone else or not.
Agreed.
In reply to anonymous and South Devon Rock Hugger:
Sorry. Can't be bothered. See previous posts. And, if you're from South Devon, come see what we're talking about in the Peak before you sound off.
Your last sentence is particularly unbright, though. Did John Redhead ruin Manic Strain for everyone? Or the French La Rose et le Vampire?
Life is subtler than you think, indeed, probably, to misquote someone (JSB Haldane possibly?), subtler than you can think.
Sorry. Can't be bothered. See previous posts. And, if you're from South Devon, come see what we're talking about in the Peak before you sound off.
Your last sentence is particularly unbright, though. Did John Redhead ruin Manic Strain for everyone? Or the French La Rose et le Vampire?
Life is subtler than you think, indeed, probably, to misquote someone (JSB Haldane possibly?), subtler than you can think.
In reply to everybody: keep bringing this issue up, people obviously need educating.
On the subject of egos: I know of one person who grumbled to the staff and got a hold turned into a jug at a wall, because they were finding the route hard. They claimed the hold had spun. It hadn't, I know the route setter. It wasn't a hard route.....the problem affects all levels of competance. Some people are in to self-delusion.
I will look out for idiots with wire brushes. Any suggestion for what to say if they maintain they are using them carefully? I suppose just that it's sending outthe wrong message?
On the subject of egos: I know of one person who grumbled to the staff and got a hold turned into a jug at a wall, because they were finding the route hard. They claimed the hold had spun. It hadn't, I know the route setter. It wasn't a hard route.....the problem affects all levels of competance. Some people are in to self-delusion.
I will look out for idiots with wire brushes. Any suggestion for what to say if they maintain they are using them carefully? I suppose just that it's sending outthe wrong message?
In reply to JohnCoxathome:
Sorry. Can't be bothered. See previous posts. And, if you're from South Devon, come see what we're talking about in the Peak before you sound off.
Eh? Sounding off? What exactly are you talking about?
Your last sentence is particularly unbright, though. Did John Redhead ruin Manic Strain for everyone? Or the French La Rose et le Vampire?
You're confusing two different things - someone chipping an existing problem so that they can do it, and artificial routes created where it's assumed that the rock is otherwise unclimbable.
In future, think before you post.
Sorry. Can't be bothered. See previous posts. And, if you're from South Devon, come see what we're talking about in the Peak before you sound off.
Eh? Sounding off? What exactly are you talking about?
Your last sentence is particularly unbright, though. Did John Redhead ruin Manic Strain for everyone? Or the French La Rose et le Vampire?
You're confusing two different things - someone chipping an existing problem so that they can do it, and artificial routes created where it's assumed that the rock is otherwise unclimbable.
In future, think before you post.
In reply to South Devon Rock Hugger:
Chipping is shit, full stop. If I catch someone doing it I am as likely as not to take a brick to their head. As pointed out the rock is natural and leaves a challenge to be climbed. If you can't climb it train harder or leave it alone, because if the wrong person catches you at it you might just end up with some chips being taken out of you!
Chipping is shit, full stop. If I catch someone doing it I am as likely as not to take a brick to their head. As pointed out the rock is natural and leaves a challenge to be climbed. If you can't climb it train harder or leave it alone, because if the wrong person catches you at it you might just end up with some chips being taken out of you!
In reply to Billy the Kid: spot on mate - who ever chipped Rose et la vampire probably robbed future generations of a classic 10b route, just out of pure greed. Who the hell wants to climb some manufactured contrivance???? not me - its just like indoor climbing outdoors - whats the point? If you ask me the french have got more rock than is good for them.
In reply to Billy the Kid:
That's just it though, I don't believe it's a few people who don't realise what they're doing as then some of us would've seen them given how busy the crags are and the popularity of the problems that've suffered. I think they only do it when they're on their own, mid week or something.
Tom's is the best idea to tackle it, I can only think of
sticking web cams on the 'at risk' problems which would protect them (noone's gonna brush in front of the net), or having a BMC wire brush, chisel and poff amnesty, with signs everywhere. I can only see that a Lynch mob, much as I'm inclined to join it, would only make the perpetrators even more careful not to get caught.
That's just it though, I don't believe it's a few people who don't realise what they're doing as then some of us would've seen them given how busy the crags are and the popularity of the problems that've suffered. I think they only do it when they're on their own, mid week or something.
Tom's is the best idea to tackle it, I can only think of
sticking web cams on the 'at risk' problems which would protect them (noone's gonna brush in front of the net), or having a BMC wire brush, chisel and poff amnesty, with signs everywhere. I can only see that a Lynch mob, much as I'm inclined to join it, would only make the perpetrators even more careful not to get caught.
In reply to Dave:
When La Rose et le Vampire was chipped, it was considered 'OK', and many such routes were put up in France.
I don't think that there are many climbers that would consider this ethical, or acceptable, nowadays.
I think now's the time to pass a 'kneecapping of chippers' law.
When La Rose et le Vampire was chipped, it was considered 'OK', and many such routes were put up in France.
I don't think that there are many climbers that would consider this ethical, or acceptable, nowadays.
I think now's the time to pass a 'kneecapping of chippers' law.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
One soft bristle toothbrush and one eager climber (strong arms)
One hard bristle toothbrush and one eager climber (thin arms)
One long bristle plastic brush and one eager climber (thick head)
One short bristle plastic brush and one eager climber (budding rock jock)
One yard brush and one eager climber (frustrated rock jock)
One worn wire brush and one eager climber (with morals)
One new wire brush and one eager climber (no morals)
and force applied by rock boots
All of the above repeatedly applied to any rock will effect a negative impact on the quality of the surface i.e. it will wear. We need to recognise that the rocks are suffering from wear as a result of increased use, unsustainable uses such as brushing, ultimately will cause a deterioration in the rock surface.
I've finished now
One soft bristle toothbrush and one eager climber (strong arms)
One hard bristle toothbrush and one eager climber (thin arms)
One long bristle plastic brush and one eager climber (thick head)
One short bristle plastic brush and one eager climber (budding rock jock)
One yard brush and one eager climber (frustrated rock jock)
One worn wire brush and one eager climber (with morals)
One new wire brush and one eager climber (no morals)
and force applied by rock boots
All of the above repeatedly applied to any rock will effect a negative impact on the quality of the surface i.e. it will wear. We need to recognise that the rocks are suffering from wear as a result of increased use, unsustainable uses such as brushing, ultimately will cause a deterioration in the rock surface.
I've finished now
In reply to cliff richard:
If you are trying to say that any kind of use of the crags and boulders is damaging to the rock, it doesn't really get us anywhere does it?
No-one is proposing that we give up climbing because of the damage that it does, however careful you are. This issue is to do with wire brushes and their increased use on gritstone.
You can bang on all day about careful use and 'anything in the wrong hands might cause damage', but the fact is that wire brushes have somewhere along the line become a common bit of kit and this in itself needs to be addressed. Not whether everyone who uses one is using it carefully, but why have they got it in the first place, is it really necessary to have it and would it be a good thing if the climbing community as a whole said 'no' to wire brushes on grit?
This would include avid new routers and climbers pushing the limits on grit's last great problems. If they are seen to be against the use of wire brushes, then perhaps little Jonny Boulderer will decide that he doesn't need to pack one along with his finger tape, toothbrush and bouldering mat when he goes searching for fame and glory with a first ascent of the next V6.
If you are trying to say that any kind of use of the crags and boulders is damaging to the rock, it doesn't really get us anywhere does it?
No-one is proposing that we give up climbing because of the damage that it does, however careful you are. This issue is to do with wire brushes and their increased use on gritstone.
You can bang on all day about careful use and 'anything in the wrong hands might cause damage', but the fact is that wire brushes have somewhere along the line become a common bit of kit and this in itself needs to be addressed. Not whether everyone who uses one is using it carefully, but why have they got it in the first place, is it really necessary to have it and would it be a good thing if the climbing community as a whole said 'no' to wire brushes on grit?
This would include avid new routers and climbers pushing the limits on grit's last great problems. If they are seen to be against the use of wire brushes, then perhaps little Jonny Boulderer will decide that he doesn't need to pack one along with his finger tape, toothbrush and bouldering mat when he goes searching for fame and glory with a first ascent of the next V6.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
Never mind the wire brushes what about the tooth brushes?
