/ How to tie in to the middle of a rope when leading

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colin8ll on 18 Jul 2013
Hi all,

I'm off to Reiff and car space is limited so my plan is just to take one 60m half rope and climb with it doubled up. My question is how should I tie into the middle of the rope? Doubled fig 8 rethreaded, doubled bowline rethreaded, fig 8 on the bite clipped with a pair of screw-gates?

Thanks in advance,
Colin
wilkie14c - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll:
i'd tie onto both free ends as normal for leading and the second would use a rethreaded overhand clipped off with a single screwgate.
CurlyStevo - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll:
I've used both of Doubled fig 8 rethreaded fig 8 on the bite clipped with a pair of screw-gates, both are fine. If leading tie on to both ends.

You could also use a bowline on the bight or even a munter hitch (for these you have to pass a bight of rope over your head, I do wonder how a munter hitch would fair if one line got cut though.
wolverine - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll: Dont do what above says. Purely tie a massive rethreaded figure of eight on the bight.
M
Double Knee Bar - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll: Lead off on a bowline on a bite, less bulky than 2 figure of 8s, leaves two ends of rope if you want to bring up two seconds too.
colin8ll on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to wilkie14c: Ah yes I would do this but I might have to take up two seconds so that's why I was wondering about tying into the middle.
Jonny2vests - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll:

Yeah, tie into the ends. The second can actually pass the middle down through their strong points, step through it, over their head and end up on a larks foot. Don't do this if you're doing anything more complicated than a single pitch followed by a walk off though.
Double Knee Bar - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Double Knee Bar: obviously be aware of its limitations.
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=14602.0
Jonny2vests - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Munter hitch? Maybe you mean girth hitch / larks foot.
CurlyStevo - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to wolverine:
> (In reply to colin8ll) Dont do what above says. Purely tie a massive rethreaded figure of eight on the bight.
> M

The downsides to a rethreaded figure of eight on the bight are that firstly there is no data I am aware of that tests how it fairs for leading if only one strand is loaded, also for seconding it is quite bulky and uses quite a lot of rope up. Still its the knot I normally use (for seconding) when I'm not concerned with saving rope.
CurlyStevo - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:
> (In reply to CurlyStevo)
>
> Munter hitch? Maybe you mean girth hitch / larks foot.

sorry yes meant girth hitch / larks foot
wilkie14c - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll:
> (In reply to wilkie14c) Ah yes I would do this but I might have to take up two seconds so that's why I was wondering about tying into the middle.

Yea will be fine for 2 seconds, just prefer the 2 ends for the leader, just less bulk than a doubled knot and krab for the leader thats all.
wilkie14c - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to wilkie14c:
> (In reply to colin8ll)
> [...]
>
> Yea will be fine for 2 seconds, just prefer the 2 ends for the leader, just less bulk than a doubled knot and krab for the leader thats all.

By that I mean it'll be fine for bringing up 2 seconds in a climbing sense.I imagaine you'll want something lasting longer than 2 seconds, even the dan osman vid takes longer than that :-D
stonemaster - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll: How about normal tie in second clips in on fig 8 on a bight after you are anchored; bring up second who unclips the rope to you and clips in the rope to the second second; then the second second comes up at the end of the rope with a normal tie in? Presumably it is straight forward short route. Good luck.
knighty - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll:

Alpine butterfly is what you need. A bit of a faff, but it works really well. No need to use a krab to clip in with.
deepsoup - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
I just watched the film here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5-YbRxceiY
It's interesting, but I don't think the warning about using it to construct a Y-hang is relevant to using it to tie in.

My vote is for the bowline on the bight btw.
Tied in with the "skipping rope" method it's only marginally more complicated and almost as quick as using a larksfoot/girth hitch.

The only downside is that its a faff if you need to untie to use the rope to reach distant anchors at the top.
deepsoup - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to knighty:
That's interesting. I haven't seen that before, how do you go about tying yourself into the middle of the rope with an Alpine Butterfly?
stonemaster - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to deepsoup: needs clip in.....:)
deepsoup - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to deepsoup:
> I just watched the film here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5-YbRxceiY

My mistake. This page is much clearer than the film alone:
http://www.peakinstruction.com/blog/2nd-round-of-testing-on-the-bowline-on-the-bight-knot/
deepsoup - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to stonemaster:
> (In reply to deepsoup) needs clip in.....:)

Ah, gotcha. I thought you'd invented some cunning way to tie into it directly (and couldn't imagine how you would without threading half the rope through your harness). :o)
deepsoup - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to stonemaster:
No, hang on a minute. knighty said "No need to use a krab to clip in with." Still baffled. Unless its a big bulky re-threaded alpine butterfly?
stonemaster - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to deepsoup: was agreeing with you that OP may not have understood the alpine butterfly which by the way is no faff.
needvert on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> (In reply to colin8ll)
> I've used both of Doubled fig 8 rethreaded fig 8 on the bite clipped with a pair of screw-gates...

