UKC

I'm pretty much fed up of this winter and am now looking at stuff I can do on rock this year. I've been climbing fairly comfortably on grit at VS for about two years and have got up one or two HVSs but feel like I'm miles away from being established at the grade. I've seen the recent 'great HVSs' discussion and los of the ones on the grit seem to be regarded as hard for the grade. I've been told that HVS is a very wide grade so don't really fancy finding myself on something that's pushing E1. So, any recommendations for good soft-touch HVSs in the Peak please (I'm better clued up on what's in Yorkshire). Steep stuff, cracks, loads of gear definitely preferred to slabs, crap gear. So far I've Tody's Wall, Chequer's Buttress, Agony Crack.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Knight's Move, Burbage North?
oh, and TPS, obviously...

In reply to Mr Fuller:



Queersville is ace

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Croton Oil is straightforward and very good
Bond Street, easy enough if you can jam.
Leaning Butress Direct on Stanage, steep start then one stiffish pull higher up

In reply to Mr Fuller:

The classics are Lancashire Wall and Knights move but both are VS 5a in my opinion.

Agony Crack was mentioned but that is VS 5a.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

>Chequer's Buttress

Really? It was E1 when I did it and that didn't seem absurd. Unless you're tall it's unlikely to go well if you're just starting at HVS, I'd suggest.

jcm

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Off the top of my head:

Lyons Corner House at Millstone
Bamford Rib at Bamford

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Pebbledash at the roaches and Mississipi Varient at stanage are the softest grit HVS climbs I've done, much easier than some of the really stiff VS's IMO.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Stanage Pop is the place for good, friendly HVS:

Cave Arete is a nice one, so is Robin Hood's blah blah with Harding's Super Direct Finish - a little intimidating with an overhang high up, but straightforward and short-lived (the low crux on the VS is the proper crux). Mississippi Variant is a superb HVS. These 3 are top notch and fairly low in the grade (but not soft-touches like Lancashire Wall).

If I was you, I'd stay at that end of Stanage, down the other end the classic HVSs tend to be a bit on the horrific side.

Btw, the tough HVSs are not "pushing E1", they're miles harder!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



What? No way has that ever been E1, it's a feel-good HVS. Surely everything easier than E4 was HVS back then anyway...

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I could be wrong. This would have been 1983 or so. Maybe the Froggatt guide with Profit on the front cover, or even the one before?
Either way, I’m not sure our more vertically-challenged friends are going to agree with you.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I had the old yellow Froggatt guide when I first did it in the early 80s; it was "extremely severe" in that

In reply to Mr Fuller:
Great western and overhanging groove are two amazing HVS's and aren't too high in the grade

In reply to Hat Dude:


I think it may have been XS(-) or something similar??


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

You could be right

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Chequers Butress is pretty soft in the grade climbing wise and also well protected.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Not thinking of Chequers Crack? That is a classic HVS struggle.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

You need these:

http://www.rockfax.com/databases/graded.php?area=1

http://www.rockfax.com/databases/graded.php?area=7


Chris

In reply to ChrisBrooke:


He, he!

My first day on grit and had yet to learn to jam. "Chequers Crack is worth doing if you've not been here before" says my Sheffield based mate.

Three skin grafts later ...

In reply to Mr Fuller:
Tyrone at Lawrencefield is a good quarried crack without lots of jamming. Dover's wall route 2 at Stanage with a great bit at the end.

Actually, I don't think there are lots of soft ones that feel like hvs.

Oh yeah, but BAWs crawl feels like nothing else and only 4c apparently!

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Two on ash tree wall at Burbage N, ash tree variations and ash trees forever? one might be VS 5c actually, but they are low cruxes and one or two movers

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


I once did Chequers Buttress with Ed February (who is famously compact) and Dave Turnbull. Two of us had a moment's pause for thought on the crux. And neither of them was Turnbull.

We all did Chequers Crack immediately afterwards with no great difficulty as I recall.

In reply to maybe_si:

We've been through this. It is indeed excellent but not soft for HVS unless you are both good at mantleshelves and reasonably tall. It's not one to fall off the first 65% of.

In reply to Mr Fuller:


Worth reminding people of that - most of what many of us regard as soft touches would be run-out slabs !

I'd suggest Millstone and Lyons Corner House or Great North Road. Bond Street is often cited as being easy, but I found it harder than those two (mainly due to an aversion to painful foot jams). Although personally I'd go over the road and do Meringue at Lawrencefield

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Avalanche Wall at Curbar was always considered a starter HVS in my day.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

The softest HVSs are on the Culm Coast. Sometimes you can just push your fingers right in.

In reply to Al Evans:


Something fell out of it. Harder nowadays, or maybe I'm just older.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Sunset Creek ...
Steve

In reply to Mr Fuller:

If we get some good weather, Shining Clough is worth a look for 2 excellent HVSs which are somewhere in the lower half of the grade: the guidebook cover East Rib (spectacular, juggy fun) and Pisa Superdirect. There are good VSs and E1s too, a great mid-grade venue.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I thought Pisa Superdirect was pretty stiff but if you allowed that the I say Great Buttress on Dovestones Tor which is as steep as they come with plenty of gear.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Bilberry Cake at Burbage North has got to be the easiest HVS in the Peak http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=46014

Tody's Wall at Frogatt is well protected and a nice route http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10917

Great North Road at Millstone is steady with plenty of gear and it's amazing climbing (if you like bridging) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10774

Lyons Corner House Direct at Millstone if you can get the now tough start, is good and safe http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10743

There's always TPS if you get bored and fancy a toddle up a HS.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

'Soft' HVS in the Peak? Ha, ha. That's a good joke. I like that joke.

