UKC

Is it ok to make landings better by moving rocks and digging up the ground? You could do it in the mountains so isn't it ok?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

no probs....why notuse one of these:

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/11247608/Jcb_804_Super_Excavator.jpg

In reply to Franco Cookson: No.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

No it's vandalism.

In reply to Morgan Woods: thats the most ironic thing i've ever seen. look at the route I was looking at doing it to:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=8894

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: why? I don't get it. If a massive spikey rock at the bottom of a climb stops it being climbed and turns a classic into an only-workable death trap, why not?

In reply to Franco Cookson: People garden and remove rocks from routes while cleaning so why not. I think its important to use common sense mind you shouldn't go digging up hige boulders but clearing a few annoying stones which are loose (as opposed to embedded in the ground) is ok. Although if your the only person using a crag i think its ok to remove the odd obstruction to a landing as it will make the problem/route better.

In reply to JoeL 90: what do people think of moving a five tonish boulder from below ali Baba and Grand Master Flash?

In reply to Franco Cookson:
if you want to play in a safe environment, head for the plastic.

removing loose stuff is one thing, digging out boulders! - why not chip some holds as well?

In reply to Franco Cookson: It would surely affect the grade. The subjective grade will take into account danger and so the severity of the landing.

In reply to twm.bwen: iy, but why not demolish and re-grade- surely and E4 6b is better than an unclimbed E5 6b?

In reply to Franco Cookson: erm ive not been their but you probably need to start eating some spinach if you plan on doing so.

Its a local issue though on which locals who climb should decide on not the armchair climbers on here. Alternatively do it and see if anyone whos cabable of doing such a climb with the boulder there cares.
ta
Joe

In reply to JoeL 90: i would like to meet anyone who had climbed Grand Master Flash. Removing the boulder would make It a highball unfortunately. Ali Baba is fine how it is I think, really. But many people have broken bones from falling off.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,6906.0.html

In reply to Franco Cookson: As you get older and perhaps a little obsessed with grade ticking you'll discover a whole new side to climbing, dare I say a spiritual side to it. being out there at one with nature. NATURE. By f'ing around with the rocks at the base you've altered it, made it into a man made problem. As another poster said you may as well be pulling plastic.

There are pieces of rock nature destined no one to climb be it due to the sparsity of holds or due to the risks associated. If you can't get the risk of a landing out of your head then you are not destined to climb it. If you alter it, you then havn't climbed it.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Or we could just leave the crags as we find them, as best we can? (and no, I don't include gardening in this, as on the whole vegetation replaces itself a little faster than rock).

Just because it's unclimbed today doesn't mean it'll be unclimbed in the future. The spiky-landing-of-death was there long before us and should be there long after us. Who are we to deprive future generations of pointy fear?

S'like bolts. Just because it can't be climbed now doesn't mean, with advances in gear and technique, that it won't be climbed by someone better equipped or just plain bolder. Besides, if it's the landing that's the grade difference, than surely there's a bit of inflation going on. (working on the assumption that the removal of the SLOD hasn't actually affected the protection on the route. If you're going to deck out, you're going to deck out, regardless of what you're decking out on).

In reply to abarro81: so his argument is 'it's briggining it down to your level. This is true, but climbing is about enjoyment. is it not? And the 50 people in england that might be able to onsight Grand Master flash, I imagine would have little joy (teetering on 6b moves 20ft above a boulder) compared with the thousands that could attempt it (2oft above a mat). Maybe it does bring it down to your level, but climbing is about enjoyment and who honestly prefers doing something dangerous and easy to something hard and safe? The People who cruise 6c can find another problem can't they?

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Because it turns a classic death trap into a polished run of the mill saunter.

And its not ironic, its coincidental.

In reply to twm.bwen: Are you a red indian? Whats with all the sustainable spirituality- it's the worst arguement i've ever heard.

In reply to Will Hunt: i don't think any moors 6bs could become polished, run-of-the-,ill saunter.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
There are plenty of good climbs for those uncomfortably with onsighting 5c moves. This ruins the route for those people who find 5c easy and who enjoy a bit of a thrill. The world does not revolve around you and your climbing needs. Franco, you need to think more and type less. Much much less.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Really? As I say, as you get older and see the wider picture you'll understand.

In reply to Will Hunt: look at the picture and tell me who is going to onsight that? I think it's in classic rock, but never sees any onsight ascents.

In reply to twm.bwen: all I mean is, I got slightly higher than where i am in that pic and I could see a pocket. Without the boulder I would have gone for it- without mats, but instead I will return and top-rope it todeath and then solo up shitting my self.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Some more good ethics stated here;

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=83120

In reply to Anonymous: iy. Give it a go and tell me i'm wrong. It's bird-limed to the max and seriously green.

In reply to Franco Cookson: (above a boulder with no gear)

In reply to multijoy:
as on the whole vegetation replaces itself a little faster than rock

Look at the moors of northern england the trees never gre back on them. Also climber who remove veg usually intend for it to never come back onto the route as the ensuing increase in traffic wont allow this. Climbing is largely about the movement removing a rock and placing bolts doesn't affect this. People have ahuge influence on climbs from the melting of permafrost caused by clobal warming to cleaning veg out of overgrown climbs. Moving the rock will hardly have a major effect on either the rock (no doubt franco will come off worse and injure himself) or nature as he presumerbly doesnt intend on destroying it.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Alternatively we could just bolt the whole of England with 1m spaced bolts. Then everything would be safe and everyone could do everything!

Go sport climbing not soloing...

In reply to Franco Cookson:

The people who can't cruise 6c can find another problem... can't they?

In reply to Franco Cookson: Go with a stiff plastic brush after a damp day and the lichen should come off. Not a wire brush, unless it's the last resort and then be very gentle with it. But try a big stiff plastic brush first.

In reply to SecretSquirrel: i didnt think that one threw.

In reply to abarro81:
Cant agree with you there. Its not for any one person to say how it would or would not be better. It was climbed as a trad route and is thus given a trad grade.

I think that bouldering and trad are completely different when landings are concerned.

Franco, if you're looking at making it safe then why not just go all the way and chuck a top rope on it. Just wait until your a better climber.

In response to people finding 6b moves easy then I would reply that even I can onsight most 6a moves now (with the exception of jams) and cant remember the last time I fell off a 5c move. Im not a great climber. There are many people who post on here who are well capable of 6b moves onsight. I hope that soon I will be able to do them as well. Maybe once Im confident enough I will come and do Grand Master Flash. If that boulders not there making me nervous then I'll be wanting a serious chat. Until then, I'll stick with moves that I can do as should you.

In reply to Reaver2k: thats a crap idea. i'm talking about changing a death into a broken leg. Seems to make sense to me.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Plenty (and I mean plenty) of people could. E5 onsight isnt that special anymore. Perhaps its a shite crag?

In reply to Will Hunt: tell me when your goin and ill come along. I'll buy you a pint if you do it.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

of course its bringing it down to your level, go away train harder and then come back or like most people accept you can't do it in the style its been climbed before and leave it alone. Don't go changing the route just because you can't do it, surrly this would be as bad as chipping?

In reply to Will Hunt: it's scugdale. one of the best BOULDERING venues of the north.

In reply to Will Hunt:

I'm not necessarily advocating removing it, but if the FA is consulted and thinks it's a good idea and the local concensus is it would be good then Franco should seriously consider it.. Might be worth him finding out what other locals/the FA (if around) think. That ukb thread is def worth a read - some good points I think.

The thread has a bit RE stuff like the art of white hat wearing at curbar which used to be E5 6c, now V?..

even I can onsight most 6a moves now (with the exception of jams)

never underestimate the power of a solid 6a move when you're pumped...

In reply to Graeme Hammond: hardly. What if i left the block so people could role it back if they wished to have it there.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
May well be a few years or perhaps decades. Maybe not at all. I am content to not do it if I dont think I will be able to. I will tell you if and when I attempt it.

In reply to Will Hunt: goodo. ill be there.

In reply to abarro81: i might have a wee chat with the cleveland MC.

In reply to Anonymous:


'kin ell! Franco do not use a wire brush on sandstone! Wire brushers at Pex Hill generally leave without their brush or fingers. Let the witch hunt for the murderer of Breakaway continue!

In reply to Franco Cookson:

because not everyone can take a digger up there to move back every time someone whats to do the route properly

In reply to JoeL 90:

But the moment the traffic stops, it'll be back.

>Climbing is largely about the movement removing a rock and placing bolts >doesn't affect this.