If climbing with a silent partner one uses two screw gates, too. (Ergo wren industries doesn't think yerrr gonna die.)
stonemaster - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to stonemaster: sorry not OP, meant knighty
stonemaster - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to needvert: we're ALL gonna die <hollow laughter>
BStar - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to knighty:

Just out of curiosity, how do you tie in with an Alpine Butterfly and not use a krab? Do you step through the loop like you would for a girth hitch?
deepsoup - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to stonemaster:
> we're ALL gonna die <hollow laughter>

Can't fault you on the facts. ;o)

(Just out of interest - was that a "Chris Tan Death Products" hollow laugh?)
stonemaster - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to deepsoup: similar....:)
Jamie B - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll:

I use a rethreaded overhand on the bight, less bulky and instead of a stopper just clip the loop back into harness with a small screwgate.

To be honest, at most areas on Reiff you might be better with a single as you can just chuck an end down to the extra second.
lithos on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

any body ever use a 'single fishermans' ie an O/H then thread through and another O/H
around live rope and clip back. Seen it for crevasse tie ins (somewhere)

opinions ?
jkarran - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll:

For single pitches I'd lead on the ends personally, you can drop one then if it jams.
jk
victim of mathematics - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll:

I just use a bowline and attach the tail loop to my belay loop with a screw gate. Sometimes I'll use an HMS, then I can use that to attach the clove hitches to when I'm setting up the belay at the top.

Why would you use two screwgates to clip anything anywhere ever?
Jonny2vests - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to knighty:
> (In reply to colin8ll)
>
> Alpine butterfly is what you need. A bit of a faff, but it works really well. No need to use a krab to clip in with.

Eh?
CurlyStevo - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics: because screw gates come undone and one gives you no redundancy.
victim of mathematics - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:

You go climbing, and that's the part of the system you're most worried about?

Wow.
Jonny2vests - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:

You can tie in to the middle with a bowline and not use any screwgates. Make the end loop big enough to step through, then work the slack out.
colin8ll on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:

Incase one gets cross-loaded in a fall. If I remember most screw gates are only rates at 7kN when cross-loaded which doesn't leave a huge margin when leading. Two is safer no?
Jamie B - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll:

> most screw gates are only rates at 7kN when cross-loaded which doesn't leave a huge margin when leading. Two is safer no?

A knot is safer still...

Cheese Monkey - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll: Overhand on bight, thread bight through harness, through overhand knot (not rethread just through). Fishermans to finish then clip spare bight if paranoid
Graeme Hammond - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll:

I'd tie into both ends as normal (this twists the ropes a bit but if the second might be able to untwist the rope before setting off) but does mean if anchors are far back from the edge you can untie to maximise rope length (or even drop one half of the rope back to your partner for) by attaching the end of the rope to the anchor. Then carefully fix yourself to the rope near the clif edge say with a clove hitch.
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Graeme Hammond - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll:

sorry didn't see your comment about possibly having two seconds, in that case personally i usually would tie in with a rethreaded figure of eight but it is bulky and there are other methods.
Keiran.A - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll:
id go for a standard bowline tied with the bight of rope (triple bowline?) with a yosemite finish.

bowlines dont take well to abnormal loading (loading the loop in multiple directions) so best not to build an anchor/belay off your tie in loop. but you could build your anchor off the bight formed by the yosemite.

im not sure how the yosemit bight would take abnormal loading or being pulled in the opposite direction to the standing parts (bringing up the second without redirect).

anyone got any handy tricks for differentiating between the left and right rope. i was considering different coloured electrical tape at the "ends of either strand" and each side of the belay device, this will be reversed if bringing up the second of the anchor in plaquette mode.k

jkarran - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Keiran.A:

> anyone got any handy tricks for differentiating between the left and right rope. i was considering different coloured electrical tape at the "ends of either strand" and each side of the belay device, this will be reversed if bringing up the second of the anchor in plaquette mode.k

Once each is in a runner you have a left and a right established. A quick tug confirms which is which and can be accompanied by shouting 'This/The-other one!' depending whether you tugged the intended rope. It's so easy in practice you'll just do it without thought.

jk
Hardonicus - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll: Pretty sure the Chris Tan Death Knot is the established method? I like to augment mine by tieing it off with a bowline.
Jonny2vests - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Hardonicus:

I want my own knot.

Anyone know if that guy posts on UKC?
GrahamD - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to colin8ll:

Personally I tie into the middle bowline on the bite. I don't like tying into the ends as twists in the rope don't have a chance to work themselves out so you can end up in a cluster f*ck if the pitch is close to running the full rope out.
Jonny2vests - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to GrahamD:

Thats easy graham, you just keep a finger in between them when you flake it.

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