In reply to MischaHY:

There are loads of sandbag HVSs in the Peak, but there are just as many trivial little things which you can basically climb without noticing. Potter along Baslow ticking HVSs for example, and it's hardly a bruising battle like you'd get at Hen Cloud or Ramshaw.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Svelt at Millstone and Kremlin Krack at Rivelin are soft and both with loads of gear.

In reply to Dave 88:


Of course, TW is loads easier nowadays, with modern gear, but that big rock over move is still quite something if you are short. So quite low, but not bottom of grade.


At least mid-HVS. A very fine pitch; one of the best long pitches of its grade in the Peak. But, yes, v well protected.

In reply to Mr Fuller:
Sauls crack at roaches is low in grade and easily protected.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Oh I know, I was just kidding. Plenty of HVS in the Peak that is cruising territory.

In reply to Orgsm:


I always used to think that - but got a bit of a shock when I repeated it many years later. When did you last do it? It's horrendously polished and thus much harder.

In reply to MischaHY:

Soft Hard VS is a great new name for a grade: fits in well with the daft British tradition!

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Nowanda

Gear or go?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


About 16 years ago now I think of it, but it was one of my first HVS.

In reply to JJL:



I would never describe Nowanda as soft, and the UKC logbooks are on my side. Take a look!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

As I discovered to my shame:
There is a choice.
One way is go, no gear. You may get an easy HVS tick. You may get a plummet.
The other is gear. You will dog.

I dogged he first time and got a beta tick the second.

In reply to John Stainforth:

Agreed, let's just keep building the gap so that folk never have to admit that they're ready for the dreaded E1

In reply to JJL:

I don't really follow you. I really can't believe it becomes easy HVS by soloing it. It seemed quite technically awkward.

In reply to Mr Fuller:
Goliath's Groove at Stanage ?

Or Right Unconquerable ?

In reply to Ciderslider:


Absolutely not!

In reply to Mr Fuller:

I'd agree with Mississippi Variant being an easy HVS for grit. Queersville isn't a pumpy HVS but its a lot bolder than a VS and I wouldn't be talked into that one being soft for the grade too easily.
Climb some VS 5a grades to start off your rock climbing year and then start mixing in some HVS routes at 5a too.

In reply to Dave 88:

I just wanted to see how long it would take for someone to notice
It was one of my first HVS's (and my first on grit) - yes it's a bit of a struggle, but safe as houses.

In reply to Steve Perry:

MV isn't much harder than MBD and is certainly soft. Cave arete is good with just one reachy move. I found Eliminator far easier than Queersville (both seconded) I am going to lead Eliminator next time I'm up, but am not going anywhere near Queersville before having another couple of goes on second.

In reply to Ciderslider:

Agh 6 minutes, I walked right into that

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Wow, cheers all there's tonnes of suggestions there. I'll get the guidebooks out and have a sift through. Also glad to have come up with a new grade in 'soft hard very severe'.

It does certainly seem that HVS has a few horrors on but at least enough easy ones to get established in the grade without crapping my pants.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Also, I might try to make this thread into a ticklist if I get a minute.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

April Arete

In reply to Dave 88:

Don't worry mate, that's usually me

In reply to Mr Fuller:

How did you find Agony Crack ?

In reply to Ciderslider:
You're right though in some circumstances. In my experience well rounded VS leaders who can fight up VS offwidth and are moving up to HVS always find GG easy.

In reply to Offwidth:


That was me. I assumed the crux was the upper groove, so was almost disappointed to discover that it was actually totally trivial.

Similarly - the above suggestion of Kremlin Crack is only good if a) you like a bit of a thrash and b) you have a big cam. If those are both true, then it's a good soft tick.

And to whoever thought that falling off the first 65% of Queersville was dangerous - there's only 2 moves at the end of the leftwards traverse which are essentially unprotected, the rest is perfectly safe. And the crux isn't the mantleshelf, but getting your hands to the ledge which you then mantle, surely?

In reply to GLUF:
Silly suggestion: Old and Wrinkled should be E1. I think the Crease right next door, at E1, is easier and safer (another great demo of dumb voting on UKC logbooks... anyone who has done both on the same day knows that they feel roughly the same with O&W mostly getting the wise tips for being harder, as its more delicate and less escapable). If climbers can do super bold Sunset Slab is the route of choice. For boldness like O&W something like Meringue is far more amenable.

In reply to Offwidth:

I`ll try the Crease then.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Parker's eliminate at Hobson moor. Quality, safe and soft.

In reply to Orgsm:


Hmmm. After Goliath's (and Ciderslider was joking anyway), that's the next daftest suggestion. Then Queersville.

In reply to Rog Wilko:


I'd agree with that. Not really worthy of HVS at all (but as it was my first, I'll take it !)

In reply to Jonny2vests:

Queersville was my first proper HVS onsight, with a belayer I'd met that day. I was really solid at the time across a range of tough classic VS grit climbs. Only really bold or brutal suggestions are cruel if the climber has had a reasonable apprenticeship.

In reply to Offwidth:

Doesn't matter how you spin it, it's not soft.

In reply to Jonny2vests:

It is. Only one hard move with gear right next to you and a bold but easy bit lower down. It was one of my first too. Goliath's is also soft unless you're a crack-fearing moron.

