UKC

further to the recent thread on E grades http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=314385
im interested in hearing what people think the sport grade should be for a few E5s and 6s.

id also like views on gear using a grade system similar to that mentioned in the thread. without having given it extensive thought i reckon 4 gear gradings would cover most / all routes:

P1 very well-protected, almost gear on demand (eg Foil and Cemetary Gates) or good, regular gear available (eg Erb and SS Special)
P2 generally well-protected but with run-out, although still safe, sections (eg Resurrection and Time for Tea)
P3 as P2 but with potentially serious fall consequences on run-out sections (eg Gnat Attack and Capital Punishment)
P4 generally run-out and / or serious climbing with limited good gear (eg The Cad and Rainbow of Recalcitrance)

my experience of E5 or above is very limited so it may be that these P (protection) grades are not representative of what you find in practice (i havent been on the P4 routes i give as examples so i dont know how they feel 'in the flesh'); if somebody has other ideas for how a protection grade would work please suggest.

the routes:

Poetry Pink
Flashdance
Rimsky Korsakov
True Grip
Right Wall
Pretty Girls Make Graves
Lord of the Flies
Warpath
Energy Crisis
The Cruise
Run Fast, Run Free
The Cad
Barbarella
Get Some In
Headhunter
The Minotaur
Hunter Killer

sport and protection grade for each please.

if anyone is thinking 'why bother with this / we already have trad grades?' my view, rightly or wrongly, is that a combination of a sport grade and a protection grade provides a more accurate picture of a routes difficulty. certainly, i feel it demystifies routes (E grades can seem scary - they shouldnt and a different system might people overcome this) and gives those very familiar with sport grades a system for direct comparison.

thanks

In reply to ksjs: From the ones I've done/been on/know about:

Poetry Pink - F6c/+
Flashdance - F6b+/6c?
Rimsky Korsakov
True Grip
Right Wall - F6c
Pretty Girls Make Graves
Lord of the Flies - F7b
Warpath
Energy Crisis
The Cruise
Run Fast, Run Free
The Cad -F6c/+
Barbarella - F7a (for the direct)
Get Some In -F7a
Headhunter
The Minotaur
Hunter Killer

Andy F

In reply to ksjs: Of only minor assistance but as a starter:

The Cad F6c+ P3
Rimsky Korsakov F7a P1
Right Wall F6c P2

I prefer your four tier P-grades to the ones in the Yorks Grit guide, always felt that if P3 was reserved for chop routes only then that made P2 a very broad category.
To add a few caveats to the above, they were done over a a three year period which will add some inconsistency; I was too warm on RW, too cold on RK, and it was too windy on TC; The Cad has the extra dimension of mildly suspect rock when you are run out which makes it more exciting, but isn't particularly reflected in the way I attributed the P-grades.

In reply to ksjs: I've only been on the 'E4' ones but
Poetry Pink - F6b/6b+
Flashdance - F6a/6a+
Right Wall - F6b+

All P2???

In reply to ksjs:

Not done all of them (and what about Lakes routes?!!!) but here goes...

Flashdance - P2 scary but you won't hurt yourself.
True Grip - P1/P2
Right Wall - P2 but possibly P3 if you fall wrongly from just below the porthole
Lord of the Flies - P2 but could be P3 since the nut placement below the crux blew.
Run Fast Run Free - P1 Well it is if you can hang on to place all the gear!

However I think you are effectively running into the same issue as with the UK tech grade - namely that you are trying to use one value to indicate different things. What if you have a route that is bold but very easy except at a well protected crux section?

Craig Smith mentioned on the other thread that he suggested the P system for grit routes in place of the adjectival grade and I think that it is better suited to highball boulder problems and short routes than things like The Cad.

With current guidebooks accepting different grading systems for different styles of routes, maybe the P grade could be useful. Also remember that the adjectival grade (including "E" grades) are the grade of the route or pitch just like the French/sport grade which is why I haven't put a sports grade down for anything.

