UKC

Tom Ballard is hoping to follow in his Mum's footsteps.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2291746.html

Again this is controversial, but is it irresponsible?
As climbers should we not admire and understand his will and drive to take on a big serious route? His early days with Mum in the mountains must surely have been formative. But solo at 17? Are we right to judge ? I have mixed feelings

In reply to shunty:
I wish him luck, but wont be surprised to see some unfortunate haedlines. That wall has killed some amazing mountaineers let alone a novice.
But again good luck to him and i hope he comes out of it alive

In reply to shunty: If he feels he is confident enough he should go for it , afterall , its wrong to say its ok to solo a route at 30 but not at 17. Good luck to him and hope he survives it

In reply to happy_c: Already being discussed here...

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=194175

In reply to happy_c: I met Tom when he was very young, an excllent child, and I knew his mom and dad well, please be to god he will be ok. Who is he doing it with?

In reply to Al Evans:

>"Who is he doing it with?"

The BBC apparently!

Good luck to him, I hear here's a very good climber.

In reply to Al Evans: Just read he's solo, Just Hope,

In reply to shunty:

Yes I read about this in the papers yesterday. Seems slightly crazy to me. Is he exeperienced enough to understand the risks in the context of his life to come? It smacks of his father encouraging (if not exactly pushing) him in a similar way to Alison where, to my mind, he should be trying to talk him out of it until he is really ready to know whether it's something he should try.

His father also said something about not wanting to put pressure on him etc. Well, if so, why publicise it and not simply turn up when conditions are right and climb it?

In reply to Al Evans:
I knew Alison too and admired her drive that came from within.
This may be in Tom too, but I just cannot help feeling that part of this is about his ghosts, big route, solo and press and film etc..

In reply to Al Evans: Not sure , i think his 15 yr old sister :S

In reply to shunty:
To do the NF at 17 is quite an undertaking. Mountain experience and savvy are hard fought skills that only come with hours logged.

This is assuming theres anything left of the Eiger by 2007. The alps seem to be having another bad year in the heat!

In reply to jazzyjackson:

Which is presumably why he is planning to do it in the winter. Let's just hope he has very stable weather.

In reply to shunty:

From the times

"The BBC hopes to film Tom’s attempt for a documentary. The corporation has already filmed Tom climbing in the Highlands and has earmarked £100,000 for the project. His father believes another £20,000 is needed from sponsors to ensure the mission can go ahead."

Anybody else feel more than a little queasy about this ? It strikes me that having a media circus in tow will put even more pressure on some inexperienced shoulders.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

At least his dad is familiar with how to work with the media....

;-(

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Yes, hence my comment about if his Dad was serious about not wanting to put pressure on him he should just turn up and climb it. Like anyone else.

Very queasy indeed. And the odds must be quite bad actually.

In reply to shunty: before we judge how mad his plan is - does anyone know what big routes he's done in the past?

In reply to abarro81:
exactly. Has he done any soloing in the Northern Corries for example?

In reply to shunty:

Good luck to him - i dont believe its irresponsible - his choice, he'll be lucky to make it though.

In reply to The Great Pretender:


You need at least that for the celebratory booze in Grindelwald afterwards.

All I can say is that I wish I was 17 again and had the balls to seriously contemplate doing this. Hats off to the lad.

In reply to Chris the Tall: £120,000 to make a climbing film!

In reply to John_Warner:

He should impregnate some lucky lady before he leaves for his trip, in case he follows in his mother's footsteps a little too closely.

In reply to S Pleasington:

I'm guessing that the plan is to spend the winter in the alps training and waiting for the weather window. Sounds all a bit like the Jack Osbourne makeover, or some program last year where they tied to get a man who'd never climbed up Everest after just 2 months of training (they failed - he had the fitness, but insuffient hunger to overcome the suffering).

When I was 17 I also wanted to climb the north face, but as I got into climbing I realised there was far more to the sport than going after just one big tick. This seems to be the problem with Everest/7 summit baggers - they are too focused on the summit and lose sight of the process of getting there. I think it's great that this lad wants to emulate his mother acheivements, but he should also follow her steps in serving an apprenticeship first

In reply to Chris the Tall:


Cheap shot.