For whom is the bolt placed and the rock moved? If it can't be climbed now, who's not to say it won't be climbed in the future as is?

>People have ahuge influence on climbs from the melting of permafrost >caused by clobal warming to cleaning veg out of overgrown climbs.

Well, I'll grant you the former, but I'd like to think that the two aren't especially comparable.

Personally, I like to leave things as I found them. If that means leaving a route until I can suck up the courage/m4d skillz to complete it, then so be it, even if that time is 'never'.

>Moving the rock will hardly have a major effect on either the rock (no >doubt franco will come off worse and injure himself) or nature as he >presumerbly doesnt intend on destroying it.

I imagine nature doesn't especially care, but I'd like to think that changing a route just because it doesn't suit isn't exactly the wisest of things to do.

In reply to Will Hunt: iy, well twas a bit of a joke. Well sort of a half-joke. I may well do. These crags are never visited anyway- nevermind an E4 5c above a boulder.

In reply to Will Hunt: iy's oright for you with you're imaculate, townie stomped grit, but here it's real climbing- dirty dangerous and awful. My anasanazis have an inch of filth on em! cause i dont just follow the chavs.

In reply to JoeL 90:



For you, maybe. Perhaps sport climbing and bouldering is more your thing? That's cool if it is but there are a great many people out there who climb because it pushes them to their mental limit and the buzz they get from topping out after bricking compels them to put themselves in that situation.

This whole thread seems to be revolving around people not understanding that people climb for different reasons. Just because a certain route/style of climbing is not suited to you it doesn't mean that this is the case for everyone and that the route should be altered for your benefit. Think of others and then go and do the routes that suit you or not at all.

In reply to Will Hunt: CLimbing is about 'The Bastard' of slogin up routes; hating every minute and then at the end getting some sicko buzz that makes you go back. I hate climbing. I love being a climber. Bouldering is differant- it's about being gay.

















OJ boulderings cool. Just not the same.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Contrary to popular belief its not a bad thing to climb at popular crags. Stanage has some incredible climbs. Think FBD, the Unconquerables etc etc. Is it so bad that I choose to climb at a location where the rock is clean, solid and of good quality. Crags tend to be popular because the climbing is good, not just because they are easily accessible. I dont seem to remember seeing any chavs at Standing Stones but then I dont remember seeing any inspiring, clean climbs either. The same goes for Upperwood. Dovestones looked alright from where I was. Must get out there.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
>I hate climbing. I love being a climber.


Do the chicks dig it?

In reply to Will Hunt: Clemmitt's, now there's a crag. i'm sure that if Scugdale was in Fryup it would be just as popular. Stanage is popular as it's next to sheffield. It's not that good. A few big bits and alot of small choss.

In reply to Will Hunt: they do.lol. If you know how to use it.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

You forgot to mention also that:
1. The rock is of an excellent quality if not polished in places.
2. There is solid gear to be found on many routes.
3. There is a mixture of both excellent trad and excellent bouldering.
4. The climbs there have a huge span of grades.
5. Belays in abundance.
6. Routes can be found in almost every style. Roofs, cracks, slabs...etc etc.

In reply to Will Hunt: if the definition of a good crag that it is well protected then why do you want the boulder to stay? To claim that stanage is better?

In reply to Will Hunt: Personally i like long routes in the montains it doesn't stop me from liking the movement as well as the mental challenge. However i go climbing because i like climbing (if that makes sense?) the feeling of climbing well and the feeling of doing things i find hard and the beautiful surroundings make it even better.

What Francos proposing isn't simply wrong its a grey area wich should be discussed probably not by us punters on here but by the locals and those with some knoweledge of the climb. There are many routes which have been changed by humans. People dont refuse to climb at millstone or go round to the houses of ex-quarry workers and have a go or the aid climbers that made such great routes. Equally people still use the chockstones on many climbs which have been inserted by people to make them easer/safer. Theres no right or wrong answer to this its all about common sense and discussion.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Like I say. Different people, different reasons. If boldness is your bag then Stanage has plenty to offer. Stanage is merely being used as the archetypal crowded crag, the same things can be applied to many other destinations. Think The Roaches/Hen Cloud/Ramshaw.

In reply to JoeL 90: for 17 you are very wise. Sure you're not 77?

In reply to Will Hunt: all chossy grit. Full of chavs. DOn't get me wrong though, I dont mind it for a good solo, but I don't like places where you have to take your bag around with you. Was really odd at stanage. Thieves? Climbers?

In reply to Franco Cookson: No ones ever said that to me before forgettful and lacking common sense is the usual assesment. i dont know whether to be flattered or worried

In reply to JoeL 90:
Fair enough to the local discussion thing. Wonder what they would say.
As to all the Millstone stuff I think this is a different matter. Its all a bit pre modern trad ethic. What we were discussing here is the changing of an existing route in order to make it into a different route (yes the landing is part of the route).

In reply to Will Hunt: Well i am sort of a member of the CMC. I imagine they would be oright about it??? barely anyone in it climbs E5 anyway. It would be a bastard moving that block anyway.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Not sure how meticulously you keep your logbook but if it is up to date then you have never been to The Roaches, Hen Cloud or Ramshaw. Please don't make a judgement about something you know nothing about. The rock at all of these destinations is utterly impeccable. I have never had anything stolen while at the crag and often have to walk along past all the routes I have done at the end of the day picking up various things I have left. Perhaps you look like an easy target or are too worrisome?

In reply to Will Hunt: there's scunners at stanage.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Perhaps they are not the locals to ask?

In reply to Will Hunt: What would you say to removing the boulder and then replacing it like a bouldering mat? Im aware of the issue many existing routes are changed and have been in recent years with retro bolting and chockstones millstone may be an out of date example but aiding with hammers still happens in many places. None of these things are right or wrong; hence the ethical debates which occur as a result of questions sufrrounding them.

In reply to Will Hunt: I know one local who climbs E5 and I know everyone. He's more into sport now anyway.

In reply to JoeL 90: when I dry tooled right unconquerable noone seemed to mind.

In reply to JoeL 90:
Ethics vary from place to place hence the need for local chat. Where do they still use hammers in the UK on a regular basis? Top roping is accepted practice at Pex but not really elsewhere.

In reply to Will Hunt: we still aid up north and glue on bolt-ons.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
>

FFS franco, the other week i had to give you shit for being borderline racist, now you're coming out with homophobic comments... have a word with yourself will you, before you turn into some andy capp style northern cliché.

FWIW, you put a mat underneath an E4, its automatically no longer an E4... it becomes a 5c boulder problem.

In reply to Dom Whillans: 6b. and if you read the thread you'd see i have no intention of using a mat. And even if i did, you would be wrong- softening groud doesn't make it a boulder prob.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

You do have some controversial borderline plain silly ideas don't you!

In reply to Franco Cookson:

still no need to label things as "gay" franco

in general i'd say leave the route as it was found. but if you can get a local consensus that says move it, then its worth more than the musings of everyone here.

ditto if they say leave it be

cheers
gregor

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: if they say move it i will. if they say don't............

In reply to Dom Whillans:

Do you do many routes above a pad? I'm presuming not or otherwise you wouldn't make such a stupid statement.

In reply to Will Hunt: i wasn't referring to the uk, the only examples i could think of on hard rock id sron ulladale though i have very limited knowledge of aiding in the Uk or indeed anywhere. ethics aren't a set thing, thats why they aren't called rules. They vary from case to case and one area doesn't adopt the same approach on all issues. Top roping is an accepted practice anywhere where leading is accepted. People dont really care about it in real life its just that occasionally on here some bored person decides to start yet another boring ethics debate about a dull subject.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

...then i hope you'll leave it be...

In reply to abarro81:

i do NO routes above pads... i use my pad to boulder with, to sit on during lunch and to sleep on at festivals. when i go climbing i just climb. if you start a route above a pad its just the same as a side runner - it lowers the adjectival grade.

In reply to Reaver2k: i dont really have an oppinion. I just potter along doing my own thing and find it funny that people get so upset about wire brushes and moving blocks. I think its time people asessed what came out of their mouths. Imagine what a non-climber would think- "i don't use crash pads because I get more street cred if I don't". sounds like a load of balls to me.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: .............i'll nick it and sell it.

In reply to Dom Whillans: Does that make centurion on the ben just highball V0 if you put a bouldering mat underneath? or does this weird rule only apply to routes graded 'E4'.

I think when accusing people of racism and homophobia its worth keeping it in context. The word gay has several meanings and is now more a childish insult rather than homophobic abuse when used in that way.