ALC

In reply to ksjs:
Headhunter 6b+ maybe 6c P2+
Minotaur 6c or 7a depending on height P2+

and also Just Klingon which is pretty much a sport route P1 and about 6c+/ 7a and a grit one Edge Lane P4 F 6a

Interesting to see what others think

In reply to ksjs: Similar in vein, although minus the P-grade element:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=222446

In reply to ksjs:

Working on P1, P2, P3 (or blank, R, X in american terms) on the ones I've done or failed on

In reply to ksjs:

warpath 6c/+ P1
headhunter 6c P1+ (although its fiddly to get the good gear)

Rimsky Korsakov ~F7a P2
Right Wall 6c P3
Barbarella - P1 F7a to the big break and rest. Fell off direct finish - F7a+?
Headhunter F6c/+ P2
The Minotaur P3 bold low down, hard safe crux F7a

In reply to ksjs: Not done 'em all, but here's the ones I have done.

Disclaimer: All grades are subjective!

Poetry Pink - F7a+ P3
Flashdance - F6b+ P4
Rimsky Korsakov - F6c P2
True Grip ?
Right Wall - F6c+ P3
Pretty Girls Make Graves - F7b P1
Lord of the Flies - F7a/+ P2/3
Warpath - F6c+ P2
Energy Crisis ?
The Cruise - F7a P1/2
Run Fast, Run Free - F7a P1/2
The Cad - F6c+ P3/4
Barbarella - F7a+ P1
Get Some In - F7a P1
Headhunter - F6c+ P1/2
The Minotaur - F7a P3
Hunter Killer ?

In reply to Aly:


WARNING: All 'Aly Grades' are relative to the size of your legs, technique and an almost completely warped sense of grading.

In reply to Aly: Flashadance F6a/+ - but this gets UK 6a?

In reply to a lakeland climber: i do really need to get to the Lakes more - i do most of my climbing in north Wales hence the bias, sorry.

WRT your question on bold but easy, i guess id give that P3 or 4 using my gear system. you can hurt yourself / do worse on a climb at any grade so this wouldnt be inconsistent. i do however see the limitation.

i dont see why P1-4 or whatever system you choose isnt useful for longer pitches. i think this and a sport grade could provide good additional information. as mentioned in the other thread, E grades can be too broad thus they dont actually achieve what they need to in some cases.

In reply to Gareth H: i think i have never fallen on a F6a route and id love to do Edge Lane so, according to your assessment, i should be fine. not sure it would feel like F6a though! will have a closer look next time im there...

In reply to Ian Patterson: i know people go on about Warpath being E4 but i seconded it not long ago and it did feel a step up from some of the harder E4s ive done. i was though seconding and never climb as well on second so not straightforward to assess; the climbing definitely felt like it needed an urgent approach and some of the holds (almost in a slate style) only worked when used from a certain angle.

In reply to Steve Ramsden: i had a look at Barbarella when last there and decided i would definitely be sloping off left (after a lie down in the break) if i made it that far - that headwall looked pretty blank.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: good knowledge Jack. interesting to see that even in what should be a less subjective system there can be considerable variance in peoples assessments, especially in terms of gear. i guess though that what one man considers safe, another may be less than happy with. Poetry Pink and Right Wall in particular seem to generate debate.

In reply to ksjs:

It's certainly borderline, it would be tough at E4 so I'm happy to take E5. As you say it needs a positive approach. Did Magallens Wall the same day which I though significantly harder and solid E5 (or 6c+/7a P2!).

In reply to ksjs: thanks all for suggestions. certainly some good information and more artillery to convince myself to get on some of those mentioned. apologies for including some E4/5s, as the suggested grades show however they are largely the same as their 'true' E5 counterparts.

In reply to Ian Patterson: have heard Magellans Wall is 'interesting' - gets E4 on UKC logbook but is in the upper half of the E5s on the north wales rock graded list http://www.groundupclimbing.com/upload/members/NWR%20Graded%20List.pdf

do you / does anyone think there is a genuine chance of an alternative or complimentary trad grading system catching on in the uk? or would there just be too much resistance and romanticism about the 'poetry' of E grades / the systems history?