You imply that he hasn't served an apprenticeship. Do you know that, or are you just guessing?

In reply to shunty:

17 is very young to undertake something like this. I wish him well.

In reply to Anonymous:
I'm only going on what is in the time article, and explaining why it all makes me feel queasy. The portrayal of mountaineering/climbing/extreme sports on TV is all about the big headline, the death defying aspects etc.

I'm sure given he's fathers experience he will have already done a great deal of climbing, but it seems someone is waving a lot of money in his vicinity and it would take a very level headed 17 year-old not to have his judgement influenced by it.

If you know more then please tell, but drop the mask of anonymity...

In reply to Chris the Tall:


I know as much or as little as you. My assumption is that he's experienced enough to make a judgement call on his likelihood of getting the route done - just like any other alpinist.

In reply to Anonymous:

Dear Anonymous

Not every Alpinist has a camera crew filming him/her most of the time. Has he the experience/judgement to say stuff this, I'm off?

Norrie

In reply to Chris the Tall: Shhhhh.... It might be Jack Osbourne!

In reply to Norrie Muir:


I don't know.

In reply to Anonymous:

Dear Anonymous

You make the assumption he can make the judgement call to get up it, but don’t know he can make the call to back off. Well I hope he knows more than you do. Having the bottle to turn back, is maybe harder with a film crew watching, than going up.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:


Well, obviously - it'll be him trying the route, not me.


Undeniably true.

In reply to shunty:

It was quite telling in the Sunday Times article I saw that Ballard Senior referred to "we" when talking about Tom climbing the Eiger. Somehow I don't think Tom is doing this on his own whether he likes it or not.

In reply to Smitz:


This is in VERY poor taste!

In reply to shunty:
kinda funny though

In reply to Smitz:

strange comment.

In reply to John_Warner:

What is?

In reply to shunty:

Can only hope he makes it one way or another. I hope when he does it if things start to look bad, he has the guts to turn back. It takes a bigger person to admit defeat than to carry on regardless.

As for the filming, if it all went horribly wrong on the day, we can all imagine the fallout for climbing/mountaineering in this country.

In reply to Sarah Crowe:

Can we? I don't see it would be bad for climbing as a whole in the UK, just bloody tragic generally.

In reply to Sarah Crowe:
That was my other concern about this. he is young and driven to be professional climber. With the media and sponsorship will he be able to make sensible judgements on a big route with objective dangers. It seems such a make/break arrangement. I agree with many others, who suggest that an apprentiship provides a good framework for a serious route like this where the dangers are not in the climbing itself.

I once asked Rheinold Messner why he thought he had survived when so many had not, and he said he had acquired an acute sense of instinct in dangers situations that had been gained from incremental exposure to danger.

Good luck Tom.

In reply to abarro81:

Apart from the Eiger Nordwand in utero, you mean!

In reply to Dave Garnett: I hope, desperately I hope, that the people who have vision here are Chris TT and Norrie.

In reply to shunty:

Tom Ballard is getting quite a lot of attention up here for hard repeats etc.
At 16 he could legally father a child so what right do we have to judge him? We're climbers too!!!
He's not 12 ffs. Making speculations about his father being some kind of Machiavellian figure is pretty irrelevant at age 17.
I agree having the distraction of a film crew isn't maybe the best way to approach as serious a solo as this though.

Davie

In reply:

Seeing as he's sport climbing in the mid-8s, and probably as good on trad and mountaineer-y routes too, he's in a far better position to judge his chances than all the self righteous tw*ts on this thread saying,
"naw, the boys way too young, he needs experience, etc" Well he's probably got more of that than most of the folk on this site, so how about cutting out the jealousy and envy of his ability, and encouraging him??!!

In reply to Malcolm:

Dear Malcolm

You maybe right in your post, however, I think you don't understand my concern. Professional climbers are under a great deal of pressure to complete a route. Tom will have the technical ability to do this route, that is not my concern as the route is not that difficult.

The objective dangers in doing a Sport Climb in the mid 8's is a bit different to a few ton of snow is falling down on him when on that route with no rope.

I don't know the experience of most of the other posters on this thread, but I've had experience of soloing on the 1938 Route. Because I thought "stuff this, I'm off" at the Death Bivouac, I'm still alive 35 years later and I've never been jealous or envious of Eric Jones who later did the first British solo ascent.

