UKC

We are having a lot of mountain guides and instructors (and some of their proxies) posting their services and websites on the UKC forums.

These commercial messages are not allowed in the main forums. If we allowed commercial messages in the main forums they would be unuseable - filled with adverts from the spamming community.

The easiest and most effective way to get the message out about your services is by buying a Premer Post, these are commercial messages that rotate in groups of five for each reader of the UKC forums.

Full details here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/premier.html

Many guides already use Premier Posts.

The UKClimbing.com website; the forums, news page, articles, photos etc gets on average 10,000 people viewing them a day.

http://ads.ukclimbing.com/whyukc.html

Alternatively take a seasonal three month advertising package out which bundles together Premier Posts, Banners, and Newsletters adverts to get full cross site exposure.

http://ads.ukclimbing.com/packages.html

Sometimes these also include a Commercial Profile which allows you to post on the main forums offering advice (not directly advertising your services) but by being helpful to the many people who are interested in using your services it allows you to form a relationship with potential clients.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/commercial.html

Taking a package out also allows you to post your services and courses under Latest Product News o the Gear page.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/

Also taking a package out allows you to have published informative and engaging articles of use to UKC's readers, with am advert for your services at the bottom.

For example;

Ice Climbing Gear Check
by Adrian Nelhams, International School of Mountaineering (ISM) 08/Nov/2007
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=616

Adrian's article has been viewed 2,386 times in less than a month.

Best regards,

Mick
Editor
UKClimbing.com

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

You got mail.

The Ent

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

It is about time. I do wonder, if they cut corners in their advertising budget by not paying a small fee to UKC, what other corners are they cutting?

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Some examples of Premier Posts by mountain guides, instructors and centres

Premier Post - Winter Kicks-Off in the Alps by Pat Littlejohn on - 21 Nov 2007 - alpin-ism.com/

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=272044

French Ice Climbing Courses - 10% off - AlpBase.com Jerry Gore

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=271738

Premier Post - Winter Skills Courses Scotland Rob Johnson expeditionguide.com

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=274183

Premier Post - SCOTTISH WINTER COURSES - with Jagged Globe

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=273834

Premier Post - Alpine Guides - Ice and Ski Courses 2008

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=273819

Premier Post - Ski Performance Course for Mountaineers - Chamonix

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=273610

Premier Post - Winter Mountaineering Courses (18-25 yrs) Heavily Subsidised

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=272809

Premier Post - Glenmore Dry Tooling Fest with Dave MaCleod & Lucy Creamer

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=272415

Look for more here:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/i.php?f=16

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: Mick emailed you. I'd prefer an option for smaller scale/part time companies. At the moment I don't think many part time small scale companies could afford to advertise on UKC. Not sure what the solution is though.

In reply to IainRUK:

Good points you made Iain. We are working on a new advertising delivery method, similar to Classifieds.....searchable and specific to companies and people looking for specific courses, products or services. I'll keep you posted on that.

Course, Holidays, Expeditions and Accommodation Premier Posts are £32 for one week, so are affordable and targetted and quantifiable.

But yes, agreed we need more options.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

What about if everyone who advertises for a minimum period gets added to an "Advertisers Hall of Fame" based by region, activity etc and punters can get a small blurb and click for their website that way?

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: The thing is, I don't think that may people read the premier posts. Usually when instructors etc post adverts they do so when the situation is relevant-eg:when a novice is asking a question like: Where can I find a good instructor in north wales. So, would an instructor be able to say "I am, here is the link to my premier post..."?
Sam

In reply to Sam L:

The thing is they do. They work. They have a positive effect on a business's bottom line. Proof of this is not me saying it but the repeats we get and testimonials. They are specific and people tend to read them if they are interested. But as I keep telling people, especially the die-hard focussed forum users, the best strategy is cross-site advertising if you can afford it, with benefits! The whole site viewing figures are big and increasing and will continue to do so.


The use of what we call Commercial Profiles (CP) are here:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/commercial.html

CP's can be used for forum posts. One business who has a CP gets most of his traffic to his website by posting on the forums.

