UKC

Hi

I am off to Pembroke in 2 weeks and thinking about targets. I will see how it goes of course, but since Pembroke has a reputation for soft grades I may be tempted to push it a little. I am after well protected (and easily protectable) E2. Currently Deranged and the Honey Monster caught my eye. Are these good as the first foray into the new grade? Are there better ones perhaps? No sandbagging please! Recommendations of good E1's are also welcome.

Kirill

In reply to Kirill:

my first e2 was in pembroke at carreg-y-barcud
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=26119
well protected with small wires easy enough to read with good rests - not very long

probably abit north but its a class crag really nice e1 sinecure awesome hvs ethos some other 3 star e1's beyond the azimouth etc.

I'd check it out - the crag must be good afterall its the only northern pemb crag to make it into the select guide?

In reply to Kirill:

Beast From The Undergrowth. Good route, definitely bottom of the grade, gets you into The Leap.

In reply to Kirill:

Jolly Sensible Arete has/had a well-earned reputation as the easiest E2 in the world, but regrading may have caught up with it.

jcm

In reply to AlanLittle:


Also true.

jcm

In reply to Kirill:

Rockfax Top 50 is usually a good bet (theres a list on here somewhere). Deranged is brilliant, on of my favorite routes in Pembroke but at E2 there's plenty of others to go at. First Blood at St Govans East (one hard section), Chimes of Freedom (awkward) at Mowing Word, Brazen Buttress (lots of stamina)and Deep Space at Mother Careys tend to be the other classic ticks at the grade. Worth hunting out some of the quieter (2 star) routes as well, the likes of War Crimes and Ricochet at St Govans or some of the great E1s (Strait Gate, Rock Idol,Cool for Cats, Manzoku). Have fun and apologies if these are sandbags, I'm sure someone will point them out if so!

In reply to Kirill:

Brazen Buttress at Mother Carey's? Strike Lucky at Rusty Walls gets E2 - it's a nice route but a total soft touch, easier than Lucky Strike I thought. Deranged is good - according to my logbook I didn't think it was pumpy so it must be fairly soft touch! On the other hand, I thought Clean Hand Blues Band was desperately pumpy but YMMV as I used to be spectacularly incompetent at anything even vaguely steep.

In reply to irish paul:

First Blood is not a bad suggestion as it's very safe although the hard section is pretty hard!

Brazen Buttress is another good one - safe but a test of stamina

In reply to cem:

People with fat fingers find First Blood much harder than people with thin ones. It is definitely well protected though.

Personally, I'd be thoroughly unoriginal and go for Deranged, which has a well-protected crux right at the top.

In reply to climbingpixie:

I was going to suggest Lucky Strike, although even by Pembroke standards it's blatantly too easy to be E2 (and I've never met anybody in the flesh who actually thinks it is). It is great though.

In reply to John2:

Awkward, overrated, forgettable St Govan's blandness.

In reply to victim of mathematics:


You've met me!

In reply to Kirill:

I found Keelhaul nice for E2, one of my favourite Pembroke routes. It has a little run-out but is ultimately safe, and the climbing is great.

If rather than the slightly bolder, smaller holds slab/wall thing you'd rather a totally safe strenuous struggle then Charenton Crack is worth a look. Other people seem to think it's hard, but they've probably never done a Peak HVS.

I don't like the St Govs routes much, but of the E2s

- Deranged is a decent route (if rather unmemorable), worth E2
- Ricochet is a path. Anyone who thinks that's what a 5c crak feels like is in for a shock when they actually encounter one. 5c cracks tend not to have jugs and footholds.
- War Crime is a bad line. You'd natually go into the neighbouring E1 for a bit, but the route climbs this harder, slightly loose flake thing instead.
- Depraved is dreadful. Avoid.

Agree that Barcud is a great place to go for the E1 climber, worth the drive.