Standing watching some people bouldering last autumn ther was a vigorous brushing of the holds to remove the chalk and then,
dip the hand in the chalk bag and coat it all over again. Why not just use the chalk that is there already? I come home with white hands and I don't possess a chalk bag .
Why not carry a small softhaired paint brush to dust the surplus off, kinder to the rock.
Never mind the wire brushes what about the tooth brushes?
Standing watching some people bouldering last autumn ther was a vigorous brushing of the holds to remove the chalk and then,
dip the hand in the chalk bag and coat it all over again. Why not just use the chalk that is there already? I come home with white hands and I don't possess a chalk bag .
Why not carry a small softhaired paint brush to dust the surplus off, kinder to the rock.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
I question the need for chalk at all on Grit.
I question the need for chalk at all on Grit.
In reply to Billy the Kid:
I try not to use much either if I remember, but some people do sweat buckets more than me.
I try not to use much either if I remember, but some people do sweat buckets more than me.
In reply to sutty: i don't think it matters if people brush the existing chalk off and then put their own on as long as they make an effort to brush it all off when they've finished.
Which gets me onto another point - lets stop using loose chalk outdoors. (stop fuming - heres why..) firstly it almost always leaves you with far too much chalk on your hands, especially in cold winter months. This chalk surplus ends up either all over the problem (i've seen chalk layed so think you could see the climbers fingerprints), or it gets blown off the fingers just before you climb, which leaves it all over the floor.
Secondly it encourages excessive tickmarking - the number of time i've seen people pull out a big chunk of chalk and crumble it over the rock creating a thick 1/2 inch wide mark next to an easily visible hold its madness. I once went to curbar to find every hold on the trackside boulder had a 6inch tick mark, frankly it was obscene. A subtle puff of chalk from a chalkball it much more discrete, and also brushes off easier cos the chalk isn't forced into the grit texture. Lets try and cut down on unnessesary chalk mess at the crag.
Which gets me onto another point - lets stop using loose chalk outdoors. (stop fuming - heres why..) firstly it almost always leaves you with far too much chalk on your hands, especially in cold winter months. This chalk surplus ends up either all over the problem (i've seen chalk layed so think you could see the climbers fingerprints), or it gets blown off the fingers just before you climb, which leaves it all over the floor.
Secondly it encourages excessive tickmarking - the number of time i've seen people pull out a big chunk of chalk and crumble it over the rock creating a thick 1/2 inch wide mark next to an easily visible hold its madness. I once went to curbar to find every hold on the trackside boulder had a 6inch tick mark, frankly it was obscene. A subtle puff of chalk from a chalkball it much more discrete, and also brushes off easier cos the chalk isn't forced into the grit texture. Lets try and cut down on unnessesary chalk mess at the crag.
In reply to brendonTendon:
"On 99.9% of Peak grit bouldering, there is never any need for a wire brush."
In which case why not abandon the 0.1% until you are good enough to climb them with the lichen left by a plastic brush. I've said before I think wire brushes should be banned completely on grit (like bolts and new pegs) as it might save grit problems for the next generations. Even V0- problems without lichen (esp Burbage South) are getting wire brushed now.
"you should have seen my old Wye Valley new routing kit, which included amongst other things several wire brushes, a machete, secateurs and all sorts of other paraphernalia."
You really do need to speak to a botanist: this sort of attitude is what leads to access problems on some crags.
Another enviromental point not mentioned here is the fact that lichen is increasing as our air gets cleaner; so on regularly green problems you're fighting a loosing battle in any case.
"On 99.9% of Peak grit bouldering, there is never any need for a wire brush."
In which case why not abandon the 0.1% until you are good enough to climb them with the lichen left by a plastic brush. I've said before I think wire brushes should be banned completely on grit (like bolts and new pegs) as it might save grit problems for the next generations. Even V0- problems without lichen (esp Burbage South) are getting wire brushed now.
"you should have seen my old Wye Valley new routing kit, which included amongst other things several wire brushes, a machete, secateurs and all sorts of other paraphernalia."
You really do need to speak to a botanist: this sort of attitude is what leads to access problems on some crags.
Another enviromental point not mentioned here is the fact that lichen is increasing as our air gets cleaner; so on regularly green problems you're fighting a loosing battle in any case.
In reply to Steve C: There is a fundemental problem here with the wire versus plastic brush debate. I know the person responsible for said ugly brushing on fear and loathing boulder, and this eyesaw was created with a PLASTIC BRUSH. I can hear your gasps of shock and disbelief from here and all i can say is, if you think i'm lying take your plastic scrubbing brush there and try for yourself (i'm not trying to encourage more damage to this boulder but the alternative is take me on trust). This ilustrates the point that a blanket ban on wire brushes would be heavy handed as damage caused is entirely dependant on the nature of the dirt; the colour and nature of the rock beneath and the proximity of a brushed hold to the ground (rising damp seems to be a problem in some areas eg the b7 arete at higgar east and bits of bridestones).
Also how much damage attributed to brushing is caused by everyday boot damage. Should all brushing be banned because of the fear and loathing boulder? Or should we be thinking about ways to restore some solidity to crumbling holds before they get worse, i'snt their some kind of clear resin used on southern sandstone which may help?
For the record i suport the careful use of wire brushes on new climbs where the rock is not suseptible to damage and the use wouldn't leave conspicuous and ugly marking.
Also how much damage attributed to brushing is caused by everyday boot damage. Should all brushing be banned because of the fear and loathing boulder? Or should we be thinking about ways to restore some solidity to crumbling holds before they get worse, i'snt their some kind of clear resin used on southern sandstone which may help?
For the record i suport the careful use of wire brushes on new climbs where the rock is not suseptible to damage and the use wouldn't leave conspicuous and ugly marking.
In reply to markk: my previous reply has been lost in the ether, so here goes again.
Sorry mate, but I don't believe that the damage [chipping] was caused by a nylon or plastic brush, there were visible groves int he rock. Wh not name the person and let them explain how the caused this damage. I cleaned one of the chipped problems with a nylon brush and did no such damage.
Do you think the brushing is acceptable?
Without being to confrontational, moi?, the rest of your post is errant nonsense.
Boot damage confused as brushing damage, only by the visulaly impaired or the terminally stupid.
IS chipping ok if the rock is hard, of course not.
Unless the rock is soft per se grit does nto crumble and the suggestion if 'reinforcing' it with resin, pof bychance, so idiots can scrub away with wire bruses beggars belief.
Sorry mate, but I don't believe that the damage [chipping] was caused by a nylon or plastic brush, there were visible groves int he rock. Wh not name the person and let them explain how the caused this damage. I cleaned one of the chipped problems with a nylon brush and did no such damage.
Do you think the brushing is acceptable?
Without being to confrontational, moi?, the rest of your post is errant nonsense.
Boot damage confused as brushing damage, only by the visulaly impaired or the terminally stupid.
IS chipping ok if the rock is hard, of course not.
Unless the rock is soft per se grit does nto crumble and the suggestion if 'reinforcing' it with resin, pof bychance, so idiots can scrub away with wire bruses beggars belief.
In reply to Steve C:
In which case why not abandon the 0.1% until you are good enough to climb them with the lichen left by a plastic brush
because, as I'm not damaging the rock, why should I?
You really do need to speak to a botanist: this sort of attitude is what leads to access problems on some crags
oh really? So what do you know about the wildlife/access situations in the wye valley? half the valley is already banned for environmental reasons, and those bans are stuck to, despite us finding lots and lots of great unclimbed rock down there. Nothing wrong with cleaning new lines on established crags I'm afraid, so don't try to create a problem where there isn't one.
In which case why not abandon the 0.1% until you are good enough to climb them with the lichen left by a plastic brush
because, as I'm not damaging the rock, why should I?
You really do need to speak to a botanist: this sort of attitude is what leads to access problems on some crags
oh really? So what do you know about the wildlife/access situations in the wye valley? half the valley is already banned for environmental reasons, and those bans are stuck to, despite us finding lots and lots of great unclimbed rock down there. Nothing wrong with cleaning new lines on established crags I'm afraid, so don't try to create a problem where there isn't one.
In reply to brendonTendon:
Thank you for the balanced reply.
If you think you are not damaging the rock using a wire brush (even carefully) I'm afraid you are deluded. If you dont care that you are then you are ignorant.
