/ NEWS: VIDEO: Window of Opportunity - Removable Bolts

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UKC News - on 04 Feb 2011
Chris Lindner on Window of Opportunity, 3 kbAmerican climber Chris Lindner made the first ascent of his route Window of Opportunity back in 2007.

What makes this route very interesting is the removable bolts that Chris used to protect the climb.

Watch the video:

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=60173

DavetheSlave on 04 Feb 2011 - host86-130-94-22.range86-130.btcentralplus.com
In reply to UKC News: Removable bolts?? They look more like the caving style bolts that have removable hangers rather than the whole bolt.
Richard Hall - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to DavetheSlave: They will be the rubber coated expansion bolts, look like normal expansion bolts but the expanding bit is rubber not mettle, meaning it can be un-tightened.
DavetheSlave on 04 Feb 2011 - host86-130-94-22.range86-130.btcentralplus.com
In reply to Richard Hall: That sounds safe.........not
JJL - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Richard Hall:

Do you really, truly not know how to spell "metal"?

OP:
Are there not some expansion bolts where unscrewing the head also allows the split piece to close again and the bolt to come out?
Enty - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News:

Never mind the bolt stuff - great vid - how hard does that top crux look from the crack?!!!!!

E
fionn on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News:
> ..."Another reason was relations with the local native Indian tribe who worship further north along the beach. Although there isn't any specific climbing closures, the Indians have reportedly had a history of distaste for climbers in the past, so I didn't want to add fuel to the fire with visible bolts."

But they found the drilling to be tasteful, right?
Roberttaylor - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News: I was on a spiritual search for something more and wanted to respect the environment....

So I drove my Humvee along the coast.

Lol
Mr Fuller on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Roberttaylor and Ed: Yeah, this clip just drips with American irony, doesn't it. I don't really know much about hard climbing, but surely that route was do-able on trad gear? There were at least three decent cracks you could see in the video. Is the rock not sound enough? Does he just like his drill too much?
Jus - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Enty:

The upper moves look incredibly good and hard!
gethin_allen on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Mr Fuller:
"surely that route was do-able on trad gear? There were at least three decent cracks you could see in the video."

I was thinking the same, It would probably make the route far more difficult and serious but as everyone keeps saying, why bring the challenge down to your level when you can rise to it.

I say send over Dave Macleod to teach them all about hard trad climbing.

niggle - on 04 Feb 2011
Well-meaning but hideous.

It's not the fact that bolts are made of metal that's objectionable, it's the damage to the rock they require. If bolts were made of plastic, they'd still be frowned on.
PeterJuggler - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Enty: I was surprised to find that this route is only 5.13 or about 8a. Looks harder.
mkean - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News:
Looks like a nice line but why drill a line of monos up it, it already had holds on it?
fionn on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Mr Fuller:
> (In reply to Roberttaylor and Ed) Yeah, this clip just drips with American irony, doesn't it.

Aye.

In other words what he's saying is ...

" The native Indians find climbers climbing in a place where they worship to be distasteful so, out of respect, I drilled loads of holes in the most prominant feature of the place then climbed all over it, leaving an enhanced opportunity for many more to follow. I even took the bolts out when I left because they are the removable type"
bull2010face - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to DavetheSlave:

Actually they're bomber:

http://www.vimeo.com/10674868
andy farnell - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Juggler13: Is it 5.13a (7c+) or 5.13d (8b). There is a bit of a difference. Looked more towards the 5.13d end of the scale to me, but I could be wrong. More importantly, who was the music by???

Andy F
Enty - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Juggler13:
> (In reply to Enty) I was surprised to find that this route is only 5.13 or about 8a. Looks harder.

Me too it looks nails - although I think 5:13+ creeps into 8b+ territory.

E

Enty - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to bull2010face:
> (In reply to DavetheSlave)
>
> Actually they're bomber:
>
> http://www.vimeo.com/10674868

They look good - would be so easy to put a new route up if everyone had 16 of those in their sack.

Bet they aint as cheap as a quickdraw though.

E
andy farnell - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to Juggler13)
> [...]
>
> Me too it looks nails - although I think 5:13+ creeps into 8b+ territory.
>
> E

5.14a = 8b+.

