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For me climbing is a 50% headgame (or more).
Some days I am super keen to push my grade, somedays I still get that inner dread of falling and dying (haha). It's an irrational fear I know.
At the minute I am working on a (indoor) 7a. It's something that given the right head circumstances I could have onsited. A few days ago in portland I had the same experience on a 5+!
The crux for me is clipping, almost always. Am I going to hit that ledge etc.
Some times I wish I took a sip of ale before a climb just to 'man the feck up'.
Cheers,
Rob
Some days I am super keen to push my grade, somedays I still get that inner dread of falling and dying (haha). It's an irrational fear I know.
At the minute I am working on a (indoor) 7a. It's something that given the right head circumstances I could have onsited. A few days ago in portland I had the same experience on a 5+!
The crux for me is clipping, almost always. Am I going to hit that ledge etc.
Some times I wish I took a sip of ale before a climb just to 'man the feck up'.
Cheers,
Rob
In reply to Oogachooga:
I have the same problem outdoors. It doesn't really bother me too much as I'm more into climbing easy mountain lines than I am into pushing my grade, but whenever I climb sport I always go from 'this is lovely, what a nice route' to 'OMG the next bolt is 3 metres away and I could fall onto this ledge!!' within the space of a couple moves. It's not helped by the fact that my sport grade is so low, there are always ledges!
> The crux for me is clipping, almost always. Am I going to hit that ledge etc.
I have the same problem outdoors. It doesn't really bother me too much as I'm more into climbing easy mountain lines than I am into pushing my grade, but whenever I climb sport I always go from 'this is lovely, what a nice route' to 'OMG the next bolt is 3 metres away and I could fall onto this ledge!!' within the space of a couple moves. It's not helped by the fact that my sport grade is so low, there are always ledges!
In reply to Oogachooga:
i find 'easier' sports routes far worse for this as they tend to be slabby and full of big ledges. steeper stuff often doesn't have this problem, giving nice clean falls.
i find 'easier' sports routes far worse for this as they tend to be slabby and full of big ledges. steeper stuff often doesn't have this problem, giving nice clean falls.
In reply to Oogachooga:
Definately a head game I'm struggling at the moment beacause I keep thinking I cant do stuff or that is way too hard for the grade...
Definately a head game I'm struggling at the moment beacause I keep thinking I cant do stuff or that is way too hard for the grade...
In reply to Oogachooga:
Are you always making long reaches to clip above your head? If so try climbing right up to the bolt and clipping it at your waist (assuming the rock allows).
Are you always making long reaches to clip above your head? If so try climbing right up to the bolt and clipping it at your waist (assuming the rock allows).
In reply to Oogachooga:
More like 75%, maybe even more.
> For me climbing is a 50% headgame (or more).
More like 75%, maybe even more.
2
In reply to Oogachooga:
practise falling off stuff. I make a regular habit of falling indoors and I've yet to fall outdoors, tho i guess that's cause I mostly do trad outdoors. Fall practise is invaluable, can't recommend it enough
practise falling off stuff. I make a regular habit of falling indoors and I've yet to fall outdoors, tho i guess that's cause I mostly do trad outdoors. Fall practise is invaluable, can't recommend it enough
In reply to Oogachooga:
So don't clip.
More to the point do clip but keep climbing until clipping is a simple action that improves your situation rather than a stressful operation, stopping, hauling heavy rope above your head above your head with all the leverage, wasted energy and risk that entails. Two more moves and you'd be clipping by your thighs, probably much safer and shaking out while you're doing it.
Climbing is in large part mental but if clipping is the crux you're doing it wrong.
jk
> The crux for me is clipping, almost always. Am I going to hit that ledge etc.
So don't clip.
More to the point do clip but keep climbing until clipping is a simple action that improves your situation rather than a stressful operation, stopping, hauling heavy rope above your head above your head with all the leverage, wasted energy and risk that entails. Two more moves and you'd be clipping by your thighs, probably much safer and shaking out while you're doing it.