In reply to victim of mathematics:

Actually, it's very height dependent, a shorty can't reach that gear stood on the ledge. I don't think its hard, but it's not soft. One of my first too on grit, but I'm not sure why that's relevant.

And anyone that climbs Goliath's buried in the back of the crack is missing all the fun, and the point.

In reply to victim of mathematics:


Which may possibly be colouring your perception. Out of interest, roughly how many have you done?



Well, so you tell us...

'The confidence of amateurs is the envy of professionals.'

Mick

In reply to Jonny2vests:
I'd say it's the other way round: anyone eschewing the crack is ignoring the weight of history (unless they back and foot). It should be low in the grade but it's more like mid-grade these days the way most HVS leaders wide crack climb. I'd agree Queersville isn't especially low in the grade and its a bit reachy for the likes of you; it doesn't feel like you've climbed an over-graded VS though (unlike Knight's Move).

In reply to Offwidth:


I agree, next time I'm there I'll bring my nailed boots and shove rocks down the back of it, otherwise it just wouldn't be right.

In reply to Mick Ward:





Well said.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Leaning buttress direct is something I do early in the season to remind myself hvs is easy, which of course it isn't!
Series of short boulder problems either close to ground or close to excellent gear and ledges.
Followed by a bit of 4b padding , all very low fear and high happiness.
Just don't jump on right unconquerable and suicide wall straight afterwards thinking you are solid at the grade!
I think hardings Superdirect is fair and safe to do afterwards, good rests well protected and you can always bail out at the ledge if you don't fancy it
Good luck (and don't touch nowanda its death or misery )

In reply to Jonny2vests:

Safe enough for a man of your ability in non-nailed big boots and no chocks. History extends beyond early history.

In reply to rurp:

Harding's is great they just don't tell you the VS approach is so tough (you still get the HVS tick with other approaches). Feels a bit cheating though at the grade. LBD is quite technical so not always the best starter in my view unless you are a boulderer getting into trad (when its piss).

In reply to Mick Ward:

Look at his logbook and posting history: lots of stuff to E2. I'd be interested in how Victim found Crimson Crysalis at Red Rocks (given some posters here said it was 5.8 going on E1) than easy peak HVSs.

In reply to Offwidth:
Ok then, just for fun - in your opinion, give me (a total starting out on HVS punter) examples of soft, mid grade and bastard hard HVS at Stanage (pref popular)

Recon that I could guess at - solid mid grade - Right Unconquerable
bastard 'ard - FBD (yet to do)
soft - ?

So how come Eliminator is HVS 5b and Queersville is HVS 5a ? Cruised the first - and f@cked up the second (both as a second)

In reply to Ciderslider:


Eliminator is probably 5a really. There's a technical move low down (possibly just tickling 5b) then a move high up which is certainly 5b if you don't spot the right way to do it (and feels 5c if you do it wrong and you're already pumped). It's a funny route, I found it high in the grade initially, now it's one that I'm happy soloing.

Queersville's a tough 5a, and both cruxes feel committing. Fairly tough for a Stan Pop hvs (which I think are generally softer than average), but not high in the grade by any means.

In reply to Offwidth:


But it doesn't extend to not offwidthing it I with the benefit of sticky rubber shoes?

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Thanks Jon, I'm going up on one of my all too infrequent trips up to Stanage this coming Fri/Sat (if the weather plays ball). I am hopefully going to try some more HVS - any suggestions ? (see my logbook for details of stuff I've struggled up

In reply to Ciderslider:
Easy is Lancashire Wall or BAW's Crawl and only a bit harder is Agony Crack. I cruised Queersville (bold and obvious is Ok for me) and found Elliminator quite hard both at mid grade. Hard is Right Unconquerable (Plantation), Rugosity Crack, The Link. Bastard is Nursery Crack (Stanage End). FBD is E1; Kelly's (High Neb) is E1; Little Things (Stanage North) is E2. Of course these are nominal averages so individual strengths give extra chances of top ticks and weaknesses unexpected trouble. Then we all have good days and bad days and conditions change.

In reply to victim of mathematics:


When I first did Goliaths Groove(as a very young boy) I was so scared by the look of the top bit that I did Doncasters Route instead, even though I'd found the bottom bit easy!

In reply to Offwidth:

Easy is Lancaster Wall or BAW's Crawl and only a bit harder is Agony Crack.

Have you turned into Yoda Offwidth?

In reply to Jonny2vests:

I find the easiest way is a few knee bars and smears before the hand crack is reached, so easier with climbing shoes.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

No just watched thousands and climbed with hundreds and I've got very good in guidebook work at realising routes I find hard or easy compared to the norm. Its all guestimates but well informed ones.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

I think he missed the pun.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Not seen The Sloth mentioned so far. Steep, well protected and pretty easy once you commit.

In reply to Ciderslider:
You can't go wrong with the classic Stanage Pop HVSs, they're all great and none are horrors (unless you count FBD which is blatantly solid E1).

I see you done/seconded quite a few of them, here's my thoughts on some of the others.

Rugosity Crack: a technical crux and still a bit goey at the top, short but not easy.

The Flange: a well-protected stiff pull, then the usual rounded breaks. Nice, but lacks a line after the start

Black Magic: The Whillan's Pendulum start isn't very nice (gear/landing), though it is quite fun if you approach it confidently. The delicate sloping breaks up the rib are lovely.

Retroversion: HVS 5a really. An excellent route, a thousand times more enjoyable than Inverted V. Very Stanagey break-to-break climbing, with a fun traverse and overhang. A great place to get started.