Andy F
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Enty - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to andy farnell:

Not that I'll ever experience the difference between 8b and 8b+

E
sasmojo - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News: Nice line, ashame about the bolt holes, but at least he has some awareness and thought.

The trad FA is still there for the taking guys. At roughly 8a with your first bit of gear "appearing" to be the crack at 3/4 height, where it looks sick hard. You're welcome to it. ;-)
Wiley Coyote - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to bull2010face)
> [...]
>
> They look good - would be so easy to put a new route up if everyone had 16 of those in their sack. Bet they aint as cheap as a quickdraw though.
>
Essentially looks like a glorified cam specifically designed for a drilled hole.
mkean - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to sasmojo:
The trad FA is still there for the taking guys. At roughly 8a with your first bit of gear "appearing" to be the crack at 3/4 height, where it looks sick hard. You're welcome to it. ;-)

Anyone want a job lot of small tri-cams for the bolt holes?

sasmojo - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to mkean:
> (In reply to sasmojo)
> The trad FA is still there for the taking guys. At roughly 8a with your first bit of gear "appearing" to be the crack at 3/4 height, where it looks sick hard. You're welcome to it. ;-)
>
> Anyone want a job lot of small tri-cams for the bolt holes?

Lol!
james.slater - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News: Not being funny... right where he lies down at then end, is a normal bolt and hanger... im sure of it... Get Dave Macleod on that beach!
In reply to Wiley Coyote:
> (In reply to Enty)
> [...]
> Essentially looks like a glorified cam specifically designed for a drilled hole.

That was my thoughts, and a pretty big hole too.


Chris
In reply to Enty:
>
>
> They look good - would be so easy to put a new route up if everyone had 16 of those in their sack.
>
> Bet they aint as cheap as a quickdraw though.
>
> E

I think drilling the holes is the hard part of placing bolts.


Chris
highclimber - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News: did anyone else not notice the amount of chalk there was all over the holds? That's really showing respect to the Native tribe's place of worship!
outtathaway - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News: this seemed very impressive to me. I don't see why he shouldn't have done it on bolts, don't think he was lowering the challenge to his level, if the first protection would be at 3/4 height it would be incredibly bold. Fair play on the ascent, leaving aside the environmental impact of his hummer and possible disrespect to red indian tribes.
jkarran - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News:

Nice video, those are some impressive moves on an awesome piece of rock. What a location!

As to the removable bolts, I'm not entirely sure what all the fuss is about. He's either harmlessly excentric and the locals will bolt it up properly in time or he's found a slightly awkward solution to a local access problem. They look like some sort of conventional sleeve/expansion anchor that's removable rather than the cabled devices in the video linked above. Personally I don't really see the point, if fixed gear poses an access/PR problem then I'd personally be content with a toprope but that's me and I don't have cool videos made about me for good reason.

jk
rtwilli4 - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to highclimber:

The chalk would be gone w/in 48 hours or at least by the next storm. That rock gets pounded by waves during winter storms.

As for the removable bolts... they are pretty cool pieces of equipment and not that new. The originals would get stuck in the hole if you weighted them but the newer ones come right out even after big whips.

I think the whole video is a bit ridiculous myself. I remember the first time I saw "Spray" which is where this vid is taken from. I wanted to throw up. Everyone in that crew is so full of themselves. Makes us American climbers look bad.

We aren't all like that... I promise.
Colm_Shannon on 04 Feb 2011 - 10.5.50.253 [79.140.208.86]
In reply to UKC News: To be fair, its easy enough to look at a vid ans say o that could have been done on trad gear. You could apply that mentality to almost any sport route if you wanted to... i.e. im sure youd get a cam into action direct somewhere... Its a good looking route, he put some thought into bolting it and it would pretty much be a solo if it was done on trad.
Andy Stephenson - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News: great bit of rock, but when atching the video I was thinking "why not just top-rope it"?
That would bypass the environmental problems, and I don't see that such a bolt-clipping exercise is a lot better style than a TR ascent anyway.
Andy Stephenson - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Andy Stephenson: ...watching, I meant!
Jonny2vests - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Roberttaylor:
> (In reply to UKC News) I was on a spiritual search for something more and wanted to respect the environment....
>
> So I drove my Humvee along the coast.
>
> Lol

Lol x 2.
Tom Last - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to rtwilli4:

>
> We aren't all like that... I promise.

