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Thought we needed a thread to discuss goings on at the Giro.
I haven't managed to stay up late enough to watch the highlights yet, but it sounded like a real shame for team sky yesterday. Movistar had been pulling all day and then the peloton crashed into a stopped police bike and most of sky went down, Thomas lost 5 minutes and Landa lost about half an hour. Yates also lost a big chunk of time. I can see why Movistar didn't slow down and wait for them but In my opinion the race organiser should have neutralised the race - either at the time or retrospectivley, like they did on Ventoux last year when a motorbike caused a crash.
I haven't managed to stay up late enough to watch the highlights yet, but it sounded like a real shame for team sky yesterday. Movistar had been pulling all day and then the peloton crashed into a stopped police bike and most of sky went down, Thomas lost 5 minutes and Landa lost about half an hour. Yates also lost a big chunk of time. I can see why Movistar didn't slow down and wait for them but In my opinion the race organiser should have neutralised the race - either at the time or retrospectivley, like they did on Ventoux last year when a motorbike caused a crash.
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In reply to ablackett:
I assume you're talking about Sundays stage?
What day was the rest day? My TV didn't record Friday or Saturday for some reason.
I'm confused.
But yes you're right movistar should have waited. A lot of the chivalry (if that's the right word) seems to have left the peloton in the last five years imo. It's much more anything goes as long as you win than it used to be, sad really.
I assume you're talking about Sundays stage?
What day was the rest day? My TV didn't record Friday or Saturday for some reason.
I'm confused.
But yes you're right movistar should have waited. A lot of the chivalry (if that's the right word) seems to have left the peloton in the last five years imo. It's much more anything goes as long as you win than it used to be, sad really.
Post edited at 10:52
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In reply to ablackett:
Very different to Ventoux, or even the Yates inflatable incident, where the whole road was blocked and the riders impeded had attacked the main field.
Obviously the motorbike shouldn't have been there, but it was at the side of the road. Last week there was footage of a playboy model almost causing a crash by turning her back on the race. Sagan caught someone's jacket at Flanders.
Crashes happen - sometimes there is a rider error somewhere, sometimes it's an external factor, sometimes there is no apparent reason at all - and very often some of those affected will have been entirely blameless.
As annoying as it is that such things happen (and far more effort is required to avoid them) you can't always legislate for removing the unfairness that ensues. If you neutralise the race at that point then Quintana loses an opportunity to bank some time ahead of the TT tomorrow.
Gutted for Thomas and Yates, but both seem to have terrible luck
Very different to Ventoux, or even the Yates inflatable incident, where the whole road was blocked and the riders impeded had attacked the main field.
Obviously the motorbike shouldn't have been there, but it was at the side of the road. Last week there was footage of a playboy model almost causing a crash by turning her back on the race. Sagan caught someone's jacket at Flanders.
Crashes happen - sometimes there is a rider error somewhere, sometimes it's an external factor, sometimes there is no apparent reason at all - and very often some of those affected will have been entirely blameless.
As annoying as it is that such things happen (and far more effort is required to avoid them) you can't always legislate for removing the unfairness that ensues. If you neutralise the race at that point then Quintana loses an opportunity to bank some time ahead of the TT tomorrow.
Gutted for Thomas and Yates, but both seem to have terrible luck
In reply to ablackett:
I don't think it should have been neutralised - not enough people involved for that. Parking a bike on the white line at the edge of the road so that it obstructs the route is not clever - if it had been street furniture or other obstruction it would have been marked. As motorbike incidents go, it's a relatively minor lapse but with unfortunate consequences. I suppose the race will be shoot out between Pinot, Dumoulin and Quintana now, but it should have been more. Movistar's plan would always have been to put a gap into all contenders on the Blockhaus steepening and they've done that, albeit helped by the crash.
I don't think it should have been neutralised - not enough people involved for that. Parking a bike on the white line at the edge of the road so that it obstructs the route is not clever - if it had been street furniture or other obstruction it would have been marked. As motorbike incidents go, it's a relatively minor lapse but with unfortunate consequences. I suppose the race will be shoot out between Pinot, Dumoulin and Quintana now, but it should have been more. Movistar's plan would always have been to put a gap into all contenders on the Blockhaus steepening and they've done that, albeit helped by the crash.
In reply to ablackett:
A shame it happened but had they slowed it down for them to rejoin so GT could limit his losses on the hill NQ would have lost his chance to take the time he did. It's a bigger shame for Yates but this is why teams put themselves and their leaders on the front when things hot up at critical times in the race so as to avoid events like this. Movistar had been on the front driving it for the last 20km for exactly this reason.
Still such a shame.
Cheers
Toby
A shame it happened but had they slowed it down for them to rejoin so GT could limit his losses on the hill NQ would have lost his chance to take the time he did. It's a bigger shame for Yates but this is why teams put themselves and their leaders on the front when things hot up at critical times in the race so as to avoid events like this. Movistar had been on the front driving it for the last 20km for exactly this reason.
Still such a shame.
Cheers
Toby
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Today is the rest day, ITT tomorrow.
> I assume you're talking about Sundays stage?What day was the rest day? My TV didn't record Friday or Saturday for some reason.I'm confused. But yes you're right movistar should have waited. A lot of the chivalry (if that's the right word) seems to have left the peloton in the last five years imo. It's much more anything goes as long as you win than it used to be, sad really.
Today is the rest day, ITT tomorrow.
In reply to Toby_W:
I'm not sure what you mean by it being a bigger shame for Yates. All of the guys whose race was ruined will have been heartbroken after all the effort they've put into training. In some ways you could argue it's worse for the G, being older he'll have fewer opportunities to win one of the big 3. Good to see him and Yates get back on and finish the stage, must be one of the hardest things to do in sport.
I'm not sure what you mean by it being a bigger shame for Yates. All of the guys whose race was ruined will have been heartbroken after all the effort they've put into training. In some ways you could argue it's worse for the G, being older he'll have fewer opportunities to win one of the big 3. Good to see him and Yates get back on and finish the stage, must be one of the hardest things to do in sport.