In reply to Dom Whillans: your immaturity and lack of thinking even suppasses my self.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Franco, if you hate climbing, what the hell are you doing with your life?

I'd advise you to learn to find some enjoyment in actually climbing, or stop doing it. To my mind climbing just so you can say you're 'a climber' is a bit pathetic really.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Now thats an insult.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

no point

you wouldnt get much trying to flog a northern rock...

In reply to Alex Roddie: you didn't really get it did you? i didn't mean so i could boast to other people. I meant so i could sit at the end of the day and think I bastarded my way up that line and got to the top. I dont enjoy during, but i enjoy hindsight (?).

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Consideration must also be given to the landowner, which I expect in this case, isn't you.
We've heard of problems arising with climbers tree felling at Rivelin which upset the landowner and could have led to access problems.
Now you are suggesting something similar.

You move a boulder or chip the rock because you cant climb the route? Either way its a no-no!

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: OMG. thats awful.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Sounds like I did get it.

What's the point of climbing if you don't enjoy it while you're doing it? Fair enough, I'll accept that on some routes the post-climb enjoyment outweighs the actual climb, but the day I stop enjoying climbing while I'm doing it will be the day I give up.

Perhaps you should try some different forms of climbing until you find one you enjoy?

In reply to Neil Conway: too late. I've just been and done it.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

yes, it is, isnt it..?

what a double act... you set em up, ill knock em down...

we could be the next er.... cannon and ball...?



cheers
gregor

In reply to Neil Conway: Its not that simple though. There have been many cases like this which people accept it others where they haven't its not simple wrong. It could well be beneficial if done in the right way.

In reply to Alex Roddie: I enjoy soloing easier routes during, but after it's like i've been on a walk. Whereas hard stuff does summat to your head. Maybe you should try summat harder?

In reply to JoeL 90:

context is everything... your comparing of some 20 foot highball with a major multi pitch is pretty pathetic to say the least.

the word gay does have two meanings - the weasel-like excusing of homophobia by just saying its a childish insult is not on. using the word gay as an insult belittles a rather large population of this country.

In reply to JoeL 90:

By bulldozin' the lot! haha!

In reply to Alex Roddie: Didn't you just post something on another thread about not wanting to do too much trad and bouldering cos you feared youd like it too much?

In reply to Dom Whillans: it's alot higher than 20ft.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

quality thread, franco... anyway, i'm off tae bed, happy bulldozing...

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: i was quite proud myself. This is what UKC misses since the mounths of insults.

In reply to JoeL 90:

Nope, I said that I didn't want to get into single-pitch and bouldering too much because it would take up time I could be spending in the mountains.

In reply to Franco:
I live in Norwich. it's all very well saying 'try something harder' but just wait until you can only go climbing once a month, other than indoors.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Explain why you don't just carve a wire placement next to the crux?

In reply to Alex Roddie: that wont happen, unless I decide I only want to climb part-time. There's something called commitment and i have it at the moment. I've been climbing everyday for the last 5 days and am going climbing tomorrow- 7 hour days. You could do the same if you made sacrifices.

In reply to Franco Cookson: the landings fine Fran! Its flat!

In reply to whispering nic: cause i only have one wire that i found and i dont believe in usin em caus e they get in the way.

In reply to IanJackson: Grash? you pissed again young Jackson?

In reply to Alex Roddie:


You think Dave Macleod enjoyed taking those falls over and over again on Rhapsody?

Climbing at your limit is rarely fun at the time. It is scary (fear of falling and/or fear of failure) and demands guts and tenacity to keep putting yourself up there in those situations. The rewards, however, can't be adequately explained to someone who's never done it.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

I could do, but those sacrifices would be in the order of failing my degree and ending up with no money, because travel to any mountainous area is expensive!

Believe me I would love to climb more often, but it's just not going to happen at the moment. Besides, I'm actually perfectly happy pottering around at lower grades, and prefer to get my thrill from being in the mountains.

In reply to Dom Whillans:
Your just too worked up about it all chill out. bigotary shouldn't occur but ffs cill out a little about amusing national stereotypes and childish nonsense.


You just made a genral statement which applied to no specific route and also mis-understood the post you replied to. It was very unclear is every routes adjective grade not the same if theres a bouldering mat underneath? if not which ones? Ok the point was extreme but what you said was just plain silly, man.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Umm, I guess I could sacrifice my degree and climb full time. I doubt it'd be worth it in the long run though.

In reply to Franco Cookson: it,s a decent crag (not much for the true boulderer)okay for soloing (there is a difference) and thats about the top and bottom of it.

In reply to Alex Roddie: you speak of love. If you loved a girl ( i mean really loved a girl) would you leave her to pass your degree? No you'd be a tramp like me. I may swallow my words and become a suit wearing fool, but at least ill admitt i gave up climbing, not pretend to be obsessed when i obviously have it as a hobby. Nothing wrong with it, just know where you are.

In reply to Andy Hobson: iy, well if you were comitted enough you'd be happy to live till tomorrow- especially if we don't move that sodding boulder from under grand master flash.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Thats some impressive commitment. Is it half-term for you at the moment?
I was a bit annoyed to be ill last week over half term only managed 6 from 9 and didn't climb too well. Still nice to get out in such lovely weather.

In reply to JoeL 90: iy, tis. should be working and doing scholl work like. still- it'll be reet.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Fair do's, could you put some rubber crumb matting in so I don't have to carry the mat up?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Let me get this straight ... you're suggesting that if I was committed enough to climbing, I'd give up my degree and climb full time? Why? What would be the point, when I know that in a year or two I'll be living closer to the hills and will be able to climb more often?

I understand what you mean, but let's be clear: you've made a commitment to climbing full-time, and I've made a commitment to pass my degree, because I've worked damned hard for three years. You wouldn't break your commitment to climbing. I'm not going to break my commitment either.

(For the sake of interest, I have no intention of becoming a suit-wearing fool either. Just because you've been to University doesn't mean you have to become a drone. I have no intention of working in computer science when I graduate.)

In reply to Franco Cookson:

You are coming across extremely arrogant on this. You have climbed a bit, you think that "up north" you do proper climbing and that you "know what climbings about". You know someone that once did an E5. Great. Bully for you.

Your original point was interesting and I think is worth thinking about. Is a death-on-a-stick highball worth repeating, or if you move a nasty block will it open it up to the masses?

However, you have the arrogance of youth and you should stop and consider. You haven't climbed in that many places and you don't know it all, though you think you do. Once you move a boulder who is really going to replace it "for the full tick"? Thats ridiculous.

popular crags are popular mostly because they are good, not because they are near to Sheffield. I feel a bit depressed at Stanage in summer at the popular end - so I don't go there then. If you think Stanage is crap then you are an idiot. If you are trying to make an arrogant point (which is what I think you are doing) then you are misinterpreting what others have said.

In its place, some moving of boulders is sensible and fair enough. Not whole scale though and CERTAINLY not unilaterally or without consent of the FA, IMHO.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Commitment being climbing all day every day... when you're on holiday?

Give up school and try and become a professional climber, then you have commitment (Disclaimer: I suggest you don't try this).

In reply to Alex Roddie: ok. twas a wee bit of a rant. I'm sure you're a lovely person behind your shoplifting exterior.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Shoplifting?? *is confused!*

In reply to JoeL 90:

that doesn't make much sense, is it past your bed time? i'm not going to chill out if someone is using prejudicial language; that kind of attitude is very dangerous. i have to challenge it.

i think you're being quite arrogant when you say that i don't understand the posts i reply to... you put a mat under any trad route, you lower the grade. its simple. i don't think you have a grasp of trad ethics.

In reply to Reaver2k: im doing a-levels then im off. climbing. I only don't do it at the moment because i can happily climb in the evenings.

In reply to Alex Roddie:

Out of curiousity, what don't you like about computer science? I'm going to study it next year and wondering what I'm in for!

In reply to Alex Roddie: sorry didn't read the thread, misunderstood. Lots of people have jobs they dont enjoy maybe the rewards of these are a similar feeling to the rewards you get from suffering on a climb. I wouldn't really know as i do like the climbing part however, its is a fairly special feeling once you complete something thats pushed you far enough that you maybe aren't enjoying it at times.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

How is that different from Alex doing his Degree?

In reply to Reaver2k: no differant, but im committed to climbing and not a-levels he's committed to degree but not climbing. So his origional point about being committed to climbing was untrue.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

it must be fate!

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Oh god thats hilarious. You berate somebody for not "making sacrifices" to go climbing more, then it turns out you are on half term and should be doing school work! Ha ha!