I didnt mind so much in the past about all sorts of nefarious practices but as I grew up i began to see consequences. Lots of boulder problems in the peak are permanently ruined or badly scarred. In other European countries access has been lost on many crags because enviromentalists and others got annoyed with climbers 'selfishness' and pulled political strings to get a ban; call me paranoid but I see similar situations arriving soon in the UK on many important crags.
What I'd like to hear from young talented climbers like yourself are statements like "dont use a brush...get better" if not that then "never use a brush unless you really, really have too" (which to be fair is not so far from what you said) and on the Wye valley point "don't remove vegetaion unless you need to and only then if you are sure its not botanically important" (just because there is no ban doesnt mean that restraint should disappear).
Thank you for the balanced reply.
If you think you are not damaging the rock using a wire brush (even carefully) I'm afraid you are deluded. If you dont care that you are then you are ignorant.
I didnt mind so much in the past about all sorts of nefarious practices but as I grew up i began to see consequences. Lots of boulder problems in the peak are permanently ruined or badly scarred. In other European countries access has been lost on many crags because enviromentalists and others got annoyed with climbers 'selfishness' and pulled political strings to get a ban; call me paranoid but I see similar situations arriving soon in the UK on many important crags.
What I'd like to hear from young talented climbers like yourself are statements like "dont use a brush...get better" if not that then "never use a brush unless you really, really have too" (which to be fair is not so far from what you said) and on the Wye valley point "don't remove vegetaion unless you need to and only then if you are sure its not botanically important" (just because there is no ban doesnt mean that restraint should disappear).
In reply to Steve C:
If you think you are not damaging the rock using a wire brush (even carefully) I'm afraid you are deluded
Sorry, but I don't agree - I don't think careful use does damage the rock. Wire brushes have been used sensibly for years without problems, but unfortunately the few have always abused them. Overbrushing isn't anything new.
People who don't respect the rock and who overbrush aren't going to give a sh*t about a "brush ban", and anyway, how is it going to be enforced? Just like in many other areas of life, e.g. drugs/alcohol/etc, banning something doesn't prevent usage at all - the answer is education. If part of that education is "you don't really need a wire brush on grit because it damages the rock" then that's fine, but bans are a step backwards. Why? Because it means that people will just do it on the sly, when nobody's about to see. Better to educate and let peer pressure do it's work.
young? talented? Naaah, not me mate
If you think you are not damaging the rock using a wire brush (even carefully) I'm afraid you are deluded
Sorry, but I don't agree - I don't think careful use does damage the rock. Wire brushes have been used sensibly for years without problems, but unfortunately the few have always abused them. Overbrushing isn't anything new.
People who don't respect the rock and who overbrush aren't going to give a sh*t about a "brush ban", and anyway, how is it going to be enforced? Just like in many other areas of life, e.g. drugs/alcohol/etc, banning something doesn't prevent usage at all - the answer is education. If part of that education is "you don't really need a wire brush on grit because it damages the rock" then that's fine, but bans are a step backwards. Why? Because it means that people will just do it on the sly, when nobody's about to see. Better to educate and let peer pressure do it's work.
young? talented? Naaah, not me mate
In reply to Sloper:No i don't support the brushing in question. My point is, as i have already stated, any brushing is unacceptable if it leaves damaged rock or unsightly marks regardless of the brush used, ergo any brush is acceptable as long as it does not damage or excessively mark rock. I have no reason to disbelieve the guy in question, i have seen the brush in question, it is a large floor scrubbing type brush.
To answer your other confrontational remarks.
Chipping is out of order in any setting. However brushing is not chipping. Bad cleaning can be as bad as brushing in extreme cases, but don't try to muddy the water by calling a spade a spoon.
Why is suggesting that all means of protecting the rock be considered in anyway a bad thing. This is an area i don't know that much about, and that is why i put it as a question. In what way does that make me guilty of supporting pof or brushing damaged rock. Why don't you call me a child abuser while your throwing around wild unconnected accusations.
I'm sorry but it's not my place to give the name of the brusher. If he wants to own up thats his choice.
To answer your other confrontational remarks.
Chipping is out of order in any setting. However brushing is not chipping. Bad cleaning can be as bad as brushing in extreme cases, but don't try to muddy the water by calling a spade a spoon.
Why is suggesting that all means of protecting the rock be considered in anyway a bad thing. This is an area i don't know that much about, and that is why i put it as a question. In what way does that make me guilty of supporting pof or brushing damaged rock. Why don't you call me a child abuser while your throwing around wild unconnected accusations.
I'm sorry but it's not my place to give the name of the brusher. If he wants to own up thats his choice.
In reply to markk: You have seen the brush that they say they used, however having closely examined the damage I just cannot believe a plastic brush would cause visible groves in the rock. Did you see them do it? perhaps you can persuade them, anonomously of course to explain [an perhaps justify] on here how and why they did it?
As for the type of brush, if anything goes as long as it doesn't damage the rock, would you agree that it is a good thing to delicately remove lichen with a chisel, as long as one were careful or would this, if adopted by top performers send out a worrying precedent?
i can't believe you don't understand the point about saying no wire brushes on the basis that it will have the effect of damaging the rock unaceeptable. I.e. drink driving. You can drink and drive up to a certain point, but by giving the message that it's a bad thing it has become socially unaceeptable to do it and the frequency is declining as a result.
As for foor marks being confused for brushing, yeah, fair point if you're wearing crampons!
Perhpas I was confrontational but creatingi holds with a brush is to my mind chipping in the same way that pulling off a flake with a wire is chipping as is drilling holes or hammering of the lip of a sharp pocket.
As for the type of brush, if anything goes as long as it doesn't damage the rock, would you agree that it is a good thing to delicately remove lichen with a chisel, as long as one were careful or would this, if adopted by top performers send out a worrying precedent?
i can't believe you don't understand the point about saying no wire brushes on the basis that it will have the effect of damaging the rock unaceeptable. I.e. drink driving. You can drink and drive up to a certain point, but by giving the message that it's a bad thing it has become socially unaceeptable to do it and the frequency is declining as a result.
As for foor marks being confused for brushing, yeah, fair point if you're wearing crampons!
Perhpas I was confrontational but creatingi holds with a brush is to my mind chipping in the same way that pulling off a flake with a wire is chipping as is drilling holes or hammering of the lip of a sharp pocket.
In reply to brendonTendon:
"Sorry, but I don't agree - I don't think careful use does damage the rock."
Tell me you are taking the piss?? brushes cause erosion. If used carefully they erode less but they still erode.
"Wire brushes have been used sensibly for years without problems, but unfortunately the few have always abused them."
Hence my argument for getting rid of them on popular areas like grit bouldering altogether.
"People who don't respect the rock and who overbrush aren't going to give a sh*t about a "brush ban", and anyway, how is it going to be enforced? Just like in many other areas of life, e.g. drugs/alcohol/etc, banning something doesn't prevent usage at all - the answer is education."
I'd say its just the opposite: voluntary bans do work: bolts on grit, access arrangements, bird bans, plant bans. Occasionally idiots ignore them but they face a ton of shit from fellow climbers if caught. IMHO that stops a lot more than education on its own ever would. The main benefit of most of the bans (which are usually negotiated with climbing bodies) is they allow greater access than otherwise possible.
"Sorry, but I don't agree - I don't think careful use does damage the rock."
Tell me you are taking the piss?? brushes cause erosion. If used carefully they erode less but they still erode.
"Wire brushes have been used sensibly for years without problems, but unfortunately the few have always abused them."
Hence my argument for getting rid of them on popular areas like grit bouldering altogether.
"People who don't respect the rock and who overbrush aren't going to give a sh*t about a "brush ban", and anyway, how is it going to be enforced? Just like in many other areas of life, e.g. drugs/alcohol/etc, banning something doesn't prevent usage at all - the answer is education."
I'd say its just the opposite: voluntary bans do work: bolts on grit, access arrangements, bird bans, plant bans. Occasionally idiots ignore them but they face a ton of shit from fellow climbers if caught. IMHO that stops a lot more than education on its own ever would. The main benefit of most of the bans (which are usually negotiated with climbing bodies) is they allow greater access than otherwise possible.
In reply to Steve C:
No, I'm not taking the piss - f*ck off!
Yes, any brush is going to erode the rock, even a nylon brush, if you want to be all pedantic about it. So, let's stop using chalk, boots, hands, feet....oooh, let's not even touch the rock, that'll save it for ever.