In reply to ksjs: Judging by the other posts I may have been slightly undergrading, so I reckon Just Klingon is 6C+, minotaur I reckon 6b+ lower, 7a higher up and edge lane maybe 6b, I wouldn't want to get you in trouble as the crux is at the top. One of the best routes i've ever done and didn't find it scary to lead, though seconded my mate later and found it dead hard and really scary,

Just Klingon is a great E5 , almost a clip up with a good ish knee bar rest at half height,

Gareth

In reply to ksjs: The head wall of Barbarella is ok if you don't get lost, find yourself in the situation of having your hand in a perfect friend 2 placement and unable to take it out to put in said friend and then take a 40ft+ lob...

Andy F

In reply to Gareth H: i should definitely have a crack at this. Mother Night first though. i realise that although 'only' UK 5c Edge Lane shouldnt be treated casually - its very enticing though, maybe a first step on the way to Master's Edge?

In reply to andy farnell: What a confusing thread ?

In reply to ksjs: mother night is great too, well protected, though pretty hard, not far off just klingon and you have to place the gear. Amazing 3d climbing, but damm pumpy,

Have fun,

Gareth

In reply to ksjs:

This thread is just plain daft. OK, maybe to stimulate discussion but...If you're climbing a route on sight then there's all the difference in the world between trad and bolted. If it's bolted you look up, count the bolts, take the requisite number of clippers and set off. After the second bolt you are (usually!) safe. If it's trad it's, what gear shall I take? Big stuff, small stuff? You get to a crack and it's flared. None of your gear will go in. You are pumped. Shit!

In reply to Al Evans: thats obviously why people were able to post coherent replies

In reply to Pekkie: why daft? lots of climbers use sport grades when discussing trad climbs. if you read the other thread i referenced, youll see Dave Turnbull (BMC CEO) offering his thoughts on sport grades for certain trad routes and, moreover, explaining that the reason for doing so is that, on occasions, the E grade isnt sufficient. not so daft.

In reply to ksjs:
The key phrase is 'certain trad routes'. Yes, if it's an outcrop route, say, where there is only so much gear, you know what it is and it's easy to place. You could compare it with a bolted route. And you can do a mind game - if this route was bolted what would the sport grade be? I was thinking more of a multi-pitch hard trad route on a big crag.

In reply to ksjs:

I think its a great thread.

In reply to Pekkie: Your profile says you've onsighted E3 and worked E5. When you worked the E5 and went for the lead what type of grade do you think would be more appropriate, the E5 tech whatever onsight grade or the sport grade equivalent. As you go higher up the grades the proportion of onsight ascents of each route drops so as the other thread referred to says the sport grade becomes more meaningful then.

In reply to Pekkie:
Amazingly enough, there are multi-pitch climbs out there given sport grades .. I can't see the problem?

In reply to ksjs: What an excellent thread. Can we add some Swanage routes?

Fly Crazy But Free F7b or F7b+ P1
Warlord F6c P1
Vikings F6c+ P3
Zoolookologie F7a P2
Barracuda F6c P1
The Fin F7a P3
Cima Petite F7a+ P1
Wide Awake in America F7b P2

I could be well out with some (or all) of the above - what does anyone else think? I've also strayed onto E4s - the list was looking too short.

And there are a lot more routes that I've not been on...

Nowhere to Run
Polaris
Naked and Savage
Monsters of Rock
Giantslayer
The Mind Cathedral
The Lean Machine
Mother Africa
Wall of the Worlds
Relax and Swing

That's the 3* routes. There's loads of 2* routes as well but it would be a lot of typing.

In reply to matt perks:

Nowhere to Run
Polaris
Naked and Savage
Monsters of Rock
Giantslayer 7a
The Mind Cathedral
The Lean Machine
Mother Africa 6c+
Wall of the Worlds 7a
Relax and Swing
Jo 90 6c+
Ice Queen 7a

In reply to ksjs:

Great topic - really inspires you to try some of these routes!

On the subject of Warpath, Magellan's:

Warpath 6c/6c+ and P1/2
Magellan's 6c+/7a P2 (definitely harder than Warpath)

Also Trail of Tears 6c+ P3

In reply to ksjs:

Rimsky Korsakov F6c+ P2
True Grip F6b+ P2 (E4?)
Right Wall F6c P3
Energy Crisis F7a/+ P1
Run Fast, Run Free F7a P1
The Cad F6c+ P3/4
Barbarella F7a+ P1
Get Some In F7a P1
Headhunter F6c P2
The Minotaur F6c-7a+ (reach-dependent) P3 start, P1 crux.