Grow up, boy. Then you might learn about life and sacrifices. If you truly decide to make a sacrifice then fine - but don't you dare try belittling "suit wearing fools" for not being "rad" enough.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


I see you have descended into trolling for quite a while now. I will just have to content myself with the following:

I CANNOT BELIEVE WHAT A MINDLESS MINGEFLAP CUMT YOU ARE.

Im off to bed. Night all.

In reply to JoeL 90:

It's never going to be beneficial if it is against the wishes of the landowner.
We don't own the crags, we just enjoy them. They are not ours to alter.

(The FA doesnt have the right to sanction the re-landscaping of the crag either)

In reply to Franco Cookson:

How the hell do you know that he is not "committed" to climbing? And why does that make you better anyway? If you were committed to climbing you would sack off your A levels and do it full time.

Admit it, you are all mouth, no trousers, spineless and immature.

In reply to Will Hunt:

LMAO. Good to see the youth of today still can laugh at their own. Nice one.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Wrong, I'm committed to both my degree AND climbing. The trick is finding a balance. I think I'm doing a fair job.

Franco, there's a difference between being committed to climbing, and being committed to climbing as often as possible and constantly pushing yourself to try harder routes. While there is nothing wrong with the latter course, it's not the be-all and end-all. I would consider myself a committed mountaineer even though I might only get out ten to thirteen times a year.

In reply to mozzer: i am all mouth. I have ronhills a spine and not really that immature.

In reply to Alex Roddie: like I say- tis fine. I just wonder why I get out 5 times a week in summer and others less than once?

In reply to Reaver2k:

Here at UEA, it's pants! The course is shockingly badly organised.

I've also grown to hate programming. I was never naturally good at it anyway, but after about a year I realised that there was nothing I found interesting about computers any more. This course kills any enthusiasm you may have for computing. About a third of our year dropped out and those of us who are left are now cynical and twisted, and only a small percentage (the hardcore nerds) actually want to go out there and become programmers.

It's a pretty grim struggle ... but I've only got a couple of months left, so best see it through.

In reply to Alex Roddie: or you could go climbing?lol

In reply to Franco Cookson:

To be honest Franco, at 16 you don't have many other commitments or responsibilities.

I have a job, studying, work on my novel that's being neglected because I don't have time, a house to look after, bills to pay, a partner, and a student loan to pay off. In a year or so I'll have even more to worry about. Real adults can't just climb ALL the time you know unless they make massive sacrifices in other areas of their lives.

It's possible to be committed to climbing without being out on the rock 24/7, you know.

In reply to Dom Whillans:

Us 77 yr olds dont have bedtimes. Good for you...


What would be the new grade for centurion with pads. What your suggesting is a rule not an eithic dont mix the two. It is also an incorrect one which cant be applied to all climbs.

Also im not being arrogant. You thought franco wished to use a pad underneath. He hadn't stated this anywhere there for you miss understood. Hypocritical would be a more accurate label.
ta
Joe

In reply to Alex Roddie: is it? I would beg to differ.

In reply to JoeL 90: i actually think 87.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Alright then, give me your definition of being 'committed to climbing'.

In reply to JoeL 90: and where abouts in west yorkshire you from? anywhere near clecketon?

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Did you know that Geoffrey Winthrop-Young only used to get out once a month, or even less often? Archer Thomson and O.G.Jones were weekend climbers. Would you say these giants of the turn of the last century weren't 'committed' enough?

In reply to Alex Roddie: only working to sustain a climbing life and not having a serious partner. The likelyhood of being dead by 30.

In reply to Alex Roddie: what was their best onsight?

In reply to Neil Conway: The right way would imply consultation with the landowner. they may not be ours to alter in your opinion but most climbers beleive they are there for the altering. Bolts, in-situ pegs/threads, inserted chockstones, cleaning, eroding through touching and quarrying. re-landscaping isn't a bad thing either. Are you against the afforestation of areas where forest used to naturally grow?
ta
Joe

In reply to Franco Cookson: If you were really committed to climbing, you'd stop wasting your time posting shite on here and piss off and do some deadhangs or something. Just give it a rest mate!

In reply to JoeL 90: away, its a rock. I wouldn't like to meet farmers down your way. Just give it a sledgehammer.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Between them GWY and George Mallory climbed the hardest recorded routes in Britain. They, and their friends of the Pen y Pass and Wasdale Head climbing community, invented trad climbing. George Mallory was climbing HVS 5a at the peak of his powers before the First World War. They were some of the most talented climbers to have ever lived, not to mention superb all-round mountaineers who quite literally put up all of the first climbs in North Wales, not to mention built up an impressive Alpine record.

And I'm sure you've heard of George Mallory's little trips to Everest? Not bad for an occasional climber in the early '20s.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Not too far i suppose, Hebden Bridge.
G'night - entertaining oringinal post. Good work!

In reply to JoeL 90: iy, tailed off in to bull later. im off to bed anorl. chow all.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

You're an idiot, I'm with Will,

Night.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

So you prioritise climbing above all else? Fair enough. I would argue that you don't have to put climbing right at the top to be committed to it. There are levels of commitment, you know!

For example, I have a serious partner and she is my number one priority. Shortly behind that comes establishing some security for us in the future. Climbing comes a close third.

Maybe once you grow up a little and meet a person you can commit to, you'll realise that perhaps climbing isn't your number one priority after all.

In reply to Alex Roddie:

Looks like I will have to hope the course I go on is better organised! Sounds like a lot of fun, at the moment...

In reply to JoeL 90: you brought up centurion, i didn't. you want to carry a mat up there? good for you. i was talking about some pissy 20' sandstone effort in yorkshire, the kind of height where a mat would be of use. taking a mat up the ben would be as stupid as leading brad pit with double ropes. i would say its an ethic not to claim a route that you had emasculated with a pad. if i was to go and climb long john's slab with a pad and no rope i haven't soloed an E3, i've soloed a 5c.

In reply to Reaver2k:

To be fair, if our course had been well-run it would have been a lot more interesting, dare I say it even fun at points! It's also worth bearing in mind that I was never wildly enthusiastic about the subject beforehand. It'll help if you start the course already being quite into programming and software development. You're less likely to become a hard-boiled cynic like me if you take that approach. =)

In reply to Dom Whillans: Where do people stand on using their ropes as pads?

In reply to Alex Roddie:

Did a fair amount of Java programming at college, but will need to brush up on it. On that note, I am very enthusiastic about programming so maybe that will tip it in my favour! Course looks good! Fair amount of maths, fair amount of programming, and quite a lot of AI which sounds interesting also!

In reply to Reaver2k:

Sounds like you're in a very good position to make the most of the course, then.

I started off with some knowledge of BBC BASIC, an A-level in IT, no software development knowledge at all, and sod all else! Modern programming was alien to me and I had to learn java from scratch. I grew to hate it. If your course is anything like ours was, you'll be programming everything in Java and by the time the third year winds in, you'll be writing thousands of lines of code and creating complex programs for processing huge volumes of data. Spending hours debugging faulty algorithms nearly drove me completely mad! =)

But basically some background knowledge and enthusiasm will prepare you quite well and make you more likely to survive without wanting to shoot the next computer you see. Enjoying and being good at Maths will be a DEFINITE advantage!

Good luck!!

In reply to Alex Roddie:

Just two quick points for the benefit of the person doing computer science next year. Just because you've done computer science doesn't mean you become a suit wearing drone. Hell, with my hair I just look silly in a suit. I'm quite happy in a black t-shirt, jeans and my boots thank you very much.

Also becoming board of computers is a natural side of studying computer science for some people. I couldn't care less about actual real physical computers that you read about in 'Computer Weekly' or play games on anymore. Yet I still want to work with them.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

It is completely unnacceptable to change landings.

The landing is as much part of the route as the route itself. Making the route more 'pleasant' by altering the landing is no different to making it more pleasant by improving holds or making it more safe by adding bolts. It also has nothing to do with the first ascentionist, it's how it is.

However, this doesn't mean people haven't been selfishly doing it for years.

We already have piles of pads and teams of spotters to keep things sterile, if it's not safe enough for you already, then go indoors.

In reply to andi turner:

The UKB thread was much better.

In reply to Sean_J:

you want to stand on your rope? fine by me; but i'll never climb with you! the dirt, grit and crap would seriously mess with the strength of the rope.

In reply to Franco Cookson: I despair. I just despair.