In reply to nniff:
I think the crucial difference is that the crash was caused by something which was put in place by the organisers, so the organisers should take some steps to mitigate the effects of the crash by neutralising the stage. Clearly it's not going to happen, but I feel it's not about how many people were involved, but what caused the crash that leads this to be exceptional circumstances.
I think the crucial difference is that the crash was caused by something which was put in place by the organisers, so the organisers should take some steps to mitigate the effects of the crash by neutralising the stage. Clearly it's not going to happen, but I feel it's not about how many people were involved, but what caused the crash that leads this to be exceptional circumstances.
In reply to ablackett:
Looking at a video, possibly a BMC? rider nonchalantly used the parked motorbike to slow/block the lead Sunweb rider leading to the accident?!
Looking at a video, possibly a BMC? rider nonchalantly used the parked motorbike to slow/block the lead Sunweb rider leading to the accident?!
In reply to ablackett:
The sheer number of incidents suggest that it would never end: from Sagan in 2015 and Jalabert in 1994 to the rather less dramatic incident with Kelderman yesterday; the fun would never stop.
> I think the crucial difference is that the crash was caused by something which was put in place by the organisers, so the organisers should take some steps to mitigate the effects of the crash by neutralising the stage. Clearly it's not going to happen, but I feel it's not about how many people were involved, but what caused the crash that leads this to be exceptional circumstances.
The sheer number of incidents suggest that it would never end: from Sagan in 2015 and Jalabert in 1994 to the rather less dramatic incident with Kelderman yesterday; the fun would never stop.
In reply to ablackett:
I think that's a fair point, and indeed it's difficult to make a fair comparison with Froome's Ventoux incident. In that case I think the justification for giving Froome the same time (ie neutralising the stage for him, Porte and whoever the third body was) was that Froome was wearing the yellow jersey and the organisation was complete shambles.
It would have been interesting to see what they would have done had Thomas been wearing the maglia rosa yesterday. If they had neutralised yesterday, Movistar would have been legitimately up in arms, having executed their plan well.
In days gone by, le patron would have eased everyone up and put the race back together as far as injuries permitted. Not really sure who le patron really is, now that Spartacus has retired - for this race, going on world rankings, it's Quintana, with Nibbles, Yates and Thomas in a bunch quite a long way back, which sort of plays to the 'carry on' argument.
> I think the crucial difference is that the crash was caused by something which was put in place by the organisers, so the organisers should take some steps to mitigate the effects of the crash by neutralising the stage. Clearly it's not going to happen, but I feel it's not about how many people were involved, but what caused the crash that leads this to be exceptional circumstances.
I think that's a fair point, and indeed it's difficult to make a fair comparison with Froome's Ventoux incident. In that case I think the justification for giving Froome the same time (ie neutralising the stage for him, Porte and whoever the third body was) was that Froome was wearing the yellow jersey and the organisation was complete shambles.
It would have been interesting to see what they would have done had Thomas been wearing the maglia rosa yesterday. If they had neutralised yesterday, Movistar would have been legitimately up in arms, having executed their plan well.
In days gone by, le patron would have eased everyone up and put the race back together as far as injuries permitted. Not really sure who le patron really is, now that Spartacus has retired - for this race, going on world rankings, it's Quintana, with Nibbles, Yates and Thomas in a bunch quite a long way back, which sort of plays to the 'carry on' argument.
In reply to danm: Only that Yates has a fighting chance against the other gc contenders in the mountains whereas G was looking to limit his losses in the mountains. Yates almost made it back on with a heart rate of 195 which he could have been using to stay in contention and gain gc time rather than a futile effort to catch up. The teams reactions were interesting, Sky, disappointed, to miss out on a chance of doing well, OG furious as they might have had a real chance at a top 3 gc place (I think).
Cheers
Toby
Cheers
Toby
In reply to Toby_W:
Matt White (orica ds) was whinging that Movistar should have known who went down and not gone full gas. Apparently the fact that the break had been caught meant they should have gone slowly until everyone was back up.
Ignoring the fact that Movistar had been going full gas for some time, that was why the break had been caught and the lead group was greatly reduced. The race was on, only 10k to go and they had already done most of the groundwork for the victory - you can't expect them to allow everyone to regroup and get all their domestics back.
Matt White (orica ds) was whinging that Movistar should have known who went down and not gone full gas. Apparently the fact that the break had been caught meant they should have gone slowly until everyone was back up.
Ignoring the fact that Movistar had been going full gas for some time, that was why the break had been caught and the lead group was greatly reduced. The race was on, only 10k to go and they had already done most of the groundwork for the victory - you can't expect them to allow everyone to regroup and get all their domestics back.
In reply to nniff:
That beneficent picture of le patron has long been a fantasy. You may recall how once Cancellara manipulated the peloton into sitting up and forming a procession because the Andy Schleck couldn't ride in the rain.
> In days gone by, le patron would have eased everyone up and put the race back together as far as injuries permitted. Not really sure who le patron really is, now that Spartacus has retired - for this race, going on world rankings, it's Quintana, with Nibbles, Yates and Thomas in a bunch quite a long way back, which sort of plays to the 'carry on' argument.
That beneficent picture of le patron has long been a fantasy. You may recall how once Cancellara manipulated the peloton into sitting up and forming a procession because the Andy Schleck couldn't ride in the rain.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Exactly, like I said in my earlier post NQ would have lost out badly. Bad luck and unfortunate error by the biker.
Cheers
Toby
Exactly, like I said in my earlier post NQ would have lost out badly. Bad luck and unfortunate error by the biker.
Cheers
Toby
In reply to felt:
The patron gets to work: youtube.com/watch?v=pqMqCc1Qy7E&
> But then there was the "tacks man" in 2012.
The patron gets to work: youtube.com/watch?v=pqMqCc1Qy7E&
In reply to Chris the Tall:
>Movistar had been going full gas for some time, that was why the break had been caught and the lead group was greatly reduced. The race was on, only 10k to go and they had already done most of the groundwork for the victory - you can't expect them to allow everyone to regroup and get all their domestics back.