Hi Five! ;-)
Fraser on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Andy Stephenson:
> "why not just top-rope it"?

Because that's not climbing....it's just swinging.







Ok, I'll add a smiley. Reluctantly.

Fraser on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Fraser:

Doh! ;)
deaddogsdie - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Andy Stephenson:

"I don't see that such a bolt-clipping exercise is a lot better style than a TR ascent anyway."

Have you ever been sport climbing?
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jkarran - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to deaddogsdie:

> (In reply to Andy Stephenson)
> "I don't see that such a bolt-clipping exercise is a lot better style than a TR ascent anyway."

Well I made a similar comment further up thread and while I'm suspicious of the language Andy's used I basically agree with him. He makes a good point and one that's hard to argue against logically.

> Have you ever been sport climbing?

Yes.
jk
Andy Stephenson - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to deaddogsdie: I'm certainly no sport climbing expert.
But surely a redpoint of a heavily-bolted route is getting so close in equivalence to a top rope ascent that the difference is academic?

Perhaps it warrants a thread on whether a new route climbed on top-rope should be recorded as a "proper" first ascent if the alternative amounts to a boltfest.
MJ - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Andy Stephenson:

"I was thinking "why not just top-rope it"?"

or not climb it at all?


Jonny2vests - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Andy Stephenson:
> (In reply to deaddogsdie)

> Perhaps it warrants a thread on whether a new route climbed on top-rope should be recorded as a "proper" first ascent if the alternative amounts to a boltfest.

Do it.
hobley on 04 Feb 2011 - 95.75.13.33 whois?
For the record, Chris used these bolts http://fixeusa.com/triplex_3-piece_removable_bolt.htm and not the others mentioned above.

Nicholas
JKinsella - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Andy Stephenson:

No it really doesn't. Anyway, if you think about it a 'bolt fest' with more pauses to clip would be harder then a top rope or wider spaced bolts physically speaking.
HamishD - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to Roberttaylor)
> [...]
>
> Lol x 2.

x 3
mark s - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Roberttaylor:
> (In reply to UKC News) I was on a spiritual search for something more and wanted to respect the environment....
>
> So I drove my Humvee along the coast.
>
> Lol

with a toyota steering wheel?
richardh - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News:

sounds remarkably similar to Mr and Mr Edwards ENP system that wasn't too popular here or in Spain.
McBirdy - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News:

Never mind the climb and the bolts... What about the f#cking tool in the video! Thank god our elite climbers here in the UK aren't so up their own ar#es. Oh, and it wasn't actually all that hard, was it? What a ####ing pr#ck.

Ben
Lemony - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to richardh: What, in that it's completely different?
stewieatb on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Lemony:
> (In reply to richardh) What, in that it's completely different?

In what sense is it different? ENPs require you to carry an assload of #3 rocks, these bolt holes require a different, more complicated, more expensive piece of equipment for every clip.

FWIW the damage was done when he drilled it, taking the bolts out just reduces the visual impact. Does anyone know how the bolt holes stand up to repeated whippers? Somebody mentioned that the bolts hold up pretty well but do they damage the placements over time?
Fidmark - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News: That must be the cheesiest video i've ever seen
pec on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News: If they did really big ones they could sell them to would be ascentionists of Master's Edge. Ron's amigos must be getting a bit old now.
Abu777 - on 04 Feb 2011
Awesome! Best example of grunting I've seen thus far - emphasised of course by the fantastic 'triple repeat' video edits of the grunt at hand.....they almost get louder with each repeat...
"ARRGHHHH"
"ARRRRGHHHH"
"AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!"

Special
Climber1806 on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to gethin_allen: Well said! removeable bolts? what a joke!! that would have been a nice route done on trad, there were loads of placements, and most of them right next to a bolt! Sport climbers grow a pair!!
danm - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to pec:

No, you just need a Mastercam or other narrow head camming unit for that. If he used Triplex bolts, these are just a sleeve bolt manufactured for climbing. They'll cause just as much damage to the rock as a standard expansion bolt, the only difference is you can remove them to prevent theft and corrosion. Ethics aside, the main practical disadvantage is having to access from the top to install them before climbing.