Some others:
Positron: 6c+ P1/2, 6b+ P2
The Long Run: 6c (Direct 6c+) P3/4
The Cow: 6c+ P1
Heart of Gold 6c P2/3, 6c+ P2
Darkinbad: 6c+ P1/2 (5+ P4 start)
Black Magic: 6c+ P3

In reply to ksjs:

You know, whenever I see sport routes for trad routes I have the same question - are we talking about a hypothetical toprope grade for the climbing, or are we talking about an equivalent onsight grade?

In my limited experience, onsighting E5 takes about the same amount of effort as onsighting F7a/F7a+, with the increased mental demands of bold routes compensating reasonably well for the drop in physical difficulty.

Anyway, I've only done one on your list:

Poetry Pink F6c+ (cruxy) P2 (but only P2 for the mantel)

Others:

Hairless Heart F6a (and that's being generous - it'd be about F5b at Buoux!) P3
The Cumbrian F7a P1
Fay F6c P1
Risk Business F6c P3/4, F6b P2/3, F7a P2/3, F4+ P2 (I don't remember this one very well, as I led the easy pitches)

In reply to TimB: I know what you mean about how to equate the experience of a trad route with a French grade. I think on routes that are headpointed, when a French grade is quite often given, then it is the physical difficulty of climbing the route on top-rope that gives the French grade (and since the route is being top-roped prior to the headpoint this gives the opportunity to assess the French grade) so I was making an attempt to come up with the grade the route would be if it was bolted - or perhaps more relevantly, how hard the route feels to second. However, those closer to 'the scene' may be able to offer a clearer explanation.

In reply to ksjs:
where did you get hold of my tick list for the summer!

cool thread, i am determined not to get sucked in to E5's by the easy sport grades they are getting. Is it 6c+ including placing the gear? thats what i want to know.

Poetry Pink
Flashdance
Rimsky Korsakov
True Grip
Right Wall
Pretty Girls Make Graves
Lord of the Flies
Warpath
Energy Crisis
The Cruise
Run Fast, Run Free
The Cad
Barbarella
Get Some In
Headhunter
The Minotaur
Hunter Killer

In reply to Richard White: Thanks Rich. Any opinion on the ones I gave grades for - I think you have done some of them?

In reply to tonanf:

Hi Tony,

The sport grade given to a trad route is the grade it would be if it had a line of bolts in it, ie as a sport route.

It does not take into account the extra fun of having to place protection as well. This is one of the reasons why there is quite a lot of people onsighting, lets say 6c+ / 7a sport routes, but no where near as many people onsighting E5. There is a significantly higher level of skill required to hang around and place protection on routes of that grade and above.

Hopefully see you soon.

Rich.

In reply to ksjs:

yeah totally agree, not daft at all....it's always instructive to see how your trad onsighting is compared to your sports onsighting. Once you know the tech difficulty of a trad route then it leaves you to worry about the pro....ie once you know that in theory you can do the moves you can focus on other stuff....if you take this approach you might try and succeed on stuff you otherwise wouldn't consider.

In reply to ksjs:

Godd thread - I know they're not E5+, but I'm also interested in what sport grades people would give:

Resurrection
Comes The Dervish

?

In reply to 1234None:

No idea about Resurrection but thought the Dervish felt about F6b.

In reply to 1234None:

Resurrection is about the same as or maybe a touch harder than Right Wall, though it depends on which finish you take. The lack of ledges makes the whole thing feel more continuous (and better) than RW. So say 6c+, certainly harder than pretty well any 6c sport route I've done.

Dervish is an odd one as we don't really have slab sports routes in this country. It's a long time since I've done it but 6b/6b+ would be a ball-park guess.

ALC

In reply to 1234None:

Resurrection - 6c+ P2

Comes The Dervish - 6b P3

In reply to Steve Ramsden:

Dervish - P3!!!! You can lace it apart from the first two or three metres and the last very easy section. We used to have competitions to see who could get most runners in - the record was in the mid-twenties which equates to about a runner a metre...