As for my encouragement, it won't make one blind bit of difference, for Tom to succeed on the route or otherwise.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Norrie, for once in your life why not encourage somebody rather than talking about yourself the whole time.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Dear Boulderer

I see that is different from the post you deleted.

Why don't you post about the thread's topic, rather than make comments about me?

Norrie

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
Why did you find that post offensive?
I thought that was probably the most appropriate post on this entire thread.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Dear boulderer

Are you going to make a pathetic personal attack+ on Al Evans for posting "I hope, desperately I hope, that the people who have vision here are Chris TT and Norrie"?

Norrie

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer: An interesting topic and someone always has to get personal.

If he is climbing it for himself then I wish him all the best. If he's under pressure then hope he can back out when it matters.

Out of interest I saw a poster saying how hard he has climbed. Anyone got details, just would like a bit more information on the guy before I judge whether he is mad to give ago or based his decision on some experience.

In reply to Norrie Muir: Hey guys, I knew this guy as a bairn, and his mom and told her I had bad feelings about her K2 trip, Please dont attatch anything more to it, Its a painful one this, Norrie is right.

In reply to Norrie Muir:
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the report I read said that Tom was intending to do the same line that Alison climbed, not the 1938 route. I would think that was not unrealistic if he is as talented and experienced as we are led to believe.

In reply to Al Evans:
Al
I am sorry you find this distressing given your associations.
However, I fealth this topic was an emotive one and worthy of a dialogue amongst climbers who some may be parents.
It is indeed a pity that some take the opportunity to make it personal or flex their climbing prowess.
In the end it is only discussion. Tom is the one making the decision and facing the elements, supported by his Father and perhaps inspired by his Mum--a true climbing spirit of which there are few.
There is no right and wrong answer here. It is how each of us feels about the values of what he will try to do and what that means to us. So expect a difference of opinion and a heated exchange, but if you dont like the heat stay out of the kitchen and let people express what they feel

In reply to shunty:
maybe he wants to exercise his demons as early in his climbing career as he can.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

Dear Alison

You are very good at picking up on things up. Did I say it was the same route, did I at least get the right hill?

Was it the same article in yesterday's Sunday Times where Stephen Venables warned that it could end in disaster and is quoted as saying "He could die. Lots of people have died on the Eiger.". You may know better otherwise.

Norrie

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

As the only other poster on this thread (as far as I know) who has experience of what it's like trying to solo a route on the North Wall of the Eiger, I'd say he had every right to mention it. Norrie's climbing credentials are pretty enviable, and his concerns about backing off seem pretty legitimate to me.

In reply to Norrie Muir:
The article said: "He will take the classic route up the Eiger that back in the 1930s people thought would be impossible.".

In reply:

Norrie, how did Venables' quotes get used in this article? (I don't read the Times).
Was it a considered article or was he used as a rent- a- gub in a tabloid style shock horror expose?

Davie

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:


Dear God

Ask Alison Stockwell, she knows all the answers.

Norrie

In reply to Steve Parker:

This isn't a matter for taking the piss or petty personal digs, and I would agree with that sentiment.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

The report I read said that he'd be trying the 1938 route.

In reply to Norrie Muir:
Eeeeurkk!!! Is that a compliment? Oh well :-P

In the end it's just my opinion, same as anyone else and it's worth no more or less.

It's clear that there are conflicting reports in different newspapers. In the London Metro it said the lad was doing the same route as his mother, but if the boss (Stephen) says the planned line is a more dangerous one then he may know more than I do.

I am torn between concern that someone of seventeen is too young to take full responsibility for the seriousness of a life-risking endeavour, and the wish to encourage young ambition. Ultimately I hold the view that if it is intended to be be televised it is likely to be very controlled so the risks will be lower than if it was a private endeavour.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:
>>

I never climbed at this level, nor am I likely to, though I am curious how a televised climb can reduce the risk of rockfall or avalanche

In reply to shunty:

good lad, living life to the full. wish him luck and he's not out of his league. and he's old enough to know what he's doing.

centurion05

In reply to Bogsy:


Well, that's why I'd expect a careful selection of route and an assortment of guides providing advice and selecting the best weather window. Maybe the Osbourne precedent is clouding my expectations......