Absolutely, this is not motor racing where the virtual safety car can be introduced for a period without affecting the result.
>Movistar had been going full gas for some time, that was why the break had been caught and the lead group was greatly reduced. The race was on, only 10k to go and they had already done most of the groundwork for the victory - you can't expect them to allow everyone to regroup and get all their domestics back.
Absolutely, this is not motor racing where the virtual safety car can be introduced for a period without affecting the result.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
What about taking off time lost for those involved in the accident (although won't help Landa), as in part due to organisers motorbike and in my view (above), a "professional foul" by another rider?
> you can't expect them to allow everyone to regroup and get all their domestics back.
What about taking off time lost for those involved in the accident (although won't help Landa), as in part due to organisers motorbike and in my view (above), a "professional foul" by another rider?
In reply to Jim Hamilton:
The lead BMC rider definitely moves over to the left but the Sunweb rider barges him back. It doesn't look like it caused the crash which is a few riders back.
> Looking at a video, possibly a BMC? rider nonchalantly used the parked motorbike to slow/block the lead Sunweb rider leading to the accident?!
The lead BMC rider definitely moves over to the left but the Sunweb rider barges him back. It doesn't look like it caused the crash which is a few riders back.
In reply to Jim Hamilton:
I think you're the only person who thinks there might have been some malice in the peleton. The general view is that you can't even call it rider error, although I do think the fact that Movistar were forcing the pace meant riders weren't looking ahead as much as they should have been.
Thomas and Yates were back on new bikes within a couple of minutes - pretty remarkable IMHO - and Yates almost got back to the front group, but lost time later. How on earth would you calculate their time loss ? I suppose you could gave anyone caught in a crash a statutory 5 or 10 minute time-out - including checking for concussion - and then they could continue. But by this point the rest of their time could be positioned at intervals up the road, meaning they could end up with an advantage.
As annoying as it is, it's the nature of sport. We'll never know how Thomas and Yates would have fared without the crash. The authorities should put their energies into avoiding a repetition, rather than trying to come up with rules that could cause even greater unfairness.
I think you're the only person who thinks there might have been some malice in the peleton. The general view is that you can't even call it rider error, although I do think the fact that Movistar were forcing the pace meant riders weren't looking ahead as much as they should have been.
Thomas and Yates were back on new bikes within a couple of minutes - pretty remarkable IMHO - and Yates almost got back to the front group, but lost time later. How on earth would you calculate their time loss ? I suppose you could gave anyone caught in a crash a statutory 5 or 10 minute time-out - including checking for concussion - and then they could continue. But by this point the rest of their time could be positioned at intervals up the road, meaning they could end up with an advantage.
As annoying as it is, it's the nature of sport. We'll never know how Thomas and Yates would have fared without the crash. The authorities should put their energies into avoiding a repetition, rather than trying to come up with rules that could cause even greater unfairness.
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In reply to ablackett:
Meanwhile back to the racing - how much time will Dumoulin take off Quintana today ? Enough for the pink ? Or will Pinot spring a surprise ?
Meanwhile back to the racing - how much time will Dumoulin take off Quintana today ? Enough for the pink ? Or will Pinot spring a surprise ?
Post edited at 11:24
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Robert Millar suggests 3s/km and who am I to argue with that?
> Meanwhile back to the racing - how much time will Dumoulin take off Quintana today ? Enough for the pink ? Or will Pinot spring a surprise ?
Robert Millar suggests 3s/km and who am I to argue with that?
In reply to Mike Highbury:
5s/km at the first checkpoint - over 3 minutes at this rate
> Robert Millar suggests 3s/km and who am I to argue with that?
5s/km at the first checkpoint - over 3 minutes at this rate
As this wasn't a racing incident then the commissar should have slowed the race. But the race was on, so to speak. So a tricky one.
Movistar have a reputation for taking advantage of incidents to their own riders' benefit. There is little love lost in the peloton for them (as a team). Whilst they were beginning to ride hard they weren't going full tilt, so easing slightly would not have affected their game plan. The fact it was Sky who had gone down meant it was never going to happen: Movistar claimed they took advantage in la Vuelta a few years back, Valverde threw a massive hissy fit and stormed off to rant at the Sky bus at the end of the stage; they also claimed that Sky started to race on a flat Dutch stage of the TdF - echelons were forming, Sky accelerated to form the echelons, and in a panic Valverde took a fall.
Whatever has happened has happened. Sad that we can now only guess at how G would have faired (pretty well going off his ITT today). The Giro is wide open and I suddenly think that Dumoulin may have some allies in Sky and Orica over the coming stages (in return for stage wins, possible podium places and a young riders' jersey for Yates). A case of you reap what you sow.
Post edited at 21:23
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In reply to radar:
Cuts both ways, though. The riders in front, and Movistar in particular, might have been more prepared to slow down if another team had been wiped out. I don´t think Sky made themselves many friends in the peleton with their behaviour, in races and outside, and the special treatment they enjoyed over the last few years.
CB
Cuts both ways, though. The riders in front, and Movistar in particular, might have been more prepared to slow down if another team had been wiped out. I don´t think Sky made themselves many friends in the peleton with their behaviour, in races and outside, and the special treatment they enjoyed over the last few years.
CB
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In reply to cb294:
Not sure what special treatment you mean, but apparently Movistar aren't exactly popular either - Quintana's long absences from Europe and Valverde's recent form raising a few eyebrows.
However the main resentment against both Sky and Movistar is that they have this annoying habit of setting a hard pace when most of the peleton would like to enjoy the scenery. It's like footballers complaining that the opposition tried to score a goal in the first half !
> I don´t think Sky made themselves many friends in the peleton with their behaviour, in races and outside, and the special treatment they enjoyed over the last few years.CB
Not sure what special treatment you mean, but apparently Movistar aren't exactly popular either - Quintana's long absences from Europe and Valverde's recent form raising a few eyebrows.