Ok, I'd like to see it your way - tell me, how are you going to ban brushes? Check everyone's bag on the way up to the crag? Get real.
No, I'm not taking the piss - f*ck off!
Yes, any brush is going to erode the rock, even a nylon brush, if you want to be all pedantic about it. So, let's stop using chalk, boots, hands, feet....oooh, let's not even touch the rock, that'll save it for ever.
Ok, I'd like to see it your way - tell me, how are you going to ban brushes? Check everyone's bag on the way up to the crag? Get real.
In reply to brendonTendon:
Why couldn't we, in principle, just make brushing unacceptable, period? I never use one. OK, I'm not exactly putting up new cutting edge problems on virgin green boulders, but the Roaches gets pretty green and I've never found anything I wanted to do that needed more than a rub with a chalky towel.
I think a lot of brushing is a nervous tic, a displacement activity, like dabbing in the chalkbag, rather than anything necessary. And, for a few, it's an ego thing, to show that they are one of the boyz.
Why couldn't we, in principle, just make brushing unacceptable, period? I never use one. OK, I'm not exactly putting up new cutting edge problems on virgin green boulders, but the Roaches gets pretty green and I've never found anything I wanted to do that needed more than a rub with a chalky towel.
I think a lot of brushing is a nervous tic, a displacement activity, like dabbing in the chalkbag, rather than anything necessary. And, for a few, it's an ego thing, to show that they are one of the boyz.
In reply to brendonTendon: You could put plastic bubbles over the rocks too - that way you wouldn't get any wind/rain erosion - but people would still be able to see how lovely they are
In reply to brendonTendon:
Sorry to have annoyed you again but I was trying to make a serious point.
Brushing; chalk; climbing with poor style (especially falling lots onto marginal protection or scrabbling about due to lack of ability) all damage the rock. These are all things that may cause access problems in the future. However, the biggist increase in damage in the time Ive been climbing is the erosion of the popular boulder problems in the peak. Nearly all of it appears to be from brushing (I've challenged several over-vigourous brushers with various results: from invective to explanations like "top climbers do it" or "it improves friction if you remove the dirty surface layer"). If you extrapolate that damage for another few decades the problems will be unrecognisable.
Like I said before: you ban wire brushes on grit like you ban bolts on grit or access to certain crags...its all voluntary and oddly enough it usually works.
Sorry to have annoyed you again but I was trying to make a serious point.
Brushing; chalk; climbing with poor style (especially falling lots onto marginal protection or scrabbling about due to lack of ability) all damage the rock. These are all things that may cause access problems in the future. However, the biggist increase in damage in the time Ive been climbing is the erosion of the popular boulder problems in the peak. Nearly all of it appears to be from brushing (I've challenged several over-vigourous brushers with various results: from invective to explanations like "top climbers do it" or "it improves friction if you remove the dirty surface layer"). If you extrapolate that damage for another few decades the problems will be unrecognisable.
Like I said before: you ban wire brushes on grit like you ban bolts on grit or access to certain crags...its all voluntary and oddly enough it usually works.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Chalky towel!!!!!!
That's a bit harsh, what about just a good old fashioned blow?
or is that also too abrasive??
the question is "where do we draw the line?"
Chalky towel!!!!!!
That's a bit harsh, what about just a good old fashioned blow?
or is that also too abrasive??
the question is "where do we draw the line?"
In reply to Ogre: We know where the line has been drawn for a long time. Do not do anything that changes the rock. [and anyone that wants to argue heraclites' point regarding rivers, go find a pholosopher]
However some people will persist in crossing this line, whether by using pof, chipping be it with a brush, hammer and chisel, wire, or whatever.
The point is if wire brushing [which I hope no one would argue is the most significant cause of damage / chipping] were regarded as say, as acceptable of bolting yellow guts to Stanage and installing a top rope on cloggy the degree and extent of damage would be limited.
However some people will persist in crossing this line, whether by using pof, chipping be it with a brush, hammer and chisel, wire, or whatever.
The point is if wire brushing [which I hope no one would argue is the most significant cause of damage / chipping] were regarded as say, as acceptable of bolting yellow guts to Stanage and installing a top rope on cloggy the degree and extent of damage would be limited.
In reply to Sloper:
keep of the rocks y bloody climbers let the veg grow back at stanage. What? You thought it was naturally clean?.
keep of the rocks y bloody climbers let the veg grow back at stanage. What? You thought it was naturally clean?.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
if all you nancy scared of heights boulderers would piss off then the endless chipping/cleaning of boulders would stop.
Yes this is a piss poor attempt at a flame.
if all you nancy scared of heights boulderers would piss off then the endless chipping/cleaning of boulders would stop.
Yes this is a piss poor attempt at a flame.
In reply to Sloper:
sorry, I thought you were being serious when you said
"Do not do anything that changes the rock".
btw you should see all the chipping and scratching of rock on Ben Nevis - now that really is a disgrace
sorry, I thought you were being serious when you said
"Do not do anything that changes the rock".
btw you should see all the chipping and scratching of rock on Ben Nevis - now that really is a disgrace
In reply to Anonymous: Ok I ws being lazy, but if you wan't a semtantic argument, look elsewhere. Perhaps I should have said Don't damage the rock other than that which is inevitable by climbing over it, driving to it and burning fosil fuels etc etc.
And yes this does include not ramming friends being creaking flakes and hanging around on gear uining placements.
And yes this does include not ramming friends being creaking flakes and hanging around on gear uining placements.
In reply to Sloper:
Slopes, old man. Your spelling's gone to pot.
Slopes, old man. Your spelling's gone to pot.
In reply to Sloper:
oooh, there's that top roping thing again!
It's been said before, but without much effect it seems!
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE... That tope rope wouldn't damage the rock.
My real point, of course, is that attitudes like these make the valid things you (and others) say, i.e. don't change the rock for anyone else, more likely to be ignored.
> The point is if wire brushing [which I hope no one would argue is the most significant cause of damage / chipping] were regarded as say, as acceptable of bolting yellow guts to Stanage and installing a top rope on cloggy the degree and extent of damage would be limited.
oooh, there's that top roping thing again!
It's been said before, but without much effect it seems!
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE... That tope rope wouldn't damage the rock.
My real point, of course, is that attitudes like these make the valid things you (and others) say, i.e. don't change the rock for anyone else, more likely to be ignored.
In reply to Anonymous: sorry, but badly arranged top-ropes can (and frequently do) damage the rock, and more so than leading (or brushing).
In reply to Sloper: I can't add any further comment about the brush of doom, you don't beleive it, i can't prove it , end of story. I will put it to Mr x that he join the debate however i doubt he will as he is busy and has no access to a computer.
Your question about the chisel is utterly fatuous. It is outside the realms of possibility to clean without damage using a chisel, a point which does not apply to wirebrushes.
As for boot damage, have you seen the footholds on the b7 arete at higgar east? This has developed over several years and someone new to the spot may well think it is the result of over zealous brushing.
As for drinking and driving there is a legal limit ie about one pint, which negates your argument as i only support "one pint" of brushing.
Your question about the chisel is utterly fatuous. It is outside the realms of possibility to clean without damage using a chisel, a point which does not apply to wirebrushes.
As for boot damage, have you seen the footholds on the b7 arete at higgar east? This has developed over several years and someone new to the spot may well think it is the result of over zealous brushing.
As for drinking and driving there is a legal limit ie about one pint, which negates your argument as i only support "one pint" of brushing.
In reply to Markk:
"As for boot damage, have you seen the footholds on the b7 arete at higgar east? This has developed over several years and someone new to the spot may well think it is the result of over zealous brushing."
How on earth do you know its not due to brushing????...I innocently thought Burbage south was due to traffic until I met 'Mr Remove the Surface Layer to Improve Friction' and hence started to pay a bit more atttention to the problem.
"As for boot damage, have you seen the footholds on the b7 arete at higgar east? This has developed over several years and someone new to the spot may well think it is the result of over zealous brushing."
How on earth do you know its not due to brushing????...I innocently thought Burbage south was due to traffic until I met 'Mr Remove the Surface Layer to Improve Friction' and hence started to pay a bit more atttention to the problem.
In reply to Steve C:That's exactly my point, how do you know. In most cases bad brushing is plain to see, but on other ocassions are we avoiding the hard issue by blaming wire brushing. The hard issue being, climbing per-se is destroying some problems.
