/ Side runners, how high is too high?

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CorR - on 12 May 2013
I just did a dicey arete route today that had no gear.
I popped some gear into the middle the HVS beside it and then down climbed to the start of the arete.
I wonder could I have just climbed up to the top of the HVS and placed the runner?
Whats the ethic involving side runners?
remus - on 12 May 2013
In reply to CorR: To my mind the only important thing is that you're honest about it. It's pretty clear that high side runners can basically give you a top rope for a large portion of a route and will thus have a significant effect on the seriousness of the route. How high you go just depends on how much risk you're willing to take.
In reply to CorR:
> I just did a dicey arete route today that had no gear.
> I popped some gear into the middle the HVS beside it and then down climbed to the start of the arete.
> I wonder could I have just climbed up to the top of the HVS and placed the runner?
> Whats the ethic involving side runners?

If you "climb to the top of the HVS and placed the runner" how is that a "side runner"?

Now that's a side runner: http://www.pbase.com/chris_craggs/image/66811001


Chris
john arran - on 12 May 2013
In reply to CorR:

If you need to ask, it's too high ;-)
Chris the Tall - on 12 May 2013
In reply to CorR:
How high is too high ?

It's entirely up to you. It's your bones/life that's at risk. You need to balance that against the satisfaction to be gained. As long as you are honest, there is no need to worry what other people think.
John_Hat - on 12 May 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to CorR)
> [...]
>
> If you "climb to the top of the HVS and placed the runner" how is that a "side runner"?
>
> Now that's a side runner: http://www.pbase.com/chris_craggs/image/66811001
>
>
> Chris

Very similar to where I had my side runner on that route!

(and I fell off the first time..)
martinph78 on 12 May 2013
In reply to CorR: Rather than the height I'm thinking that this involves pre-placing gear and using an adjacent route, so isn't that more of an "ethics" issue?

I guess it depends how serious you take things. Personally I don't care and make a note when I log it.
bpmclimb - on 12 May 2013
In reply to CorR:

Generally, if the side runner is part of the route description, then you've climbed the route at the given grade. If not, then you've still climbed the route but not at the given grade.
Mark Kemball - on 12 May 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:
>

And a very good one too, I took a few lobs on that before I got up the route.
puppythedog on 12 May 2013
In reply to CorR: I'd always assumed (without any reason at all) that side runners where when you climbed off of a climb you were climbing onto another or reached to another distinct climb to place protection. Not climbed up a different one and then down climbed before starting. I am starting to believe I am wrong in this.
bpmclimb - on 12 May 2013
In reply to puppythedog:

I think you're generally right. But obviously it is possible to preplace a side runner, and people will do that from time to time.
SARS on 12 May 2013
In reply to bpmclimb:
> (In reply to CorR)
>
> Generally, if the side runner is part of the route description, then you've climbed the route at the given grade. If not, then you've still climbe he route but not at the given grade.

Yes and no. He'll have climbed the technical grade, ie the 5a, 6a or whatever. And, he'll have climbed the US yosemite grade equivalent 5.11a, 12a etc. However, he won't have climbed the adjectival UK grade e3, e4 etc since this has the danger level embedded in it.

Out of all of these I know which I think is the most irrelevant...

In reply to puppythedog:

The route in my photo is around E3 with a side runner and E5 without - you can't get at it off the route so it has to be pre-placed.


Chris
GridNorth - on 12 May 2013
In reply to CorR: There's a route on the Lower Tier at the Roaches called "Chalk storm" which, if I recall,gets a different grade depending upon how high you placed the side runners. E4 without any and E1 or E2 if you went up the crack at the side which is a different route although only a few feet away.
puppythedog on 12 May 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs: Fair enough, I wasn't commenting on the one in your photo, just my understanding. Which route is it?
puppythedog on 12 May 2013
In reply to GridNorth: Hi, I'm saving Chalkstorm until I can climb it without the side runners. Not sure if I would for other routes but for that one I will wait.
GridNorth - on 12 May 2013
In reply to CorR: There's a route on the Lower Tier at the Roaches called "Chalk storm" which, if I recall,gets a different grade depending upon how high you placed the side runners. E4 without any and E1 or E2 if you went up the crack at the side which is a different route to place gear and then traverse back in.
In reply to puppythedog:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs) Fair enough, I wasn't commenting on the one in your photo, just my understanding. Which route is it?

Hairless Heart (or Heartless Hair - I always get them mixed up) up the left edge of Great Slab at Froggatt.


Chris
SARS on 12 May 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs: hairless heart isn't it? Isn't heartless hair on Hare Crag in Eskdale?
SARS on 12 May 2013
In reply to SARS: nope, just checked. I was thinking of hareless heart on hare crag.
ads.ukclimbing.com
puppythedog on 12 May 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs: Too rich for my blood (at present) :-)
Michael Hood - on 12 May 2013
In reply to puppythedog: Not worth waiting, enjoy Chalkstorm with the side runner (an obvious bomb-proof placement in Prow Corner).

Unfortunately below the route is depressingly eroded by the instructed hordes on Prow Corner and Prow Cracks and quite a few of the holds have significantly changed since the first ascent although the crux is fairly unchanged (or it was when I last did it several years ago)
puppythedog on 12 May 2013
In reply to Michael Hood: I climbed up to the break and down climbed last time I was at the Roaches. Maybe this year I'll push on through.
bpmclimb - on 12 May 2013
In reply to SARS:
> (In reply to bpmclimb)
> [...]
>
> Yes and no. He'll have climbed the technical grade, ie the 5a, 6a or whatever. And, he'll have climbed the US yosemite grade equivalent 5.11a, 12a etc. However, he won't have climbed the adjectival UK grade e3, e4 etc since this has the danger level embedded in it.
>

You missed my point, I think, which is that if a side runner is mentioned in the route description - in other words if the runner is "allowed" - then the reduction in the danger element will already have been taken into account in the grading. Usually.

Michael Gordon - on 12 May 2013
In reply to CorR:

To my mind, side runners that involve climbing halfway up a nearby route then reversing all the way to the ground before you start are fairly pointless and illogical. You might as well just climb to the top and set up a top rope.

Is it a new line? Perhaps the route would be better just soloed after practice.
Chris the Tall - on 12 May 2013
In reply to puppythedog:
> (In reply to GridNorth) Hi, I'm saving Chalkstorm until I can climb it without the side runners. Not sure if I would for other routes but for that one I will wait.

There is another route on the slab, microstorm, which is closer to the crack, close enough that you can place runners. It's very much an eliminate, but I would say it's marginally harder, so it should make for good preparation.
puppythedog on 12 May 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall: Thank you, I'll check it out
Double Knee Bar - on 12 May 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall: A Storm in a Teacup would have been a better name.
John_Hat - on 12 May 2013
In reply to puppythedog:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs) Fair enough, I wasn't commenting on the one in your photo, just my understanding. Which route is it?

Heartless Hare.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10957
paul mitchell - on 12 May 2013
In reply to CorR: Watched Livesey do Downhill Racer with a side runner at 15 feet,on the right.Several falls by him.Just missed the deck each time.
Now has been soloed one handed by Dawes.

Mitch


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