And the obvious choice is still Beast from the Undergrowth: a must for the aspirant E2 leader being a soft touch and being in the Leap.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Do you really think it's E2? As in, the same grade as Darius?

In reply to Jon Stewart:


not a fair comparison as Darius is at least E6

In reply to GuyVG:

True.

Maybe I should have said Left Wall then...oh no!

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Yes, the difference between bottom end and top end E2 can be, as near as makes no difference, a full grade

Anyway, it's definitely harder than The Executioner (well it's you who started comparing different areas.....)

In reply to Jon Stewart:


The difference between top end E2 and bottom end E3 can be, as near as makes no difference, nothing.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


You're not allowed to agree with me!

In reply to Robert Durran:

And the difference between a lovely route that's easy for E1 and an E2 is significant.

In reply to everybody:

Thanks! Some good suggestions! Keep them coming!

Keehaul is definitely on my list. I seconded Bakers Door couple of years ago and really liked that area. I looked up Ricochet and it looks good. Charenton Crack also made me curious.

I thought about the Beast from the Undegrowth, but was told that the Honey Monster is easier.

In reply to Kirill:

Thing about Honey Monster (which I've not done, but I think it starts up Mythical Monste, which I have) is that the Monster Face is a big, wet scary face. It's great, but Beast is much tamer!

In reply to Kirill:

>I thought about the Beast from the Undegrowth, but was told that the Honey Monster is easier.

I haven't done HM, but it couldn't be much easier than BFTU.

Ricochet - well, Jon S is right it's not as hard as gritstone 5c cracks. It's about the same standard as something like Teck Crack, or perhaps a bit easier. On the other hand, it's very definitely a crack rather than the usual Pembroke fare. I did Charenton Crack a very long time ago and it struck me as rather uphill; on the bright side though it would certainly take remarkable incompetence to get hurt. Rather sunless; you'd want a nice sunny day.

jcm

In reply to Kirill:


Certainly more memorable!

In reply to Robert Durran:


Ah yes, but you think The Executioner is about VDiff, so you're clearly not to be trusted...

Keelhaul is definitely a touch harder than Baker's Door (which is itself given E2 in the new guides), but is still probably a good shout if you want something that isn't pumpy (although I still got a bit pumped, but that's because I have useless arms).

In reply to victim of mathematics:


No. You may be confusing me with Jon Stewart who uses gritstone weirdness specific grades as benchmarks for normal climbing. I think it is E2.

In reply to victim of mathematics:
I thought Keelhaul was quite hard but I think that was because it was one of those slightly damp, soapy days when the rock feels greasy and the friction not to be trusted.

Most of the obvious candidates have been mentioned but I particularly liked Stingray at Barcud. Also on the North Coast you could add Orogeny at Caerfai if you're comfortable with small wires.

On the limestone, First Blood is ace (but I have small fingers), Deranged is pretty straightforward and you get a good rest before the bit at the top (don't rush it), Brazen Buttress isn't hard if you are fit, Chimes of Freedom is exciting (especially if the tide's in - watch the ropes) and quite awkward for a few moves, and Jolly Sensible Arete is, indeed, the easiest E2 in the world, especially if you have the aforementioned small wires.

Nearly forgot, Enter the Goat is pretty reasonable (especially for the E3 it used to be given) and gets you onto Trevallen, which is one of best bits of Pembroke.

In reply to Kirill:

In general, its hard to think of a Pembroke E2 that doesn't feel soft compared to its opposite numbers around the country (First Blood isn't soft though, especially if you get blinkered by the crack).

So which of these are soft even by Pembroke standards? St Govan's has bags of them, lots of one move wonders like Ricochet, Deranged, Still Hungover 2000, then there's Clean Hand Blues Band and War Crime if you don't mind a bit of steep & juggy. At Mother Carey's, Brazen is soft, Deep Space if dry isn't hard and still perfectly doable if wet (normal) and Herod I think was ok. The Leap has Shape Up (downgraded?) & Beast, both v soft. Bon Voyage at Misty Walls is brilliant, not hard.