In reply to Markk:
I know because I saw it and there was almost no lichen and the guy said its what he did on all problems. Chalk and climbing (especially badly) also do damage but significantly less IMHO.
When you realise what is going on you watch more: my evidence for brushing is a follows:
:
seen it done
brushing erodes significantly more than poor footwork (which tends to polish...see the beginners routes)
brushing leaves a different pattern (again footwrok tends to polish and who scrables leaving scratches from side to side).
If gritstone eroded that much by poor footwork the occasional brushers would have wrecked it ages ago.
I know because I saw it and there was almost no lichen and the guy said its what he did on all problems. Chalk and climbing (especially badly) also do damage but significantly less IMHO.
When you realise what is going on you watch more: my evidence for brushing is a follows:
:
seen it done
brushing erodes significantly more than poor footwork (which tends to polish...see the beginners routes)
brushing leaves a different pattern (again footwrok tends to polish and who scrables leaving scratches from side to side).
If gritstone eroded that much by poor footwork the occasional brushers would have wrecked it ages ago.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
I did warn you you'd have trouble with brendontendon! The usual crass arguments from the pro- brushers, in particular:-
Overbrushing's been going on for ages (therefore we needn't stop).
I'm careful (and therefore I've got no responsibility for setting a good example to others who might not be).
Wire doesn't erode any more than boot rubber and/or nylon (to quote John Sherman, if you think this is true try brushing your teeth gently with a wire brush).
Climbing at all erodes the rock (therefore it doesn't matter what we do).
Oh, and of course, misrepresenting what is being suggested as a 'ban', and all the non-arguments that follow from that.
But best of all, and new to me: 'I'm an intelligent adult and therefore no matter how many of you disagree with me I'm still right.' (I say 'new to me', one has of course heard this or something very like it in playgrounds, but not usually from those old enough to use a computer.)
I actually can't believe there are people denying there's a sharply increased problem with this. Every time I go to the Eastern Peak I'm shocked by how much it's deteriorated recently, and it certainly ain't just traffic.
I did warn you you'd have trouble with brendontendon! The usual crass arguments from the pro- brushers, in particular:-
Overbrushing's been going on for ages (therefore we needn't stop).
I'm careful (and therefore I've got no responsibility for setting a good example to others who might not be).
Wire doesn't erode any more than boot rubber and/or nylon (to quote John Sherman, if you think this is true try brushing your teeth gently with a wire brush).
Climbing at all erodes the rock (therefore it doesn't matter what we do).
Oh, and of course, misrepresenting what is being suggested as a 'ban', and all the non-arguments that follow from that.
But best of all, and new to me: 'I'm an intelligent adult and therefore no matter how many of you disagree with me I'm still right.' (I say 'new to me', one has of course heard this or something very like it in playgrounds, but not usually from those old enough to use a computer.)
I actually can't believe there are people denying there's a sharply increased problem with this. Every time I go to the Eastern Peak I'm shocked by how much it's deteriorated recently, and it certainly ain't just traffic.
In reply to John Cox:
How would it be if we refused to put obviously overbrushed new routes in the guidebook? Actually, of course, this might not help much. The problem is more with people who can't actually quite do the route.
There are certainly a few thin desperates I can think of that would be completely transformed and ruined by brushing. If something serious isn't done in the way of re-education, it's only a matter of time before this happens. Sounds like it already has on Ou Est le Spit. What's next, Script for a Tear (looked *very* clean last time I was there)?
I know the discussion has centred on boulders, but the same people, with the same selfish attitudes, sometimes venture onto greater things.
How would it be if we refused to put obviously overbrushed new routes in the guidebook? Actually, of course, this might not help much. The problem is more with people who can't actually quite do the route.
There are certainly a few thin desperates I can think of that would be completely transformed and ruined by brushing. If something serious isn't done in the way of re-education, it's only a matter of time before this happens. Sounds like it already has on Ou Est le Spit. What's next, Script for a Tear (looked *very* clean last time I was there)?
I know the discussion has centred on boulders, but the same people, with the same selfish attitudes, sometimes venture onto greater things.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Not just greater things there are plenty of obscure slab routes in my normal range (S-E1) that get the funny red patches. Just stick NO WIRE BRUSHES in all the grit guides and trust to honesty and 'gentle' persuation. It nearly always works for chippers and bolts so why not wire brushes.
In reply to John Cox
Who's going to volunteer to clean their teeth with steath rubber for the tooth brush comparison???
Not just greater things there are plenty of obscure slab routes in my normal range (S-E1) that get the funny red patches. Just stick NO WIRE BRUSHES in all the grit guides and trust to honesty and 'gentle' persuation. It nearly always works for chippers and bolts so why not wire brushes.
In reply to John Cox
Who's going to volunteer to clean their teeth with steath rubber for the tooth brush comparison???
In reply to John Cox:
wow, you really are a bitchy little prick, aren't you John?
Just coz I said I'd used a wire brush in the past, you decide to single me out on this thread with accusations of me of being a chipper, or, as you put it, a "pro-brusher".
What I actually said was: Wire brushes have been used sensibly for years without problems, but unfortunately the few have always abused them. Overbrushing isn't anything new. Did I say that "we needn't stop overbrushing"? No, I didn't, did I?
I'm not denying that wire brushes can be destructive, but they're not necessarily destructive if used with care. Why not read the full post? I've already said that they're not necessary on 99.9% of Peak Grit, haven't I?
I'm not misrepresenting what's meant by a ban, I just don't think it'll work. If you ban something, then it gets pushed "underground". What I think will happen is that those who feel they need to overbrush will still do it, they'll just do it when there's nobody around to see. I think that's a worse situation than just changing people's attitude to wire brushes over time. I believe peer pressure is going to be more effective than someone attempting to impose a ban.
And, btw, if anyone's being childish on this thread, then it's you.
wow, you really are a bitchy little prick, aren't you John?
Just coz I said I'd used a wire brush in the past, you decide to single me out on this thread with accusations of me of being a chipper, or, as you put it, a "pro-brusher".
What I actually said was: Wire brushes have been used sensibly for years without problems, but unfortunately the few have always abused them. Overbrushing isn't anything new. Did I say that "we needn't stop overbrushing"? No, I didn't, did I?
I'm not denying that wire brushes can be destructive, but they're not necessarily destructive if used with care. Why not read the full post? I've already said that they're not necessary on 99.9% of Peak Grit, haven't I?
I'm not misrepresenting what's meant by a ban, I just don't think it'll work. If you ban something, then it gets pushed "underground". What I think will happen is that those who feel they need to overbrush will still do it, they'll just do it when there's nobody around to see. I think that's a worse situation than just changing people's attitude to wire brushes over time. I believe peer pressure is going to be more effective than someone attempting to impose a ban.
And, btw, if anyone's being childish on this thread, then it's you.
In reply to Markk: No I think very careful use of a chisel al a michalangelo, and also depending on the size and type of the chise one could remove say moss without damaging the rock.
Which B7 arete are you talking about last time i wsa there two of the harder aretes one near pooh had IMPROVED footholds rather than polished foothalds. I just find it impossible to believe that rubber erored rock in the manner that steel erodes rock. Compare say, Crack and Corner at Stanage with the fera and Loathing boulder, Hmmm yep, the damage and erosion is, well, identical!
The point about drinking and driving is that the reduction in numbers [and rise in prosecutions] is about and perhaps due to the change in attitude.
This is a pernicious practice and the message needs putting in a moth forthright manner that it is unacceptable otherwise the practice will continue to spread.
Which B7 arete are you talking about last time i wsa there two of the harder aretes one near pooh had IMPROVED footholds rather than polished foothalds. I just find it impossible to believe that rubber erored rock in the manner that steel erodes rock. Compare say, Crack and Corner at Stanage with the fera and Loathing boulder, Hmmm yep, the damage and erosion is, well, identical!
The point about drinking and driving is that the reduction in numbers [and rise in prosecutions] is about and perhaps due to the change in attitude.
This is a pernicious practice and the message needs putting in a moth forthright manner that it is unacceptable otherwise the practice will continue to spread.
In reply to brendonTendon:
I don't agree with the relevance of your statement "Overbrushing isn't anything new" as it's got WAY MORE common recently and that's what we are discussing here.
The point about 'banning' is not because wire brushes can't be used responsibly per se, but to send out the message that it isn't common practice to those who think it is common practice. Fine, I'm sure you have used a wire brush on grit carefully and could continue to do so, but how would that contribute to solving this problem?