However the main resentment against both Sky and Movistar is that they have this annoying habit of setting a hard pace when most of the peleton would like to enjoy the scenery. It's like footballers complaining that the opposition tried to score a goal in the first half !
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Do you seriously believe any other rider would have had his time corrected after running into a spectator?
CB
Do you seriously believe any other rider would have had his time corrected after running into a spectator?
CB
In reply to Chris the Tall:
His jogging trip on Ventoux last year. For anyone else there would just have been a shrug and the advice to cycle a bit more carefully (I agree that the spectator situation was insane, my issue is that special rules were made up for Froome on the go).
CB
His jogging trip on Ventoux last year. For anyone else there would just have been a shrug and the advice to cycle a bit more carefully (I agree that the spectator situation was insane, my issue is that special rules were made up for Froome on the go).
CB
In reply to cb294:
You could argue that the time correction for froome in the tour was actually very similar to the time alteration made when the 1km to go arch deflated on to Yates when he escaped the front of the peloton also in the tour.
You could argue that the time correction for froome in the tour was actually very similar to the time alteration made when the 1km to go arch deflated on to Yates when he escaped the front of the peloton also in the tour.
In reply to Rich7:
There are existing rules for the last km or barrier sections (which may be longer). The Froome incident was before either,
CB
There are existing rules for the last km or barrier sections (which may be longer). The Froome incident was before either,
CB
In reply to Rich7:
Ah but Yates was covered by the 3km rule. Froome wasn't. ASO/UCI made a decision on 'sporting grounds' because of external influences affecting the race.*
* Which could have been the argument used to slow the peloton down whilst those riders who'd crashed got up etc. The crash was caused by an external influence, it wasn't a racing incident.
The police moto should not have stopped where it did, if it had had to stop it should have been on the right hand side of the road where the peloton would expect to find a stopped rider/moto/team helper/car. (This is what caught Richie Porte out when he needed a wheel at the Giro couple of years ago, he was on the left of the road, he should have been on the right - he'd have got neutral service).
As an aside there are far too many motos in the Giro, there has been far too much drafting going on.
As far Sky not being liked in the pro-peloton... When they first arrived with their wild mission statements, big budgets and not traditional ways of doing things, no they were not particularly liked. But since then they have earned a good reputation, riders are liked and respected, the team has softened a bit and their methods are copied. You won't hear many bad words about them, some jealousy of their budget perhaps but apart from that very little. Despite the Daily Mail's crusade against doping Sky (no media mogul rivalry going on there is there?) , and French media moaning (mainly because of the lack of French success, that is beginning to change) they are a team who are seen as clean in pro-ranks.
Ah but Yates was covered by the 3km rule. Froome wasn't. ASO/UCI made a decision on 'sporting grounds' because of external influences affecting the race.*
* Which could have been the argument used to slow the peloton down whilst those riders who'd crashed got up etc. The crash was caused by an external influence, it wasn't a racing incident.
The police moto should not have stopped where it did, if it had had to stop it should have been on the right hand side of the road where the peloton would expect to find a stopped rider/moto/team helper/car. (This is what caught Richie Porte out when he needed a wheel at the Giro couple of years ago, he was on the left of the road, he should have been on the right - he'd have got neutral service).
As an aside there are far too many motos in the Giro, there has been far too much drafting going on.
As far Sky not being liked in the pro-peloton... When they first arrived with their wild mission statements, big budgets and not traditional ways of doing things, no they were not particularly liked. But since then they have earned a good reputation, riders are liked and respected, the team has softened a bit and their methods are copied. You won't hear many bad words about them, some jealousy of their budget perhaps but apart from that very little. Despite the Daily Mail's crusade against doping Sky (no media mogul rivalry going on there is there?) , and French media moaning (mainly because of the lack of French success, that is beginning to change) they are a team who are seen as clean in pro-ranks.
In reply to cb294:
Oh right, you mean the incident where Porte, Froome and Mollema crashed into a moto as a result of a blocked road. Sorry, but it wasn't obvious from the way you described it.
No, I don't think Froome and Porte were given special treatment, and had the result stood you would have given biased fans the message that blocking a road was a fair tactic.
And you could of course argue that Quintana was given special treatment that day - he wasn't DQed for taking a tow on a moto as he passed the incident. In reality the unusual circumstances - change of finish due to high wind, but no time to put the barriers into position - meant the organisers had to try and sort it out somehow. I still think they took the least worst solution.
Oh right, you mean the incident where Porte, Froome and Mollema crashed into a moto as a result of a blocked road. Sorry, but it wasn't obvious from the way you described it.
No, I don't think Froome and Porte were given special treatment, and had the result stood you would have given biased fans the message that blocking a road was a fair tactic.
And you could of course argue that Quintana was given special treatment that day - he wasn't DQed for taking a tow on a moto as he passed the incident. In reality the unusual circumstances - change of finish due to high wind, but no time to put the barriers into position - meant the organisers had to try and sort it out somehow. I still think they took the least worst solution.
2
In reply to cb294:
The yellow jersey and maybe the contenders gets a bit of extra protection. They don't want the GC decided by external events.
A collapsed inflatable or the motorbikes on Ventoux is a blockage that prevents normal racing.
A stationary something or somebody at the side of the road is normal and does not prevent racing .
99.99% of the time they race past, sometimes they crash.
There have to be special rules made up on the go during the race when a bus gets stuck under a sign, tacks spread an the road (I think Wigginton neutralised that) or road blocked by motorbikes and inflatables.
Why is instant blockage ahead (motorbikes on ventoux) so different to instant blockage ahead (inflatable)?
The yellow jersey and maybe the contenders gets a bit of extra protection. They don't want the GC decided by external events.
A collapsed inflatable or the motorbikes on Ventoux is a blockage that prevents normal racing.
A stationary something or somebody at the side of the road is normal and does not prevent racing .
99.99% of the time they race past, sometimes they crash.
There have to be special rules made up on the go during the race when a bus gets stuck under a sign, tacks spread an the road (I think Wigginton neutralised that) or road blocked by motorbikes and inflatables.
