UKC

The IFSC has announced a new process to allow Russian and Belarusian athletes to return to competitions as neutrals from 2024. This decision means that athletes from these nations will be unable to qualify for the Paris 2024 Olympic Games in Sport Climbing, since participation in the Olympic Qualifier Series in 2024 is contingent on 2023 IFSC World Cup circuit rankings. 

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Really good article . Thanks ukc, it really brings home whats happening around the world -those 100+ armed conflicts raging at the moment...   It would be interesting to know how many of those armed conflicts were instigated by or  involved any competing capitalist empires trying to extract the natural resources from the country/region in question . 

It's also irrelevant in this case. I think it's weak leadership, all this nonsense about not the athletes fault etc.. if a country decides it wants to invade another carrying out atrocities, don't expect the citizens there to be able to carry out normal activities as though nothing is happening. I think the ban should be absolute, all sports, all levels, no neutral flag stuff either, plus a 20 year ban on hosting any major world sporting events in the future.

You mean regarding all conflicts right ? 

I don't like this. The idea that you can allow athletes who don't 'actively support' the invasion to participate as neutrals is mealy mouthed.

I know it's hard on the individuals. I also know that agitating for change is dangerous in Russia and Belarus but allowing 'get outs' for these countries will only delay change.

I think the ban should be absolute, all sports, all levels, no neutral flag stuff either, plus a 20 year ban on hosting any major world sporting events in the future.

Blimey there'll be nobody there at all .

Its ok though russia china or the us will send in special forces to destabilise the other teams and win that way ...

I think all three of those countries should be banned due to their covert actions across the globe funding terror and undermining democracy, causing untold misery all so thier business men can secure the natural resources to arbitrarily accumulate more wealth for the select few . Wile the rest of us fight it out.

These are 8 (so far) interesting anonymous virtue signals . You guys seem fine with China's human rights record....

Perhaps that wouldn't be such a bad thing? Most global sport these days is more about nationalism and making money than about sport.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide

Is Rwanda in the olympics . Ah that was more than 20 years ago so they are ok now, right exiled scot . 

I don't think China is a comparable example to Russia at the moment, though there's certainly a lot of inconsistency in media discussions of sporting events. A lot was made of the last world cup but virtually nothing about the Chinese winter Olympics.

But I'm not entirely sure about the stance of the others on this thread. Personally I think the athletes should denounce the Russian war, not just not actively support it (which just means saying nothing), and it seems to me that those who do this could perhaps be allowed to compete as individuals.

With all due respect your suggestion is a bit hollow as people can just lie and then be mean to others when you are not looking . I know how ridiculous that sounds but how els can I reply to your suggestion ?

And as for china, their treatment of the Uyghurs and their threats to taiwan are ongoing.

I don't think there's much scope for 'pretending' to be against the war in Russia. If you speak out, I'm not sure there's any way back.

Good point . But i'm sure they make an exception if they promised to lie ....

The leaders of Rwanda responsible aren't still in power and aren't literally still doing it right now as we speak. 

F*** the IFSC then. I'll watch their stuff even less from now on. (Regardless of that being impossible)

I suppose they all got a better job selling mining rights to china .

They're mostly dead, but you'd know that if you took a break from trotting out glib anti-capitalist cliches and actually informed yourself of anything.

How about we meet halfway and just ban athletes from all the countries from which strategic munitions are currently being launched against apartment complexes?

Currently is a very small moment in time . Exiled scot mentioned 20 years ...

There is no statute of limitations on murder .

Or genocide.

Is saudi arabia competing.  I believe the uk was sending them weapons to drop on yemeni tribespeople until very recently ...

There's a limitation on who you can hold responsible. Not born at the time = fairly sure you can't assume they were complicit.

'They're mostly dead, but you'd know that if you took a break from trotting out glib anti-capitalist cliches and actually informed yourself of anything'

I apologise i'll take a break from my 1 glib comment ...

There's a limitation on who you can hold responsible. Not born at the time = fairly sure you can't assume they were complicit.

Yes but you said mostly dead . Can you inform us how this happened and why you seem not to be bothered about pursuing the survivors that are responsible. 

This was about the athletes, genius. The athletes competing or not will have been at most toddlers when they supported or didn't the genocide in Rwanda. It is not comparable to Russia today.

This was about the leaders responsible, genius. It was 30 years ago when they were responsible. Most of them have since passed. It is not comparable to Russia today.

Nobody seems to be addressing my point about banning russia china and the us due to their global conduct over the recent years.  I don't pretend to have all the evidence or all the answers.  But its clear that leopards do not change their spots . They are all at it all over the world in order to extract natural resources.  And are not reinvesting the money in people or the environment . They are investing in war . 