I was staggered to find that Lucky Strike now gets E2, because its pretty straightforward for E1, and I'd assumed it was only that grade because of its committing nature. That has to be the winner. Utterly brilliant route too.

In reply to Robert Durran:

But aren't you benchmarking against Scottish grading, that is generally thought to be pretty soft?

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Did you have a bad time when you encountered the 5c crack on Depraved then? Its not a softie but has very good moves throughout, at least 2 stars.

In reply to Kirill:

I'd suggest Keelhaul, from my limited experience of pembroke E2s.

Without spoiling, I suspect it just gets E2 for the second bit. Which makes it super safe as there's gear, plenty of it where it really matters.

I thought pigs on the wing was harder/more serious, though damp when I climbed. (HVS).
I also thought Strait gate (E1) was more sustained.
(I realise both of these are well protected and therefore the grade for a reason)

Which if I thought an HVS was harder and an E1 more sustained, then it must be OK. Lucky strike/strike lucky - one's soft for E1, the other just E1 imo.

In reply to Ed morris:


I had quite a hard time on the 5c crack, but that was the good bit. The horrible dusty blocks above which I had microwires stacked in were a real low-light of a generally poor, escapable route.

In reply to Kirill:

The routes that sprung to my mind when I read the title of your thread were:

Beast From the Undergrowth - mainly well protected easy climbing with one reachy move that you won't hurt yourself on. Plus its on (in?) the best crag on Earth.

First Blood - One hard move that is very well protected and good protection all the way. No sketchy grass top-out like Beast either.

I'm not sure on your strengths/weaknesses but be wary of Keelhaul as it has some loose flakes by the overlap that I have seen pulled off and have heard of other stories of flakes being pulled off there.

Also be wary of Chimes of Freedom - it is excellent but it has a big feel to it and I'm not sure I'd recommend it as a first E2.

Have a great time in Pembroke!

Dunc

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

No. I always think of N. Wales as benchmark. So most of Scotland pretty much spot on (though some stuff in the NW may be soft). Pembroke probably a bit soft. Lakes generally stiff. Gritstone too weird and specific to categorise, but certainly very stiff for the visiting climber.

To the OP: Pembroke is really all about the E3's anyway (unless you climb E5......)

In reply to AlanLittle:

agree, beast is a good route, not that hard and in an awesome place.

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Depraved (or was it Deranged?) has some good moves and a great little finish but lacks line.

Tim did say you don't like St Govan's!

In reply to Jonny2vests:

Ah yes Deep Space and Brazen Buttress are really good. Deep Space has great atmosphere, especially if you do the convoluted ab in at high-ish tide, as opposed to the straightforward ab into the bottom of Threadneedle Street followed by a walk through the arch (that requires low-ish tide).

In reply to Kirill:

Deep Space - unforgettable! http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24995

In reply to Misha:


It is Stoney by the sea. So not all bad, but certainly not good.

In reply to Kirill:
Stoney is good. One of those crags where there are no soft touches - I like that. Polished in places but only on some routes and with modern shoes it doesn't matter as much. Loads of great routes.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Belly laugh.

There are some bloody brilliant routes at St Govan's, I think you should go back and look harder.

In reply to Kirill:
Ricochet has a short section of very well protected hard climbing after the first long cra k which is around hvs or easy e1. You can move up and down from a reasonsable resting ledge placing good gear until you decide to go for the hard moves.
Incest is best is another easyish e2 not mentioned so far. A quite hard bouldery start followed by a steep well protected but increasingly pumpy crack.

In reply to Jonny2vests:



Just like Stoney in fact!

In reply to Kevster:

That's good to know (re: Keehaul), cause I have done both Pigs on the Wing and the Strait Gate, and I have seconded Lucky Strike.

In reply to everyone:

Thanks again for all the suggestions! Certainly a lot for me to go at. Can't wait now!