Climbing is in large part mental but if clipping is the crux you're doing it wrong.
jk
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In reply to jsmcfarland:
Surely you're still to see the benefits of this tactic then?
> practise falling off stuff. I make a regular habit of falling indoors and I've yet to fall outdoors
Surely you're still to see the benefits of this tactic then?
In reply to Rigid Raider:
Very few. Climbing is the drug!
> How many top climbers use drugs, I wonder?
Very few. Climbing is the drug!
2
In reply to pasbury:
I try to clip at the best hold. Whether this is waist height or head height.
It's got to the point where a clip will either be quite strenuous (off crap hold in any situation) and at a point where it appears to me to be risky in the way of ledges/bulges etc if I mess up the clip and fall.
Fall practice is now incorporated into every session at the wall. Maybe a 'go to clip and slip' fall practice would help now and take even bigger falls?
I try to clip at the best hold. Whether this is waist height or head height.
It's got to the point where a clip will either be quite strenuous (off crap hold in any situation) and at a point where it appears to me to be risky in the way of ledges/bulges etc if I mess up the clip and fall.
Fall practice is now incorporated into every session at the wall. Maybe a 'go to clip and slip' fall practice would help now and take even bigger falls?
In reply to jkarran:
To be honest I have been contemplating using that method but just skip the clip altogether.
It's got to be a mixture of irrational fear/overthinking and sometimes sketchy bolting.
I've noticed a lot of low grade sport routes at cheddar gorge and portland could be bolted better to protect a fall. If you're going to bolt it you might as well make it as safe as possible.
To be honest I have been contemplating using that method but just skip the clip altogether.
It's got to be a mixture of irrational fear/overthinking and sometimes sketchy bolting.
I've noticed a lot of low grade sport routes at cheddar gorge and portland could be bolted better to protect a fall. If you're going to bolt it you might as well make it as safe as possible.
In reply to Oogachooga:
I find that tends to be best, there are plenty of bolts that are placed above the only good clipping jug, so obviously if you're hanging off that jug and clipping, above head height seems to be the way.
> I try to clip at the best hold. Whether this is waist height or head height.
I find that tends to be best, there are plenty of bolts that are placed above the only good clipping jug, so obviously if you're hanging off that jug and clipping, above head height seems to be the way.
In reply to Oogachooga:
Try this.
It works.
VIDEO: A Fear of Falling - Clip-Drop Technique
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1838
Try this.
It works.
VIDEO: A Fear of Falling - Clip-Drop Technique
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1838
In reply to Michael Gordon:
well indoors I never 'not go' for dynamic moves or sketchy moves above clips etc. When I say I've yet to fall outdoors I don't mean because I've backed off stuff, I either physically haven't been able to do a move and slumped on gear or I've done the route
well indoors I never 'not go' for dynamic moves or sketchy moves above clips etc. When I say I've yet to fall outdoors I don't mean because I've backed off stuff, I either physically haven't been able to do a move and slumped on gear or I've done the route
In reply to Oogachooga:
Much more than 50% headgame- up to the very high grades. If you can see a move you could do it, like you see monkeys and squirrels doing. But you don't because you're constantly battling within yourself- death or glory? Humans are capable of far more than we're doing at the moment but our over- thinking of everything we can do physically slows us down.
It's inspiring to see what the really talented can do. I started out in the eighties doing bmx and then skateboarding. If I looked at what people can now do on bikes and boards back then I would have never have believed it. Danny MacAskill linked a BMX video on his FB page today that blew me away.
Much more than 50% headgame- up to the very high grades. If you can see a move you could do it, like you see monkeys and squirrels doing. But you don't because you're constantly battling within yourself- death or glory? Humans are capable of far more than we're doing at the moment but our over- thinking of everything we can do physically slows us down.
It's inspiring to see what the really talented can do. I started out in the eighties doing bmx and then skateboarding. If I looked at what people can now do on bikes and boards back then I would have never have believed it. Danny MacAskill linked a BMX video on his FB page today that blew me away.