Cold Turkey: superb break-to-break fun, if rather escapable. The breaks do tend to slope and don't take a huge amount of gear, so not everyone's cup of tea (but definitely mine).

Good Friday: technical break-to-break stuff with a proper crux, high in the grade. A favourite of mine: brilliant climbing.

Morrison's Redoubt: Thought I'd slip a soft E1 in because the E1 bit is so short-lived it basically is HVS.

Congo Corner: don't bother, do The Link, it's still HVS (a fairly tough one).

The Scoop: quite tough, but really great. Not too scary (so long as you've got plenty of cams), but it's rounded and potentially pumpy. Fantastic fun!

Pedlar's Arete: a nice little route, with technical moves and gear just where it's required. Good if you fancy something miniature but still worthwhile

Greengrocer Wall: the best of these short routes, a good introduction to more technical climbing with its potentially puzzling boulder problem start. After that, it's quite involved steep pulling up the breaks, so hurry up and don't get pumped!

August Arete: A nice enough little route, much harder if you can't reach the next break.

Cue: leave it 'til later.

Billiard Buttress: everything here is a soft touch, it's piss. A little bold at the start, but on good holds. Why not have a crack at Pot Black, that's not much harder than HVS and has good gear for the crux (well, it's not above your head, but it's safe).

Overhanging Wall: A good route, quite exciting. Not too hard.

Fina: an excellent route, technical and unobvious moves, very gritstone.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Why leave Cue til later? I thought it was great, or do you mean the mega thrutch at the start?

In reply to LakesWinter:


Eughh. Thrutchy start, then quite committing hard moves which need a big cam to protect. Probably dead green now too.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Fina - I found the first move up the arête absolutely desperate, and that's not the crux - the crux was straightforward by comparison. Short man's issue I guess. Similarly, Chequer's Buttress is not a soft touch if you're short.

In reply to the OP - Svelt is very easy for HVS, as is Tody's Wall. Rusty Crack at Stanage is a good one to push your grade - tough but protectable start followed by easy moves to finish. Short Slab at Curbar is simple enough but poorly protected. Pedestal Crack at Froggatt is also a contender. Plexity at Millstone feels bigger than it actually is - steady climbing with one stiffish move high up, but be careful with your rope work. Libra at The Roaches is also a good easy HVS, technical 4c moves and not as run out as you'd expect - small wires protect adequately.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Thanks Jon, gonna keep watching the weather and hopefully will get a bit of quality grit time

In reply to EarlyBird:


Look for the hidden hold next time - helps a lot.

In reply to mrchewy:
Pun I missed indeed

In reply to Jon Stewart:
All good stuff from the perspective of someone who climbs a good bit harder than HVS. The bits I disagree with most are that Congo Corner is a great HVS if you spot the trick start and can mantel and that Billiard Buttress isn't a soft touch (Milson's and Pot Black are though). Quite a lot on that list will feel pushy for those working through HVS (esp Fina, Greengrocers and Retroversion- a terrible route to get started on for most). I'd put stuff in instead like Cave Arete, Mississippi variant, Paucity and Cave Gully Wall (see Stanage graded list for difficulties of the classics). The easiest to climb is Townsend's but its also the boldest.

In reply to Offwidth:

"Missed the pun I did" would be rather more Yoda-esque.

Interesting stuff above tho. I've done a couple of VS routes on grit now and wanted to do Hargreaves on Saturday arvo but someone was on it, Queersville I didn't like the look of and I chose to have a go at Kirkus Corner instead. To be honest, that, Hargreaves and Hollybush Corner (?Vdiff) were the only lines that really stood out to me all day and made me want to climb them. I sometimes think it's easy to look for climbs at the grade you think you should be climbing rather than climbs you have a natural affinity for and the psyche to want to climb them.
It was my first time at the Popular end, I could see why it was called that - nice stuff there.

In reply to Offwidth:


Crimson Chrysalis? Totally ace, but nowhere near E1. Just like loads of Awesome VS pitches stacked on top of each other and with bolts wherever there's a tricky move. Might just sneak into HVS for its length, but it's no harder than the other classic 5.8s there like Frogland or Dark Shadows. We had it to ourselves as well - how have you not done it?

In reply to Offwidth:


I agree, but I wonder if it's for the same reasons? At HVS the start is quite pushy and essentially unprotected. The rest is a pleasant romp.

In reply to Mick Ward:


Around 300, but I'm not sure if that proves or disproves your point. I do tend to find most grit HVSs fairly desperate affairs, though (I can jam and thrutch just fine, but I get pumped at the drop of a hat).

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Yes, there must be something because I don't recall it being too reachy.

In reply to Mr Fuller:
Wow, this is turning into a pretty awesome list, cheers all.

Ciderslider, I haven't done Agony Crack yet, I'd just added it to the list of possibilities. I've seconded Right Unconquerable and a few other Stanage HVSs and have led Peg Crack at Ilkley (short, steep, well protected), Gable Route at Burbage South (blatantly VS) and Tyrone at Lawrencefield (VS really as well). I tried Broken Crack (Frogatt) about 18 months ago and got pumped out of my nut trying the last couple of metres, which was annoying.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Ah, Agony crack is on my radar (as I'm just dabbling at HVS myself). Right Unconquerable isn't too bad to second as you don't have all the stress of balancing getting gear in and not getting too pumped. It's a great route to lead, and if you think about what you are doing re gear pretty safe. Although if you get to the final mantle/crawl/grovel without being pumped out of your mind then your a better man than me (that's on the lead of course).
All joking aside if you like a fight Goliath's Groove is brilliant - it's a hard won battle, but the feeling you get when you get to the top is fantastic - when I led it I just lay at the top totally spent (like a salmon having reached the spawning ground) the poor walker who watched me top out then just lay there asked if I was ok, you bet I was (all the way to the pub, god that first pint was good !)
Also it's super safe

In reply to Ciderslider:

Goliath's Groove does look strangely appealing. I've not got any really big cams but if I got my head in gear and sprinted the start it could go... I too found Right Unconquerable okay on second but was glad I could just steam-train through the layback and not worry about placing gear. The top belly-flop was brutal, especially when the tie in knot got jammed...