Kirill

In reply to Jon Stewart:



I seconded this a few weeks ago. It was gopping wet, but I suspect it would feel fairly hard work even in the dry, certainly for your average Peak HVS leader.

Generally tho, this is a boring thread. Pembroke has miles of crags and the vast majority of routes we are collectively suggesting are on the most popular crag nearest the car park, plus one in the Leap and a couple at Mother Carey's. Are there any good E2s worth seeking out on some of the quieter cliffs?

In reply to Jonny2vests:


Yes, but there is far more overrated stuff than elsewhere in Pembroke on rock which is aesthetically disappointing and suspect by Pembroke standards and sometimes hideously polished.

In reply to seankenny:


I think the reason some of the quieter cliffs are quieter is that they're more serious and adventurous. Daydreams is quite soft for E2 but it's multipitch and tidal - not a great choice. And worse would be the brilliant Silver Shadow. It's hard, it's the easiest route out and if you can't do it or you take too long the tide comes in and you're essentially f^cked.

In reply to Jonny2vests:


Are you saying that if I do the unstarred routes, they'll be brilliant? I've done pretty much all the classics E1-3. The best ones are good routes, but soulless compared to everything else on the coast, sometimes chossy, and often appallingly polished. The fact that massive sections of the cliff keep falling into the sea is not a great USP.

In reply to seankenny:



Well I've been raving about Planet Waves on Space Buttress on several threads now, but I wouldn't actually recommend it as a first E2 as it's fairly run-out (though not quite as bold as feels like it's going to be, if you know what I mean). If the OP is competent at jamming (and preferably can double up on medium-large cams), then The Rip on Lystep Point is excellent, unusual for Pembroke and as remote as you like - you can be pretty sure that no-one can hear you scream! (Which may of course not be an advantage as a first E2...). Street Legal on the back side of Mowing Word is another one for crack climbers.

Of the ones so far mentioned, I actually think Chimes of Freedom is not a bad suggestion - never that desperate, well protected where it counts and it does have rests, albeit it's a long way. It also has the advantage of being an utterly brilliant route, which always helps with inspiration. Stingray on Carreg-y-Barcud is a very good and realistic first E2 suggestion. Not so sure about First Blood - apart from the crux being very hard (well I fell off anyway!) my main memory is of kicking out my only wire as I pulled up from the overhanging start onto the wall above, but that could just have been gross incompetence.

Of course the best E2 in Pembroke is Preposterous Tales, but possibly not the best first E2...

Rick

In reply to Kirill:

I can highly recommend Lucky strike as a great all round experience. Finding it, abbing in, and getting on with it. We did it with a big sea, it was great and will never forget that day. Although in my opinion it is E1, but that's not important, just a number!
Also another vote for Chimes of freedom, another great experience, the whole package. I think this one deserves E2 though, but not a hard one.
Do Lucky strike one day and Chimes the next and you will be setting yourself up for a very memorable trip.
Let us know how you get on. Good luck, and keep well clear of First blood unless you want a challenge.

In reply to Rick Sewards:


I'll check it out next time I'm down there. Any other non-Rockfax gems E1-4 you'd recommend? Have heard of Pan and some adventurous E3 in Chance Encounter Zawn.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Has this thread been done? It probably has. Still, I wouldn't mind reading some suggestions. (That are not obvious like Test Case or Pleasure Dome, etc).

In reply to Robert Durran:


Agreed. As long as we can agree that there are some excellent routes there.

In reply to seankenny:

Best one ever is Gravy Train. Doesn't see much traffic, but is amazing. Ghost Ship is excellent (quite a good starting point), as are the MCK routes (although Zeppelin has a very hard crux). Swordfish is extremely good. Pleasure Dome, obviously, and not high in the grade if you're fit - no really hard moves. Space Cadet for an unadventurous jugfest on slippy rock, if that's your bag.

