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My bike to work voucher for a thousand quids will shortly arrive. I'm getting a new bike for winter and a weeny bit of of-road/towpath stuff, so something CX will be the result. I keep finding myself drawn to immeasurably cool looking steel frames from people like Charge and Genesis - but why? They're pretty heavy compared to alu, they're no cheaper and (I assume) they rust. So what're the benefits?
In reply to andy:
I still ride steel because of the lovely lively springy feel of the ride, carbon and ally just feel dead after it, all you need is a pair of good carbon forks to take out the high frequency buzz.
A few years back I was training to do the RAAM, on long rides I felt better at the end of the ride on a steel frame than anything else. You'll get some people telling you they'll shake your fillings out but these are people who've never ridden a good steel frame.
I still ride steel because of the lovely lively springy feel of the ride, carbon and ally just feel dead after it, all you need is a pair of good carbon forks to take out the high frequency buzz.
A few years back I was training to do the RAAM, on long rides I felt better at the end of the ride on a steel frame than anything else. You'll get some people telling you they'll shake your fillings out but these are people who've never ridden a good steel frame.
In reply to Mooncat: Cheers. I wonder if at my price point i'll get a fillings shaker though!
Been toying with a hub geared jobby, but the weight just seems nuts (26lbs).
Been toying with a hub geared jobby, but the weight just seems nuts (26lbs).
In reply to andy:
See this:
http://www.cotic.co.uk/product/bikes/roadrat/alfine/
You could fit a drop bar.
See this:
http://www.cotic.co.uk/product/bikes/roadrat/alfine/
You could fit a drop bar.
In reply to Mooncat:
Agreed.
I used to have a lovely Reynolds 531 frame on my road bike, until it broke
The warranty frame is a cheap pile of scaffolding in comparison and is awful to ride for any distance!
Sadly, good steel frames seem to be quite expensive in this country.
Agreed.
I used to have a lovely Reynolds 531 frame on my road bike, until it broke
The warranty frame is a cheap pile of scaffolding in comparison and is awful to ride for any distance!
Sadly, good steel frames seem to be quite expensive in this country.
In reply to Horse: Looks groovy - already have this as an option:
http://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/bikes/cross/day-01/day-01-alfine
But it's soooooo heavy!
http://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/bikes/cross/day-01/day-01-alfine
But it's soooooo heavy!
In reply to andy:
I got a genesis steel mt bike and it is a noticably different ride compared to my gary fisher big sur mt bike,more flex which is good and bad
rode the big sur for years before switching to the genesis, it takes time for me to adapt to change I guess so still getting used to it
I do notice the flex butit is a smoother ride altogether if that makes sense ? (could be better forks though)
can you try before you buy ?
I got a genesis steel mt bike and it is a noticably different ride compared to my gary fisher big sur mt bike,more flex which is good and bad
rode the big sur for years before switching to the genesis, it takes time for me to adapt to change I guess so still getting used to it
I do notice the flex butit is a smoother ride altogether if that makes sense ? (could be better forks though)
can you try before you buy ?
In reply to andy:
http://www.tweed.cc/style.html
"Discerning cyclists recognise that bicycle technology reached its pinnacle in the early 1970s and everything since is just marketing. Millions are spent every year on hoodwinking the public with obscure materials which are all very well if you are constructing a craft to convey astronauts to the Moon, but quite out of place on an English country lane. Lugged steel, by contrast, is durable, comfortable and offers an opportunity for the skilled framebuilder to practice his craft. Why spend a king's ransom on the latest titanium confection when any weight advantage will be rendered irrelevant by a cheese-and-pickle sandwich and a thermos of soup?"
http://www.tweed.cc/style.html
"Discerning cyclists recognise that bicycle technology reached its pinnacle in the early 1970s and everything since is just marketing. Millions are spent every year on hoodwinking the public with obscure materials which are all very well if you are constructing a craft to convey astronauts to the Moon, but quite out of place on an English country lane. Lugged steel, by contrast, is durable, comfortable and offers an opportunity for the skilled framebuilder to practice his craft. Why spend a king's ransom on the latest titanium confection when any weight advantage will be rendered irrelevant by a cheese-and-pickle sandwich and a thermos of soup?"