In reply to Mr Fuller:
It's really good brutal fun - you need a camalot 4 to protect the very bottom part (got mine stuck so my first grit onsight lead cost me 75 quid - would have been gutted if I hadn't got it, and I so nearly didn't )
I wouldn't try to layback it on lead, coz if you run out of steam or slip you're gonna hurt yourself - also very hard to place gear.
RU you can get a cam in b4 you steam around the nose and then get a rest in (and welcome gear) just after. Also it will take as many cams as you've got - and all bomber (as I well know !!)
Also if you can do Right you can probably do left - although the crux is a bit barn doory

In reply to Offwidth:

I just went along the crag in my head, including all the classic routes I've climbed a few times because I like them, it's not supposed to be a list of softies.

What's wrong with Retroversion? It's always been at the bottom of graded lists hasn't it? There's plenty of gear and it's - easier than Cold Turkey and Meiosis.


He's already done them, and they've already been discussed, hence not in my post.


Forgot about it, nice route - quite exciting and delicate at the top.


Mistake? This route?

http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=801
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10299

The comments don't seem to back up your idea that this route isn't a dangerous sandbag horror. I'm not the only one who thinks it's unprotected 5b above ankle-snappers.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Cave Wall is a little bold but not dangerous bold. The slab has a good wire the top a clean fall on reachy HVS 4c terrain.

IMHO your view on soft HVS routes is a bit out as you seemingly refuse to take your skill set into account. You like bold delicate routes and I'd say you consistently undergrade them (by sometimes up to half a grade). The Stanage guide graded list is a good indicator although I disagree in a few places based on viewing and listening to others, so for reference I'll list it with a few comments in brackets (the Rockfax list is a bit more variable as its mainly based on votes from differnt voting populations and overgrades soft touches and undergrades hard routes plus there are occasional CC interventions like FBD over-ruled to give an HVS):


(Real hard)

Suzzanne (E1 in new money: an old school HVS 6a microroute)
Rusty Wall (very technical start due to polish)
Greengrocer Wall (maybe a bit high)
Tower Crack (aghhh! old school crack skills needed)
Kelly's Overhang (E1 for an onsight: trick route which stops E2 leaders sometimes)

(hard)

Terrazza Crack (honest stiff E0ish jamming)
Good Friday
Pedlar's Slab (easy for a boulderer)
Valediction (maybe a bit high)
Surgeons Saunter (technical start and feel that pump)
Apparent North (hard but I lack reliable info)
Travesties
Overhanging Wall
The Little Unconquerable (old school crack: a bit low for onsight)
Deuteromity
Leviticus
Right-Hand Tower (great for balance climbers)
The Link (a bit low but easier than FBD)


(midgrade)
Congo Corner (a bit high a lot easier than The Link)
Tower Face original (a bit high)
Elliminator (Ok if you suss it)
Fina (Ok but bold)
The Blurter
The Right Unconquerable (way too low)
The Watch Tower (too low)
Paucity (too high)
The Flange
Cave Arete (too high)
The Knutter (a bit too low)
Billiard Buttress (bold start a bit too low)
The Mississippi Variant
The Scoop
Goliath's Groove (brutal or bold if you can't climb wide cracks, easy if you can, so placed in the middle of a very wide range of experiences).
Black Magic (start can get people)
Rusty Crack (hard strat...heading up list with polish)
Travesties(typo double entry see above)
Cave Gully Wall
August Arete
Exodus (bit low)
Rugosity Crack (way too low...view of extreme climbing finger-lock experts)
Pegasus Rib (bold)
Cue (way too low)
Sudoxe (given E1...must be for the right-hand variant finish...I lack good info but probably too low)

(lower end)

Queersville
Square Buttress Direct (pumpy)
Agony Crack (a bit too high unless you cant climb cracks)
Townsend's Variation (too low equivalent to a VS 4b solo)
(easy)

Hardings Super direct (steep but easy)
Centre Stage (a little too low)
Old Salt
Cleft Wing (too low: technical and bold start)
The Groper (much too low)
BAWs Crawl (maybe even VS)
Retroversion (way too low...requires confidence or quite scary)
Grotto Wall (too low ... bold)

In reply to Offwidth:

Yeah Grotto Wall is bold - there is good gear after you commit but it could be missed and then it is quite rounded and pumpy on those breaks too.

Retroversion is fine though - lots of gear but a bit steep on the crux, HVS 4c is fine for it. I'd agree that BAW's crawl is more like VS 5a though, totally classic nonetheless.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Right Fin at Burbage North is soft - arguably VS.

In reply to Offwidth:
The mississipi variant is if anything a bit easier than agony crack and arguably better protected.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Interesting view: all the graded lists and votes say otherwise on the grade and very different styles. Id say both are pretty bomber for pro.

In reply to LakesWinter:


Feels like bog standard HVS 5a to me. It's not technically easier, not bolder nor more sustained than any of the similar routes in my mind. Always thought it was a strange grade for the route.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Absolutely agreed. 4c is just plain wrong. Either a typo, or graded by someone with an inferiority complex.

