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NEWS: INTERVIEW: Emma Twyford on Unjustified - 8c or 8b+?

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 UKC News 20 Aug 2014
Emma Twyford, 3 kbEmma Twyford talks grades, car crashes, relationships and more in this UKC Interview.

From Lakes E7s and pints of ale in Langdale through to hard sport routes in Yorkshire and the grade of Unjustified, Emma spills the beans on her recent hard climbing...

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69116

 Michael Ryan 20 Aug 2014
In reply to UKC News:

A good in-depth interview.
 Michael Ryan 20 Aug 2014
In reply to UKC News:

"The second thing that has come as no surprise is that Unjustified could well be downgraded to 8b+."

Where/What is the source for this potential downgrade? .....

You state that it is: 'For those in the know about hard sport in the UK'?

Is it the fuzzy word at the crag?

UKC logbook comments for the route?: http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=12630

Is it the word from the repeat ascensionists who met in The Buck for an extraordinary meeting on the grade of Unjustified.....with bottled water bought by Mark compiler of the Rockfax Northern Limestone guidebook?

 Michael Hood 20 Aug 2014
In reply to Michael Ryan: When was it upgraded from 8b+ to 8c?

 Michael Ryan 20 Aug 2014
In reply to Michael Hood:

> When was it upgraded from 8b+ to 8c?

When was it downgraded from 8c to 8b+? Didn't the good Doctor Mitchell give it 8c after getting rid of Nic Sellar's sika hold?
 Mark Lloyd 20 Aug 2014
In reply to Michael Ryan:

From Uk Bouldering

The history of Unjustified might shed light on this.

Nic made a hold out of siki and went straight up after the crux at 8b+, justified and ancient. Tony came along and wanted another 8c for himself and knocked off alot of the hold and got his 8c, that he renamed Unjustified.

I remember reading that it was a little known fact that not all the siki had been taken off and Tony still used a little of it to pull on. This means that Tony went straight up after the crux like Nic did. Now everyone loops out right doing the new easier method that I think the Darwin Weasel found. This method does not use the glue for hands and as far as I know nobody has done it the way Tony did and gave 8c for.
 Michael Hood 20 Aug 2014
In reply to Michael Ryan: My bad, had for some reason (bad memory got it mixed up with Cry Freedom.

 Blue Straggler 20 Aug 2014
Not being deliberately contentious here, but I've noticed over the years that IN GENERAL, high-level ascents by women seem to generate more grade debate than those by men. It's a bit saddening.

In reply to Michael Ryan:

To answer your question, there is a new guidebook being written. Wide canvassing of opinion from ascensionists of the route gave a general consensus at 8b+. It's most likely to go in the new guide at this grade. Caff thought Predator was harder, but that's a fairly extreme view!

The grade change has nothing to do with Emma making an ascent of this route, and I thought this section of the article:

"it is a shame that it takes a historically significant event to catalyse a public change of grade on a route that has been in existence for twenty years."

and Blue Straggler's comment above are a bit unfortunate. The downgrade of Unjustified has been on the cards for some time really, probably ever since Al Cassidy's ascent. The reason this has emerged now is simply that it's the first time in a few years that an ascent of Unjustified has been at all newsworthy.

Indeed, the biggest shame in the reporting of this news story is how the grade of the route has been treated. The standard of reporting of this story is typical of climbing news - state the facts, show some pics, a quick interview with the climber. If internet news sources had taken the trouble to ask a few activists for their opinion on the ascent a more nuanced picture would have emerged.

For a start, the route would probably never have been reported at 8c, and Emma wouldn't have to deal with all the fallout. But also, the ascent could have been put into context with other top-class ascents by women climbers. Basically, the grades of almost all the hard routes climbed by British women are hot topics of debate. Kalea Borroka (8b/+, Lucy Creamer), Unjustified (8b+/c, Emma) and even Mecca (8b/b+, Mina L-W) are all considered candidates for downgrades by those who have climbed them recently, or have already been downgraded in some guides. Interestingly, only Fish Eye (8c, Hazel F) is not considered a downgrade candidate. Despite that, people who have tried both suggest that Unjustified and Fish Eye are of similar difficulty.

This complexity shows two things. First - the grade is never the whole story and we should probably start to expect journalism that delves beyond a date, a route name and a grade. Second - although there are now four British women to have climbed 8b+/8c, all the discussion about the grade serves to hide the fact that Emma's ascent is ground-breaking, and probably as hard as any British woman has climbed to-date.
 Michael Ryan 20 Aug 2014
In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Cheers Stuart.
 Blue Straggler 20 Aug 2014
In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Thanks, that is interesting stuff. I'm not sure why you call my comment "unfortunate", it seems that it ties in a bit with what you say: "the grades of almost all the hard routes climbed by British women are hot topics of debate"

I fully agree with the comment about getting a more nuanced picture but it does seem (and I say this with all respect to the reporters etc.) that there is an urgency to publish ASAP. I didn't see anything so wrong with this report myself, actually I thought it was good!
In reply to Michael Ryan:

> When was it downgraded from 8c to 8b+?

When Sam did it of course
 Steve Crowe Global Crag Moderator 20 Aug 2014
In reply to midgets of the world unite:

You took the words right out of my mouth. Well said Stu.

Oh and well done Emma.
In reply to Steve Crowe:

Indeed - well done Emma! And, for historical accuracy, I should point out I forgot that Katy Whittaker has climbed 8b+ with China Crisis at Oliana. Oops!
In reply to Blue Straggler:
> Thanks, that is interesting stuff. I'm not sure why you call my comment "unfortunate", it seems that it ties in a bit with what you say: "the grades of almost all the hard routes climbed by British women are hot topics of debate"

Maybe 'unfortunate' is too strong. What I don't like about it is the insinuation that the downgrade is getting discussed because the route has had a female ascent. In this case it is plain wrong. The same discussion would have occurred if some hypothetical (male) youth had climbed the route, and widespread news coverage ensued.