In reply to Pids:
Sadly not - at the moment it's the genesis alfine (low maintenance, potential conversion to fixie, steel frame coolness) vs boardman cx (disc brakes, decent groupset, light weigh, low gearing for winter/touring, potential to do some low key CX races) and (a late runner in this month's C+) the cannondale CAADX 105 (decent groupset, light weight, bits swappable from summer bike, most of the benefits of the Boardman apart from disc brakes).
> (In reply to andy)
>
> can you try before you buy ?
> can you try before you buy ?
Sadly not - at the moment it's the genesis alfine (low maintenance, potential conversion to fixie, steel frame coolness) vs boardman cx (disc brakes, decent groupset, light weigh, low gearing for winter/touring, potential to do some low key CX races) and (a late runner in this month's C+) the cannondale CAADX 105 (decent groupset, light weight, bits swappable from summer bike, most of the benefits of the Boardman apart from disc brakes).
In reply to Ramblin dave:
All good stuff, til you look at some of the photos, which consist of a large number of urban tw*ts!
> (In reply to andy)
>
> http://www.tweed.cc/style.html
>
> "Discerning cyclists recognise that bicycle technology reached its pinnacle in the early 1970s and everything since is just marketing. Millions are spent every year on hoodwinking the public with obscure materials which are all very well if you are constructing a craft to convey astronauts to the Moon, but quite out of place on an English country lane. Lugged steel, by contrast, is durable, comfortable and offers an opportunity for the skilled framebuilder to practice his craft. Why spend a king's ransom on the latest titanium confection when any weight advantage will be rendered irrelevant by a cheese-and-pickle sandwich and a thermos of soup?"
>
> http://www.tweed.cc/style.html
>
> "Discerning cyclists recognise that bicycle technology reached its pinnacle in the early 1970s and everything since is just marketing. Millions are spent every year on hoodwinking the public with obscure materials which are all very well if you are constructing a craft to convey astronauts to the Moon, but quite out of place on an English country lane. Lugged steel, by contrast, is durable, comfortable and offers an opportunity for the skilled framebuilder to practice his craft. Why spend a king's ransom on the latest titanium confection when any weight advantage will be rendered irrelevant by a cheese-and-pickle sandwich and a thermos of soup?"
All good stuff, til you look at some of the photos, which consist of a large number of urban tw*ts!
In reply to andy: Are you restricted to Halfords? I've had a look at some of the custom build ones from Bob Jackson's in Bramley, and they look really nice.
In reply to Liam M:
Sort of. Halford's voucher, they say they can get "anything" but really they can't (so they won't deal with Planet X/On One) - but they seem to be able to get most things (eg Genesis).
> (In reply to andy) Are you restricted to Halfords? I've had a look at some of the custom build ones from Bob Jackson's in Bramley, and they look really nice.
Sort of. Halford's voucher, they say they can get "anything" but really they can't (so they won't deal with Planet X/On One) - but they seem to be able to get most things (eg Genesis).
In reply to andy:
Well, yes...
Your original post has got me looking at Charge and Genesis bikes now and yeah, I really want one too...
> (In reply to Ramblin dave)
> [...]
>
> All good stuff, til you look at some of the photos, which consist of a large number of urban tw*ts!
> [...]
>
> All good stuff, til you look at some of the photos, which consist of a large number of urban tw*ts!
Well, yes...
Your original post has got me looking at Charge and Genesis bikes now and yeah, I really want one too...
In reply to Ramblin dave: I need a bigger shed. I want a steel fixie and a cx bike. But then i'd have to either build a garage or put summer bikes in my mate's cellar.
In reply to andy:
The weight of a bike isn't as important as most people seem to think. What's your current road bike weigh? 19-20lbs So let's say a difference of 7lbs. This is going to be swamped by the mass of bone, fat and err muscle sitting astride the machine. Since as you mentioned in the other thread this bike is for winter commutes rather than out and out racing, I wouldn't see it as a deal breaker.
As for steel, a good frame made from double butted 531 or similar is going to be hard to beat. They have a flex that feels disconcerting at first but helps with the power stroke.
ALC
The weight of a bike isn't as important as most people seem to think. What's your current road bike weigh? 19-20lbs So let's say a difference of 7lbs. This is going to be swamped by the mass of bone, fat and err muscle sitting astride the machine. Since as you mentioned in the other thread this bike is for winter commutes rather than out and out racing, I wouldn't see it as a deal breaker.
As for steel, a good frame made from double butted 531 or similar is going to be hard to beat. They have a flex that feels disconcerting at first but helps with the power stroke.