In reply to Franco Cookson: By the way, anyone who claims to be so "committed to climbing", but claims that they "don't believe in finger boards" is seriously naive. Like any other sport, to take it as seriously as you rather naively claim to, you have to train. I'm at uni. I climb three or four days a week up to VS, and I still get all my work done. I rarely climb anything particularly unsafe. I still get what I want out of climbing, without dicking about with landings and wire-brushing myself new holds when things get a bit too hard. Why are people so obsessed with being able to climb the next grade up? And let's face it - chicks don't dig climbing if it involves screwing a big plastic handhold onto their door-frame, going away and leaving them every weekend, or their feller falling off and killing himself.

In reply to davepwsmith: mine does. lol. And whats wrong with grade chasing? I recon Macleod grade chases. If you want to be a great climber you have to aim at grades to some extent.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:


Even when the BMC do it under boulders at Stanage? Don't be silly, it's a simple question that like most has a complex answer that varies with context.

Moving boulders on a beach to fill rock pools... fine

Digging holes at a popular crag to fill in other holes... pointless and you're right, bordering on vandalism.

Trundling a spikey boulder from under a new or rarely frequented line/problem... your call, you have to weigh up the harm you're doing against the good.

jk

In reply to all: i'm going to go for another attempt soon anyway so if i land on the ;spikey boulder' and hurt myself- tis your fault. lol

In reply to jkarran:


Eh?

So good for climbing can outweigh what is good for the environment!

Come on you only have to look at many peak crags to see the decimating affects of climbing on the flora and fauna. OK passive damage, is just an inevitable consequence of people having access to the hills, but direct deliberate damage must be considered unacceptable, especially when undertaken by a single person/group.

If following discussions with landowners, NPA, BMC and other interested stakehodlers that the alteration of the landscape may be justified* then I think you can make a case.

*such an example would be a boulder on a path which is preventing the building of a sustainable path that will reduce further erosion.

I am suprised that climbers who argue that dogs shouldn't be allowed at crags due to the damage they do to wildlife, think it's Ok to mass garden/dig out the base of climbs/dig out boulders or in any other way affect the ecosystem surrounding climbs.

However, personally I think removing parts of the landing to make a safe landing isn't on, and this comes from someone who has broken a metatarsel falling awkwardly onto boulders. That's life. I climbed the route above boulders, I saw the boulders, made the judgement and slipped. Many other places provide safe landings that we don't have to alter the landscape.

Vegetation in upland areas does not grow back quickly at all. How many f you have seen aircraft wrecks on the mountains. 60 years on and little remains, just the impact scar where the plants have struggled to recolonise.

In reply to andi turner:

Great post, I needn't have posted as you summed it up perfectly.

In reply to IainRUK: And I thought people would have agreed with me..............

In reply to Franco Cookson:

True to an extent, but I think imagination and originality are probably more important in balance. E6 is a hard grade but a lot of people can lead at that level. What sets one E6 leader apart from the others would be style, imagination in visiting new areas and opening up new lines, and doing new things in the mountains.

I don't think it's possible to be a great all-round climber without being a mountaineer as well.

In reply to IainRUK: Why are people bothered about the environment? We've already foyked it all up. Saving one millapeed's habbitat isn't going to put right the damge that millions of tons of CO2 does. The oceans will wash the millepeed away anyway, when they rise.

In reply to Alex Roddie: WHat experience do you have to make such a comment?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

No personal experience because I don't climb hard.

But I think part of what makes (say) Dave MacLeod an awesome climber is that he's good in all areas. If he could climb E11 trad but had never touched an ice axe in his life, never climbed a mountain, a sport route or boulder problem, he would be very much a one-trick horse.

There's nothing wrong with specialising in one area and being good at it, but I don't think you could claim to be a great all-round climber.

In reply to davepwsmith:


Has it crossed your mind that your experience of climbing would be totally different if someone before you hadn't been along wire-brushing and 'dicking about'.

I don't mean that as a personal attack on you but if you only ever climb in popular areas it's far from obvious that your 'natural' crags are, like it or not, very much man-made environments.
jk

In reply to jkarran: indeed. At one time even Stanage and Scugdale were under weeds and choss. I talked to some of the pioneers that developed Scugdale and they said when they arrived it was in an awful state. This country has far more great crags than it is know for, it's just people can't be arsed to clean them.

In reply to Alex Roddie: i agree, but he'd still be an awsome rock climber. What he does at the moment is truly amazing. (even if he's never been to the moors)

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Right, so do you think Ben Nevis isn't a great climbing venue just because someone hasn't vacuumed and wire-brushed the whole face? Do you think maybe all the loose rock in the Alps ought to be bagged up and used for rockeries? Better glue that snow in place as well, it looks like it might avalanche.

What a moronic comment. Being clean and tidy doesn't make a great crag.

In reply to IainRUK:


Well done... you've correctly weighed up the consequences of people further changing popular peak crags. Read my post I did not say it is OK, I said that it is a complex situation and that the answer varies with context... you chose the an area that is already well cleaned up by previous generations and currently under massive pressure from a huge number of users.

Now pick a different scenario, I'll go with one I know: A rarely used bouldering wall in a rarely frequented area, it has several engine sized boulders and some sharp spikes in/on the floor below it (and everywhere else around). Trundle them a few meters back, dig out the spikes and tramp down the turf to leave a grassy lawn and some boulders a few metres from where they fell. What harm is done?
jk

In reply to Alex Roddie: so you claim a clean crag does not make a better crag? you're deluded beyond repair.

In reply to Franco Cookson: May recomend Danby Crag then. Its a great little outcrop, nice rock- just got three foot of moss on it and if you dont break your leg getting to the bottom you deserve a meddel.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

I disagree. Ben Nevis would not be a better crag if it was 'clean'. Cleaning up long mountain routes, getting rid of the loose rock, weeds and dodgy holds, would be an intrusion.

Franco, how much proper climbing in the mountains have you done? I'm happy to bow down to your superior knowledge of high-graded, short problems on little rocks in the Moors, but I'd like to hear what experience you have of long, traditional, damp routes in Wales or the Lakes.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
After reading this i assume its a troll of epic proportions !
Perhaps we should move the plantation boulders to the climbing works so we are in a safe environment watched over by first aiders ! while were at it lets pinch some from Font, the French wont mind!

This is the most moronic thing i've heard this year, thats why there un repeated or have few ascents Franco, its about the mental/physical challenge of a leg snapping boulder.
If it wasn't there the route would be a polished run of the mill one that every man and his tope rope had been on! Lets leave the crags as we find them please.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Basically Franco, I would suggest that if you're not good enough to climb something without modifying the route, you should go back and practice until you are good enough.

In reply to Alex Roddie: they're all on my logbook. I haven't done that much, but a bit. When you say Ben Nevis, do you mean for winter? I'm not talking aout scrambles i'm talking about short crags and multi pitches. I would have liked to see that Ullrich guy repeat Impact Day under a film of green. It's impossible to climb even medium difficulty trad under a film of green. I don't see your point. Are you saying that places like Castle rock of triermain or shepperd's Crag would be better if they were covered in vegitation?

In reply to Alex Roddie: i'm not talking about hold chipping i'm talking about moving a boulder- it's not about difficulty, only safety. Like I say, I doubt anyone has onsighted it. Would UKC prefer that every acsentionist worked it?

In reply to Franco Cookson: while your moving boulders perhaps you could put some in situ rubber mats down ?

In reply to Stash: I see you're from north yorkshire, have you climbed Grand Master Flash?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

I can't be arsed looking through your whole logbook, but I would suggest you try out some really old-fashioned routes on Lliwedd or the Carneddau ... routes graded HVD with as much grass and choss as clean rock. Cleaning up routes like that would be ridiculous. Yet they are classic, revered climbs, many of them a hundred years old or more and put up by some of the best climbers of their generation.

For the Ben I'm talking summer and winter climbing. It's a great climbing venue because it is a wild, big mountain crag, not because the rock's perfect. I would suggest that proper climbing is about dealing with objective dangers, not modifying the route until the danger doesn't exist.


So you'd call a Lliwedd VDiff a scramble, would you? Dream on, it may be 'only' a VDiff but it's nothing like the sort of short, sunny little crags you usually play around on.


Traditional routes were climbed in nailed boots. You can climb almost anything in nailed boots. The idea that the rock should be clean only came about because rubber-soled shoes are lethal in the wet.


Not necessarily. I'm saying that it should not be necessary to clean up a route if the route is of high quality anyway. I take climbs as they are.

In reply to Alex Roddie:

Have you actually climbed much on Ben Nevis?