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

Dear Alison

So you think it is just a publicity stunt, shame on you.

Norrie

Anyway, much luck to him - Leo Houlding was doing pretty amazing stuff at a similar age (Lord of the Flies with a headtorch; John Allen freeing Great Wall on Cloggy). Don't know anything about him, and have no idea how mature he is, but I can think of a lot of damn fine young climbers from the past. Much respect!

In reply to Norrie Muir:
I have no shame and I don't think any of us know enough about it to make any judgement. It's easy to be dismissive of things; but that does not mean they are not worthwhile.

What do we know? The route is disputed; the support facilities are unknown; the exact nature of the ascent is unclear. Does Tom warrant a lower standard of care than Jack? I hope not and one would hope that the objective is to inspire, not to shock.

There will be lots if time in the future for Tom to excel as an indepemdent mountaineer. If he wants to.

In reply to shunty: Have none of you read "Regions of the Heart" by David Rose & Ed Douglas, the biography of Alison Hargreaves. Sadly Jim Ballard comes across as manipulative, bullying and abusive, a view which having met him I find persuavive. He has never as far as I am aware, sued the authors for libel. Let us hope that his son is able to make up his own mind about the Eiger and all other aspects of his life without external influence.

In reply to shunty:

Didn't Stevie Haston solo some big routes in Chamonix when he was 17 (NF of the Droites I think)?

If you're good enough, you're old enough as the football cliche has it.

In reply to shunty:

I don't think its irresponsible of him to take his chances on the route. He is 17 and is making his own decision. I am sure nobody would contemplate tackling the route if they did not feel 100% confident about being safe on it.

In Febuary this year I too was on teh Eiger N.Face by the 1938 route (although nt solo). I simply did not contemplate failure, and I was confident that we would know when to turn back and how to keep ourselves safe. Personally I was only just turned 22 at the time, which is still pretty young. However I had gained a fair few eyars of climbing experience, was doing 7a+ sports routes, E5 trad and VI winter. This was plenty sufficient to deal witht he technicalities of the climbing I felt. Now it appears Tom is climbing much harder than I was. BUT this route is not about technical difficulties per say, it's just serious, with crappy loose rock and when I was on that route deep drifts of powder that slowed our progress considerably on the lower part of the face. I had excellent weather with high pressure and wall to wall sunshine everyday. In these conditions and if he keeps his head then he should be OK. However I wouldn't want to be on the face when the weather turns bad, things could turn very serious very quickly.

I wish him all the luck in the world, its a fantastic route, full of history, and tragedy. I just hope he is clibming it for the right reasons, because he wants to, and not to be part of a media circus.

In reply to nicholas Barrowclough: good post and good to hear your doing good stuff. Lets not forget hell be doing it in winter, this factor will either work in his favour or against him.

Best of luck to Tom

In reply to shunty: still nobody's actually said what he has done in the past - trad/sport/alps/greater ranges... particularly would be interested if anyone does know his experience on big bad alpine routes.

good luck to him, although as norrie says - encouragement wont get him up (or down off) the mountain safely; actually more encouragement probably just adds more pressure!

In reply to Erik B:

Well mine was a winter ascent as well, it was 1st Feb and was pretty damn wintery to me! I wouldnt go near the face in summer. Despite it being winter there was still a fair bit of stonefall coming down. Only small stuff but ti would certainly have ruined my modelling career had I coped one in the face!

In reply to shunty:

By the tone of this thread a fair number of UK climbers would be happy to see ID getting checked at the base of big hills like the Eiger. How long before no one under 21 is allowed onto the Ben in winter? Listen to yourselves!!!

Davie

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre: At last some sense, I thought the beauty & freedom of climbing and mountaineering is that you make your own rules!

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:
It's not really his age that is the concern, it's the apparent media circus. Read the times article and tell me it doesn't worry you.