ALC
In reply to andy:
I have five bikes.
One 531 steel, one 853 steel, one Alu, one carbon and a mtb.
Material less than most people realise, frame build & design is far more important and it's a balance of a dozen things that affect the final feel and ride of a bike. Don't make the mistake of fixating on one thing too much the condition being unless you especially want one thing over all others.
Cheers
Toby
I have five bikes.
One 531 steel, one 853 steel, one Alu, one carbon and a mtb.
Material less than most people realise, frame build & design is far more important and it's a balance of a dozen things that affect the final feel and ride of a bike. Don't make the mistake of fixating on one thing too much the condition being unless you especially want one thing over all others.
Cheers
Toby
In reply to andy: quality steel beats aluminium every time.
In reply to andy:
Friend at work has the Genesis Day One fixie and swears by it. He also has a rather nice Focus for his non-commuter runs, but that's a different story...and budget!
Friend at work has the Genesis Day One fixie and swears by it. He also has a rather nice Focus for his non-commuter runs, but that's a different story...and budget!
In reply to Toby_W: I agree with Toby, I became fixated with getting a steel mt bike because everyone 'raves' about the springy feel etc etc. Not true. I spent £1200 (sale) on a high end (orange) steel hardtail and was very disappointed. It was SO heavy and this affected everything: more tiring to ride, it crashed through terrain as opposed to going over them, It was like riding a in a transit van as opposed to a modern car.
I couldn't tell any difference in 'feel'. For me it was lose lose lose, going for steel. Sold it after a month lost lots of money and got a light aluminium bike that was really fun.
Simon
P.S. The least you should do is get a demo bike to try.
I couldn't tell any difference in 'feel'. For me it was lose lose lose, going for steel. Sold it after a month lost lots of money and got a light aluminium bike that was really fun.
Simon
P.S. The least you should do is get a demo bike to try.
In reply to andy: 26lb isn't THAT heavy. Steel is more flexible and has a more forgiving ride quality. It will last longer than aluminium, and is more easily repairable if you break it. If you want to lightweight, have you thought about trying a singlespeed?
In reply to bullandbladder: One advantage of a bike that weighs 18lbs instead of 26 is that it is easier to lift into, through and over things. I find that is a worthwhile consideration.
In reply to Toby_W: I've just gone the other way, having bought an Al roadbike to replace my ten year old steel one. Went out and did my first 100 km ride today (107 actually!) and it feels fast and stiff and I guess the frame must be lighter than on my old one.
I remember a similar feel when I got a new commuter - going from an old cro-mo no-suspension MTB, to a Al hybrid.
Of course it could all be psychological/ten years of developments and components etc. but I do think it's noticeable.
I remember a similar feel when I got a new commuter - going from an old cro-mo no-suspension MTB, to a Al hybrid.
Of course it could all be psychological/ten years of developments and components etc. but I do think it's noticeable.
In reply to bullandbladder:
I want a single speed as well really, for my commute, but I also need something for club runs etc through the winter, and it's too lumpy round here to ride single speed everywhere.
> (In reply to andy) 26lb isn't THAT heavy. Steel is more flexible and has a more forgiving ride quality. It will last longer than aluminium, and is more easily repairable if you break it. If you want to lightweight, have you thought about trying a singlespeed?
I want a single speed as well really, for my commute, but I also need something for club runs etc through the winter, and it's too lumpy round here to ride single speed everywhere.
In reply to andy:
The Charge Filter Hi gets good reviews in the October issue of Cycling Plus, they liked the power of the disc brakes and the steel frame being stiff enough to not discourage you from getting out of the saddle, and it not being too vague and flexy around corners while on the road, but they didn't like the close fitting mudgaurds, which made a noise on canal paths when grit got caught bewteen them and even narrow tyres.
You might want to hold off buying for the moment though, because next month they're reviewing six steel framed bikes. You can stop steel frames from rusting by spraying frame saver inside them.
If you're not very heavy you could get some 24 hole IRD Cadence rims built onto 36 hole disc hubs by missing out every third spoke hole, and have light weight and quick exeleration for cycling up hills and away from lights, which would help compensate for the weight of the frame a little bit.