1
In reply to Wee Davie:
If that's the case why are all people not onsighting 8a? or even 7a?
Do not understand this thread. yes head game comes into play, but if you can't do the moves, its not fear of falling holding you back
I can see the moves on Careless Torque, can't pull the holds though....
If that's the case why are all people not onsighting 8a? or even 7a?
Do not understand this thread. yes head game comes into play, but if you can't do the moves, its not fear of falling holding you back
I can see the moves on Careless Torque, can't pull the holds though....
Post edited at 10:49
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In reply to ashtond6:
I'll spell it out for you.
You can SEE the moves but you are SCARED to do them.
That's what I meant. Not just looking with your eyes.
ok?
If you have no inhibitions except what your physical strength is, congratulations. That is not the world I live in.
I'll spell it out for you.
You can SEE the moves but you are SCARED to do them.
That's what I meant. Not just looking with your eyes.
ok?
If you have no inhibitions except what your physical strength is, congratulations. That is not the world I live in.
Post edited at 22:57
In reply to Oogachooga:
I take it you're talking bolt clipping sports routes here?
If you're @ 50% on them, you're going to be knackered on Trad then!
I take it you're talking bolt clipping sports routes here?
If you're @ 50% on them, you're going to be knackered on Trad then!
In reply to ashtond6:
Eh? You climb at Dumbarton and don't get the headgame thing? So do you just jump on all the problems because you know you can do them from seeing the moves...?
Eh? You climb at Dumbarton and don't get the headgame thing? So do you just jump on all the problems because you know you can do them from seeing the moves...?
In reply to ashtond6:
There are routes on those boulders that might be easier than 5c UK grades but I'd hesitate to just batter on due to the 25 ft fall that might occur. That's what I mean.
There are routes on those boulders that might be easier than 5c UK grades but I'd hesitate to just batter on due to the 25 ft fall that might occur. That's what I mean.
In reply to Wee Davie:
the op uses sport climbs as examples, not solos... hence me not understanding
Could I climb 7a - yes, could I climb 8a - no. no amount of sorting the head game out is gonna change that
the op uses sport climbs as examples, not solos... hence me not understanding
Could I climb 7a - yes, could I climb 8a - no. no amount of sorting the head game out is gonna change that
In reply to ashtond6:
It's interesting this thread (well, to me anyway!)
I think improving in climbing, wither from 6a, 7a or 8a and beyond is 100% driven by one's mental approach; before (during training), preparing for the lead and finally executing the lead...
It seems that if you can break down the bigger objectives into smaller more understandable and experiential tactics that lead you towards your climbing goal, then your bound to improve your climbing performance. If you can boulder V4/5 then you can eventually climb 8a sport... If you let yourself
> the op uses sport climbs as examples, not solos... hence me not understanding
> Could I climb 7a - yes, could I climb 8a - no. no amount of sorting the head game out is gonna change that
It's interesting this thread (well, to me anyway!)
I think improving in climbing, wither from 6a, 7a or 8a and beyond is 100% driven by one's mental approach; before (during training), preparing for the lead and finally executing the lead...
It seems that if you can break down the bigger objectives into smaller more understandable and experiential tactics that lead you towards your climbing goal, then your bound to improve your climbing performance. If you can boulder V4/5 then you can eventually climb 8a sport... If you let yourself
1
In reply to mark mcgowan01:
Totally agree, this is my problem at the minute. I feel I can climb a lot harder on sport routes but find it hard to get into the zone and commit every session. Like I said, for me at the minute clipping seems to be the crux and my weak (or back off) point. I'm always overthinking the safety aspect (even on sport routes), sometimes this is rational, sometimes irrational.
I need some ideas similar to the 'clip drop' method to use but which relvolve more around 'blowing the clip'.
Totally agree, this is my problem at the minute. I feel I can climb a lot harder on sport routes but find it hard to get into the zone and commit every session. Like I said, for me at the minute clipping seems to be the crux and my weak (or back off) point. I'm always overthinking the safety aspect (even on sport routes), sometimes this is rational, sometimes irrational.