I hoping that this lad has been quietly working his way through the grades, getting experience in the scotland and the alps, and that the misgivings myself and others have voiced are completely groundless. I'm sure he has talent and experience well beyond his years. He wants to be a proffessional mountaineer - no problem. But launching yourself onto the world stage with a huge media event and a bit spectactular climb - it's all a bit too MTV xTreme for my liking

In reply to Chris the Tall: stop worrying and give him more support!!!! 1-0 to the young people woohoo!!!

In reply to Chris the Tall:

The tone of the article seems to suggest a formidable media engine, e.g.: "There is a golden opportunity to deliver an incredibly poignant story of adventure" ...

I hope he does what he really wants to and achieves it, whether or not it is in the interests of the media.

yeah i hope the eiger NF doesn't trun into another everest

In reply to shunty:
i don't wish to look like a complete punter but, is the eiger in the lakes or n.wales?

In reply to Edward Sloperhands66792164382214 and others:

I suspect that some of the concern expressed on this thread is precisely because people *have* read, heard or know something about the family history but are carefully trying not to say too much which could be construed as grounds for legal action! In fact, a couple of early posts along those lines were deleted my the mods.

Basically, let's just hope Tom is indeed doing this for his own reasons and also that he is doing it in the manner that he personally desires. One can only wish him all the best regardless.

Hope this is read in the spirit it is intended and not as being an attempt at sounding self important.

In reply to Bret (rock god): it's in the peak, just behind stanage. the north face is the one with loads of easy bolted stuff on it that beginners groups often use for top roping

In reply to shunty:

I never knew Alison or any of her family, but superficially, this strikes me as a very unhealthy, tasteless and inappropriate thing to do. I do recall seeing her husband interviewed after she died, and, given how weird and creepy he came across about people dying in the mountains, this news does not really come as a surprise. He had something of the fundamentalist zealot about him. My apologies to him and his friends if he's not like that; I'm only going on how the interview made him seem.

But you have to wonder, when will it be enough? If Tom also dies, will the daughter be next? How about throwing the family dog at it? How many does it take to get the message? Sure, it's better to live one day as a tiger than a lifetime as a sheep, but that doesn't mean we have to immitate lemmings, either.

In reply to shunty:

I won't get involved in the rights and wrongs of media-backed climbing, but the number of posts suggesting that this is a suicidal venture seem in poor taste. And innacurate.

In reply to Jamie B.:

I think they originate from concern for Tom. A 17 year old soloing a face like this does seem a little overly bold, especially given the circ's.

In reply to Dom Orsler:

To suggest to any climber before they set off on something that they might get killed is definately in poor taste, whatever spin you put on it.

In reply to Jamie B.:

Dear jamie

What a bold statement.

I expect you to have no conserns with safety when you post in the Winter Climbing Forum.

Norrie

In reply to Jamie B.:

'I think they originate from concern for Tom.' D.O.

I think that's the root of many of these posts, Jamie, not slagging the lad off or doubting his ability. The cemetaries are full of my mates; well they were good climbers too. And they hadn't got the media to contend with.

Just hope he's OK. But, if you climb for any reason but John Redhead's 'authentic desire', you're loading bullets in the chamber.

Just hope he's OK.

Mick

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:


That's good to hear. The Times article calls him "a teenage novice" which is perhaps where some of the Oh-my-god! kind of response are coming from.

I have to agree with Dom - Jim Ballard has consistently come over in the media as an oddball at best - and having read Hargreave's biography it really doesn't make him out to be a nice man. He might be lovely if you know him personally, but that's not the impression you get and these comments in the Times don't help either.

Good luck to Tom though. Fingers crossed for blue skies and lots of solid neve.

In reply to TobyA: I do know Jim personally, have done for many years (over 30), he is a pragmatist, not easy but a good man, Alison knew ths too. Kids were good well rounded kids though I havent seen Tom since Ali did her solo of the Bregalia I did however see Alison since then, and tried to persuade her not to do K2 .
Stop knocking what you dont understand. I'm not criticising, I'm just asking you not to pre-judge. Its a strange family that perhaps does'nt fit into most peoples normal conceptions, but it worked for them. Ali was wonderful, I cried for weeks when she died, sorry I cant go on.