And BTW relax this is a climbing website .

Isreal is current . Iran is current . Come on now ....

I can't believe some people find this so difficult. If a country invades another, with no justification beyond land grab, its leaders should be sanctioned, its companies should not be allowed to trade internationally, and its athletes should not be allowed to compete in international events.

Such sanctions should be reversed once the illegal incursion ceases; this acts as a carrot to help bring about such an outcome. 

Of course there will be other heinous acts which may be and are committed by some countries, which don't amount to such a black and white case as invasion of territory. South African apartheid is one example from not too long ago, and many people would suggest that Chinese treatment of its Ughur population should be treated similarly. But a line must be drawn somewhere, since I doubt that any country or government is entirely without blame for some actions that many would class as intolerable on some level.

Arguing the case for other countries is all well and good, but this should not be at the expense of letting Russia back into the sporting fold while still waging war against Ukraine.

John, i didn't say let russia back in . TBH i don't think the world currently deserves an olympics at all . 

The double standards are appalling are they not ?

And I don't think any of this has any place in climbing or sport media like here . 

It's not about finding the statement above difficult to understand, it's that one may not necessarily agree with it. Daniil Medvedev has been allowed to compete (under his own name), a decision backed by Andy Murray amongst others. Is there that big a difference between that and someone competing in a track and field event as an individual?

Is Murray some benchmark of morality!? If a Russian is so anti Putin and against Russian foreign policy, they can walk into an embassy and claim asylum. I've zero sympathy for some wealthy Russian tennis player being blocked from competing whilst Russian warships deliberately fire missiles from the Black Sea into civilian areas like they did in Odessa today. Bans should just absolute, no grey, then it avoids the risk of bias decision making. 

I absolutely agree, what is your timeframe for these atrocities. And what is your definition of atrocity ? 

Oh I'd go back to 1750, some say arguably 1745! 

Come on now ...Would you settle for the same regime being still in charge of a country when it committed the attrocity.

Oh I'd go back to 1750, some say arguably 1745! 

Haha if you'd have said 1776 that would have been funnier .

The current government is formed of the people who fought against the génocidaires. They are not the people who committed the genocide. 

God I hate it when people move to a different part of the world, become the majority there then demand self determination ...

Thanks . I did no research. Sorry everybody . 

I apologise i'm a bit too quick to type stuff sometimes . But my main (unaddressed) points are, that countries who have committed atrocities under the same current regime should be banned from the olympics . 

What is classed as an atrocity? 

And is there a time scale or any  accountability other than the regime change?

1. where do you draw the line?

2. It seems highly unlikely that it's the athletes that have been commiting atrocities. In fact it almost certainly isn't. Indeed I recall Iranian climbers getting a lot of support on here. Assuming they're ever able to compete again, should they be banned because of the actions of their authorities? 

Thanks ! I was hoping for discussion on this

1 When we define what atrocities are . I suggest things like shooting  protesters, executing political prisoners, election tampering, Invading countries. Stealing land, War crimes, Human rights abuses. That kind of stuff, i'm willing to evolve these things . What do you all think ? 

2 very good point but arn't we banning russia ?

That was most vocally in support of them bravely taking a stand against their government by not wearing headscarves.

Iranian climber Nasim Eshqi was recently protesting against the regime at the Cannes film festival. Other climbers and mountaineers inside Iran have been arrested by the regime. There is a strong protest movement in Iran and the consequences are also high - lots of people have been arrested and killed by the regime. I bet plenty of posters here even know the Iranian protestors’ slogan! 

Some Iranian climbers might want to compete, but perhaps others view competing under the Iranian flag as providing some kind of legitimacy for the government. Who knows? But it’s clearly a very different situation to Russia. Also, Iran hasn’t actually invaded another country lately. 
 

So no countries that commit human rights abuses should be in the Olympics? Most African countries are out then. Your Olympics is gonna be pretty white. Are you some kind of racist? 
 

Obviously I know you’re not but you’ve just invented a system that excludes huge numbers of black athletes. That sounds like structural racism to me. 
 

My point isn’t to have a go but rather to say that it’s quite complicated. 

Thats a ridiculous and offensive comment to me and quite a sweeping statement about africa from yourself . Its not helpful to the debate i'm trying to instigate .

Its too late for me now . I'm off to bed . Hopefully some people contribute something usefull . Instead of trolling .

There are 54 countries in Africa. According to the “Freedom in the World” index seven of them are rated as “free”, and some of those are tiny island nations like Cape Verde. The governments of the “partially free” and “not free” countries are almost certainly committing acts we would recognise as human rights abuses. I hope that puts my “sweeping statement” into some kind of context. 
 