In reply to mountain.martin:

Inscest is best, so easyish for E2 its given E1!

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Hmmm, can't help you much at the upper end of your grade range. From the Edge of the Deep Green Sea at Rusty Walls (but well right of the LS area) is good - similar to LS in some ways (but going R to L), though more run out (and a less obvious line). Given E2 5c in the new guide - might be E2, but the way I went had nothing close to 5c. The Good Soldier is just right of Street Legal on the East Face of Mowing Word, and like it is fairly jammy - upgraded to E3 in the latest guide, not sure why but I'll take it, I've not got many.

When the bird ban is off Puritan (E2) at Stackpole Head is pretty mega (I think it, and Planet Waves, are actually both in the current Rockfax, but neither seems to get done much). That one (from memory) is proper E2, and then some.

Rick

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I said nothing of the sort! How did you get to that from 'there are some amazing routes'?


That's a big statement. So the Arrow, War Crime, Butcher, Space Cadet, Test Case were only good? Tangerine Dream, Get Some In, John Wayne are also up there with the best of Pembroke.

In reply to Jonny2vests:


You told me to 'look harder'. So I should do the same ones again, but think they're amazing second time round then?


Yes. The really great Pembroke routes are much more exciting: they have incredibly settings, going through caves, or along exciting traverses, or find sneaky ways out of impressive zawns with the sea crashing underneath: they're not just like some big quarry face that may as well have been bolted to make a bunch of decent 6s. But I suppose that would be a waste of money since it's all falling into the sea.

In reply to seankenny:

>Are there any good E2s worth seeking out on some of the quieter cliffs?

Well said, sir. Well, on that theme, Surprise Attack is fairly easy - in fact extremely easy - for E2.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Apart from the crux, which is harder than the majority of Pembroke E2 cruxes (cruces?).

In reply to seankenny:
Are there any good E2s worth seeking out on some of the quieter cliffs?


The new CC guides have opened up a lot which I wasn't aware of before our trip down last year.

I thought Dolphin Pod at Stackpole was very good and pretty easy for E2, its not as serious as the routes further right as you ab into a non tidal stance.

Culmination in Bullslaughter Bay is also pretty soft and can be done straight off the beach at low tide, so not serious either.

Best E1 we did last year was The Gong in the Cauldron, commiting abseil into a dark and foreboding zawn, followed by the best steep juggy romp Pembroke has to offer, brilliant.

In reply to Dave Ferguson:

They sound awesome. Any others you'd recommend at E3?

In reply to Dave Ferguson:

Culmination eh? I'd no idea anyone did it... yours is probably the only ascent since ours! We called it Culmination as it reminded me of the Culm.

In reply to Kirill:
+ 1 for First Blood
+ 1 for Brazen Buttress.
Also Chimes of Freedom at Mowing Word(though maybe do a few others first, it's a little intimidating (though well protected))
Also "Be Clever" at Barcud is a very good e1 if very hard e1. It has a runout crux and a really hard, well protected final move (almost 6a). Once you do this you're ready for quite a few E2s

Enjoy!

In reply to John2:

If you say so. It seemed about N.Wales HVS to be me, to be honest.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I do say so. The crux is hard 5c, and the whole crag is pretty unescapable if not at low tide.

For a first E2, something like Enter the Goat at Trevallen is a better bet.

In reply to Dave Ferguson:

Good list, thanks!

In reply to James Oswald:


I'm sorry, but First Blood is a farcical suggestion for a soft first Pembroke E2.

In reply to Jonny2vests:

Butcher an overrated micro-route.
Space Cadet polished, awkward and dangerous (someone will eventually die on it)
Test Case and Arrow polished beyond enjoyment.

Get Some In, Tangerine and John Wayne (to lesser extent) are very good still.