In reply to Offwidth:

I did queersville at the end of last years season, I normally climb up to E2. I found it to be very hard for HVS and thought the chance of deck out was very high as you traverse away from the gear!could be wrong though!

In reply to Mr Fuller:

If you fancy a walk, then get on Legacy on Kinder North. Very straightforward, very well protected and if it was at Stanage pop it would probably be the HVS with the most ascents.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Yeah Knights Move is the easiest HVS I've ever done... Chequers Buttress too I'd say was pretty easy

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm really a VS leader but make occasional forays higher,so here's some comments from the wibbly end of things (done about a third of the list and another 100 or so other HVSs). Agree with most of your comments.
Thought Square Buttress Direct only VS 5a, agree that Agony Crack and Queersville are bottom end, but think Townsend's is worth its position for the lack of gear. Did Goliath's when it was VS 5a & wouldn't quibble with that. Could always do Pedlar's Slab even when only just starting into the VS grade (boulder problem with a couple of moves of Severe above) Would give Sudoxe Left hand VS 4c (regularly solo it), the RH good E1. Found Groper desperate (failed on it) & wimped Cleft Wing several times, so would move both up the list.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Also getting into HVS...
GNR seemed fairly straightforward yesterday, safe and really good too. On the other hand I found rusty crack at stanage quite scary with a thin unprotected move between the 5c start and the easy second half.
Padme at stoney seemed ok too although its quite pumpy so need to be careful to place good gear.
GG seemed hard because its an offwidth; a VS or HS offwidth would also seem hard to me. The layback is nowhere near as hard as alter crack.
An ok soft touch is creased wall at Harborough, quite a bit easier than Knights move.

In reply to Offwidth:

Its not really an 'interesting view' look the rockfax graded list.

http://www.rockfax.com/databases/graded.php?area=1

Both Agony Crack and Mississipi Variant are very similar in difficulty. Having done a few grit HVS's and a number of fairly stiff grit VS climbs I think Mississipi Variant is more like VS 5a. Its not sustained, its well protected and the 5a bit is about one move long and is surrounded by HS climbing. BTW I traversed quite low on Mississipi Variant there are pics on ukc of people traversing with there feet where my hands were, this looks quite a bit harder so could explain the grade discrepancy.

As for the protection I think the hardest moves on Agony Crack are moving up to the mid height break and the gear is a little spaced for this section and the climber is close enough to the ground it wouldn't take too much for things to go wrong IMO.

In reply to 999thAndy:

and waiting for a heatwave

In reply to CurlyStevo:

OK I'll happily agree anything marginal is arguably marginal if that makes you happy. I still think with graded lists we need compliers to avoid ego and personnal feel and watch more.

The link is useful but for a better comparison I've cut out the Stanage ones here. I've added a few comments again in brackets where I havent said anything before. One obvious thing is that there are too many routes in this list at Stanage compared to elsewhere and the one star ones seem even more oddly distributed)

HVS

(hard)

*** Kelly's Overhang Stanage High Neb (E1)
*** Flying Buttress Direct Stanage Popular (E1)
*** Surgeon's Saunter Stanage End OK
** Travesties Stanage High Neb
** Deuteronomy Stanage High Neb
*** Terrazza Crack Stanage End
* Cave Gully Wall Stanage Popular
** Tower Crack Stanage Plantation
** Good Friday Stanage Popular
* The Dalesman Stanage High Neb (hard)
** Cue Stanage Plantation
*** Eliminator Stanage Popular
*** Right-hand Tower Stanage End
* Prudence Stanage Popular (aka Providence or maybe Divine Providence mediocre counter-claimed CC eliminate somewhere in HVS to E1 range depending on line)
** Namenlos Stanage Plantation (OK)
** Cold Turkey Stanage Popular (maybe a bit high)
*** The Scoop Stanage Popular

(mid)

** Fina Stanage Plantation
* Sudoxe Stanage High Neb
*** The Blurter Stanage High Neb
** The Flange Stanage Popular
*** Queersville Stanage Popular
*** The Right Unconquerable Stanage Plantation
* Jim Crow Stanage End (too low)
** Pedlar's Slab Stanage Popular
** Rugosity Crack Stanage Popular
** Billiard Buttress Stanage Plantation
** Overhanging Wall Stanage Plantation
* Rugosity Wall Stanage Popular
** Paucity Stanage Popular
*** Goliath's Groove Stanage Plantation
** The Knutter Stanage High Neb
* Meiosis Stanage Popular
*** Congo Corner Stanage Popular
*** Whillans' Pendulum and Black Magic Stanage Popular
** Butcher Crack Stanage Popular (maybe too low)
* Valediction Stanage End
** Cave Arete Stanage Popular
** Tower Face Stanage Plantation
** Harding's Super Direct Finish Stanage Popular
* Rusty Crack Stanage Popular
* Pedlar's Arete Stanage Popular
** Centre Stage Stanage Popular
* Perforation Stanage End (maybe a bit low0
* Greengrocer Wall Stanage Popular
* Exodus Stanage High Neb
* Wall Buttress Stanage Plantation (maybe a bit high... still VS in BMC which is mean)
** Leaning Buttress Direct Stanage Popular
** Mississippi Variant Stanage Popular
* Dover's Wall, Route 2 Stanage Popular (easy)
** Retroversion Stanage Popular
** Agony Crack Stanage Popular
** August Arete Stanage Plantation

(easy)

*** BAW's Crawl Stanage Popular
* Mantelpiece Buttress Direct Stanage Popular (midgrade)
* Lucy's Slab Stanage High Neb (hard HVS)
* Lancashire Wall Stanage Popular (VS)
* Parasite Stanage Plantation (mixed views given...can't say more than easy to mid)
* Where did my Tan Go? Stanage High Neb (mid grade)

In reply to Jon Stewart:
I've done Legacy a few hours after rain in spring so if you dont know the route well please don't make shit up. Its a genuine quick drying pleasant softer HVS somewhere at the border of easy and mid-grade. Its very untypical of north facing routes on Kinder.