True story: a friend of mine was working in Nigeria when a corpse was dumped on the street across from where she was staying. She asked her local colleagues if she should report it to the police, which horrified them. No way! Too dangerous, they told her, after all, it was probably the police who had committed the murder in the first place. And Nigeria doesn’t get the worst rating in the index of repression and unpleasantness I quoted earlier. 
 

I’m merely trying to point out that thinking about this sort of thing isn’t that simple. You might call that trolling and offensive and go off in a huff but that doesn’t really deal with the issue I’ve raised.

You seem to saying if black people commit abuses they get a free pass because to say anything would be racist.

I think you've raised a reasonable point but allowed it to get lost it in your associated anti-West rhetoric.  Any decision on banning countries and/or their athletes from sport is going to be somewhat arbitrary and open to charges of hypocrisy.  But that's true of many things that are a continuum and isn't a reason not to do it.

You say anti west rhetoric but I talk of banning china and iran ?!? You are taking the piss mate . Its not appreciated .

"involved any competing capitalist empires"

Anyway,  I tried to engage with your point as your requested but you seem to just want a fight, so I'll leave it.

I hope that puts my “sweeping statement” into some kind of context

You said what you said and it was what it was . I said human rights abuses and have been talking about china and iran .....

You started talking about black people.

Why is capitalist anti west .

Its clearly not as russia and  China are  not western. 

Any decision on banning countries and/or their athletes from sport is going to be somewhat arbitrary and open to charges of hypocrisy. 

I don't think its arbitrary.  And i clearly know this as i'm asking peoples opinion on what constitutes the reasons for the ban.  Why won't you put you head above the parapet and comment on iran or china. Come on think for yourself .

Exactly. I was trying to illustrate that Russia/Belarus may indeed be a special, very unfortunate, case.

So just to be clear about my post . What kinds of actions by a country do you think would qualify as an atrocity and constitute an Olympic ban ? 

Come on you can do it ....

Could the olympics happen without any national identity at all?

If some could be independant why not all ? 

The qualifiers could be organised from regions of the world ... 

Is your nation divided into regions or your region divided into nations.  As an athlete why would you care? 

There could be a different Olympics on each continent then a world olympics ... Why does it have to be so nationalistic? I don't think that is the original spirit of it anyway... when you think about it nationalism is a pretty toxic and arbitrary way to organise the qualifiers anyway ...

Feels a bit funny replying to myself ! but at least you could all debate these points now . Maybe even face to face ! With real people !... friends !😲

That’s a bit of a simplistic reading. It’s not that, as per your post, we shouldn’t say anything about abuses (which would be silly) but rather looking at the effects of the type of stringent Olympic ban the poster proposed.

I’m pointing out that if you had really tight criteria for attending the Olympics you’d basically ban a lot of poor counties, and end up with it being a competition between European countries, the US, Canada, Australasia, Japan and S Korea. Most of Africa and Asia and parts of S America would be banned. That’s going to be a very different looking competition.

The reason you’re banning the countries is essentially that they are quite poor. Either it’s hard to become rich on a per capita basis if your government abuses its citizens, or perhaps it’s hard to run a poor country without human rights abuses. Since most African countries are poor, this system would essentially be a racist system, even though it was set up for noble reasons. Unintended consequences suck!

You still haven’t really responded to any of my points, which is a shame. 

Its probably most practical to have the qualifiers organised nationally but then all competitors are independent ... 🤷🏻‍♂️

You do remind me of someone I knew extremely well, nearly half a century ago. Arguing with his Dad.

What points ?

The points that put you in a huff, ie the argument that your stringent list of reasons to ban counties from the Olympics would essentially ban lots of poor countries.

Take this overview from Amnesty International:

“The police used excessive and sometimes lethal force to break up protests. The right to life continued to be violated. Over 100 people were unlawfully killed; the incoming president disbanded a police unit he said was responsible for such killings.”

I think that country would be banned under your list, no? Anyhow, that’s Kenya. Enjoy the marathon.

This fascinating discussion about whether a country should be allowed or not to compete in Olympics or some other event misses the point entirely, as the proper solution is to abandon all mentions of countries from all competitions. Stop counting medals per country and all that as well. It is not countries which compete but people, while a country is a social construct which currently only serves evil, it seems.

I think the one nearest us could be called the European Championships. 

PS. You're a prize donkey. 