Why is instant blockage ahead (motorbikes on ventoux) so different to instant blockage ahead (inflatable)?
In reply to cb294:
Incorrect again - there should have been barriers, but the change of finish (and the difficulty of moving barriers in the wind) prevented this
> There are existing rules for the last km or barrier sections (which may be longer). The Froome incident was before either,CB
Incorrect again - there should have been barriers, but the change of finish (and the difficulty of moving barriers in the wind) prevented this
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Fair enough point, I had not thought of this. Still, I believe any other group of three riders would have been told to suck it up.
CB
> ... and had the result stood you would have given biased fans the message that blocking a road was a fair tactic.
Fair enough point, I had not thought of this. Still, I believe any other group of three riders would have been told to suck it up.
CB
In reply to Chris the Tall:
I don´ t believe that changing the finish justifies bending the rules in this way. Whether times are neutralized after an incident or not normally depends on the distance to the finish and the type of the etape, and that should be applied consistently.
CB
I don´ t believe that changing the finish justifies bending the rules in this way. Whether times are neutralized after an incident or not normally depends on the distance to the finish and the type of the etape, and that should be applied consistently.
CB
In reply to cb294:
You sound like one of those whinging football managers who call for "common sense" if the rules are applied to the letter, or "consistency" if they are not.
If the rules hadn't been "bent" the stage would have been cancelled as the final section was not properly prepared
You sound like one of those whinging football managers who call for "common sense" if the rules are applied to the letter, or "consistency" if they are not.
If the rules hadn't been "bent" the stage would have been cancelled as the final section was not properly prepared
In reply to cb294:
Because of who they were or because of where they were in GC ?
> Fair enough point, I had not thought of this. Still, I believe any other group of three riders would have been told to suck it up.
Because of who they were or because of where they were in GC ?
In reply to Chris the Tall:
We went through this at the time, no need to warm it up again. Better let´ s just agree to disagree. I will stand by my claim that Froome got special treatment, and you will claim there is nothing to see.
CB
We went through this at the time, no need to warm it up again. Better let´ s just agree to disagree. I will stand by my claim that Froome got special treatment, and you will claim there is nothing to see.
CB
In reply to cb294:
And since you also claim he crashed "after running into a spectator" then I agree there's not much point in further discussion
Cracking stage today - well worth watching the highlights if you can get them
> I will stand by my claim that Froome got special treatment
And since you also claim he crashed "after running into a spectator" then I agree there's not much point in further discussion
Cracking stage today - well worth watching the highlights if you can get them
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Yes I remembered that wrong, the group ran into a camera motorcycle that stopped due to spectators on the road. Makes no difference, though, everybody else would have been told bad luck.
CB
Yes I remembered that wrong, the group ran into a camera motorcycle that stopped due to spectators on the road. Makes no difference, though, everybody else would have been told bad luck.
CB
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Saw bits of it and the finish on the live stream, cracking stage indeed!
CB
Saw bits of it and the finish on the live stream, cracking stage indeed!
CB
In reply to the sheep:
That's such a shame as his form was good....really thought he'd make the GC podium.
Good move though to recover for the Tour...
That's such a shame as his form was good....really thought he'd make the GC podium.
Good move though to recover for the Tour...
In reply to the sheep:
Yep, lost time yesterday as well as the day before.
Incredible thing is that it seems he rode Blockhaus quicker the Quintana. Eurosport timed that it was over 5 minutes before he got going after the crash. Of course he may have benefited from a little drafting, and maybe Movistar did indeed slacken the pace off a little, but combined with his TT it's an indication that he could have been a contender.
The problem for Thomas is that he is undoubtedly a crash magnet, and the chances of him getting through a 3 week race without hitting the tarmac are always a bit slim, so maybe we will never know.
Whilst I don't question the wisdom of withdrawing him, I wonder if he might be more than a super-domestique at the the tour. Froome's form has been very poor so far this season, which may or may not be indicative of a problem. Thomas could be Plan B. Assuming Froome does Daphine, will be interesting to see if Thomas does Suisse.
Yep, lost time yesterday as well as the day before.
Incredible thing is that it seems he rode Blockhaus quicker the Quintana. Eurosport timed that it was over 5 minutes before he got going after the crash. Of course he may have benefited from a little drafting, and maybe Movistar did indeed slacken the pace off a little, but combined with his TT it's an indication that he could have been a contender.
The problem for Thomas is that he is undoubtedly a crash magnet, and the chances of him getting through a 3 week race without hitting the tarmac are always a bit slim, so maybe we will never know.
Whilst I don't question the wisdom of withdrawing him, I wonder if he might be more than a super-domestique at the the tour. Froome's form has been very poor so far this season, which may or may not be indicative of a problem. Thomas could be Plan B. Assuming Froome does Daphine, will be interesting to see if Thomas does Suisse.
In reply to the sheep:
Cutting his losses in preparation for the tour, I guess. Put down one last marker in the ITT, then off to recovery.
In fact, I was not really sure he was ever riding with the Giro podium in mind, but certainly not after the crash.
CB
Cutting his losses in preparation for the tour, I guess. Put down one last marker in the ITT, then off to recovery.
In fact, I was not really sure he was ever riding with the Giro podium in mind, but certainly not after the crash.
CB
In reply to cb294:
Disagree (obviously). Grand tour options are pretty limited at Sky, so he'd want to make the most of this opportunity. After all, he wouldn't forgo the classics - where he was pretty strong - just to be Froome's domestique. And with Landa and Henao also in the mix, the best he can hope for is another join lead at next years Giro, but first it's back to the ranks to earn another go.
Apparently several teams are keen to sign him. but my guess is that he'd like to stay at Sky. He might get more of a chance if Froome leaves, which would be less of a surprise.
> I was not really sure he was ever riding with the Giro podium in mind, but certainly not after the crash. CB
Disagree (obviously). Grand tour options are pretty limited at Sky, so he'd want to make the most of this opportunity. After all, he wouldn't forgo the classics - where he was pretty strong - just to be Froome's domestique. And with Landa and Henao also in the mix, the best he can hope for is another join lead at next years Giro, but first it's back to the ranks to earn another go.