The framework of UKC is there, we have a huge readership, rich and evolving content, different methods of advertising delivery are available: the crux is using it wisely and imaginatively.

Just for Mountain Guides, Courses and Outdoor Centres and those who are interested in using a guide or enrolling on a course we have two new features coming up.

1. the aforementioned classifieds.

2. Product News on the gear page.. http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/ will now have a category for outdoor courses and guides.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Those things are good Mick, but they don't address Ian's post above. Most of the courses advertised as premier posts are from much bigger businesses, that do have bigger marketing budgets than the average instructor or guide, whether they are full or part time.

I have used premier posts in the past for a few of my SPA courses, and this is not to say that I won't in the future, but to only get 1 person more per course is not really worth the current £32, thats more than a 1/3 of the course fee, which means its not financially an option for a small scale operation like mine.

Now if I was getting a whole course from advertising on here that would be a different situation, but most of clients for (for NGB courses at least) tend to come from either the MLTE website, or from personal recommendation (some of it indirectly from UKC). Not surprisingly enough, 90% of my clients find mine and most of my friends that are providers details from the MLTE website.

Before people flame me for wishing to use this forum for personal gain without paying, I must say that I would be willing to pay for advertising on here, if it was at a more realistic price. Hopefully the classifieds may deliver this.

In reply to Paul at work:

You are right £32 for a week is pricey for a sole operator. Maybe target them at PP's at your peak periods?

I'll have a word with Alan and Andy, the Directors of UKClimbing.com to address this issue. Factor in what you and Iain, and others, are saying and thinking. I think an area that is specifically for guides, instructors and courses and people who use them ( I'm thinking of a winter course this year myself) would be very beneficial to all.

I'll talk to them about the price of the new classifieds as well.

Just to clarify, I know how cynical people can be. But this media, UKClimbing.com, wants everyone to benefit, all climbers (and potential ones) out there, climbing businesses, and UKClimbing.com itself.

Please add to the dialogue. It really helps.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Mick,

Whats wrong with the Likes of this?

The OP asked a question, Alan K replied say he would run a course to fit his needs. http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=273590&v=1#4050523

Hardly a blatant advert, it wasn't as if Alan was posting on a thread on ice axes, offering to run courses.

Personally I would rather have this sort of interaction with guides like Alan through UKC, than not.

Tom

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: I agree Tom, I think there's a balance between chasing business and being helpful. To Be honest I don't think I've seen many people blatantly chasing business on here, normally it's just a post of 'yes I can do that, contact me', quite inobtrusive.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: Mick,

It was quite unessicessary to delete that post.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Thanks Tom. I've just deleted Alan's posts and emailed him.

That is exactly what a commercial profile is for.

It is not fair on guides who advertise on UKC to allow non-advertising guides to promote their services.

Second it is not fair on UKClimbing.com.

Now anyone is entitled to post on here, but if they do commercially they must pay as it will benefit their business.

Do you think the print magazines allow free adverts. No of course they don't.

Mick

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

It's still an advert. Compare that approach with a couple of posters on here, MIA's & MIC's, who simply advise checking, for example, the MLTE website. One is advice and advertisement the other is advice. Even Woodhead MRT, a volunteer, non-profit organisation use a PP to advertise their fundraising courses.

DJ

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

And I see that Alan's reply had been deleted.

But where does it stop, along with Alan's reply and then 5 other providers reply it can get a bit silly.

You just have to look at some of the posts on Ukrivers, and 3 or 4 providers in particular will always reply offering to run courses, and often start a tit for tat battle, which is very annoying to people who just wish to read about the subject that the post started with. Or start threads every hour, about the same course and then get annoyed and start major arguments, either on the forums or in private through email - http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29634&highligh...

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

How much is a commercail profile?

No, but Alan wasn't touting his business. He was answering a question on the forums, just like we all do every day.


I understand you point, but as a consummer I would rather see the likes of Alan posting here, than not.