ALC

In reply to Richard White:


The other factor is that on a lot of trad routes you need have much more confidence that you can do the climbing - this means you'll often spend a lot longer on the route, going up and down, checking out moves, looking for more gear etc before committing yourself. Also on a sport route you've got the next bolt to go for which generally helps in allowing yourself to commit even if you getting really pumped - can be quite different if you know that when you get higher you're still going to need the energy to fiddle some gear in.

In reply to a lakeland climber: P3 for the start, then P1. People fall/fail on the start. Even though you can get small gear I've heard of people snapping rps and decking out.

In reply to Andy Hobson:

Yeah, I reckon about 6b too for Dervish, but more sustained than cruxy. Maybe P2.

I may get on Resurrection sometime soon so will see what I think re sport grade for that one then.

In reply to 1234None:

In reply to Ian Patterson,tonanf, etc..:





I refrained from posting on the thread about whether the E-Grade is broken but I'm struggling to restrain myself from this one.

This is exactly why I don't think that giving a trad route a sport grade is useful. They are just not the same. A lot of the time getting the gear in on a trad route is the hardest part. It's generally going to be easier with a load of bolts in. On trad you have to hang around, find the gear, fiddle it in, work it out, its a different type of endurance.

Folk reckon that Doubting Thomas at Malham would be about 7b bolted but I'd bet my bottom dollar that those on-sighting 7b on the catwalk wouldn't on-sight Doubting. In fact, I reckon most people red-pointing 8a on the catwalk wouldn't on-sight Doubting. What does tell you?

The two types of climbing are just different. It's like comparing apples to pairs in my opinion.

For this reason I don't think this is a good thread at all. I don't see what use this information is and how its going to help with anything. If people think route x is 6c+ and they can on-sight 6c+ then guess again cos believe me when you throw yourself at something like the cad you're going to find it a lot f#cking harder than some 6c+ sport route you've just done. Not to mention sh#t scary.


I generally know exactly what I'm going to be in for by:
a) Looking at the grade.
b) Reading the description.
c) Looking at the line.

I don't need to know is 6c or 7a, how's that going to help? Its not.

The problem is, most people just don't know how to use to E grade system properly. Fortunately for me, I don't have this problem cos I'm from the LAKES.

Easy.

In reply to Alpha:

Some good points made alpha. Luckily I'm from the LAKES too and I am also able to use the E grade system properly.

I would say I have to agree. Its an interesting thread but ultimately flawed. For example - The Cumbrian, F7a, P1. Well I can climb F7a and definitely place gear at P1 level however I'd be unsure of my ability to get up the Cumbrian onsight.

I just don't think the grading systems are at all interchangeable.For me, trad is about so much more than the ability to complete a move or sequence of moves. Its about self-confidence, the ability to hang on and fiddle gear in, the uncertainty of where the next piece of gear is coming etc. Don't get me wrong - I'm not knocking sports climbing. I have a lot of respect for people who climb hard on bolts.

For me trad and sports are like Lakes climbers and Peak district climbers - different breeds.

In reply to MONKEY78:

Obviously the french and uk grading systems aren't totally interchangeable, but thats not to say that giving a trad route a french grade won't shed any light whatsoever on the difficulty of the route. For example a route which is F7a to top rope, is going to be physically much harder than one hat is 6c. That is why this thread isn't flawed.

In reply to Alpha:

You completely miss the point. The issue is about comparing one trad route with another. If you think this has got anything to do with sport routes you are utterly missing the point.

For instance I've seconded 'Get Some In' and know that I could lead similar routes if going well, but that anything hard/more sustained than it's 'f7a' climbing would be beyond me.


Following on from my above example, if you can tell whether a well protected E5 is easy f7a or hard f7a+ climbing from the above, in the absence of a graded list or a specific 'low/high in the grade' comment then you know something that the rest of us don't.

The level of climbing difficulty on E5s and E6s is vast and a sport grade allows me to decide what to attempt by comparing routes with ones I've done before and also by eliminating those that are obviously beyond me currently (i.e. anything that is f7a+ or harder).