I need some ideas similar to the 'clip drop' method to use but which relvolve more around 'blowing the clip'.
In reply to Oogachooga:
Be specific in your training - people do it all the time on red pointing.
If falling off with a handful of rope out is what you're worried about, that's what you need to practice (obviously providing it's safe - ie not at the 2nd clip!). You can go further - if there's a specific clip that concerns you, practice at that clip.
You can build up to it like any fall practice (top of the route slump, fall at the last clip, slightly above the last clip etc).
But I think specific is what you need to do.
> I need some ideas similar to the 'clip drop' method to use but which relvolve more around 'blowing the clip'.
Be specific in your training - people do it all the time on red pointing.
If falling off with a handful of rope out is what you're worried about, that's what you need to practice (obviously providing it's safe - ie not at the 2nd clip!). You can go further - if there's a specific clip that concerns you, practice at that clip.
You can build up to it like any fall practice (top of the route slump, fall at the last clip, slightly above the last clip etc).
But I think specific is what you need to do.
2
1
In reply to mark mcgowan01:
Some people plateau because of fear. Some plateau because they aren't strong enough/flexible/whatever to hold the holds.
Saying 50% of the reason you can't do a route is because you're scared is madness.
Unless you're scared. Which is fine. Crippling fear is allowed. What isn't is saying you're strong enough to climb the route when you aren't.
But then I say, 50% of mind games is from reading forums and gaining most normally totally unrelated negative opinions rather than just doing what you want.
Some people plateau because of fear. Some plateau because they aren't strong enough/flexible/whatever to hold the holds.
Saying 50% of the reason you can't do a route is because you're scared is madness.
Unless you're scared. Which is fine. Crippling fear is allowed. What isn't is saying you're strong enough to climb the route when you aren't.
But then I say, 50% of mind games is from reading forums and gaining most normally totally unrelated negative opinions rather than just doing what you want.
In reply to mark mcgowan01:
I read a book on training and they broke climbing down as a third physical, a third technical,the final third mental attitude. If you start out thinking you can not do it then you woun't.
I read a book on training and they broke climbing down as a third physical, a third technical,the final third mental attitude. If you start out thinking you can not do it then you woun't.
2
In reply to Oogachooga:
no one mentioned rock warriors way yet? Good book on mental training for climbing. I'm not down with all of it - i *do* climb for the ego reward of success, unlike a rock warrior, and I don't particularly want to change that. But it's great for breaking down many of the mental processes we go through and pointing out traps we can fall into.
no one mentioned rock warriors way yet? Good book on mental training for climbing. I'm not down with all of it - i *do* climb for the ego reward of success, unlike a rock warrior, and I don't particularly want to change that. But it's great for breaking down many of the mental processes we go through and pointing out traps we can fall into.
1
In reply to Oogachooga:
There are some routes, particularly at Portland, where falling is not an option however much clip-drop practice you might have, nor whether you climb higher to clip or just clip above your head.
Hitting the big ledge below the clip will be painful however you look at it.
I personally don't think they are worth the risk, and move on to something which is better bolted or avoids ledges.
There are some routes, particularly at Portland, where falling is not an option however much clip-drop practice you might have, nor whether you climb higher to clip or just clip above your head.
Hitting the big ledge below the clip will be painful however you look at it.
I personally don't think they are worth the risk, and move on to something which is better bolted or avoids ledges.
In reply to Oogachooga:
It's a very rational fear if you're not on top-rope. The question is how much can you suppress that.
Personally I'm a big wuss.
Neil
It's a very rational fear if you're not on top-rope. The question is how much can you suppress that.
Personally I'm a big wuss.
Neil
In reply to dereke12000:
There's a skill to recognising the the game is up, the moment you should cut your losses and jump in control before you fall like a sack of spuds. Doesn't guarantee you'll miss everything but it helps.