In reply to Franco Cookson:
does it matter? I aint climbed New Statesmen either but im thinking of leading it after i chip some better holds ! it would make it safer! (Im not going to chip anything apart from a spud so dont worry, unless you like potatoes)

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Not much, I'm relatively new to climbing in Scotland. I still disagree with cleaning up mountain routes, though.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Franco, take a deep breath.

Moving the boulder at the base of the route does change the route, it changes it's nature, from a serious solo to an amenable highball? Surely you see that? You've changed that route so you feel happy doing it, you've made it easier.

Don't you like having stuff you can't do/are too scared to do? I do, it gives me stuff to aspire to and dream about. Life would be a bit boring if you could do everything straight away.

Get better/stronger/braver and then solo it above the boulder, loving every minute of it!

(for someone who says he doesn'y use a mat, there seems to be quite a few in the photos of you )

In reply to Alex Roddie: you name a handful of easy routes. Some of my worst climbing has been in the lakes. Me and my mate climbed up the face of great end when we were 14, picking a line that looked good. It must be one of the biggest and most mountain-type route in the lakes, but it was wank. Why? cause it had no runners and was covered in moss. I'm not only a small summer crag lad. seen as you cant be arsed to look through my log book eres a few places i've been:

Castle Rock
Pavey Ark
pulldoubh crags
great gable
Scarfel
Shepperd's
Alot of stuff in the alps
nethermost cove
Sheffield Pike
Gowbarrow
Eagle Crag
Hodge Close
Raven Crag- (corvus Crag)
Woden's Face

It might not be that much, but i do have some experience.

In reply to Alex Roddie: what so you are qualified to say that mountain crags are better left to the birds, because you haven't climbed on them? I think you would be better just voting '1s' on all my photos like other people, rather than engaging in convosation.

In reply to galpinos: iy, lol. If you notice there are only photos of me soloing- because there's only ever me and dave. This is why we use mats. I understand though. What you say makes sense. I think i'll wait (or work it).I'm not going to move the blockanywho as I fancy the challenge now.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

And it'll be all the sweeter when you top out!

(it's rare that I'm told the I make sense!)

In reply to galpinos:
I'm told the I make sense!)

o dear. I see why now. Your point is sensible. Im willing to accept sensible points, but 'SAVE THE SHREWS' is the most ridiculous argument ive ever heard.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

like someone said earlier Franco by altering these routes to suit "your" needs your just cheating yourself. Get stronger, climb harder and ENJOY it don't get caught up in the politics that surround ethics. just dont spoil someone elses ambitions in the process by altering the crags that EVERYONE has the right to use

In reply to Franco Cookson:

>that wont happen, unless I decide I only want to climb part-time. There's something called commitment and i have it at the moment. I've been climbing everyday for the last 5 days and am going climbing tomorrow- 7 hour days. You could do the same if you made sacrifices.

mate, you sound ridiculous.

You still live with your mum, yes?

In a few years you will realise that being committed to something to the exclusion of all else, is easy when you don't have to worry about putting a roof over your head, or bread on the table.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Who said save the shrews?

In reply to plexiglass_nick: i put bread on the table- well potatoes. I do sound ridiculous though, you have a point.

In reply to Alex Roddie:

Well, if you like "loose rock, weeds and dodgy holds", I can point out a few routes on Ben Nevis for you to do. They were a pile of sh*ite and so dangerous, I never recorded them.

Maybe if you do a few quality mountain route, you may change your mind.

In reply to IainRUK: I can't find the exact post, but some hippie was on about not damaging Fauna and Flora.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Hippies ?
Are you one of those Charvers?

In reply to IainRUK: I hate half term. Last week all the kids were kicking around the corner shop, trying to get me to buy 'em fags and cheap vodka. now they're all indoors on the internet.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Franco, I cannot get over what an impudent little moronic tw*t you are. The route in question is given a trad grade and is therefore about both difficulty AND safety the latter of which is intrinsically linked to the boulders presence. You change the boulder, you change the route. It is no longer Granmaster Flash. Noone has onsighted Indian Face yet though there are many thousands physically good enough. Its only Fr7b+. Perhaps we should rechip those bomber gear placements so that it might get onsighted sooner? You dont seem to be able to grasp that rock climbing has a future and that just because you are not good enough it doesn't mean that others aren't good enough either. When someone talented enough can be arsed to go to this crag the route may well get onsighted. Maybe it will even make the UKC news section.

And as for your pathetic, naive jibes at Alex Roddie I think you'll find that he isn't as blessed as you are and has to live in a place called "The Real World". You see Franco, when you grow up into a big boy and you stop living with Mumsy and Pappa you may find that you have to pay these things called "Bills" and "Taxes". These things require "money" which, if your parents know whats good for you, will no longer be supplied so readily by Mumsy and Pappa. You too will have to get a job and once you have become a little less naive you'll find that the climbing lifestyle is harder to sustain than you think.

In reply to Norrie Muir:


I have a very old-fashioned view of climbing and tend to enjoy traditional routes more. I'm sure I would enjoy mountain routes of quality but I also enjoy slime, grass and choss.

In reply to Alex Roddie: As I said to someone before. "your lack of thinking even suppasses my self."

In reply to Alex Roddie: Have yo ever been to the moors?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Denbigh, totley, blackamoor, Rannoch?

which one?

And by the way I am the least hippyish person I know. I just laugh at climbers double standards of 'save the environment - erm unless we want to climb it'..

..I appreciate the fact that my outdoor activites damage nature, as much as I can I abide by the old adage of 'leave only footprints take only photographs'.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
it doesn't matter! I bet he hasn't been to the moon, but i bet if he did he wouldn't brush out neil armstrongs footprints because they were in the way of his space walk!!!!!!!!!!

In reply to IainRUK: my moto's-
"leave only peg scared cracks and litter, take only owt of value".

In reply to Franco Cookson:

I have no wish to, thanks. Piddling around on little rocks doesn't appeal when there are better things to climb.

In reply to IainRUK: The moors. There's only one moors, the rest are meer meddows with the odd clump of heather and a bog conceeling a nicked car.

In reply to Will Hunt:

Thanks for that, made me laugh! I agree, maybe one day Franco will have a life and responsibilities. When I was sixteen I was living in cloud cuckoo land just as much as Franco was.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
your not doing your self any favours today lad, get out and go climbing! im off up moor to bag some solo's minus me mat of course!

In reply to Alex Roddie: like chossy slime filled gullies? All i'll say is if you like choss, there's a fair bit in the moors. (along with alot of quality.) or is it only big choss you like?

In reply to Stash: if you're off to park Nab i'll see you there.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Right, so you have done some big, proper routes then. Your logbook only records two that I can see though, neither of which appear to be very serious.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

I agree Lancashires moors are the finest

In reply to Alex Roddie: i've done a few others. Along with some easy multi pitching. I admit i haven't done owt difficult yet like. Still, I see you've done little more. a 100 metre Ad- that Pinnicle ridge aint it?

In reply to Franco Cookson:
no proper crags none of these esoteric little one! enjoy

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Do you threaten them with pegs or do the pegs do that themselves?

In reply to Stash: there's not much bigger in moors. Unless you count Raven's Scar.

In reply to IainRUK: lol. sorry. If i was more comitted to my school work.....

In reply to Jus:

Amazing but true!

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Like i said enjoy its not a competition,

He bit so quickly there, i love fishing

In reply to Franco Cookson:
i've never experienced anyone SO bloody parochial in my life... Franco, everyone knows you'd crap yourself if you went climbing anywhere other than your god-awful moors. The only person that would miss the moors if they blew up is your mum because you'd spend so much moor (sic) time at home under her feet. If you're dedicated and committed to climbing, buy yourself a motor (or hitch, like i used to), doss at crags all over the UK and get some experience. do let us know how you get on, won't you?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Pinnacle Ridge isn't AD, more like PD-. Skyline contains a pitch of about HS and the rest of it is sustained, hard scrambling (it's also more like 250m). Although I'll agree it isn't particularly big or serious compared to a lot of other AD routes out there, at least it's a proper mountain route.

I haven't done that much in the Alps yet (last year was my first season), but I don't actually record everything in my logbook that I've done, you know!

In reply to Stash: why mock our crags, when you be from here? I bet you're from over west. It's all the same. Ian Jackson's the same, dissing our outcrops.

In reply to Alex Roddie: i don't understand. You use my lack of experience as an argument, but then you have less experience your self??? I don't really care. I haven't really been to the alps yet.