In reply to TobyA:


If you will go around believing the media you will wind up forming some strange and erroneous opinions

More seriously for a man to take the role he did to Alison and her drive to climb he would have to have an attitude to life that differed from the more common driven male perspective. I doubt that you would fiund many men who would be capable of or wiolling to do this. He is certainly different, thank goodness we aren't all the same, maybe we should learn to tolerate and maybe even be thankful for those who don't strive to live to modern day stereotypical standards? To call him an oddball for merely being a little different or unique in his character is both unjust and unkind IMHO.

Regards

Tim Jones

In reply to TobyA: Oh, i'm glad it is not just me who thought this too. isn't he supsoed to have been domestically abusive towards alsion? which is apsolutley appaulling.

In reply to Dom Orsler:

that's the crux of the worry for me although my consolation is that it's equally (more?) likely that the lad just wants to climb it - the human interest is just the spin the press wants to put on it - and the press involvement purely engineered for funding and sponsorship - hopefully

In reply to timjones: How often do you believe the media implicitly, not often I hope. Pleeeeeze, dont judge Jim on crap reports, what ever the tensions might have been between them Jim and Ali and the Kids stuck together, and loved each other better than a lot of the rest of us did. Jim completely subjugated his stuff (sic) for Ali and her aims, his motives are not for you to judge.
Al

In reply to The Great Pretender:

so you couldn't resist posting that again. what has that got to do with Tom's possible attempt on the Eiger?

why is it not enough to acknowledge that people doubt Jim's motives (given past history and the press comments) without actually becoming overly personal about this?

In reply to The Great Pretender:

Dear Pretender

You are a right dickhead for posting that.

Norrie

In reply to JonC: it concerns me as too whether he is climbing the route for the right reasons? is he being presurised into it? anyway, how come we have never herd of this kid if he can sport climb into the mid 8s? I think that attempting this route at this stage in his climbing career could be very quick way to end it. with possibley a very macarbre TV show too.

In reply to Norrie Muir: well better than being just a right dickhead.

In reply to The Great Pretender:

you are a prat. read my post, wtf would that have to do with his relationship with Tom?

and your original post asking the same question was, as you know, deleted by the mods for good reason.

grow up.

In reply to The Great Pretender:

Can I butt in a second here while you are getting a powering. Can you email me your address so I can post those Boreals to you. I've tried but heard nothing back.

Davie

In reply to JonC: Tom is obviously not doing the north wall of the eiger for himself. otherwise he wouldn't be getting the BBC and good know who else to film him doing it. he owuld have just trained and climbed until he felt confident and then climbed it. he shouldn't soloing a route like that just to be the 'first' he should bed oing it because he wants to. you should only solo for yourself. not to impress others.

In reply to The Great Pretender:

Isn't that more a statement of your own ignorance than his ability? I don't know him, but as Davie said earlier, TB's been getting a good reputation north of the border for his climbs. The idea that he's some mug punter being pushed into it without understanding what it involves is ill-informed speculation. Having lived and breathed mountains for all his life, I reckon he's got a fair idea of what going on (but I fully accept Norrie's points about backing off in the full glare of a camera crew).

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre: you got mail

In reply to tony: ponit taken. why does he need to do it for the camera's though.

In reply to The Great Pretender:

Dear Pretender

It is quite simple, there are not many professional climbers who can make a living with failured routes, so Tom has added pressure of pushing it.

Norrie

In reply to The Great Pretender:

Quite valid points and you may or may not be right.

Now, I ask again, what has your specific post about Jim got to do with that? Basically, it hasn't so why not think before you post.

In reply to JonC: ermmmm... not much really.

In reply to The Great Pretender:
he shouldn't soloing a route like that just to be the 'first' he should bed oing it because he wants to. you should only solo for yourself. not to impress others.

Dear Pretender

You sound if you know a lot about soloing. Have you the experience or knowledge to back up what you post?

Norrie

In reply to shunty: Good luck to him, I wish I had his cojones & half his ability!

In reply to tony:


and yet still no-one actually seems to have a clue what routes he *has* done... how experienced he is and how good he is

(or cant be bothered to say if they do)

In reply to Norrie Muir:


The Great pretender knows everything.

I have heard JB mention a few times that he is to publish Alisons diarys??

can anyone who knows him confirm this??

Ta

In reply to Norrie Muir:


I THINK the scenarios are somewhat diferent. I will always be concerned with safety.