UKC

I’ve decided to get a gravel bike..

Im planning to go over to Alpkit to look at Sonder range but would be keen to hear any opinions…

sizing wise I ride a 56cm with a 90 or 100 stem on my toad bikes but as normal my height indicates most often a medium on the charts. I’m 5’11 but long body and short legs. From a gravel perspective I take it that a more upright position is generally the norm….would be interested in any experiences of roadie cyclists getting a gravel and thoughts on sizing/geometry etc!

ball park figure of £1500 max….been looking at a few used bikes but not seen anything I’ve wanted to buy yet and persuaded by a couple of riders in my cycling club that the Sonders are good value and good spec for the cost…

thanks for any comments!

I bought as Sonder Camino for my GF for her birthday 6 months ago. A great value bike for what you get. Hydraulic brakes and a 1x11 go well on a gravel bike . So that's where most of the cost goes. The final price was £1,413 ( although she had a dyno hub and a seasonal discount added) 

I built an identical spec bike with a steel frame (Genesis Croix de fer) using second hand key components and some hand built wheels. I doubt i built it for under £1,100. And although similar spec Croix de Fers are circa £2600 new. The Camino is on par with the CdF. 

So yes, i think the Camino is a great way into gravel.

In terms of sizing, my GF transitioned to gravel from Sportive/ Trathlon events on a competitive road bike with a partial TT bike fit. Shes amazed by the comfort and she actually went for a larger frame and short stem.

Meanwhile I maintained the same frame size from my road bike to the CDF (size 54 frame and im 5,9). Its easily the most comfortable bike ive ever ridden. An upright position is great but you need the saddle to accommodate the extra weight. The steel frame in the CDF helps that. 

Thanks for the reply…

Good to hear and will have a good look at the Sonder at the weekend. The price for the Alu bike with Shimano has just gone up from when I looked it last week….Im guessing this is a changeable price at different times…a bit like Planet X!

I would throw whatever bike you have now and can comfortably ride for a long day into a geometry comparison tool such as bikeinsights and compare the geo. Endurance road and gravel bikes are not that different from one another in terms of stack and reach. Maybe account for a slightly higher stack if you want to ride it for long bikepacking days or rough terrain.

Edit: head tube angle, also important to consider for stable handling. 

IMHO tire clearance and frame material are just as important to consider.

Bump….appreciative of any other comments, thanks.

You can hire Sonder bikes for a day and then they'll refund the hire fee if you go on to buy one. That's what my partner did.

Another vote of confidence in favour of the Camino. I bought mine a year ago and have absolutely loved it. I went with GRX1 and have really rated the system, both for the gears and the brakes. There’s an older thread somewhere that people discuss the merits of one vs. two rings up front. I’ve been fine with one, surprisingly so, but it depends on what you want to use it for.

I’ve liked it so much I’m going to use it as a winter road bike. Just bought a second set of wheels which I’m going to attach some 35mm slick tyres to. Can’t wait to get out on it as/when the tyres arrive.

As already above, go with sizing like your road bike if you can really relax on that for more than a few hours.  You will probably want the handlebars a little higher on a gravel so if it's an option, do not cut down the steerer until you've had a few decent rides and are happy with the position. It's good being a bit more 'head up' on really rough surfaces - you'll not need to aero tuck at those speeds anyhow

If you aim to ride really challenging stuff, towards mountain biking territory, then best to get a machine with dropper post (or routing for same) and clearance for at least 47mm tyres.  Gearing will also be a factor - I have 1x11 on a Ragley Trig but have fitted a 2x mountain bike chainset to my Specialized Diverge and the granny is often useful.  Hydraulic brakes, despite servicing being a bit of a faff (with SRAM), are also well worth the additional expense. When you start to tire, especially.

It's great to get away from the traffic.

Sonder Camino GRX2 x11 here. Had a Cannondale Topstone Apex 1 prior to that. The SRAM brakes on the Topstone were awful. They might work, they might not. New calipers didn't resolve.

Sold the Topstone and bought the Camino. Brilliant. So much more stable and the GRX is fantastic. Went GRX2 as I thought it was easier to lose a sprocket and remove a cable if I wanted to go 1by. Didn't fancy the cost of buying a left hand brifter if I wanted to go 2by. Think I would be quite happy with GRX1 x12.