In reply to Offwidth:

Why the arsey tone? I've climbed on that buttress a few times and there's been lingering damp in all but heatwave conditions

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Im 'arsey' as these crags get too much of a reputation for being slow drying and the lack of traffic away from the more reliable classics like Legacy means starred routes can get unneccesarily dirty. Surprisingly few starred routes up there need a heatwave, even if a heatwave is a really good time to go for the slower drying lines. So comments from someone normally trustworthy on conditions really don't help. It dries quite quickly for kinder north including once for me in a very light breeze on an average temp spring day. On the UKC logbooks there are April ascents and even one in November.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Prelude to Space is fun up on the skyline at the Roaches (HVS4C)and if you fancy something a bit esoteric then go for Toe Rail (Back Forest - Roaches area)

In reply to Mr Fuller:

I've always thought Pincer on the Roaches LT was easy for HVS

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Centre stage
Lancashire wall
Rugosity crack
Eliminator

All have good gear so make sure you place it and go for it

In reply to Offwidth:

I agree with Jon that Kinder North is very much a place for good long summer days in dry conditions. One doesn't go up there for just one route. Also, I don't think those routes, particularly on the Legacy buttress, get at all dirty. There's a lot of wind and rain up there. Legacy I'd put 1/3 up the grade, as you suggest, but no lower, because the start is quite committing, and you have to go quite a long way before you can get your first runner on (IIRC) - then it's sheer bliss.

In reply to Darron:

Is Pincer really HVS now?! I remember it as being tough at Hard Severe.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Well it in the Staffs grit guide I'm still using (1989)
Notice it's VS 5a in the logbooks on here which is about right.

In reply to Darron:

Yes, I'd say VS 5a is spot on.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Has anybody suggested Manchester United on the Manchester Buttress at stanage? Gets HVS 5b, but s never harder than HS 4c!!!!

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Hi,

For my two pence worth, all based on memory of the on-sight. Rather random list, but here goes.

Lower end HVS's:

Knights Move, Burbage N
Right Fin, Burbage North
Tody's Wall, Froggatt
Centre Stage, Stanage
Svelt, Millstone
Lyons Corner House, Millstone
Croton Oil, Rivelin
Coyote Buttress, Wildcat
Neb buttress, Bamford
Three Pebble Slab.....Ahem, sorry

Of some of the routes already mentioned, thoughts below:

Eliminator, Stanage Safe, popular, really good, but is a bit reachy
Paucity, Stanage, great route, fiddly gear, 5b move for sure
Queersville, Brilliant but mid HVS, and bolder than some listed.
Cave Arete, for me a bit reachy
Lancashire Wall, Stanage (is VS 5a)
Goliaths Groove, On-sighted all but GG!, Enough said.

Excellent routes, Mid HVS (but safe), roughly easier to harder:

Chequers Buttress, Froggatt
Right Unconquerable, Stanage
The Scoop, Stanage
Great North Road, Millstone
Plexity, Millstone
Cataclysm, Wildcat
Conclusor, Ravensdale

Higher End HVS:

Blizzard Ridge, Rivelin
Catastrophe Grooves, Wildcat
The Grogan, Burbage N

In reply to Mr Fuller:


Wilfully ignoring this I'll nominate two relatively diddly little things at Bamford
Very similar to each other but one has worse gear than the other (you can get the placements, but they are unconvincing)

Tinner (NO WAY is it 5b. More like 4c, but with teetering)
Right Hand Twin.

These were my first HVS onsights. I still retreat from some VS, so I'll say that if I onsighted these, they must be soft.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Thanks Mr Fuller this is a great thread.....Scoop Face Castle Naze

In reply to Mr Fuller:

What are you good at?

Butchers crack on stanage is excellent if you like a bit of thugging. Great pro. Bit short but doesn't feel it!

Tower face is on the lower end of hvs.

Don't bother with either of the pedlars although they are cracking micro routes for a solo!

If you don't mind a bit of bold I really didn't think namenloss was that hard.

Meringue for sure. Protected hvs slab!

In reply to above:

Anyone done Stomach Traverse at Burbage North? Thought HVS 4c for this as it's not too technical but feels pretty bold, even with cams up to 5! (so yes, not soft overall)

In reply to alpinechris:

Cheers, though I'm not sure I've contributed a lot! This is indeed turning into a very useful thread.

In reply to Wilbur:

I'm crap at slabs (I wouldn't say I was very good even at VS slabs due to being about as flexible as a brick and not trusting my feet). That's something I need to work at, but I also don't find slabs very appealing/enjoyable, which is perhaps a separate issue but probably related.

I'm a lot better at steep stuff or cracks. My jamming's a lot better than it used to be and I feel fairly solid on either slopers or crimps but feet-wise I'd much rather have edges than minging smears. Gear-wise, the more the better! It's weird... in winter or when mountaineering I don't really get too scared by running it out but on grit I'm very conscious of the ground and so would rather get pumped out of my head placing tonnes of gear than run it out and risk taking a fair fall.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

You might quite like butchers crack then. The start is a pig but not in a bold way.