In reply to Dom Whillans: you have a similar logbook to my self, only Sandstone is replaced by grit.

In reply to Franco Cookson: You assume to much, I'm from way over west were the red rose grows!
nothing wrong with your outcrops but thats all they are.............

In reply to Stash: you aint soloing in the moors then. are you?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

I'm not using your lack of experience as an argument, because I know full well I haven't done much in the Alps either! I'm just pointing out that until you've done some proper mountaineering routes, don't diss them.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
What is this obsession with the moors?! You nasty, arrogant child. Just because you have climbed in an area where not that many people go it doesn't make you better in any way. You are not the king of esoterica, that title belongs to Fiend. I dont have a massive go at people just because they have never climbed at Pex or on any Cheshire Sandstone.

In reply to Alex Roddie: ok. I won't. But untill you've done some proper mountaineering routes don't say they're good. We both have no idea!lol.

In reply to Will Hunt: Anyone whos known well enough to attain the tiltle of king of esoterica clearly is doing too much talking/self-publicising and not enought time climbing it.

In reply to Will Hunt: This thread was about the moors though and people use stanage ethics on moors climbing- it's very differant.

In reply to Alex Roddie:

Similarly dont knock small outcrop climbing until youve done more. Everyone likes different things if people on this website could accept that thered be alot less posts.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
stop going on about the moors as if there different from any other crag!
Dont chip or vandalise, remove litter and leave them as you found them! simple.

In reply to Stash: i'm really an obedient quite yoof. I treat the moors well.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Oh yeah, I dont read the Alpine forums but I have a mate who does. We were laughing at your Alpine record the other day. Apparently youve done a coupld of dead easy routes and a couple of walks but still persist in what your going to get done next time you go. Such naiviety.

And another thing, Castle Rock (awesome crag, hope to not meet you there) and Shepherds are not mountain crags. They are very very roadside.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
well its been the best troll in ages! dont get lost on them there moors now!

In reply to Will Hunt: iy, but they're in the lakes. I admit to have done foyk all in the alps. When I went there I was with my dad (who doesn't climb and was leading VS.

In reply to Stash: iy. I won't. going to try and repeat my own route.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
dont get sucked in franco they want an argument!
Just get out climbing!

In reply to Dom Whillans: You do seem to make it your business to get wound up by him. Then give him amble ammunition to further do so through your use of genralised ill-informed arguments. Chill.

To the thread in general. I find all these people banging on about the 'real world' and how they dont have any climbing time very funny. The reason they lack the time is cos they waste their life on her getting involved in silly arguments like this. I know im doing so to but then i dont claim to be in this mythical 'real world' or lack time to climb.
ta
Joe

In reply to Stash: cheers for the advice. I think ill take it and leave. Many thanks all for the most cretinous argument in a long while.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
this time repeat it differently so you can call it another first ascent! then again and again again.
good work anyway putting up new routes, just keep doing it and dont worry about moving boulders!

In reply to JoeL 90: Agreed, intirely. again a 77 year old.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

quite apart from that being bullshit, is the fact that ALL your climbs are on your logbook, whereas i've only stuck a few in.... I'm not into the whole willy-waving thing, so don't even start.

In reply to Will Hunt:

Except me. And I can take it :P

In reply to Will Hunt:

have you done anything big in the alps or elsewhere? Have you done the routes he wants to do? Theres many examples of talented climbers going to the alps first time and doing big things.
Stop with the embarassingly crude personal attacks. You may justly wish to insult him but could you make it more witty so it makes more entertaining reading for the rest of us.
Ta
Joe

In reply to Will Hunt:

Christ, don't encourage him to go to one of our favourite crags!

In reply to Dom Whillans: not all my climbs are on my logbook. THat's my last comment on here.

In reply to Dom Whillans: Youve had a good willy waving contest with him before. The only reason you dont wanna bring it up agains cos you lost.

In reply to JoeL 90: chill? wtf? are we still in 1999? do you see yourself as some um pire type character? do you have anything useful to add? didn't think so...

In reply to JoeL 90:

mate, when you've got some hairs on it, you can join in...

In reply to Dom Whillans: Well as a 77 yr old im not up to date with all the new lingo dude

Ive added my opinions to the thread earlier. You added an ill thought-out blanket statement then continued to get all serious in whats a funny light-hearted conversation. Also i really dislke your crude insults, ffs if you want to insult him or me or anyone else do it in a funny way rather than silly penis related insults you immature tw@t

In reply to Dom Whillans: I realise i said i wouldn't post again but,
your immaturity and lack of thinking even suppasses my self.

Fran you clown, "dont know you!"


95% of your climbing else where in the worlds classed as highball bouldering anyway

In reply to IanJackson: ps not going to Kildale now, busy with shit, and iam knackered.

In reply to IanJackson: ahh well, dooge is moving a hay bail so we have to wait for that to finish and then were off to pab as ingleby's a waste of time.-if you fancy a sprint?

In reply to IanJackson:


iy, like west sphinx.

In reply to Franco Cookson: indeed, and thats not gay is it?

In reply to Alex Roddie:
I'm with norrie - vegged chossy death traps are shit whether they're at small crags or on big mountains. But then that's just my opinion.

RE: commitment.. even when i was at oxford last year i still got out 4-6 days a month and trained a lot. 1 day a month isn't committed to climbing, no matter what you might like to think. (yes, clearly there are 'levels' of committment, but one day on month really is nothing)
Franco, your defention is bull what with ruling out the like of Pearson and Macleod.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

for a 16 year old you're a pretty good wind-up merchant!

In reply to abarro81:

Fair enough, I enjoy them, other people might not.


I don't climb one day a month ... I said an average of one TRIP a month! My trips last several days, and every so often I might be able to get out more than once a month. On average, I'd say I probably climb about four or five days a month outside. And I make sacrifices to get on trips.

Every so often I'll go on a longer trip lasting two or more weeks. They tend to be over the summer, but I put everything else aside for them.

I also climb at the local wall for at least five hours a week, and run every other day to improve my fitness. I think that living in Norwich with the other responsibilities I have, I'm fairly committed to my climbing.

I have never done an alpine route and cant see myself climbing alpine style in the near future. Fortunately I dont bullshit about all the big ascents Ive got lined up in Cham. I tend to go for accuracy over wit. I think I have achieved that so far.



In reply to JoeL 90:


Sorry to break the news but, going by his logbook, Franco is not a talented climber. Kids such as the Healey brothers were.

In reply to JoeL 90:

ah well, not only do you not understand trad ethics, you also don't understand that a huge amount of humour comes from knob-gags... it's not my fault if your penis is silly.

btw, how you doing will? ready to show me the delights of yorkshire grit when the nights draw out a bit after easter?

In reply to Alex Roddie & Franco Cookson:

Fantastic - two people with chuff-all experience arguing about the pros and cons of a crag neither of them have been to.

Classic UKC, well done to the two of you.

In reply to Andy Hobson: indeed. You are right ofcoarse, still i think for once my argument was the strongest.

In reply to Franco Cookson: So did you go out climbing in the end?

In reply to mike kann: Iy, went to park Nab. Repeated my own route and then went down to NOS boulder for an arse about. Was a nice outing.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Unfortunately I've been at home working to earn the money to go climbing. You lucky bugger.

In reply to mike kann: iy, i am. My fingers are nackered. I've got well strong this week though- came back today and cruised a route i've been trying on my wall.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Just out of interest what the hell does iy mean? It bugs the hell out of me.

In reply to mike kann: jesus. if i had a tupance for every time that frage were arkst.


Iy- yes- e.g:
that tractor's big init?
Iy, tis.

aye- question e.g.
that tractor's big aint it?
aye? its tiny.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Franco, on this point, if on no other, you are a halfwit. Trust me on this.

and why is it that I still haven't seen any 'my dad's bigger than your dad' retorts on this thread? I've been waiting all afternoon for them and I'm *most* disappointed.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Why use it if nobody knows what the hell you're on about? Then you wouldn't get people irritating you by asking... or you could just write it what its spelt like

In reply to CJD:

I don't believe you're bullying the boy. Halfwit - thats a little harsh isn't it? All he wants to is dig up the moors, and live from dustbins for the rest of his life. There's nowt wrong with that...

In reply to mike kann:

I'm only calling him a halfwit for his use of the nonsensical term 'iy' rather than the more usually accepted 'aye'.

other than that, he can do as he likes, as long as he doesn't damage anything and he remembers to wash his hands before handling food.

In reply to CJD: Surely thats pointless if he's living out of a dustbin though? His food'll be covered in Germs. Did you know that germs come from Germany?