Nelson at Alpkit Hathersage was brilliant although he has moved on. Sonder also has the advantage of being able to upgrade or swap parts around. Would highly recommend. I did have a quick ride from the shop to test fit. 5' 9" and medium.

The bad news is that I got knocked off the bike last Wednesday. Slow speed but knocked into the road and broke my helmet. Taken to hospital for CT scan on my head as I could not remember conversations or reply to questions from the paramedics. Sitting here looking outside at the sunshine but not feeling up to a ride. Haven't really looked at the bike yet to examine if there is anything other than superficial damage.

I was already scheduled for an operation in November so the Camino was the bike I rode the most as I reasoned that I couldn't  afford to fall off the MTB. (Hey ho) Have done some MTB routes and it is so much fun. Enjoy.

Maybe worth having a look at orro terra, might be some good deals now they have gone bust. Certainly some very close to your price point

Hope you are recovered and feeling better soon mate…

Im not to sure how often Alpkit sales come round but i know they have great customer service, if you can have the conversation with the manager at your local Alpkit i'm sure they will honor last weeks price if you tell them the situation.

My partner had the SRAM Rival 1x11 groupset with GXP Bottom bracket. At the time lots of suppliers were selling this groupset off cheap prior to the new SRAM Rival arriving. It has 1x12 with the new SRAM DUB bottom bracket standard. 

I like the SRAM, if you are coming from anything mechanical then it will still feel great compared. 

Bloody hell, I hope you're ok!!

Good to hear you've had similarly positive experiences of the Camino too. Hopefully you'll be back on it again soon.

I've been an Alpkit customer for 20 years now I guess and most recent bike came from them - a Transmitter. Generally they do have good customer service but it isn't flawless, like any other companies they can make mistakes. I bought my bike (so they had my money) with one build and delivery date. They then let me know it wouldn't come by then, so set a new later date, that came and went without hearing anything, I had to contact them, then it got complicated as I was about leave the country for a holiday so didn't want it delivered when I wasn't there etc. New date set, and IIRC, they didn't make that one either - it was a few days later. But this was some months after I had actually paid. I did get up graded wheels, as a result, but there were a few other things which I wasn't so impressed with - I decided not to pay for tubeless set up (the option on their website) knowing I could do it myself and it seemed a lot for that. What they don't tell you on the website is that although the wheels are tubeless ready, the tyres they put on the bike are not. I only found this out later from one of the designers who answered on a Facebook group! The tubeless set up, wasn't just them doing the set up, it was them upgrading to higher quality tyre to. I like the bike, and I've got lots of other Alpkit gear and some bits of Sonder kit, but for me buying a bike is likely to be the most expensive thing I buy that year, and it wasn't perfect - no better or worse than getting my Boardman from whatever that webshop is (or was) that is a 'front' for Halfords!

I guess it depends on your aptitude, free time, or if you can be bothered (or all three), but I've come across flared drop bars being fitted to 'noughties' mountain bike frames with rigid forks and bigger wheels, and whichever brake and gear mix the builder wanted. 

Microshift mechs and shifters get decent reviews, btw, in being budget in price but not in function. 

It works, but getting the geometry right is quite tricky. 

I've got an old noughties steel mountain bike in the garage if anyone wants to try, a bit tatty but mechanically sound.

Going cheap!!

Another vote for Wonder, just watch the fork mounts which aren't great. The stock wheels are also crap, but that's common at bikes at this price point. Also get tubeless, it's much better than tubes with gravel-sized tyres - and pay Alpkit to do it, or else the tyres they send won't be tubeless ready (which makes sense, as they cost more so it would be mad to spec these on tubed setups). That said, I'd recommend just getting some Hunt gravel wheels which you can also get setup tubeless. 

Re: sizing - I ride a 56 road bike, with a 130 stem. I've got a medium camino with a 110 stem on it, which I've used for a three week, 100km/day bike packing trip without any issues. So a little more upright, but not much! Note this was mainly road and fire road, rather than UK bridleways...

Re: groupset - get hydraulic discs (cables are crap) and 1x. No need for two rings on gravel IMO, and it's less to maintain.  

One more thing - the default bar feels gross if you're used to a road bike, because of the excessive flare. I swapped my for alpkit's road bar (I can't recall the name), which, IMO, still has a pretty big flare and works well on gravel. (Although note, in keeping with my 130 cm road stem, I have 38cm aero bars with basically zero flare on my road bike)

I'm currently very tempted by Sonder Camino GRX1 for my peculiar gearing requirements and tyre clearance.