Also those who have said agony crack - I think that might suit also and todys wall..

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Yes and yes!

VS 4c if you've got a size 6 cam...

In reply to Ciderslider:

Sorry to hijack but this sounds like a public school punishment!!!!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Your memory fails you Gordon. The traverse on Legacy can be completely laced with cams the only slightly bold bit is preserving mid sized gear in case you run out and some of the moves up on the end (especialy if the size you needed is back at the start). My point on Legacy is that it is most certainly not only a heatwave route because it stays clean but neighbouring routes which are also not only heatwave routes get dirty through lack of traffic partly because the likes of Jon put out misinformation. In a heatwave, as with any grit, the friction is less good and slopers are less easy to hold, so that is the time for good easier routes up there that rarely dry. In a heatwave the high mountain routes trump any grit.

Some other recent suggestions Stomach Traverse is indeed VS with a big cam. I found Tinner scary (ditto for its neighbours) although it would be fine for those who love bold delicate walls. Rugosity Crack might feel easy for boulderers but wont be for typical trad climbers moving into HVS. Pincer is soft although it is VS now in the Definitive. Libra is easier if you place less gear. Toe Rail is mid grade. Prelude to Space is easy but very bold. Todys is VS really but weird and the gear placements are eroding.

In reply to Offwidth:

Very hard grit routes have been ticked in heat waves though! I seem to remember Mike Weeks doing some pretty high E numbers a number of years back during hot weather (and I'm sure many others have been done since).

In reply to CurlyStevo:
Not because heat is good. In some cases it was the only opportunity, but the coldest time of the spell is nearly always targetted: eg breeziest time or early am. Also some people are more affected than others depending on how much their hands perspire. My ability on slopers drops a couple of grades in heat, others I know claim to be more affected still. I find shaded grit on still heatwave days unpleasant, yet if I go high enough in the mountains and seek shade, and any breeze available, conditions can be good.

Back to my point, those who climb on the moors a lot know that grit is not so different there: so cool and dry is best. A good dry spell in May can be perfect for the high moors and enjoyable climbing is possible on routes like Legacy on Kinder North in April and early November as the logbooks indicate.

In reply to Offwidth:

I also find grit a fair bit harder in hot weather.

Can't find links to the article about Mikes climbs (assuming I remember the climber right) but I do remember it being during very hot weather and pretty high E Grades.

In reply to Offwidth:

I know what you mean I was up on Legacy when it was roasting hot last July at about 6pm mid week. probably the nicest route I did all year. Had the whole of the edge to myself. Bone dry (obviously) but not greasy at all. A warm breeze too.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Just had a thought...You could have a look at Thrug again on the skyline at the Roaches. Its a crack, its steep and takes stacks of gear. Most guides give it VS5a but I have noticed UKC gives it HVS5a. I think its bottom end HVS if you like cracks

In reply to alpinechris:

Hmmm, there's some interesting ideas coming up here, it may just be a sign of the times, but like I have always thought Queersville easy and done it several times, yet me and Keith Myhill both thought Paucity was desperate, as was The Sloth (yet we had done much harder routes the same day we did them) It wasn't as though Sloth had a big reputation then, the N Staffs lads insisted it was VS yet the day we failed on it we had both easily led several routes still graded in the E grades to this day.

In reply to Al Evans:

Maybe its just what you get use to eh. A bit like that game football. Playing at home an all that

In reply to Offwidth:



I found it scary too, but isn't that slightly the point?
OK to clarify my suggestion - the gear is too crap too lower off from and and the downclimb is daunting to contemplate, so when you are half way up you are forced to teeter up to the top, either running it out or chucking more crap gear into hopeless rounded breaks. Great stuff! This goes for both routes

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Surely if the OP is looking to break into HVS then suggesting something which will leave him stranded with poor gear is not that helpful? In my list above I have tried to list routes that are both low end at HVS and some which are in the middle of the grade but relatively safe.

Further to Al's post, yes Queersville is pretty steady, I would list it somewhere around Chequers Buttress (mid to low HVS)? But you would be close to a ground fall if you fluffed the first traverse from the dinosaurs spine.

Paucity, Goliaths Groove and Sloth are just not break into grade routes IMHO. Eliminator does actually require 5b climbing especially if you have a short reach.

Horses for courses I guess, Long Tall Sally is often cited as a good first E1 lead, which is a mystery to me, its pretty safe but hard compare to a good few.

Further to the OPs observation HVS is a wide and wonderful grade. Many E1s are easier than some hard classic HVS's. HVS can almost be a stopper grade if you take a strict progressive approach to grade ascension. I would suggest that keeping an eye open for appealing E1s whilst working into HVS might be useful. There are HVS routes which would stop steady E1, E2 leaders.

In reply to Wayne S:


Did you read my previous post? i.e. the one where I said that they were my first HVS onsights and therefore must be considered to be soft? I rested on gear on Knight's Move FFS!
My follow-up post, which you are replying to, is merely my disclaimer.

You can look at Tinner and Right Hand Twin from the ground and easily see the entire route and what it will entail.

I agree with your post though.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Ah, now you point out the chronology! its a long thread and I should have read closer

If we are comparing notes on Bamford, I thought Porthole was pretty steady though latest guide makes it sound a worrying lead, which I didn't think it was. Plimsoll Line next to it is a click harder mind.