As above, it tells you how the climbing compares to other TRAD routes. It also helps me in that if it's 7a+ I'll ignore it this year and save it for later, anything easier, I then know that I can at least consider leading it as I'd be able to second it clean.

I know perfectly well how to use E grades and I agree that they are not broken, however it is the UK tech grade is utterly useless. Using sport grades is a fix to that problem and is actually nothing to do with the E-grade itself.

However, there is the minor issue that some well-protected routes are perhaps under-graded and the sport grade helps highlight this and allows people to make a more informed decision about whether to attempt the onsight or wait until they are stronger.

In reply to duncan b:

Perhaps.
However I quite like the "flexibility" of the british technical system.
Sports grades are an attempt at greater precision I guess, however due to differences in body shape and size and style of different climbers I would perhaps worry that this could have consequences if applied to trad routes. I guess it doesn't really matter if a tall mans F7a is a short mans F7a+ on a sport route because as a shortie you could just drop onto the bolt. However were you facing a fall of consequence on an E5 you might be quite dissapointed to discover this disparity.

For me, trad is about adventure. Its about getting on a route, knowing its roughly english xy but accepting that it might be harder or easier than other routes you've climbed before at the same grade. Its that uncertainty that makes it exciting. If you get on a route thats nails and you tick it by the skin of your teeth, you obviously go down the pub and tell your mates it was easy. It would be no fun really to go down you pub and tell your mates that the Cumbrian was actually 7a, and not 7a+. And even if you did some shortie would probably pipe up and argue otherwise.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

umm what he said.

In reply to duncan b:

That is not necessarily correct though because its doesn't take into account the physical diffculty of:
i) locating gear
ii) putting it in

If it was bolted, like a sport route, then yeah, you'd expect F7a to be physically harder than a F6c. But the F6c you are trying to give a trad route might involve a really tiring gear placements.

Classic case in point. Arms race at Avon. If it was bolted it might be no harder than 6b+. Unfortunately, its one of the biggest pumps of its grade in the south west because you have to put gear in which gets a tad streny after a while.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

My response to you Mark is:

Given the Cad 'might' only be equivalent to F6c+. Would you fancy having a lead of this?

After all, this should tell you that 'it shouldn't be beyond you'.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

And another thing. I've not idea where this notion that the uk tech grade is useless has come from. Its easy:

6a - Awkward
6b - Hard
6c - Desperate.

What's so hard about that.

In reply to ksjs:

Slightly of topic but does anybody have any ide what sport grade Stroll On (E3 6a) might get?

I was well rested below the roof, had plenty of good gear in but still fell off...i would guess tricky 6cish.

In reply to Morgan Woods:

Hi Morgan,

As you can tell, i'm intrigued by all of this.

Why would you like to know?

Alpha

In reply to Alpha:

just curious really....in the last few months i've managed to increase my sport onsight grade to 7a+ but couldn't manage my first E3 onsight.

In reply to Morgan Woods:

Like I've said before. I just think they are inherently different. Its just a different ball game.

Years ago I remember talking to this lad at Langy Boulders. He said that was off to font and he wanted to climb 8a out there because he'd managed a few in the uk. We then got talking about trad routes and he asked whether I'd done Rigor Mortis (an E2 on Castle Rock for those that don't know). I told him I'd done it and asked why he'd wanted to know. He said that he was thinking of giving it a spin but wasn't sure whether he'd be able to do it or not. I remember thinking, Jesus, you boulder Font 8a and you're not sure whether you'd get up an E2. Then I figured, again, its just different.

In reply to TimB: at this level, i think we're talking (at least i am) onsight. weird to hear / see how views vary on Poetry Pink.

In reply to duncan: thanks for filling in some blanks. looks like youd give Rimsky Korsakov E5 before youd give True Grip E5?

In reply to Morgan Woods: exactly - am far more psyched / confident to get on some of the stuff ive listed as a result of this thread.

In reply to Alpha: i think anyone doing this is aware that placing gear can add significantly to the difficulty as can the commitment / fear factor. as pointed out, the trad grade can however be lacking at times; the sport grade can be used as a guide or useful additional information - certainly it can help inspire confidence.