I'm not sure I get his argument about using removable bolts out of respect to the local indigenous people. Surely not telling anyone what he'd done, and not making a video about it, would have been most respectful, as then they would never know about it and could not be offended? Either that, or not done it, full stop.
jon on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Climber1806:
> (In reply to gethin_allen) Sport climbers grow a pair!!

Tits?

richardh - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to Lemony:

completely?

The concept is the same. You drill a series of holes up the cliff and fill them with the relevant replaceable "gear of your choice".
tdubber - on 04 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News:

he should climb it when the tide is in for a SWS[shallow water solo}!!!
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roddyharper - on 04 Feb 2011
Low impact - it could've easy been no impact . poof
James Oswald - on 05 Feb 2011
In reply to Climber1806:
Grow up, it's getting sad and repetitive. Some people like bolts, some don't.
Why can't we all just settle with the fact that some climbs are bolted and some aren't?
James
JKinsella - on 05 Feb 2011
In reply to richardh:

Its not the same, ENPs caused a significant amount more damage to the rock then bolts do and they required a nut size that wasn't widely available, not exactly a rock 3. Removable bolts make sense here purely because its close to the sea and it keeps it safe. There was never an even half reasonable excuse for ENPs, they are completely ridiculous. Even more ridiculous then trad climbing.
Blunt - on 05 Feb 2011
In reply to Abu777:
> Awesome! Best example of grunting I've seen thus far - emphasised of course by the fantastic 'triple repeat' video edits of the grunt at hand.....they almost get louder with each repeat...
> "ARRGHHHH"
> "ARRRRGHHHH"
> "AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!"
>
> Special

More raaaaarrrrghing than my five year old and two year old put together. It would be banned in our house.
Andy Stephenson - on 05 Feb 2011
In reply to James Oswald: whether or not you think a new sport climb is newsworthy; some crags are OK for bolted climbs and some parts of some crags are OK.
I think that this one is reminiscent of a great line on a natural gritstone outcrop. Along with all the stuff about Indians and the environment, everything (to me, at least) points towards waiting for a trad ascent. As a bolted line (whether the bolts remain seems irrelevant - that's only about corrosion anyway), it appears a bit futile and the amount of drilling unacceptable.
Michael Ryan - on 05 Feb 2011
In reply to gethin_allen:
> (In reply to Mr Fuller)

> I say send over Dave Macleod to teach them all about hard trad climbing.

There is lots of hard trad climbing in the USA.

John1923 - on 05 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News:

Surely the drill holes will create a weakness in the rock that the sea/wind will errode. Meaning that in 30 years that nice line of monos will become a line of pockets/slopers.

He should just top-rope it.
remus - on 05 Feb 2011
In reply to John1923: i think you're overestimating the effect erosion will have on the bolt holes.
3leggeddog on 05 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News:

The removable bolts have done their job; grabbed the headlines and got folks talking about the route, raising the climbers profile. The "indigenous population" bit is a US specific form of greenwash.

Top end climbing is becoming more about PR than performance (says the vs duffer here)
Wee Davie - on 05 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News:

Looks a great line and route but the whole respecting the rock guff is so hypocritical it taints the video badly.
I wouldn't have criticised him if he'd just stuck a line of Jim Titt special marine bolts up the thing and just claimed it as a conventional sport route btw.
JJL - on 05 Feb 2011
In reply to 3leggeddog:

> Top end climbing is becoming more about PR than performance (says the vs duffer here)

Rich Simpson certainly agrees with you.

(just testing a small theory I have)
Rock Lover on 05 Feb 2011 - 95.148.8.162 whois?
In reply to UKC News: Freddie Flintoff looky likey. Reminds me of Reservoir Dogs at Widdop as far as the line goes, looks stunning.
Morgan Woods - on 06 Feb 2011
In reply to Ben Darvill:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> Never mind the climb and the bolts... What about the f#cking tool in the video! Thank god our elite climbers here in the UK aren't so up their own ar#es. Oh, and it wasn't actually all that hard, was it? What a ####ing pr#ck.
>
> Ben

not sure what makes him a prick. He just said he wanted to do something new, went looking for it, found it then did it. What have you done lately?
Fraser on 06 Feb 2011
In reply to Ben Darvill:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> Never mind the climb and the bolts... What about the f#cking tool in the video! Thank god our elite climbers here in the UK aren't so up their own ar#es. Oh, and it wasn't actually all that hard, was it? What a ####ing pr#ck.