Cheers
Tim
The Charge Filter Hi gets good reviews in the October issue of Cycling Plus, they liked the power of the disc brakes and the steel frame being stiff enough to not discourage you from getting out of the saddle, and it not being too vague and flexy around corners while on the road, but they didn't like the close fitting mudgaurds, which made a noise on canal paths when grit got caught bewteen them and even narrow tyres.
You might want to hold off buying for the moment though, because next month they're reviewing six steel framed bikes. You can stop steel frames from rusting by spraying frame saver inside them.
If you're not very heavy you could get some 24 hole IRD Cadence rims built onto 36 hole disc hubs by missing out every third spoke hole, and have light weight and quick exeleration for cycling up hills and away from lights, which would help compensate for the weight of the frame a little bit.
Cheers
Tim
In reply to Timmd: I'm now moving towards the boardman cx and a steel single-speed as well. Just looking for a nice cheap single-speed now!
In reply to andy:
Steel is good compared to carbon fibre, because if you have a crash you don't need to worry about hidden damage like delamination between the layers of carbon fibre, which as I understand it can reduce the strength.
A relative who is an engineer has reacently started looking into carbon fibre, and said that's what he'd be worried about if he crashed a carbon fibre bike.
Steel is more user friemdly in that it usually has more obvious damage like bends or cracks or dents from a crash, and you know more what you're dealing with.
Buy the 2012 Charge Filter Hi. ()
Steel is good compared to carbon fibre, because if you have a crash you don't need to worry about hidden damage like delamination between the layers of carbon fibre, which as I understand it can reduce the strength.
A relative who is an engineer has reacently started looking into carbon fibre, and said that's what he'd be worried about if he crashed a carbon fibre bike.
Steel is more user friemdly in that it usually has more obvious damage like bends or cracks or dents from a crash, and you know more what you're dealing with.
Buy the 2012 Charge Filter Hi. ()
In reply to Timmd: That Charge looks good, actually - not sure if it'd be suitable for my little bit of off road though.
In reply to andy: check out the on one inbred - xt groupset, discs etc 999.
or with an alfine for 850.
or with an alfine for 850.
In reply to Shirebikes: Isn't that a mountain bike? This is 90% a road commuter with a bit of cycle path/towpath.
In reply to andy:
I'm getting one of these: http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/CBOOPOMPETVERSA/on-one-pompetamine-versa-
I'll let you know how I get on.
I'm getting one of these: http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/CBOOPOMPETVERSA/on-one-pompetamine-versa-
I'll let you know how I get on.
In reply to Coire Bog: That looks very similar to the genesis alfine i was looking at but I now think i've discounted because of the weight. Looks dead cool though...
In reply to Flatlander: Too hilly/too weak/too fat!
Boardman CX with disc brakes for club runs, steel fixed for commute I reckon.
Boardman CX with disc brakes for club runs, steel fixed for commute I reckon.
In reply to andy:
Many steel bike enthusiasts will claim something about the special "feel" of their frames. I don´t know, I have a vintage Moser Master steel racing bike and a Patria ranger steel bike for everyday use, mainly because I like the looks of them. Not much of a difference to similar quality aluminium bikes.
Christian
PS: If you are thinking of a gear hub, spend the extra money and go for the Rohloff 14 gear over the Shimano 11 gear version. They just don´t compare in terms of robustness, reliability, and overall quality.
Many steel bike enthusiasts will claim something about the special "feel" of their frames. I don´t know, I have a vintage Moser Master steel racing bike and a Patria ranger steel bike for everyday use, mainly because I like the looks of them. Not much of a difference to similar quality aluminium bikes.
Christian
PS: If you are thinking of a gear hub, spend the extra money and go for the Rohloff 14 gear over the Shimano 11 gear version. They just don´t compare in terms of robustness, reliability, and overall quality.
In reply to cb294: Not a hope in hell of getting a Rohloff for under a grand! To be honest this is a winter bike for club runs and the occasional winter sportive, and possibly a bit of light off roading, so whilst I'm tempted by the low maintenance of a hub the weight might be the killer factor. Specially if I get a single speed which is extra-low maintenance - Evans are doing the Genesis Single Speed for £399 - now anyone wanna buy a Dolan??
In reply to Mooncat:
This is pretty much a word-perfect stereotype, straight from the pages of a fashionable biking magazine. Take either of those "lively, springy, dead, buzzy" frames/forks, use them with a different set of tyres pumped to a different pressure, and you will have a different ride. A more or less cushioned saddle will have similar effects. Sheldon Brown explains it in more depth: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html
> (In reply to andy)
>
> I still ride steel because of the lovely lively springy feel of the ride, carbon and ally just feel dead after it, all you need is a pair of good carbon forks to take out the high frequency buzz.