In reply to MONKEY78: yeah but surely the same applies to UK tech grades ie if youre short its UK 6b rather than 6a for example?

thats not the point though, the idea is to give an idea of the 'pure' comparative difficulty of the climbing

In reply to Morgan Woods: tricky 6c sounds about right (onsight). relatively straightforward once done.

In reply to Morgan Woods: heres a few to got at:

Plumbline, Pen Trwyn - total classic
Foil, Cromlech - not as cruxy as Stroll On but more sustained
Left Wall Direct Finish - not that much more climbing than Left Wall and a whole extra E grade
Strike, Upper Tier Gogarth - hard E3 / soft E4 but well-protected. if you like physical sport routes then this should suit
The Sun, Rhoscolyn - pumpy and brilliant
Colossus, Rainbow Walls - guess it depends on whether you like slate but this is stunning if a touch bold feeling at points

In reply to 1234None:
6b+ for Dervish
6c/+ for Resurrection

In reply to ksjs:

cheers....have done Foil, although not onsight, and the others are on my to do list, although don't quite see the point of LW direct finish....those "teeth" out left are might appealing when you're level with them.

In reply to Morgan Woods: i have to disagree - i think the normal finishes to Left Wall / Resurrection / Cemetary Gates are all a bit illogical / eliminate: Left Wall should finish up the crack, Cemetary Gates up Grim Jim and Resurrection should follow the crack rightwards. having said that i obviously was very happy to gain the sanctuary of the jugs when i did Left Wall and was equally glad to take the softer option on Resurrection and go left.

In reply to ksjs:

IMO I would discount the 6b/+ - its definitely significantly harder than that, 2 hard sections with english 6a/6b moves. I gave it 6c+ because it seemed about right for a cruxy slab with great rests between the hard moves, though wouldn't argue with 7a very strongly (Splitstream has much more hard climbing and might be worth 7a+). Overall I thought it was just worth E5 for mixture of hard safe climbing and bold but easier stuff.

In reply to Alpha:

That's useful information - if for some reason I wake up feeling ludicrously bold one morning then knowing that, there is no reason why I might not - whilst not comparable I've onsight DWS'd various routes around 'f6c' with absolutely no intention of taking the falls.

Although my mental state can vary day to day, my physical ability doesn't. One morning I could wake up feeling happy to solo f6c+, but the next morning I'm not going to wake up feeling I can confident to onsight f7b as it's physically too hard for me 80%+ of the time. Therefore just the E grade doesn't tell the whole picture when the difficulty of the grade range spans your physical ability.

In many circumstances I want [note; 'want', not 'need'] more PRECISE information about a route than just the E grade and tech grade. In the absence of traditional sources of this information, sport grades can provided this.

One move of 6a, I'll onsight 99% of the time, twenty moves, I'll probably fail, in between it's anybodies guess. Traditionally I'll ask people how a route compares to other routes to enable me to have a far better estimate of success/failure. If you've done a dozen routes in common with someone then that is perfect and how climbing has worked for decades, but if you haven't done sufficient routes in common then the appropriate 'lingua franca' that we have is sport grades (or bouldering grades).

Equally with routes graded tech 6b I'm normally at a complete loss as to whether I'll be able to do the move. Even if it's only one/two 6b moves for me it will just be a guess as the range of difficultly spans my physical limits. Ideally I'd like a comparison with other similar routes I've done, but as a short-hand, if someone tells me that the crux sequence might be around V4 bouldering I'll know I should be able to onsight it, however if some one tells me the crux feels like V5/V6 or the font equivalent I might as well walk away as I'd just fail.

In reply to Ian Patterson: thanks - its not one i plan to treat lightly given reputation. any thoughts on groundfall potential on this as i think its this more than anything that stops me getting on it?

In reply to Ian Patterson: I though PP was very easy for the E5 grade, more like E4. I'd stick with 6c/6c+. But it was years ago when I did it, young, bouncy and bold...

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:
And climbed at Pex all the time so could crimp link a demon! I thought it was just worth E5 but definitely borderline. As to the question about groundfalls - the mantleshelf move is definitely oversold, you wouldn't want to fall off it but it really is pretty straightforward (no more than 5b?), if you get through the moves past the first bolt it should be no problem.