Apparently several teams are keen to sign him. but my guess is that he'd like to stay at Sky. He might get more of a chance if Froome leaves, which would be less of a surprise.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
And I hear that Sagan is doing Dallas.
> Assuming Froome does Daphine, will be interesting to see if Thomas does Suisse.
And I hear that Sagan is doing Dallas.
1
In reply to ablackett:
Great shame about G Thomas, but what we have left is all set to be a proper race:
Up front with a good 2 minute lead you have Dumoulin, the fastest time trialler in the peloton, who also put in good performance on the Blockhaus.
Following him, we have a huddle of Quintana, Pinot, Nibbles and Mollema - all on 2 minutes something from Dumoulin, with a block of mountainous days to come.
So far, so normal. But the last day is a 30 km time trial, which could give Dumoulin another three minutes. So the 2+ minute gap becomes a virtual 5 minute gap and we've got a race
Sunweb have got to defend like fury - the GC contenders have got to put a lot of time into Dumoulin and jostle amongst themselves. No shortage of wheels for Dumoulin to hang onto - but it should be a rare old battle.
Place your bets!
PS. Today looks like the last day for the Sprinters. Gavira has got to go to the end to pick up his jersey, but most of the other sprinters will probably go home. Gavira must be dreading fighting for the cut-offs over the next week of mountains with the leading five going mental at the front. Rather him than me.
Great shame about G Thomas, but what we have left is all set to be a proper race:
Up front with a good 2 minute lead you have Dumoulin, the fastest time trialler in the peloton, who also put in good performance on the Blockhaus.
Following him, we have a huddle of Quintana, Pinot, Nibbles and Mollema - all on 2 minutes something from Dumoulin, with a block of mountainous days to come.
So far, so normal. But the last day is a 30 km time trial, which could give Dumoulin another three minutes. So the 2+ minute gap becomes a virtual 5 minute gap and we've got a race
Sunweb have got to defend like fury - the GC contenders have got to put a lot of time into Dumoulin and jostle amongst themselves. No shortage of wheels for Dumoulin to hang onto - but it should be a rare old battle.
Place your bets!
PS. Today looks like the last day for the Sprinters. Gavira has got to go to the end to pick up his jersey, but most of the other sprinters will probably go home. Gavira must be dreading fighting for the cut-offs over the next week of mountains with the leading five going mental at the front. Rather him than me.
Post edited at 15:00
In reply to nniff:
Gav is the new Cav ! Amazing turn of speed. Thought for a minute his lead-out man might be in trouble for blocking Ewan, but from above it looks like he merely held his line as Ewan tried to weave across into the gap he'd left for FG.
8 stages to go, 1 TT, 4 summit finishes and that doesn't include the Stelvio/Bormio stage on Tuesday. TD can afford to lose 5 minutes, but there's plenty of places to lose time. Of course it's possible that NQ will wait and wait and then leave it too late
Gav is the new Cav ! Amazing turn of speed. Thought for a minute his lead-out man might be in trouble for blocking Ewan, but from above it looks like he merely held his line as Ewan tried to weave across into the gap he'd left for FG.
8 stages to go, 1 TT, 4 summit finishes and that doesn't include the Stelvio/Bormio stage on Tuesday. TD can afford to lose 5 minutes, but there's plenty of places to lose time. Of course it's possible that NQ will wait and wait and then leave it too late
In reply to ablackett:
It's not thrilling me so far this Giro. I suppose the fireworks should start tomorrow, hope it lives up to billing.
It's not thrilling me so far this Giro. I suppose the fireworks should start tomorrow, hope it lives up to billing.
In reply to nniff:
Just for the record it's Gaviria and he's a legend already here in Colombia where I live. The first Real Colombian sprinter and has already beaten the Colombian record for most stages in a GT.
Young, good-looking, personable and possessed with an explosive power, he looks to be the future.
Just for the record it's Gaviria and he's a legend already here in Colombia where I live. The first Real Colombian sprinter and has already beaten the Colombian record for most stages in a GT.
Young, good-looking, personable and possessed with an explosive power, he looks to be the future.
In reply to DaveHK:
Boiling up nicely now. Not entirely unexpected win for TD, but the margin and the fact that NQ cracked slightly was a bit of a surprise. The fact it was a single, none too steep climb meant it suited a TTer. But I saw a comment along the lines of we've had 4 climbs so far, we've got 15 to go. I still think TD will lose several minutes in the Dolomites
> It's not thrilling me so far this Giro. I suppose the fireworks should start tomorrow, hope it lives up to billing.
Boiling up nicely now. Not entirely unexpected win for TD, but the margin and the fact that NQ cracked slightly was a bit of a surprise. The fact it was a single, none too steep climb meant it suited a TTer. But I saw a comment along the lines of we've had 4 climbs so far, we've got 15 to go. I still think TD will lose several minutes in the Dolomites
In reply to ablackett:
I can't help but notice that a startling percentage of the advert breaks on the 10pm highlights include an advert for a product to help the ladies cope with the issue of vaginal dryness.
I can't speak for the ladies among us, but when I go out for a ride, lack of moisture in the genital area is the least of my problems.....
I can't help but notice that a startling percentage of the advert breaks on the 10pm highlights include an advert for a product to help the ladies cope with the issue of vaginal dryness.
I can't speak for the ladies among us, but when I go out for a ride, lack of moisture in the genital area is the least of my problems.....
In reply to ablackett:
Great finish today. I'd like to see more of that sort of racing in grand tours instead of the predictable, bunch sprint, long break or mountain stage format.
Great finish today. I'd like to see more of that sort of racing in grand tours instead of the predictable, bunch sprint, long break or mountain stage format.
In reply to DaveHK:
Shame about the unexpected call of nature, but, when you've got to go you've got to go!!
Not very sporting of the other contenders though.
Shame about the unexpected call of nature, but, when you've got to go you've got to go!!