In reply to mike kann:

guffaw!

In reply to Dom Whillans: You were complaining about bigotary earlier but ive just read your profile and you seem to have an irractional dislike of boulderers. Be more consitent.

It was a crap, tired and over used joke though. there are many wittier retorts than the usual 'haha your young so you haven't gone through puberty joke'. Grow up, man and at least think of something funny to say your 28 ffs what drives you to get involved in silly arguments with seventeen yr olds?

In reply to JoeL 90: Where did i grt 28 from did this use to be on tour profile?

In reply to JoeL 90: you're 77. you're too old aswell.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Aye, true. but at least ive got senility as an excuse.

In reply to JoeL 90: iy, indeed. You don't fancy a little trip up cleveland tomorrow do you? I need a belayer.

In reply to Franco Cookson: My Physics teacher isn't quite as keen on the idea as i am. I wouldn't mind a trip up some time i like climbing in new places but im not hitching/paying public transport to belay you up some esoteric new route, and scout crag icefall is close to touch down so i may have to get up early and av a look see if the left-hand version is in. Im not helping you lever out a boulder though

In reply to Franco Cookson: isn't it going to rain tommorow anyway? You should get yourself over to malham. Or is bolt clipping against your ethics

In reply to JoeL 90: LOl.This isn't esoteric. Have you ever heard of magic in the Air? You should have. I think it's in classic rock or something. It was in all the news when it was first climbed. ITs an E6 6c I think, that climbs a 20 metre soaring Arete. I want to try a route to the right of that called moonflower. It's an amazing unprotected thin slab. 6b. Awesome. The skiving, hitching and exploring would be worth it. (Highcliffe Nab)

In reply to JoeL 90: it is. Why does the weather matter?

In reply to Franco Cookson: Ive heard of moonflower and highcliffe nab but ive not got presumerably hard rock or whatever one of those things its in and dont have alot of intrest in e6 6cs at the moment.

The weather doesn't really matter but i genrally find things harder in the rain. And if its really rainy, like the novelty of crags which stay dry in it.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

A complete aside, I was just looking at your - Blog, I'll give you three guesses why you found Keep Pedaling low in the grade!


Chris

In reply to Franco Cookson: lol you nut, Magic in the Air is not in "classic rock" I assure you. However iam free till 4pm tomorrow so can climb somewhere. Recon its gonna rain anyway.

In reply to IanJackson: wooooooooooo. I called you, but there was no ian?? It was in summat. Anywho, iy. I wanna have a go at moonflower. Fancy an attempt? or is it impossible?

In reply to Chris Craggs: the picture isnt keep peddling. It's the E1 to the left.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Yeah, I know.

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs: so why did i think it was a soft touch?

In reply to Chris Craggs: you don't fancy a trip to Highcliffe tomorrow do you? Seen as it's your area and all.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Well your Blog says you did Keep Pedaling (E2 5c) which you said was a soft tough, and the shot next to it in the same Blog is you on Pedlar's Rib (E1 5c) - so what's a man to think?


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs: I don't see ehere I said it was a soft touch. And it's touch not tough (to be peddantic at a CC level). ANd it also says various more E1s after. For the recoard I thought Keep Peddling was a nice route, slighty easy, but good. There are far worse graded things at stanage. I aint just out to attack your fine efforts though.

In reply to Chris Craggs: What about Highcliffe?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Highcliff?


Chris

;-p

In reply to Chris Craggs: it's the one near guisborough? You might have been there? It's E5 6b..............I think thats E7 6c rockfax? lol only joking.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

This one?

http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_crag.html?id=418







Never heard of it!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs: you fancy giving it a go? It's a bit esoteric maybe and has a big walk in- 5 minutes. YOu dont have to cue for routes either, so might not be too good.

In reply to Chris Craggs: Highcliffe... same as it says

In reply to Chris Craggs: ill see you there then? 10?

In reply to JoeL 90:

i'll tell you what, you snivelling little shyster... what i really hate are people too lazy to write coherently in their own language. i might suggest that you add spelling lessons to your hitlist? try particularly to learn the words "bigotry, irrational, consistent, you're and i've".
Nowhere on my profile does it express an irrational dislike of boulderers. you're very much clutching at straws if you're trying to have a pop at me... keep trying though, i'm finding you very amusing.

In reply to Dom Whillans: is missing capitals annoying aswell? From your porfile- Fav discussion topic: "Why bouldering isn't climbing".

In reply to Franco Cookson:

porfile?

In reply to Dom Whillans: i don't diss people for their spelling. Don't avoid the point, you are a hypocrit.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

that's because you're crap at it. explain how i'm a hypocrite please?

In reply to Dom Whillans:

"what i really hate are people too lazy to write coherently in their own language. i might suggest "

this sentance is undermined by it's own construction. (no capital after the Full Stop. I think I learnt that in year 1?

In reply to Franco Cookson: )* (forgot)

In reply to Dom Whillans: You are a hypocrite as you express a dislike for predjudice on this forum, yet on you profile you have a predjudiced comment. hence, you are a hypocrite. simple really maybe you should learn the maening of words rather than how to spell them

In reply to JoeL 90: lol. twic the hypocrate.

In reply to Dom Whillans: I think your attempt to bully minnors back-fired.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
It's amazing Franco, but I find myself agreeing with you on this matter! =)

In reply to Alex Roddie:I know we disagreed on here, but you seem oright on tother threads. I'm just a cretin with ridiculous opinions, don't listen to em.

In reply to JoeL 90:

if you could explain how discussing the fact that bouldering isn't climbing is in any way prejudiced i'd thank you kindly. bouldering is bouldering, climbing is climbing. they are different. acknowledging that there is a difference is not prejudicial - vive la difference! hope this helps?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

at least you spelled 'the' correctly. 1 out of 3 isn't THAT bad, is it?

In reply to Dom Whillans: i'm sure that is what you meant.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
i'm so glad you're here to tell me what i mean.

In reply to Dom Whillans: your arguments dont even make sense. Its just back-trakking crap.

In reply to Franco Cookson: i think you're lost in a muddle of your own making. on what am i back tracking? (note spelling)

In reply to Dom Whillans: Bouldering is climbing though, as climbing simply means to ascend something. so there for bouldering is a type of climbing like alpinism, hill walking, scrambling and anything else for that matter which involves ascent. the statement therefore suggests bouldering is inferior in some way. This isn't any big deal its just you get very worked up and label things that aren't racism, racism. Like on another thread when you mistook a harmless nationalistic jibe for racism.

In fact there lies your problem in genral on this forum. You take things too seriously and resort to abuse as you are un able to engage in rational debate. Your spelling might be great and im sure youd get yourself great marks in primary school spelling tests but you fail to grasp the complexities of arguments and simply barge in with silly ideas due to you rather worrying dislike of certain individuals for no aparent reason.

In reply to JoeL 90: thats hilarious. I laughed so much when I read that.

In reply to Dom Whillans:
"Why boulderering isn't climbing"
"i wasn't insulting boulderers"

In reply to Franco Cookson: ta, i aim to please.

Anyone else reading this that patronising and arrogant (?) post wasn't exactly serious but then Mr Whillans is a very entertaining poster albeit unintentionally and his replies are a fine source of amusement while i do my coursework.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Thank you, to be fair I admire your enthusiasm and find many of your posts entertaining ... the only thing I can't stand is some of your opinions!! =)

In reply to JoeL 90:
so my old mum back home in wales climbing the stairs is a climber? she'll be made up!

yeah, i've resorted to mild abuse of you and mr cookson, mainly because you're a pair of spanners. there has been no complexity in this thread, which actually finished what seems like days ago. i'm simply here for the fun of winding you two pillocks up. it's a hobby and it keeps me off the streets.

on a side note, there is no such thing as a "harmless nationalistic jibe"... and I am being absolutely serious about that.

In reply to Alex Roddie: no worries. If in doubt, ignore em. i'm off to bed anywho.

In reply to Dom Whillans: you're starting to sound like a frog to me.

In reply to Dom Whillans:
and I am being absolutely serious about that.

Yeah i know thats your problem

G'night all. very entertaining once again. Doing coursework shouldn't be this amsusing - though im sure it may be more productive without posting on here...

In reply to Franco Cookson:
fuggin' lightweights.

In reply to Dom Whillans: what the frogs? I agree.

In reply to Franco Cookson: digging up the ground! are you mad?
since when has it been ok to do this in the mountains?
why don't you take up motorcross or something like that?