Gearing - it's available with 12 speed 10-51 cassette, 40T chainring.

I have MTB gearing (36/22 chainset with 11-36 cassette) so my current gravel bike goes lower, equivalent to 31T chainring on 51T cassette but I can get a GRX compatible 34T chainring from AliExpress. Hopefully that's low enough for my weak legs and the gnarly terrain. Pity it's not a direct mount, smaller BCD or yee olde square taper chainset with greater choice than Shimano Asymmetric  

Tyre clearance - 700c x 50mm or 650b x 2.2"

I currently ride 700x40 but fancy wider and tubeless.

Yes, that's a point, my 26er steel rigid mtb didn't feel quite right with 700c wheels due to the higher bottom bracket, plausibly it'd be less of an issue if it was a 650b frame and forks. 

If one uses doubled ended cable ferrules, and steel tubing for any straight cable runs, that's a way of making cable discs as powerful as hydraulic brakes, I have run Avid Full Metal Jacket cable outers (discontinued) to that effect, my brother's bike with Hayes hydraulic brakes wasn't any better braking once I'd fitted my FMJs. The cable-loop/keeper/tidier which Rockshox sell for their dropper seatpost can be used for keeping straight bits of housing in check on suspension forks. With Avid BB7 brakes that is.

Compressionless brake cable outers are supposed to do similar, but I've not used them.

The current price for the AL is around £1550 which if you add tubeless set up makes it more like £1600! I had a ride on a mates Canyon grizl earlier today…the Ali frame with DT Swiss wheels comes in around £1700 if you can find one! 
It’s like buying a car…fix a price but see how high you can flex above it!! 

I’ve been looking for 2nd hand for nearly 2 months now but nothing much suits…pricey decisions coming up I think!!!
 

If you're not in a rush, Sonder seem to have a sale every few months where they knock a couple of hundred quid off Caminos.

There’s that, but also just the stack and reach. 
Most 90’s mountainbikes are designed with (to modern standards) quite a high rise in the stem and bar in mind. This almost invariably makes it necessary to raise the bar quite a bit in order to be comfortable. Not necessarily a problem, but I don’t like the looks of a ton of spacers below my stem… 

Has anyone got any experience of these shock absorbing suspension stems?

Any recommendations, they seem to range in price from 30 odd £s to 100s.

Riding on the cobbles of the Manchester, Bolton & Bury canal is horrendous. 

They work and especially the Redshift one gets good reviews, but given their price point I think you're better off mounting bigger tires (if possible) and making them tubeless. I don't think it should be necessary to mount a suspension stem to ride cobbles. 

Bigger tyres can help.

Frame sizing between different bands is very variable as there are so many geometry variables

First thing is it go to your current road bike set up and assuming you have the saddle set in the correct fore/aft position for your leg relative to the bottom bracket (The 1 fixed point in set up) you can then determine the reach you need to the bars ( again be aware that both reach and drop of different bars vary  so this may be a compromise so measure to where you ride the most which for most people is on the hoods)

This is the position you want to replicate and then decide whether you want slightly less reach/more stack height

In general most people prefer a slightly smaller frame as it is easier to jump on/of with less damage to important body parts but the most important is getting the right reach with a sensible length stem of generall100 to 120mm

Ian (ex cyclocross racer)

Got a alpkit email earlier this week with 15% discount code that works online and in store.

FEELGOOD15 

New bike ordered

That’s well good!! Is that useable by others?? 
I’ve been doing the rounds this week and looked at the Ribble, Dolan and Planet X options and decided on the Sonder….

Pretty sure FEELGOOD15 works for anyone as it worked in the actual shop and when I was looking online.

... except that gravel bikes are not intended to be cyclocross race bikes - they are reserved for special types of crazy humans!

But bike fit is very similar and you have the same points of contact with similar degrees of adjustment

I think this is only true for a very narrow definition of what a gravel bike is. True, many gravel bikes on the market nowadays are really just CX bikes with more tire clearance (and maybe a slightly slacker head tube angle and longer top tube) - hence the term aero gravel or gravel racer. But there's also bikes meant for the long haul or almost-MTB territory. The gravel bike just doesn't exist. And their geometries vary wildly. 

Another email from Alpkit - FEELGOOD15 discount code expires midnight tomorrow Thurs 31 Oct.