The print magazines arn't interactive either. Alan wasn't advertising he was answering a request.

In reply to Paul at work: Fair point, but presently UKC doesn't have that issue.

Although I'm glad UKC is the superb resource it is, presented in a concise and unique style. Rather than that boring rubbish.

In reply to Deejay:
Even Woodhead MRT, a volunteer, non-profit organisation use a PP to advertise their fundraising courses.

But what rate do they pay? £32 for the courses or the £3 for charity / non profit events. A bit of a difference in price.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

It has once or twice, even now for the mods, things slip through the net.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:


What also is not fair for UKC is threads like that one in the Winter Climbing Forum. Threads like that one should be moved to the Starting Out Forum as this the more appropriate forum - "Advice for beginners & improvers".

Some day a person, new to winter climbing, will get into difficulties with the advice given by inexperienced posters on that forum, quite often it is like the blind leading the blind.

Guides/Instructors, who pay UKC, can give advice on the Starting Out Forum and plug themselves if they want.

In reply to Paul at work:


I am sometimes very dubious of businesses masquerading as charities.

Very common these days, even banks are up to it.

Mick

In reply to Norrie Muir:
>

Its not just on that forum is it Norrie? Granted its more obvious there.

In reply to Deejay:

Thanks DJ.

Just like any media, we are running a business here.

As are mountain guides and instructors who, quite inocently sometimes, post commercial messages here along with great sage advice.

It's the internet yes, but I'm afraid, with the amount of effort, time, talent and money that has gone into UKClimbing.com it is hardly free. I spend 12 hours a day working on this website. 16 hours yesterday if you include driving time.

I'm not on commission. I own nothing. I get paid a set amount each month. I believe it works. I could be sitting in Boulder, Colorado editing a climbing magazine, but I opted for the UK and UKClimbing.com.

Try getting a free advert in a climbing mag!

We have set up, are developing more favourable advertising methods.

A commercial profile is £200 a year Tom.

Mick

In reply to Paul at work:


And? Government funding for Mountain Rescue could be better so most teams engage in fundraising to bridge the deficit. The beneficiaries are not the team members, rather the rescuees/casualties they assist. To compare the reduced rate allowed to such an organisation to a business (whether it be a one man operation or something more substantial) is irrelevant.

The issue here, to my mind, is about a business, a profit making organisation, getting something for nothing. If a multinational posted on here for free would you be happy with that?

DJ

In reply to Deejay:

Its not really irrelevant, at all. Particularly as the case that you have mentioned as used indirectly to advertise a first aid providers individual business, as well as to support MR.

Like I said above DJ, I'm happy to play for advertising, but it has to suit what I can afford, there is no way a small business like mine can complete marketing budgets with the likes of PYB or the lodge. But we can on the standards of courses.

In reply to Paul at work:

Maybe there is, in some way, indirect advertisement but it is not explicit and that seems to be the core of the discussion here. To extrapolate your scenario then maybe posters should not recommend anyone whose courses they have attended? Isn't that indirect advertisement?


I cannot compete with St.Johns or Red Cross in terms of advertising budget for some of my courses so do I bleat to their advertisers? No. I find alternative methods, make sure the quality of my courses exceeds anyone elses and make a comfortable living.

I think Paul we'll have to agree to differ on this one.

Good luck with your courses.

DJ

In reply to Deejay:

We have agreed on a few things particular on standards of courses.

Good luck and thank you.

In reply to Deejay: It's not bleating.

Mick (UKC) is asking, and we are saying that as small businesses, even between us I bet we work on very different scales, we don't think UKC suits us.

The outdoors market is composed of many small scale/part time businesses like mine and Pauls, and UKC are probably missing out on additional revenue by not having enough options for us.

So it's beneficial to us both to have a few more options.

As said though I'm not sure how it will work, but by giving smaller businesses more choice, I'm sure UKC will see financial rewards.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Hi Mick and everyone else posting on this very interesting thread.