Fair enough, 'banning' might be the wrong choice of word, but if there was a community-based general acceptance that wire brushes don't have a place on grit (like they have in Northumberland with top-roping), it might start to filtering through to the uncaring/unenlightened few.
If those who regularly climb on grit care at all about the increased damage to the rock through overbrushing, they should try and do their bit in my opinion. Just ignoring it and doing your own thing won't stop the rock getting trashed.
I don't agree with the relevance of your statement "Overbrushing isn't anything new" as it's got WAY MORE common recently and that's what we are discussing here.
The point about 'banning' is not because wire brushes can't be used responsibly per se, but to send out the message that it isn't common practice to those who think it is common practice. Fine, I'm sure you have used a wire brush on grit carefully and could continue to do so, but how would that contribute to solving this problem?
Fair enough, 'banning' might be the wrong choice of word, but if there was a community-based general acceptance that wire brushes don't have a place on grit (like they have in Northumberland with top-roping), it might start to filtering through to the uncaring/unenlightened few.
If those who regularly climb on grit care at all about the increased damage to the rock through overbrushing, they should try and do their bit in my opinion. Just ignoring it and doing your own thing won't stop the rock getting trashed.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
Yes, I agree - that statement isn't relevant to the wider issue. I was arguing the toss with Steve C over whether wire brushes damage the rock if used carefully. What I meant was just that certain people have always overused brushes, whereas the majority have used them sensibly.
Yes, there has been a lot of overbrushing recently, not to mention the blatant chipping (as a Cratcliffe - see above), and I'm entirely against it - just to clarify, most of my posts on this thread have been me defending myself against thinly veiled bullshit accusations by people like Mr Cox.
So, what's the solution? As has been suggested by many posters, a cultural change is needed - this must come from the media, guidebooks, and education by peers. I've only had a brush in my bag if we're going to somewhere obscure/green/remote/etc anyway, and I'm certainly prepared to swap my brush for something else, if that's going to stop people seeing me using one and thinking, "good idea, I need one of them...".
I'll do my bit on ukBouldering.com, as that's the only media I have control over, and so should the big sites like this one, and especially the rockfax bouldering guides, as they're greatly responsible for the increase in the popularity of bouldering in the first place.
Yes, I agree - that statement isn't relevant to the wider issue. I was arguing the toss with Steve C over whether wire brushes damage the rock if used carefully. What I meant was just that certain people have always overused brushes, whereas the majority have used them sensibly.
Yes, there has been a lot of overbrushing recently, not to mention the blatant chipping (as a Cratcliffe - see above), and I'm entirely against it - just to clarify, most of my posts on this thread have been me defending myself against thinly veiled bullshit accusations by people like Mr Cox.
So, what's the solution? As has been suggested by many posters, a cultural change is needed - this must come from the media, guidebooks, and education by peers. I've only had a brush in my bag if we're going to somewhere obscure/green/remote/etc anyway, and I'm certainly prepared to swap my brush for something else, if that's going to stop people seeing me using one and thinking, "good idea, I need one of them...".
I'll do my bit on ukBouldering.com, as that's the only media I have control over, and so should the big sites like this one, and especially the rockfax bouldering guides, as they're greatly responsible for the increase in the popularity of bouldering in the first place.
In reply to Sloper: Yes thats the arete. The bottom bit of the prob is made of soft damp rock with a hard crust. I mentioned this problem as it is one i have seen gradually deteriorate over the years. It originally had a good but soft edge for the feet which has since become a sandy scoop. It is not as you say improved it has eroded through use, hence my bringing up broader conservation issues.
For the record, on consideration, if a consensus arose that wire brushes should not be used i would abide by this despite my views. There you go who said these forums never changed peoples minds?
For the record, on consideration, if a consensus arose that wire brushes should not be used i would abide by this despite my views. There you go who said these forums never changed peoples minds?
In reply to brendonTendon:
Good God! The road to Damascus. TomB, you obviously ought to be a politician. Or possibly a religious leader.
And I shouldn't be. But I guess we knew that already.
Good God! The road to Damascus. TomB, you obviously ought to be a politician. Or possibly a religious leader.
And I shouldn't be. But I guess we knew that already.
In reply to Markk:
"It originally had a good but soft edge for the feet which has since become a sandy scoop. It is not as you say improved it has eroded through use, hence my bringing up broader conservation issues."
I'm afraid we will have to disagree as I just dont believe this. How do you know that wear from boots rather than something else created the scoop. If boots create that level of damage, popular routes on Southern Sandstone would be covered in foot-holes by now.
"It originally had a good but soft edge for the feet which has since become a sandy scoop. It is not as you say improved it has eroded through use, hence my bringing up broader conservation issues."
I'm afraid we will have to disagree as I just dont believe this. How do you know that wear from boots rather than something else created the scoop. If boots create that level of damage, popular routes on Southern Sandstone would be covered in foot-holes by now.
In reply to markk:
Markk, are you by any chance Mark Katz? If so could you possibly e-mail me? I want to get Young Pretender right in the next BMC guide (I am updating this section) and there seem to be conflicting views about which rather fine arete YP takes.
Markk, are you by any chance Mark Katz? If so could you possibly e-mail me? I want to get Young Pretender right in the next BMC guide (I am updating this section) and there seem to be conflicting views about which rather fine arete YP takes.
just leave it alone. don't brush it, dig it, scrape it or anything else that is going to de-face the rock or the enviroment. I'm reative new to all this and certainly not familiar with all the ins and outs and what is/is not aceptable when outside. It doesn't take a genius (or a newbie!!) to realise that if you scrape,brush/chip the rock it isn't going to grow back!!! While I understand that proficient/professional climbers are constantly on the look out for new and more challenging routes brushing,chipping etc changes the look of the rock and then the description in the guide books are ???wrong and I'm left wondering what the hell I've just tried to climb and where is it in the book, have I missed read the grade etc.
Please don't do it, I'd like something left to show my kids as they grow up.
I live in North Staffordshire amongst the gritstone and quite like it the way it is. If you want to deface stone do it in your own back garden Thank You Very Much!!!
Steve
PS
WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE TELL WHAT "POF" IS - Thanks
Please don't do it, I'd like something left to show my kids as they grow up.
I live in North Staffordshire amongst the gritstone and quite like it the way it is. If you want to deface stone do it in your own back garden Thank You Very Much!!!
Steve
PS
WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE TELL WHAT "POF" IS - Thanks
In reply to Steve C:
"If boots create that level of damage, popular routes on Southern Sandstone would be covered in foot-holes by now."
I take it you haven't climbed much on s' sandstone!!!!
"If boots create that level of damage, popular routes on Southern Sandstone would be covered in foot-holes by now."
I take it you haven't climbed much on s' sandstone!!!!
In reply to steve rust:
'POF' = French word for resin, much used by French climbers in Fontainebleau for making their feet stickier. Eventually glazes footholds and makes them unusable without it, and is regarded by a most as a no-no in the UK although a selfish minority persists.
'POF' = French word for resin, much used by French climbers in Fontainebleau for making their feet stickier. Eventually glazes footholds and makes them unusable without it, and is regarded by a most as a no-no in the UK although a selfish minority persists.
Ta for that, I must admit I never actually seen it used anywhere.I had a vague idea but was uncertain to what it was
In reply to Anonymous:
i just wear my rockboots all day at the crag to get the same effect of making my feet stickier
i just wear my rockboots all day at the crag to get the same effect of making my feet stickier
In reply to MadBadger: (sorry, posted .net url instead of .com)
Sorry to drag up an old thread, but to illustrate the chipping at Cratcliffe that I mentioned above - see the following page:
http://www.ukbouldering.com/chip01.htm
bT
Sorry to drag up an old thread, but to illustrate the chipping at Cratcliffe that I mentioned above - see the following page:
http://www.ukbouldering.com/chip01.htm
bT
In reply to brendonTendon:
I saw this last November - I'd pretty much done it last time I was there (before chipping) but my foot brushed the floor - doh!
So I went back to do it, and some bastard's ruined it. For f*cks sake, if you can't do a problem don't ruin it for others.
I saw this last November - I'd pretty much done it last time I was there (before chipping) but my foot brushed the floor - doh!
So I went back to do it, and some bastard's ruined it. For f*cks sake, if you can't do a problem don't ruin it for others.