Not very sporting of the other contenders though.
In reply to DaveHK:
Clearly having a strong stomach is a necessity for a cyclist, or indeed for reading this extract
https://twitter.com/richardmoore73/status/867021716719108098
I doubt if Dumoulin will be so generous if NQ crashes again, but it did seem to me that they did delay the onset of the real attacking for a good 10 mins after TD stopped
Clearly having a strong stomach is a necessity for a cyclist, or indeed for reading this extract
https://twitter.com/richardmoore73/status/867021716719108098
I doubt if Dumoulin will be so generous if NQ crashes again, but it did seem to me that they did delay the onset of the real attacking for a good 10 mins after TD stopped
2
In reply to Chris the Tall:
I think they sat up for a bit but they couldn't let the group up the road get away.
I think they sat up for a bit but they couldn't let the group up the road get away.
1
In reply to balmybaldwin:
Zakarin (katusha) was the first to attack, but was called back by his DS.
TD has put out a tweet which seems to acknowledge that it was too late in the stage for the group to stop riding
Zakarin (katusha) was the first to attack, but was called back by his DS.
TD has put out a tweet which seems to acknowledge that it was too late in the stage for the group to stop riding
In reply to ablackett:
Did Nibbles look rather sheepish when he stood on the podium?
Mind you, in the late 80's there was the Tour de France when Greg Lemond had the runs and was covered in the stuff but went on to win. Not pleasant to follow, I gather
Did Nibbles look rather sheepish when he stood on the podium?
Mind you, in the late 80's there was the Tour de France when Greg Lemond had the runs and was covered in the stuff but went on to win. Not pleasant to follow, I gather
In reply to ablackett:
Stunning scenery on today's stage - spent a fair bit of time looking out for the bits I've climbed, skiied or stayed at.
TD seems to be fully recovered from his tummy troubles - seemed to handle the rather insipid attacks from NQ and VN. Nice tactic to make them worry about their podium places !
Regardless of the circumstances, I think he'd have been quite happy to have only lost 2 mins on these two crucial stages. The next two aren't easy, but shouldn't be anywhere near as hard and unless he loses at least another 2 minutes he'll take it in the TT.
Battle for the white looks closer - Yates needs more time as Jungles is better in the TT.
Stunning scenery on today's stage - spent a fair bit of time looking out for the bits I've climbed, skiied or stayed at.
TD seems to be fully recovered from his tummy troubles - seemed to handle the rather insipid attacks from NQ and VN. Nice tactic to make them worry about their podium places !
Regardless of the circumstances, I think he'd have been quite happy to have only lost 2 mins on these two crucial stages. The next two aren't easy, but shouldn't be anywhere near as hard and unless he loses at least another 2 minutes he'll take it in the TT.
Battle for the white looks closer - Yates needs more time as Jungles is better in the TT.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Landa pipped to the line again! Well done to TJ. A well deserved stage win for him.
The scenery was magnificent though wasn't it!!
Landa pipped to the line again! Well done to TJ. A well deserved stage win for him.
The scenery was magnificent though wasn't it!!
In reply to Gone for good:
Well done Landa. A superb win from the front. What a climbing machine he is.
Domoulin stiil in the race, tomorrow will be interesting to see if Quintana can build on his lead before the final TT on Sunday.
Exciting stuff.
Well done Landa. A superb win from the front. What a climbing machine he is.
Domoulin stiil in the race, tomorrow will be interesting to see if Quintana can build on his lead before the final TT on Sunday.
Exciting stuff.
In reply to Gone for good:
If TD loses another minute today then we're in 1989 territory tomorrow
Actually it's a lot more open than that, 5 riders separated by little over a minute and given the nature of these last 5 days the TT is far from predictable. Neither NQ or VN look in good shape, so could Pinot sneak through on the blindside.
The 100th Giro may have been a bit boring for the first week or so, but it's building up to a cliffhanger finish
If TD loses another minute today then we're in 1989 territory tomorrow
Actually it's a lot more open than that, 5 riders separated by little over a minute and given the nature of these last 5 days the TT is far from predictable. Neither NQ or VN look in good shape, so could Pinot sneak through on the blindside.
The 100th Giro may have been a bit boring for the first week or so, but it's building up to a cliffhanger finish
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Cliffhanger is right. 1 minute 15 seconds cover the top 5 places.
I'm doing a 100 miler Sportive tomorrow. Oh to be able to climb the hills like these guys!!!
Cliffhanger is right. 1 minute 15 seconds cover the top 5 places.
I'm doing a 100 miler Sportive tomorrow. Oh to be able to climb the hills like these guys!!!
In reply to Yanis Nayu:
It was exciting. Domoulin has the heart of a lion.
Second. I did the Lincoln Arrow a few weeks ago.
This one will be a bit bumpier. It's in the Cotswolds so lots of sharp climbs.
> Ooh that was exciting!First century?
It was exciting. Domoulin has the heart of a lion.
Second. I did the Lincoln Arrow a few weeks ago.
This one will be a bit bumpier. It's in the Cotswolds so lots of sharp climbs.
In reply to Gone for good:
I rode a lot of that route this morning. I descended a hill into Winchcombe which you will climb - it looks brutal! I've never climbed it; I'm always going the other way, but last time i descended it there were lots of people riding up - i say riding but half were walking. I'll have to have a crack at it soon.
I rode a lot of that route this morning. I descended a hill into Winchcombe which you will climb - it looks brutal! I've never climbed it; I'm always going the other way, but last time i descended it there were lots of people riding up - i say riding but half were walking. I'll have to have a crack at it soon.
In reply to Yanis Nayu:
23% apparently. A lot steeper than anything I've done before now.
Where are you based? Near Cheltenham?
23% apparently. A lot steeper than anything I've done before now.
Where are you based? Near Cheltenham?
1
In reply to Gone for good:
Good luck with the century - chances are that I'll be out on the MTB so I'll be ignoring news until I can catch up in the evening
6 riders within 90 secs - ok you can be pretty sure that pozzi will go backwards but the podium could be almost any combination of the top 5. Amazing that a guy off the podium at the start of the final stage is the favourite.