Im just home from langollen and extremely knackered to usefully contribute to the thread tonight. However it is something which affects me as I have gained clients from UKC both through PP's and word of mouth recommendations. I hope as my business grows to have a higher commercial profile here.

I have just clicked this link Mick http://ads.ukclimbing.com/packages.html
and you dont appear to have an option for freelance/sole trader instructors like Paul at work (hi Paul ) and myself - it seems to be aimed at cash rich? shops walls and gear manufacturers.

I would really like to get intoi a dialogue about a package suitable for folks like meself, Paul. Iain and Deejay and his 1st aid (funnily enough I know them all from the real world too).

But as I said I am too knackered and will probably ramble and lack clarity - but I will return to this post tomorrow before I go climbing.

Excellent post so far

Cheers

David

In reply to IainRUK:

One thing that interests me Iain is how you perceive the classified ads in magazines.

Do you use them?
Are they good value?
How do you think they compare to Premier Posts, for example?

As Mick has probably let you know, we are working on a new system here which could well fit your requirements anyway, so these questions might not be so relevant.

Cheers

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC: We've only just set up, so not at the moment. We've been discussing how to market next year. At the moment we are working out what balance we want as we both work full time in our 'real' jobs, but also want to keep racing/and having our own hill time on some weekends.

With us being fell running mainly, I think we may target mags likes Runnersworlds, probably via articles than classified ads.

We are very new in all this so couldn't compare a mag add to PP.

I'd probably want to have some permanent albeit occassional roling advert on an online forum than a one hit classified ad in a magazine.

In reply to IainRUK:


The fine blanacing act of advertorials. The cross over of editorial and advertisng which when taken to far turns viewers off and is the reason for the dire straights the mags are in.



With print you have no idea how many people are reading or responding to your adverts.

With the unique admin page set up at UKClimbing.com you have all the information at your finger tips in real time. It really is unique, quantifiable and transparent. A genius system. Outdoors Magic don't do it, they are based on the old print model....visual perception rather than actual quantifiable eyeballs on your message, "Oh look at this, my ad is here", but really only one person is viewing it, you.

You can even work out cost per viewer at UKC. Most of the outdoor print mags won't even publish therir print run (and so called readership is bullshit, 3 times print run indeed!!!!!!!.)...as a now ex-editor said to me, "they can't, it's embarrasing".



Wise move. If it works, it works and you do more. If it doesn't you don't do it.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:


The key is a system that actually lets you know if it works.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: Yeah it would be good to get figures on revenue brought into businesses through advertising on your site. $$'s in for $$'s out kind of thing.

In reply to IainRUK:

Outside is a good one. First month advertising, they recouped there investment 7 times over. They've been advertising ever since.

Repeat advertisers are the best testament to the effectiveness of advertising here; but as I have said before it is not a gimme, you have to work for it, better than pissing your money away at something that is unquantifiable and based on perception rather than hard and fast results.

"Returning advertisers, however, are the real test of how effective advertising is and they include; Scarpa, Grivel, Wild Country, DMM, Berghaus, Gear For Girls, Prana, Metolius, Heason Events, Beacon Climbing Centre, Global Vision International, Outside, Alpkit, Holdz, Joe Brown's, Hot Rock, The Foundry, Ascent Training, Rock and Run, Mile End, Climb France, Woodhead Mountain Rescue Team, BoulderBus, Rob Johnson expeditionguide, Manchester Climbing Centre, the International School of Mountaineering, and Rockfax; all signed up again.

There's even more now: ISM, Glenmore Lodge , Jagged Globe, Speakers From The Edge, Slackjaw, Crag X............

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Mick - since this is an advert. offering your advertising services should it not be a premier post?

In reply to IainRUK: Man Utd & Chelsea can spend more on players than anyone else, so they get more business,you have to speculate to accumulate!!

To offer a reduced rate for one man bands wold be the equivalent of a wages cap and would inhibit the free market economy.

In reply to Andy Say: I would have thought it should be in the news section

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Are you allowed to post links to guides' sites if you have seen that they have conditions reports? I'm not a guide but I know some who are.