An outright ban would be approprier and certainly cleaner and easier to administer. In practice, the IOC approach is probably ok as there probably won’t be many Russia and Belorussian athletes who qualify under those criteria. Besides, the local officials might pressure them not to go anyway. That’s because the officials might not want participation on the basis of not actively supporting what is still called in Russia the special military operation (aka war / illegal invasion / widespread war crimes / potentially genocide). As far as the Russian government is concerned, it’s a case of with us or against us. So they might not want to put forward people on the understanding that they aren’t ‘with us’ (even if they are tacit supporters).

There is also a chance of regime change in the next year (though that might be wishful thinking), so there is some logic in kicking the can down the road into 2024 and beyond Paris (though not sure if the new rules would permit participation in the 2024 world championship - also not sure if there will be one in an Olympic year).

Stop insulting donkeys.

Oh right just checking you didn't mean the one where you said it would be a very white Olympics.... 

Donkey ?

It's that, or one cross bred with a horse.

That would be the actual result of implementing your ideas for the reasons I’ve outlined. Feel free to explain why those reasons are wrong, or to finesse your proposal to take my criticism into account. But please don’t act all offended as if what I said was beyond the pale. 

We hadn't really worked through everybody's ideas yet, I think i'm still waiting for some to come in actually. . . I suggested a few, but said i'd be open to change these ... When an agreed set of incidents and definitions had been identified those rules could be applied to all.

I can't understand this .

That would be the actual result of implementing your ideas for the reasons I’ve outlined. Feel free to explain why those reasons are wrong, or to finesse your proposal to take my criticism into account. But please don’t act all offended as if what I said was beyond the pale.

Thanks , well it seems like not enough people are willing to engage on what constitutes a ban-able offence for us to debate a list so... 

Ah well good job we don't all work for IOC .

Well, it’s written in English using very everyday words. 

Ahh, Its because I'd said those reasons were open to debate and suggestions and you are talking as if I had proposed a finished product...

Donkey 

Oh shit I got auto corrected ....

In theory, yes, but in practice, no. Watching the Olympics has become (has always been?) about supporting your country, not your favourite sports person. Like the world cup, the nationalistic/patriotic angle has a lot to do with why many enjoy it, and indeed why many watch it at all. It's one of its (by and large positive) attributes.

I can't recall if the world championships in athletics also has the nationalistic angle, but if not, that's maybe more for you.

You could have competitions with nationalism and all the unfairness due to wealth and resources that come with that, and a special one run by an independent organisation and funded by the participation sports governing bodies with revenue earned from those sport reinvested in the grass roots of those sports which completely excludes nationality.

Hey, wait..... you just said you couldn't do that ....

Perhaps a rule about the athletes being amateurs would also be in the interests of fairness....

I thought of some more things ... i've got ethnic cleansing ethnic displacement and apartheid...? What do you guys think of those ? They are instigated by the government ....

I know a lot of people that hate the nationalism involved in football.

Its mainly the bunting and flags everywhere . But also the drinking ,violence and upset people when they lose ...

Nationalism in sport just seems to upset people ...

I think invading another country for megalomaniac reasons and perpetrating numerous war crimes and human rights abuses there calls for a ban. I’m not really interested in whataboutism and debating other situations. There may well be other instances where a ban is appropriate but what Putin is doing is well beyond anything else going on at the moment. The reference to 100 armed conflicts, even if it is correct, is completely misguided because those other 99 conflicts are not really comparable in scale or nature. 

But equally, as I am sure you are painfully aware yourself, people (athletes) are not their nationality. Why should someone who is vocal in their opposition to the war, and desires to compete as a “neutral”, with all the consequences those entail, be prevented from competing? For example this is the exact conditions under which Alexander Vlasov is still competing in road cycling.
 

I’m in full agreement with you that anyone who a) won’t speak out against the war and b) wants to compete as Russian should not be competing.

I agree with you about Russia. But if you don't know what or where the other conflicts are or what crimes have been committed by the governments involved how can you say they are not comparable ? 

I mean people based in Russia and/or representing Russia. I assume he is not actually based in Russia - if he was, he wouldn’t be publicly vocal against the war… Also he is representing the cycling team rather than the national team. If I were to compete in an IFSC event (ha!), it would be to represent the UK and the fact that I have a long expired Russian passport should not count against me. But these are nuances which are applicable to a small number of people and can be addressed on case by case basis. 

I’m not aware of any other full scale invasions going on right now but happy to be educated. Anyway, as I said there may well be other instances where some kind of ban or restriction maybe appropriate. I’m just commenting on the case at hand because I have a personal interest in it.

By right now do you mean committed by the current regime without being held accountable yet ? 

I mean any decent nation would just stop a war for the eurovision song contest or the olymics right?

I appreciate what you are saying and to everybody, I understand the difficulty in comunication inherent in this medium.  The points of my debate are there if anyone cares  to filter them out and get the gist ...