In reply to South Devon Rock Hugger:
yeah, exactly - it was on my list too! I did it today with the chip second try and it's nowhere near as hard - I'd only done the move once in it's pre-chipped state.
I tried to do it without the chip, which is possible, but I couldn't get it. Someone stronger than me could easily do it without the chip but it's in exactly the place you want to put your foot, so doing it without the chip is really contrived.
ps before people note that in the guide it says the foothold used to be chipped - yes, it might have been, but that had worn away long ago. Also, I know the rock is a bit soft there, but this isn't wear and tear, it's a chip.
yeah, exactly - it was on my list too! I did it today with the chip second try and it's nowhere near as hard - I'd only done the move once in it's pre-chipped state.
I tried to do it without the chip, which is possible, but I couldn't get it. Someone stronger than me could easily do it without the chip but it's in exactly the place you want to put your foot, so doing it without the chip is really contrived.
ps before people note that in the guide it says the foothold used to be chipped - yes, it might have been, but that had worn away long ago. Also, I know the rock is a bit soft there, but this isn't wear and tear, it's a chip.
In reply to brendonTendon: Bastards bastards bastards how mentally weak are some people that they think this is acceptable to anybody never mind climbers...this was a great fun problem, I've done it loads of times after spending an hour on it the first time without moving off the floor and doing it second go the second time there (I took my brain the second time!) and now it's destroyed. I can't believe this picture...or rather I can't believe some bastard did what's in the picture...
Any thoughts on whether it could be repaired somehow?
Any thoughts on whether it could be repaired somehow?
In reply to Ian Hill:
ridiculous, isn't it? And just so blatant too.
I really don't know about a repair. I don't think whacking a lump of sica in there would be any better really, but maybe people have repaired such things successfully in the past?
took my brain the second time ... you used your left heel round the arete?
ridiculous, isn't it? And just so blatant too.
I really don't know about a repair. I don't think whacking a lump of sica in there would be any better really, but maybe people have repaired such things successfully in the past?
took my brain the second time ... you used your left heel round the arete?
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor: maybe the fact that a chipped hold was mentioned in the guide wasn't a good idea? Maybe the bastard that did this thought they were just doing everyone a favour by reinstating it?
This was a fabulous little problem and I feel ridiculously sad that it's been destroyed.
This was a fabulous little problem and I feel ridiculously sad that it's been destroyed.
In reply to brendonTendon: no, even the first time I had my heel round the arete but I was leaving my left hand in place and slapping up to a small pocket just below the top with my right hand...would work but wasn't B8! Doing it the approved way suits/suited my style perfectly
I'm still stunned
I'm still stunned
In reply to brendonTendon: Jesus F***ing H, what is going on? This is outrageous. Who are these people? I just can't believe that anybody with half a brain might think that this is acceptable.
I remember about 10 years ago some bastard chipped all the slopey footholds on the traverse at West Vale, so that they were easier to stand on. We never found out who did it either, and no doubt this culprit will remain anonymous too. I guess what gets me about it is that this has obviously been done by a climber. Maybe it's an education problem, maybe we need to get hold of them when they're young and make sure they understands the rule of the game.
I don't know what to say really.
It would be possible to repair, in fact quite straightforward for anybody with experience of working with resin mixes, except that a colour match is unlikely.
Just get hold of someone in the climbing wall industry, they'll know they score.
Cheers, Simon.
I remember about 10 years ago some bastard chipped all the slopey footholds on the traverse at West Vale, so that they were easier to stand on. We never found out who did it either, and no doubt this culprit will remain anonymous too. I guess what gets me about it is that this has obviously been done by a climber. Maybe it's an education problem, maybe we need to get hold of them when they're young and make sure they understands the rule of the game.
I don't know what to say really.
It would be possible to repair, in fact quite straightforward for anybody with experience of working with resin mixes, except that a colour match is unlikely.
Just get hold of someone in the climbing wall industry, they'll know they score.
Cheers, Simon.
In reply to Simon Panton: I think repairing it is the way forward - ok you won't get the same colour and texture exactly, but the most important thing is to try and protect the remaining rock. Since the rock there is quite soft anyway i would be worried that this new improved foothold will rapidly wear/disintagrate, maybe leaving an even nastier broken mess.
In reply to Simon Panton & Dave:
Does a repair still have similar frictional properties to the rock? I agree that if left, the hold will only get bigger and create an even uglier scar, so maybe something should be done. Does this need Peak Park approval, etc??
Does a repair still have similar frictional properties to the rock? I agree that if left, the hold will only get bigger and create an even uglier scar, so maybe something should be done. Does this need Peak Park approval, etc??
In reply to brendonTendon:
Was it Martin Veale and someone else that repaired the chips on the slab at Robin Hood's Stride? (And then the chipping bastard did the first chip free ascent - irony if ever I heard it). Perhaps he'd have an idea...
My way of doing the problem was simple - pull onto rock, leave left hand where is with right smearing, and pop for top slopey thing. Didn't seem too hard (despite not quite doping it...), though - am I missing something?
Was it Martin Veale and someone else that repaired the chips on the slab at Robin Hood's Stride? (And then the chipping bastard did the first chip free ascent - irony if ever I heard it). Perhaps he'd have an idea...
My way of doing the problem was simple - pull onto rock, leave left hand where is with right smearing, and pop for top slopey thing. Didn't seem too hard (despite not quite doping it...), though - am I missing something?
In reply to South Devon Rock Hugger:
Yes, I believe Martin Veale & Allen Williams had something to do with it - I might ask Jude to ask Martin. In defence of the guy who did those chips you're talking about, he really didn't know any better - the tale goes something like this:
The guy was a dry-stone waller working at RHS. He'd never climbed before, but he saw all these boulders with old chips in them, and thought this was the norm. So, he chipped the slab before the error of his ways were pointed out to him. Turns out that the chips were repaired and the guy did the first ascent of the slab at E6 (I think - route name escapes me), which is pretty smart for a beginner...
My way is: sit on bum, right hand in two finger undercut, left hand on arete. smear with right foot, pull on and heel-hook left foot round arete. Slap left hand up the arete, then right hand onto top, then work up the rest of the problem as for the b3 standing start. Method is the same with the chipped version, but the initial slap up the arete is much less powerful, and definitely a couple of grades easier. The method that Ian Hill was describing above using the little high pocket for the right hand is a harder eliminate.
Yes, I believe Martin Veale & Allen Williams had something to do with it - I might ask Jude to ask Martin. In defence of the guy who did those chips you're talking about, he really didn't know any better - the tale goes something like this:
The guy was a dry-stone waller working at RHS. He'd never climbed before, but he saw all these boulders with old chips in them, and thought this was the norm. So, he chipped the slab before the error of his ways were pointed out to him. Turns out that the chips were repaired and the guy did the first ascent of the slab at E6 (I think - route name escapes me), which is pretty smart for a beginner...
My way is: sit on bum, right hand in two finger undercut, left hand on arete. smear with right foot, pull on and heel-hook left foot round arete. Slap left hand up the arete, then right hand onto top, then work up the rest of the problem as for the b3 standing start. Method is the same with the chipped version, but the initial slap up the arete is much less powerful, and definitely a couple of grades easier. The method that Ian Hill was describing above using the little high pocket for the right hand is a harder eliminate.
In reply to brendonTendon: I belive the route in question was caled Scargolia (or similar) and given E7 6c. I felt sorry for the chipper on this occaision, but Martin Veale seems quite bitter about it, after reading his article in a recent OTE.
In reply to Dave: ohhh slabs my fav,where on rhs is that route?
In reply to mark s: its supposed to be somwhere towards the top of the stride - personally i've never seen it cos i can't tear myself away from the boulders for long enough.
This is what it says in the peak new routes list:-
Scagliola E7 6c John Bradbury (solo) 06/Feb/97
Climb directly up the centre of the 'chipless' slab. (7m)
This is what it says in the peak new routes list:-
Scagliola E7 6c John Bradbury (solo) 06/Feb/97
Climb directly up the centre of the 'chipless' slab. (7m)
In reply to Dave:
Yes, it's up and round to the left (iirc) of Kaluza Klein, among a sort of jumble of boulders. Fairly obvious because the repairs are still visible. Not the most worthwhile-looking route in the world imho, a few moves above a very unpleasant landing on a narrow and not terribly attractive slab - looks like you could jump off to the side. Haven't been on it, though, so could well have the best moves in the world and fel totally committing once you're on it for all I know.