In reply to John2:


For the grade tick maybe, but not the quality.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Wavelength at Bosherston is one of the best E3's I've done. In many ways as good as Pleasure Dome but totally different style. Committing abseil (put a nut in half way down), real atmosphere, loads of charcter, really exciting climbing and no push over at the grade. Probably only a bit overlooked because you can't see it from anywhere.

In reply to Kirill:
Orogeny at Caerfi is a pleasant and easy Pembroke E2. Uncertain Smile on the same crag is very good but considerably harder.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Quality? What's that? I thought this thread was about shameless grade chasing.

In reply to remus:


Depends how you interpret the word "good" in the thread title!

In reply to jon:

yep, I thought it was pretty good and solid for that bit of crag, really enjoyed the HVS further right as well Whacko Jacko I think its called, it was a really hot day so a swim in the sea between routes was a really nice distraction.

In reply to Ed morris:

Ah you spotted my error, I meant vice is nice, us old fellas get a bit confused sometimes.

In reply to Jonny2vests:


He probably only posted that because I fell off it and he didn't.

In reply to Robert Durran:

The Butcher in a great setting would be brilliant, although the good bit is short-lived. If you had some cool scrambly adventure to get to it, and then it reared out over the crashing waves, maybe with a traverse to get out onto the arete, then it would be a genuine classic and very memorable. As it is, with 30 people abseiling down a couple of meters to your right, someone having a nightmare on the VS to the left giving rise to a domestic with their husband, 3 parties queuing for Army Dreamers having a picnic and your belayer engaged in conversation with the 3 parties queuing for this route (with maybe someone on Vice Is Nice too just to liven up the atmosphere) - it's really not that amazing.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Perhaps.


Dangerous bold, or dangerous loose?


No they're not.

In reply to Kirill:

If your partner is at a similar level, have a day at mewsford, to do surprise attack and daydreams. The latter is 3 pitch e1.5, scheme to do p2

Beast, deranged, first blood, enter the goat, strike lucky/lucky strike strait gate all recommended

Not sure about the keelhaul suggestions, sustained and intense I though, no Pembroke soft touch that one I thought

In reply to Robert Durran:

Space Cadet - Same question as j2vests - why is it so dangerous?

In reply to robw007:

I seem to remember space cadet taking more gear than a c list celebratory.

Not small gear either. Huge chunks of gear backed up with more huge chunks.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Have to disagree about the Arrow - unless it has suddenly got a lot more polished in the last few years.

Mind you I am used to Stoney and my wife has climbed at Avon so in comparison to them it is as rough as grit

In reply to Kirill:

What about Ace Ventura E2 5a, 5c - crazy situation, with gear but not one for high tides

In reply to robw007:

The vibrating hanging blocks that you have to put the gear in and then swing around on. I seriously considered backing off and I certainly wouldn't do it again. One day I suspect someone's going to end up back on the ground with a pile of rock on top of them. The harder climbing above is admittedly very well protected.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I don't recall those. You mean on the juggy band? Or the first 20 feet to the ledge? It's no worse than other routes in Pembroke for looseness, there are plenty of popular routes which are less solid that Space Cadet.

In reply to drysori:

Where you swing up and right off the ledge at about twenty feet on hanging, vibrating, "glued together", blocks.


Yes, but the gear is also in the dangerous blocks. Yes, there are other popular routes with bits of looseness, but I cannot think of any other where it is unavoidable, has to be fully weighted and potentially fatal if it goes. Usually just a cautious runner and bit of care needed on the finishes to some routes.

In reply to Robert Durran:


I'm normally the first to accuse St Govs of falling down, but I thought Space Cadet was solid. War Crime's a bit of a chosspile though.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Oh well, maybe I'm paranoid, but I won't be doing it again. I hope nobody comes to grief.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Strange Rob, you usually rate near death experiences highly.

In reply to jon:


Only in retrospect.
Or maybe I'm just getting old and soft.

In reply to Robert Durran:

We could put some big squashy pads down if you're nervous?

That was my attempt at humour.