That's not to say holds don't break and unexpected slips don't occur, I'm sure we've all had our fair share of those but they're just one of the risks we accept (or don't).
jk
> There are some routes, particularly at Portland, where falling is not an option however much clip-drop practice you might have, nor whether you climb higher to clip or just clip above your head.
> Hitting the big ledge below the clip will be painful however you look at it.
> Hitting the big ledge below the clip will be painful however you look at it.
There's a skill to recognising the the game is up, the moment you should cut your losses and jump in control before you fall like a sack of spuds. Doesn't guarantee you'll miss everything but it helps.
That's not to say holds don't break and unexpected slips don't occur, I'm sure we've all had our fair share of those but they're just one of the risks we accept (or don't).
jk
Post edited at 10:22
In reply to Oogachooga:
Don't agonise about it too much. Fear of falling is in built and definitely a massive distraction.
What helped me was practically giving up top roping altogether. Be it at the wall, or on sport routes or trad, I make sure I lead all the time, the only exception I being if I am projecting something that I find hard and the gear is such that falling off is not a option, in that I will hurt myself, otherwise if I think the fall looks ok / safe by my judgement, I will give it a go on lead.
Think about the first time you drove a car. You were probably bricking it that you were going to crash, now the thought probably does not even cross your mind.
Reps are your friend, 1000 safe falls will probably give you a different perspective towards falling.
Just keep working at it )
Don't agonise about it too much. Fear of falling is in built and definitely a massive distraction.
What helped me was practically giving up top roping altogether. Be it at the wall, or on sport routes or trad, I make sure I lead all the time, the only exception I being if I am projecting something that I find hard and the gear is such that falling off is not a option, in that I will hurt myself, otherwise if I think the fall looks ok / safe by my judgement, I will give it a go on lead.
Think about the first time you drove a car. You were probably bricking it that you were going to crash, now the thought probably does not even cross your mind.
Reps are your friend, 1000 safe falls will probably give you a different perspective towards falling.
Just keep working at it )
1
In reply to jkarran:
>>There are some routes, particularly at Portland, where falling is not an option however much clip-drop practice you might have, nor whether you climb higher to clip or just clip above your head.
Hitting the big ledge below the clip will be painful however you look at it.
Yes, but there's also a skill to recognising when a route is badly bolted and not worth bothering with. Sport routes should be safe. (Trad routes are obviously a different matter entirely)
>>There are some routes, particularly at Portland, where falling is not an option however much clip-drop practice you might have, nor whether you climb higher to clip or just clip above your head.
Hitting the big ledge below the clip will be painful however you look at it.
> There's a skill to recognising the the game is up, the moment you should cut your losses and jump in control before you fall like a sack of spuds. Doesn't guarantee you'll miss everything but it helps.
Yes, but there's also a skill to recognising when a route is badly bolted and not worth bothering with. Sport routes should be safe. (Trad routes are obviously a different matter entirely)
In reply to Oogachooga:
Hi Rob. I go to the wall and lead everything, even easy warm ups. The aim on easier routes is to "feel" good, I.e clip efficiently. How long does it take you to actually get the rope in?? Be slick, feel stylish and you'll be efficient. So when it gets desperate, you have confidence. We need to get out (my winter hibernations almost up!). Chris
Hi Rob. I go to the wall and lead everything, even easy warm ups. The aim on easier routes is to "feel" good, I.e clip efficiently. How long does it take you to actually get the rope in?? Be slick, feel stylish and you'll be efficient. So when it gets desperate, you have confidence. We need to get out (my winter hibernations almost up!). Chris
In reply to jkarran:
I take your point about a controlled fall where possible. One recent example though was 'Thin on Top' at Portland http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=235896 where to make the move above a ledge I needed to get my feet high in a sort of layback. My hands came off first (unexpectedly), and I fell only missing the ledge by inches as my belayer was paying attention but mainly as I fell in a horizontal position (a bit like Mission Impossible).
This made me rethink my attitude to risk taking on sport climbs.