Yes, it's up and round to the left (iirc) of Kaluza Klein, among a sort of jumble of boulders. Fairly obvious because the repairs are still visible. Not the most worthwhile-looking route in the world imho, a few moves above a very unpleasant landing on a narrow and not terribly attractive slab - looks like you could jump off to the side. Haven't been on it, though, so could well have the best moves in the world and fel totally committing once you're on it for all I know.
In reply to johncoxathome: chip chip chip, you chipy beaks . chicken dinner. I found my self among a jumble of rice , tumbleing down to the kaluza klein. sniff my rice. cockles and tossles. boff. sniff my green swoooooord. terry.,
the tollund man. sweteee.
the tollund man. sweteee.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
Hi Everyone
I'm busy putting together a piece for Summit magazine right now about Chipping. I've got a bit of spare space, so am boldly including direct quotes from people here on this board.
They'll go in as-is, no editing (other than the more dubious rude words censored...), and be attributed to your discussion board name / real name if I know it.
They're just in a "latest views" style section - i.e. aren't going to be used out of context, and will be preceded by a "....this topic has caused a lot of heated comment online...such as..." style intro.
So, do get in touch (alex@thebmc.co.uk), if for any reason you don't want to be included, or would like your real name added instead of your nickname.
Cheers
Alex.
Hi Everyone
I'm busy putting together a piece for Summit magazine right now about Chipping. I've got a bit of spare space, so am boldly including direct quotes from people here on this board.
They'll go in as-is, no editing (other than the more dubious rude words censored...), and be attributed to your discussion board name / real name if I know it.
They're just in a "latest views" style section - i.e. aren't going to be used out of context, and will be preceded by a "....this topic has caused a lot of heated comment online...such as..." style intro.
So, do get in touch (alex@thebmc.co.uk), if for any reason you don't want to be included, or would like your real name added instead of your nickname.
Cheers
Alex.
In reply to alex:
You are a glutton for punishment, reading and extracting excerpts from this lot. Best of luck, if you find anything I have written no problems using it. Not my worry though so unlikely to have posted on subject. I would stop people doing it if I found them doing it however.
You are a glutton for punishment, reading and extracting excerpts from this lot. Best of luck, if you find anything I have written no problems using it. Not my worry though so unlikely to have posted on subject. I would stop people doing it if I found them doing it however.
In reply to alex: no probs with anything I've written...anything that stops these selfish incapable bastards is good
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
Al Williams is pretty much the man when it comes to making a good job of repairs and colour matching etc damaged Grit, i've seen some of his work before. Friction on these repairs is not too bad either so it is definatly worth investigating.
This brings up a wider debate of whether someone like BMC - or here's a novel idea how about those who benefit most from publicising routes the GUIDEBOOK makers - should 'sponsor' and condone this sort of repair action for all our sakes to repair the damage climbers have made by getting a talented repairer like Al to fix things up.
It would be better to install someone who can do a good job, and is 'officially' sanctioned and tackle this head on rather than leaving other well meaning but less talented repairers to have a go. This happened at Font as the rock there is very soft and someone made a real pigs ear.
It will be this sort of well publicised actions supported by all involved eg BMC, Magazines, Guides, Manufacturers, Climbers, which will highlight and hopefully help to show people the error of their ways, as well as being the sort of 'self - policing' which will show climbers in a good light to those who condemn the current 'overuse' of areas such as Stanage etc.
If left it is only a matter of time befopre these incidents lead us into more problems with access etc.
We have a moral responsibility to take a stand on this and protect and preserve our - very limited - resources. As we all know this will only get worse it seems to be a big problem even now - i have seen lots of smaller examples - and as we all know chipping will lead to chipping. If the offending things are repaired quickly and dealt with positively then maybe we can keep a cap on it.
How about a 'Repair Fund' similar to the old bolts funds to pay for the time, effort and materials it will take to do a good job?
I will gladly chuck in £20 and will also talk to my bosses at Wild Country about some more funding.
If the will is there amoungst climbers we can eradicate this shitty offensive action from our crags quickly.
Al Williams is pretty much the man when it comes to making a good job of repairs and colour matching etc damaged Grit, i've seen some of his work before. Friction on these repairs is not too bad either so it is definatly worth investigating.
This brings up a wider debate of whether someone like BMC - or here's a novel idea how about those who benefit most from publicising routes the GUIDEBOOK makers - should 'sponsor' and condone this sort of repair action for all our sakes to repair the damage climbers have made by getting a talented repairer like Al to fix things up.
It would be better to install someone who can do a good job, and is 'officially' sanctioned and tackle this head on rather than leaving other well meaning but less talented repairers to have a go. This happened at Font as the rock there is very soft and someone made a real pigs ear.
It will be this sort of well publicised actions supported by all involved eg BMC, Magazines, Guides, Manufacturers, Climbers, which will highlight and hopefully help to show people the error of their ways, as well as being the sort of 'self - policing' which will show climbers in a good light to those who condemn the current 'overuse' of areas such as Stanage etc.
If left it is only a matter of time befopre these incidents lead us into more problems with access etc.
We have a moral responsibility to take a stand on this and protect and preserve our - very limited - resources. As we all know this will only get worse it seems to be a big problem even now - i have seen lots of smaller examples - and as we all know chipping will lead to chipping. If the offending things are repaired quickly and dealt with positively then maybe we can keep a cap on it.
How about a 'Repair Fund' similar to the old bolts funds to pay for the time, effort and materials it will take to do a good job?
I will gladly chuck in £20 and will also talk to my bosses at Wild Country about some more funding.
If the will is there amoungst climbers we can eradicate this shitty offensive action from our crags quickly.
In reply to Richie Patterson: Couldn't agree more Richie, I'd gladly give my money...we need to cure the cause (the bastard chippers) as well as the symptom (the chipped rock) though...this would be a great start though
In reply to Richie Patterson:
Nice one Richie - good idea, and if you can get Wild Country into it then that'd be great.
Do you have Al's email? (I can get it of Mark H if you haven't) - I'm happy to get in touch with him, and also Jude CT reckoned Mart Veale would be keen to help out too.
Nice one Richie - good idea, and if you can get Wild Country into it then that'd be great.
Do you have Al's email? (I can get it of Mark H if you haven't) - I'm happy to get in touch with him, and also Jude CT reckoned Mart Veale would be keen to help out too.
In reply to Richie Patterson:
Of course the situation with respect to chipping is not helped when the guidebooks take a less than hard line on chipping. Check out your favourite new guidebook on the subject.
Of course the situation with respect to chipping is not helped when the guidebooks take a less than hard line on chipping. Check out your favourite new guidebook on the subject.
It all sounds like a good idea, but one that would need to be done very carefully. Not every example is as cut and dried as the Scagolia case (which did sound like a totally genuine mistake by the guy). But I do agree that whatever seems to be the best course of action, it would be best to get it done as well as possible, and if that meant paying an expert, I would hazard a guess that that money could easily come out of guidebook funds. Doesn't Bob Smith use some sort of DIY resin up in the County to prevent erosion?
In reply to niall grimes:
Bob's been using small amounts of some Focus(i think)own brand stabiliser on some boulder problems. He tried it out on a very soft patch of rock near the bottom of Sue on Bowden Doors(in an out-of-the-way spot, not on a route!) and left it for a couple of years to see if there was any effect. You couldn't tell it was there, except the rock was nice and solid. Since then it's been used on a couple of popular boulder problems at Shaftoe on ultra soft bits where it's worked perfectly (so far).
I don't think there'll be much more of the stabiliser approach though, 'cos BMC are in the process of getting the Southern Sandstone french polish technique introduced. This has had much more testing.
Bob's been using small amounts of some Focus(i think)own brand stabiliser on some boulder problems. He tried it out on a very soft patch of rock near the bottom of Sue on Bowden Doors(in an out-of-the-way spot, not on a route!) and left it for a couple of years to see if there was any effect. You couldn't tell it was there, except the rock was nice and solid. Since then it's been used on a couple of popular boulder problems at Shaftoe on ultra soft bits where it's worked perfectly (so far).
I don't think there'll be much more of the stabiliser approach though, 'cos BMC are in the process of getting the Southern Sandstone french polish technique introduced. This has had much more testing.
In reply to jdalatwork: Thanks. I'll try to find out how this French polishing went, or what other techniques have been used. Do you know of any others?
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