Strange, I hear he speaks very highly of you.

JLS on 06 Feb 2011
In reply to hobley:

These bolts look quite good if the idea is you can get them out in ten years time when they are goosed and then re-use the same hole for the replacements.

I'm not sure puting them in and taking them back out every weekend is a leap forward. I'm thinking the holes will soon wear out.
In reply to JLS:
>
>
> These bolts look quite good if the idea is you can get them out in ten years time when they are goosed and then re-use the same hole for the replacements.
>

I don't think that is the idea at all. They are just a cam in drilled hole, to be placed and removed like any other.

Chris
JLS on 06 Feb 2011
In reply to Chris Craggs:

I'm referring to the link posted by "hobley"... Are you?

http://fixeusa.com/triplex_3-piece_removable_bolt.htm


Tobias at Home - on 06 Feb 2011
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to JLS)
> [...]
> They are just a cam in drilled hole, to be placed and removed like any other.
>
Just like at Land's End ;-)
In reply to JLS:

No, sorry. I was referring to the gear in the vid.

Chris
silo - on 06 Feb 2011
In reply to Abu777: still laughing at your post, like it
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rtwilli4 - on 07 Feb 2011
In reply to UKC News:

Do you guys think that if the UK had rock that was more suitable for sport rather than traditional climbing that you would all be a bit more open to bolted climbs? IF 75% of the routes in the UK were sport instead of trad (I have no idea the real numbers), then what would all of the bolt haters climb?

It seems that a lot of people think that American climbers bolt trad climbs but I am pretty confident that if Stanage was in the US then it would be a trad area and if the Motherlode at the Red River Gorge were in the UK then it would be bolted.

Like someone said above, you can find a cam placement on plenty of sport climbs. I mean I hate the climber in question as much as some of you appear to because he is an egotistical douche but to do that route on gear would be a bit of a solo. Sure if someone had done that first then the style would have been respected. However, this isn't at a popular climbing... it's not even a climbing area. 99.9 percent of American climbers could give a rats ass about what Linder does out on some slimy prow on a misty beach in the middle of nowhere.

I'm not trying to be a dick and I think the video sucks. If there was an access issue then Linder should have simply stayed away. I do not think, however, that saying that it should be a trad climb makes much sense. I don't think the Native Americans would know the difference.
Fraser on 07 Feb 2011
In reply to rtwilli4:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> It seems that a lot of people think that American climbers bolt trad climbs but I am pretty confident that if Stanage was in the US then it would be a trad area and if the Motherlode at the Red River Gorge were in the UK then it would be bolted.
>
A good point, well made.
GrahamD - on 07 Feb 2011
In reply to Climber1806:
> Sport climbers grow a pair!!

This isn't sport climbing

Ged Desforges - on 07 Feb 2011
My take is this:

1. If he'd just bolted the thing and climbed it, fair play. Looks like a good route. Its the fact that he harps on about respecting your environment etc, whilst driving his car along the beach, and drilling into the rock. Let's face it, if the removable bolts thing is supposed to make him look like an eco warrior, he's done it badly. It's still drilling FFS.

2. It might well be possible on trad, but it looks pretty blody hard. Even if the guy does come across as a bit of a tool, there's no doubt he's a very good climber, and I don't think watching a video, then claiming it to be "covered in natural gear" is really very helpful.

3. The US probably has a lot more hard trad climbs and trad climbers than the UK per population.

4. If he cared that much about not upsetting people who lived there, he wouldnt have climbed it. Or would have at least, as other people have suggested, toproped it. I think climbers are quick to forget that the rest of the world don't give a stuff if it's been lead or not.
suffolknick - on 07 Feb 2011
Great route but I think BS in BS productions might well stand for Bull Sh*t ... Anyone know if thats true??

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