> There's a skill to recognising the the game is up, the moment you should cut your losses and jump in control before you fall like a sack of spuds. Doesn't guarantee you'll miss everything but it helps.
> jk
> jk
I take your point about a controlled fall where possible. One recent example though was 'Thin on Top' at Portland http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=235896 where to make the move above a ledge I needed to get my feet high in a sort of layback. My hands came off first (unexpectedly), and I fell only missing the ledge by inches as my belayer was paying attention but mainly as I fell in a horizontal position (a bit like Mission Impossible).
This made me rethink my attitude to risk taking on sport climbs.
In reply to dereke12000:
Hi Derek,
The bolt (just about) did its job then, along with your belayer. At least you didn't actually hit the ledge with your arse
Glad you're OK.
The last moves at that venue all have that ledge just before the top and we tried to protect against a ledge fall on each route as much as possible.
'Thin on Top' was probably undergraded by me at the time, as the last move is hard (harder if you're not 6'3" like me) but the rest of the route is relatively easy.
There is an indoor wall in Weymouth Sea Cadet Centre which is open on Thursday nights if you fancy coming along. Otherwise I hope to meet you out on the rock soon.
Adam
Hi Derek,
The bolt (just about) did its job then, along with your belayer. At least you didn't actually hit the ledge with your arse
Glad you're OK.
The last moves at that venue all have that ledge just before the top and we tried to protect against a ledge fall on each route as much as possible.
'Thin on Top' was probably undergraded by me at the time, as the last move is hard (harder if you're not 6'3" like me) but the rest of the route is relatively easy.
There is an indoor wall in Weymouth Sea Cadet Centre which is open on Thursday nights if you fancy coming along. Otherwise I hope to meet you out on the rock soon.
Adam
Post edited at 13:23
In reply to Adam Perrett:
Hi Adam,
thanks for the info. I remember at the time we were joking about the probable height of the route setter
I imagine it's hard sometimes to bolt a route, especially with that darn great ledge!!
Thanks anyway for setting some great routes at the Veranda and elsewhere.
Derek
PS I don't live that near Weymouth, but we do try and fit in trips to Portland early on Sunday mornings
Hi Adam,
thanks for the info. I remember at the time we were joking about the probable height of the route setter
I imagine it's hard sometimes to bolt a route, especially with that darn great ledge!!
Thanks anyway for setting some great routes at the Veranda and elsewhere.
Derek
PS I don't live that near Weymouth, but we do try and fit in trips to Portland early on Sunday mornings
In reply to dereke12000:
I'm sure we will cross paths eventually.
I'll keep you informed of any new routes we put up.
Adam
I'm sure we will cross paths eventually.
I'll keep you informed of any new routes we put up.
Adam
In reply to cwarby:
Hey Chris! Strangely enough I was going to give you a shout the other day but it was a bit short notice. Stylish, slick, efficient, I like it. Practiced 'ninja clipping' last session haha! I think that's the key.
It's funny because I often find myself most relaxed mentally on hard climbs. It's the easier ones that let my mind wander.
Hey Chris! Strangely enough I was going to give you a shout the other day but it was a bit short notice. Stylish, slick, efficient, I like it. Practiced 'ninja clipping' last session haha! I think that's the key.
It's funny because I often find myself most relaxed mentally on hard climbs. It's the easier ones that let my mind wander.
In reply to Oogachooga:
Not got any weekdays just yet, but will keep in touch. My biggest problem is I don't do cold well!
The other thing I do indoors is if I've just done a hard route and I'm really pumped, then go immediately onto a route at a grade you know you can do (or have done) and try it with a pump on. This forces you to do everything efficiently, straight arm and all that. Lots of good advice above, have fun.
Chris
Not got any weekdays just yet, but will keep in touch. My biggest problem is I don't do cold well!
The other thing I do indoors is if I've just done a hard route and I'm really pumped, then go immediately onto a route at a grade you know you can do (or have done) and try it with a pump on. This forces you to do everything efficiently, straight arm and all that. Lots of good advice above, have fun.
Chris
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