>
> A few years back I was training to do the RAAM, on long rides I felt better at the end of the ride on a steel frame than anything else. You'll get some people telling you they'll shake your fillings out but these are people who've never ridden a good steel frame.
>
> I still ride steel because of the lovely lively springy feel of the ride, carbon and ally just feel dead after it, all you need is a pair of good carbon forks to take out the high frequency buzz.
>
> A few years back I was training to do the RAAM, on long rides I felt better at the end of the ride on a steel frame than anything else. You'll get some people telling you they'll shake your fillings out but these are people who've never ridden a good steel frame.
This is pretty much a word-perfect stereotype, straight from the pages of a fashionable biking magazine. Take either of those "lively, springy, dead, buzzy" frames/forks, use them with a different set of tyres pumped to a different pressure, and you will have a different ride. A more or less cushioned saddle will have similar effects. Sheldon Brown explains it in more depth: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html
In reply to jalien: I was just about to post exactly the same link.
But you don't consider what would happen if my frame failed miles from Bristol, if I were on my carbon frame I wouldn't be able to get the local blacksmith to fix it and allow me to get home in time for tea and medals.
Also people think I'm really cool when I ride my black steel frame compared to my black carbon frame.
Cheers
Toby
But you don't consider what would happen if my frame failed miles from Bristol, if I were on my carbon frame I wouldn't be able to get the local blacksmith to fix it and allow me to get home in time for tea and medals.
Also people think I'm really cool when I ride my black steel frame compared to my black carbon frame.
Cheers
Toby
In reply to Toby_W: I'm thinking , that as long as I can convince our lass that i got them both on the C2W scheme, that my winter bike selection is likely to be the Boardman CX for club runs and off road (maybe even the odd CX race?) and this:
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/genesis/day-01-cx-2011-cyclo-cross-bike...
for the commute and towpaths with the kids.
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/genesis/day-01-cx-2011-cyclo-cross-bike...
for the commute and towpaths with the kids.
In reply to andy:
I wish I was buying new bikes, you'll love them all whatever you get. Each has it's own charm. Good luck and enjoy.
Cheers
Toby
I wish I was buying new bikes, you'll love them all whatever you get. Each has it's own charm. Good luck and enjoy.
Cheers
Toby
In reply to jalien:
Possibly because it's true?
Take either of those "lively, springy, dead, buzzy" frames/forks, use them with a different set of tyres pumped to a different pressure, and you will have a different ride.
Obviously, I was experimenting with lots of different wheel/tyre combinations but the frame has more affect on ride feel and quality than wheels have.
In the 18 months before my joints fell to bits I covered 23000 miles on my bikes and I'll say again I was far less beaten up on my steel frame (Deda 0HT tubing for the geeks) than any other frame material. Steel forks were a nightmare though don't know how I got through big miles in the old days.
> (In reply to Mooncat)
> [...]
>
>
> This is pretty much a word-perfect stereotype, straight from the pages of a fashionable biking magazine.
> [...]
>
>
> This is pretty much a word-perfect stereotype, straight from the pages of a fashionable biking magazine.
Possibly because it's true?
Take either of those "lively, springy, dead, buzzy" frames/forks, use them with a different set of tyres pumped to a different pressure, and you will have a different ride.
Obviously, I was experimenting with lots of different wheel/tyre combinations but the frame has more affect on ride feel and quality than wheels have.
In the 18 months before my joints fell to bits I covered 23000 miles on my bikes and I'll say again I was far less beaten up on my steel frame (Deda 0HT tubing for the geeks) than any other frame material. Steel forks were a nightmare though don't know how I got through big miles in the old days.
In reply to Mooncat:
Not really. Did you read the link. I have two steel frames and they are totally different as each is designed differently.
If you did a blind test I think a lot of people would confuse some of my frames based on their feel.
Material has an effect but marketing and pr seems to sway us all more, we just can't help it.
Cheers
Toby
Not really. Did you read the link. I have two steel frames and they are totally different as each is designed differently.
If you did a blind test I think a lot of people would confuse some of my frames based on their feel.
Material has an effect but marketing and pr seems to sway us all more, we just can't help it.
Cheers
Toby
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