Hope Pinot's late form continues-can't see him beating TD, but I much prefer him to the other 3
Good luck with the century - chances are that I'll be out on the MTB so I'll be ignoring news until I can catch up in the evening
6 riders within 90 secs - ok you can be pretty sure that pozzi will go backwards but the podium could be almost any combination of the top 5. Amazing that a guy off the podium at the start of the final stage is the favourite.
Hope Pinot's late form continues-can't see him beating TD, but I much prefer him to the other 3
1
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Dumoulin, Pinot, Quintana for me. I can't take to Nibali.
I'd like to see Pinot go well in Le Tour.
Wife's birthday today, so am likely to miss it too.
Dumoulin, Pinot, Quintana for me. I can't take to Nibali.
I'd like to see Pinot go well in Le Tour.
Wife's birthday today, so am likely to miss it too.
In reply to Yanis Nayu:
You were right. That was a hard hill as were all of them between Winchombe and Stow.
Can't believe highlights aren't on until 10 o'clock tonight.
You were right. That was a hard hill as were all of them between Winchombe and Stow.
Can't believe highlights aren't on until 10 o'clock tonight.
In reply to Gone for good:
Why? That's the time they've been on every night.
> Can't believe highlights aren't on until 10 o'clock tonight.
Why? That's the time they've been on every night.
In reply to Chris Harris:
They've been on at 8 o clock also....bloody tennis getting in the way!
Great result for TD and an interesting Tour du France in 2018....let's wait and see what type of TT's will be set!
Really glad Quintana or Nibs didn't win and looking forward to Froome hitting some form in July!
They've been on at 8 o clock also....bloody tennis getting in the way!
Great result for TD and an interesting Tour du France in 2018....let's wait and see what type of TT's will be set!
Really glad Quintana or Nibs didn't win and looking forward to Froome hitting some form in July!
1
In reply to Gone for good:
Fair play! I was going to have a media black out until 8pm then saw the highlights weren't on until 10, so cracked and googled the results. I'm pleased for Dumoulin.
Fair play! I was going to have a media black out until 8pm then saw the highlights weren't on until 10, so cracked and googled the results. I'm pleased for Dumoulin.
2
In reply to Yanis Nayu:
Brilliant Giro. Especially the last Week.
Very pleased to see TD win. He deserved it after his heroic efforts holding on in the mountains.
Brilliant Giro. Especially the last Week.
Very pleased to see TD win. He deserved it after his heroic efforts holding on in the mountains.
1
In reply to Gone for good:
Agree entirely. Bit more than 8 seconds and modern tech meant that the result wasn't really in doubt once we had the first checks, but still been an excellent race. Yes there were quite a few dull stages earlier on, but that was down to the aim of using the whole country and paying homage to particular significant places.
Pity that Yates couldn't hold on to white, but to be in the top ten after that crash is a very impressive achievement
Roll on the tour-lets hope it's as good
Agree entirely. Bit more than 8 seconds and modern tech meant that the result wasn't really in doubt once we had the first checks, but still been an excellent race. Yes there were quite a few dull stages earlier on, but that was down to the aim of using the whole country and paying homage to particular significant places.
Pity that Yates couldn't hold on to white, but to be in the top ten after that crash is a very impressive achievement
Roll on the tour-lets hope it's as good
1
In reply to Gone for good:
I completely agree.
TD was a very deserved winner and he always comes across as a really nice guy his determination was infectious and I think we'll see him pick off a few more GC wins in the coming years.
It's a shame Pinot missed out on the podium as I'd rather see him up there than the wheel sucker NQ.
Nibali always gives his all and for me he deserved to be on the podium just for that suicidal looking bunny hop on the descent of the Bormio
The revelation of this tour has to be Fernando Gaviria who is an amazing new sprint talent who reminds me of the Cav of old. Its a shame he won't be riding the Tour this year but I'm sure come 2018 we'll see some fireworks from this young sprinter
> Brilliant Giro. Especially the last Week. Very pleased to see TD win. He deserved it after his heroic efforts holding on in the mountains.
I completely agree.
TD was a very deserved winner and he always comes across as a really nice guy his determination was infectious and I think we'll see him pick off a few more GC wins in the coming years.
It's a shame Pinot missed out on the podium as I'd rather see him up there than the wheel sucker NQ.
Nibali always gives his all and for me he deserved to be on the podium just for that suicidal looking bunny hop on the descent of the Bormio
The revelation of this tour has to be Fernando Gaviria who is an amazing new sprint talent who reminds me of the Cav of old. Its a shame he won't be riding the Tour this year but I'm sure come 2018 we'll see some fireworks from this young sprinter
1
In reply to ablackett:
For anyone suffering Giro withdrawal symptoms I can highly recommend this
https://thecyclingpodcast.com/podcast/special-no-5-the-1987-giro-according-...
OK it is behind the paywall and I'm not saying it's worth a tenner, but both the free podcasts and specials are excellent and well worth supporting.
Two snippets from Roche are very amusing. First, on the infamous Sappada stage "I didn’t attack Visentini,” he argues. “I just rode down the hill faster than him.”. And later "Visentini didn’t crash,” he suggests. “He fell off.”
Like Hinault and Lemond at the tour, it's a reminder that cycling's unwritten rules have always been subject to a certain interpretation.
For anyone suffering Giro withdrawal symptoms I can highly recommend this
https://thecyclingpodcast.com/podcast/special-no-5-the-1987-giro-according-...
OK it is behind the paywall and I'm not saying it's worth a tenner, but both the free podcasts and specials are excellent and well worth supporting.
Two snippets from Roche are very amusing. First, on the infamous Sappada stage "I didn’t attack Visentini,” he argues. “I just rode down the hill faster than him.”. And later "Visentini didn’t crash,” he suggests. “He fell off.”
Like Hinault and Lemond at the tour, it's a reminder that cycling's unwritten rules have always been subject to a certain interpretation.
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