I think in general it is wrong as well. If there is a correlation between discussions of downgrades and female ascents of hard routes, it is probably explained by the fact that people of all genders breaking new ground tend to do so on soft touches.

Like you, I thought Jack's report was quite good. In the context of climbing reporting it was in-depth and interesting. If I have a complaint it is with the state of climbing reporting in general. I think the climbing media is getting big enough now that we can and should expect higher standards. Especially in the case of ascents as impressive as Emma's...
Post edited at 14:50
 Michael Ryan 20 Aug 2014
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

> When Sam did it of course

What did Alex Megos think?

Megos and Ondra should be employed as grade checkers so there is a global MegosOndra standard.
 Andy Farnell 20 Aug 2014
In reply to Michael Ryan: AFAIK Ondra thought Unjustified easier than Bat Route or Cry Freedom. Given Bat Route is 8c and Cry Freedom (currently) 8b+ then you can guess what Unjustified may be on that scale.

Andy F

 Blue Straggler 21 Aug 2014
In reply to andy farnell:

> then you can guess what Unjustified may be on that scale.

Mid 8b+ and harder for the short of stature? That's my guess. "On that scale".

 Michael Ryan 21 Aug 2014
In reply to midgets of the world unite:

It's the initial newsflash that is the problem.

NEWSFLASH: First British 8c for Emma Twyford: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69103

In a rush for click bait, the consequences: financial, emotional, and feeding the chitter-chatter are often ignored.

It would have been better as NEWSFLASH: Unjustified for Emma Twyford

Then some detail about the possible grade.

At least Jack followed up with a more nuanced report.
 grubes 21 Aug 2014
In reply to Michael Ryan:

Here you go Mick some more context to the debate
Alan cassidy suggesting the down grade to jack in 2011
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=62828
 Blue Straggler 21 Aug 2014
In reply to midgets of the world unite:

> Maybe 'unfortunate' is too strong. What I don't like about it is the insinuation that the downgrade is getting discussed because the route has had a female ascent. In this case it is plain wrong. The same discussion would have occurred if some hypothetical (male) youth had climbed the route, and widespread news coverage ensued.

Thanks, I didn't see this reply yesterday. I think you are right in a sense, but in this case (and in others I've seen) the discussion was IMMEDIATE and is completely dominating things. I believe that a similar discussion in the wake of a male ascent, would not be quite so "aggressive" and would include technical discussion regarding his height, reach, strength, particular moves etc. Here, Emma's been pretty much sidelined in the discussion, and it's all about the route and its grade.

Anyway I'll leave it at that. Cheers!
 danm 21 Aug 2014
In reply to Blue Straggler:

The grade debate is an annoying side issue which has been rumbling around for ages. What is beyond dispute is that Emma is on fire at the moment on both trad and sport, quite inspiring really.
 Michael Gordon 21 Aug 2014
In reply to Blue Straggler:
It's not surprising that a discussion of the grade was more to the fore than usual, since it was concerning a potentially historic ascent. Male ascents of the same route are less significant and so qualifying the exact grade becomes less important.
Post edited at 22:57
 Blue Straggler 21 Aug 2014
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Point taken! Ta
In reply to grubes:

Hey there, I don't usually get involved in these discussions about grades, pretty much because I feel the conversation is pretty arbitrary and subjective (as Emma quite rightly stated in her interview). But here is my pennies worth...

Both myself and Alan Cassidy climbed "Unjustified" within about a month of each other back in 2011. I remember both of us taking 8b+ for it as we felt that for us it didn't warrant 8c. I think Alan's opinion was that it had felt similar to some soft 8c's on the continent. My thoughts were that it had felt considerably easier than 8c's I had done and tried before. I didn't have as much experience as Alan back then anyway but had climbed a lot of 8b+'s at the time and a couple of 8c's and felt that I had done 8b's and 8b+'s that felt harder than "Unjustified". It was a personal opinion, that is all...

My opinion hasn't changed since then. I do think that "Unjustified" for me felt more like 8b+, it didn't feel too dissimilar to "Predator" (8b) at Malham (maybe with a slightly more bouldery crux and a more sustained finish) and it was definitely a notch easier than "Bat Route" (8c) which is already considered a soft touch at the grade. "Bat Route" suited me more and I almost did it on my 3rd go if it wasn't for some wet holds on the top slab whereas "Unjustified" had a bouldery crux that I found slightly frustrating having had to climb through a wet section of wall to get to it.

What I would say is this... I have climbed 8a+'s that felt harder than 8c's I've done... If your a seasoned climber you don't need me to tell you how subjective climbing is. Emma's ascent of "Unjustified" is bloody impressive and is a testament to hard work, determination and awesome skill and whether or not the route is given 8b+ or 8c it doesn't really matter, because all we are doing is trying to compare what a bunch of people of varying heights/strengths/weaknesses climbed and to me, that doesn't seem fair...

Emma's ascent of "Unjustified" is probably the hardest sport climbing done by a woman in the UK regardless of grade... Good Effort and good luck on climbing more hard rocks and stuff



 Blue Straggler 24 Aug 2014
In reply to Robbie_Phillips:

Thank you Robbie. Frankly, the rest of the thread can pretty much be deleted now You have given a very concise and fair/honest appraisal from the PoV of someone who's done these routes (not that other commenters have not..but you've put it very well, and - as it should be - POSITIVELY)
Cheers

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