UKC

Hi everyone,

Does projecting make you a better climber?

Thanks for your tips & your time?

Yes. Projecting gives you an intimate knowledge of a piece of rock, how each hold feels, how to move from position to position. Having trained your body to apply this knowledge to that piece of rock, you find yourself extrapolating from that knowledge when faced with similar circumstances on an onsight.

Absolutely. Unless you already do too much of it, like I do... Then you should probably do more onsighting 😁

No, it just means you blame someone else for you failing to climb something...

That makes a lot of sense. Is it true you get weaker over time and move repetition could bring injury?

When I was climbing regularly I found that working on projects improved my strength and endurance (you know the moves that are coming, so commit a little bit harder and hang on just that little bit longer). I always mixed it with on-sight and mileage stuff too - that kept up the interest levels.

You might get weaker at some things and stronger at others. Obviously specific to the project. Although overall I don't tend to get noticeable any stronger.

I find repetition is one of biggest contributors to injury. Spending lots of time on one really hard project is a risk. I tend to mitigate it more these days by not having too many goes and doing easier routes for variety.

It's hard to answer such a vague question. Will it make you better at redpointing? Obviously it will. Will it make you better at onsighting trad? Compared to sitting on the couch it will, compared to other strategies I'm not sure.

The one thing it definitely helped me with was trying hard whilst remaining patient and focused, and without thinking about falling (when it's safe to switch off). It's a very hard combination to master and it's a very gradual learning process.

Sorry about vagueness I’m bouldering and would like to get better. Currently working traverses. I think that any tips would be helpful though. 
 

I agree with your point about trying hard. I’ve found that being super motivated and knowing the problem inside out helps you to be Super determined. 

I reckon it does yes. You get better by pulling harder than you've pulled before but in order to be able to climb close to your physical maximum you need to know the rock inside out and get the most out of every hold and position to link hard moves together.

No matter how good at route reading you are, if you're climbing onsight you need to have so much more left in the tank to be able to suss things out on the fly and deal with mistakes meaning you have to be doing moves significantly easier than you could do if you eliminated all uncertainty.

No, but it does mean your second can hear what you want them to do.  

This last year we picked out 2 routes that were bold for us and spent a couple of sessions working them until they went comfortably.  We did find that it helped us push into bolder routes onsight as the moves didn't seem so desperate. It has improved our nerve slightly.

Not sure, but it does make you a better person

The main thing is to enjoy the process. Working hard stuff where the little details really matter can be very rewarding, if you enjoy that sort of thing.

Don't set yourself any time limits or expectations at the start. A friend once said to me, "if I wasn't struggling on this, I'd just be struggling on something else". No need to be in a rush to finish. 

Go through the moves in your head but make sure you clear your mind for a minute before you start climbing. Otherwise you tend to fall off the easy bit because you're thinking about the crux before you even get there. 

Climb for yourself and don't worry about what anybody else is doing.

All good ideas. I try and figure out what I did right (Selfie video helps) and note it on a problem note on the  phone. I reread the note before the next session. I put 3 minutes on the stopwatch too to keep the pump away but I will try extra time to clear the head and relax. 
 
Not rushing is a good point. I do find myself trying to finish it too soon when I should be practicing the end and messing up. Patience works. 
 

Thanks 1pS. 

If you are trying a problem that is hard for you and which is steep/powerful, a three minute rest will often not be enough. I sometimes go by a rule of 2 minutes per hard move, but it's very approximate. Certainly for hard boulder traverses I would often rest 20-30 minutes between 'redpoint' attempts, like for a short sport route. Obviously less while you are learning the moves and not pulling too hard in a sustained manner to begin with.

To answer the original question, it will help you get much better at bouldering and sport climbing. If you enjoy it, you will be inspired to climb harder routes and gradually become a stronger climbing. However, if you do it for a long time without mixing things up, it definitely shafts your onsight trad capability - this happened to me. Over a 3 year period in which my sport and bouldering grades went from 7c and 7A+ to 8a and 7C, my trad grade dropped from E3 to E1. If you are just a boulderer them obviously this doesn't matter. (I have never had any interest in onsight sport or bouldering.)

Si

Oh yes projecting as in projecting what you do wrong on other people - good one.  I meant projecting climbs.  As its funny though its probably the best reply

Yes that makes alot of sense too.  I will try the 2 minute rule and resting a bit longer between attempts.

I find myself going for a walk or something to get away from the temptation to climb again when trying to do it proper and thats worked.  I suppose once its wired you dont need the practice anymore and you wierdly stay warm after a good try.

Do you think its worth trying from the finish and working backwards or just try and get everything so well known its intuitive?

I suppose there's a risk that you will miss an easier way if you don't try lots of different way.

My mate Sam also said to try the finish when your tired so you know how it feels on the day which I suppose is obvious.

Billy

All these things are valid ideas. In my experience they will only be necessary on boulder traverses when right at your limit. Be careful trying stuff tired, it's easy to convince yourself that a particular sequence is too hard for you, when, in fact, it isn't. You might be surprised how much strength you retain at the end of a powerful traverse if you know it really well and climb it really fast. 

The most important thing when projecting traverses is to find a sequence that you can do all the moves on and then dial all the moves in really well so you move really fast with all the right body positions. But don't be afraid to try out minor beta changes from other climbers even if you already think you have it right. 

The dark art of projecting is looking for small improvements so that you come away with progress in a session - which is what it’s really all about. 

Some tips:

Resting has been mentioned and even 45 minute rests between goes is not unheard of even for short problems. You might have to warm up again particularly for finger recruitment. Find a suitable hold and pull hard on it a few times alternating arms without feet leaving the ground.

Conditions. If you can go when the crag is forecast to be shady, has low humidity and an on crag breeze. Start to obsess about connies. Consider buying a portable fan. Investigate skin care (Elizabeth Arden 8 hour cream, anti hydral, sandpaper)

Prepping holds. Brush before and after. Consider chalking polished footholds - it does make a difference whatever Rob G says. Sometimes holds are so caked that squirting water on them and towelling off is required. 

Visualisation. Write down the moves and then mentally rehearse the sequence between sessions to the point where you don’t even have to consciously think what the next move might be. This will help speed up your climbing and minimise f*cking up moves - easily done when tired on a traverse. But always be prepared to adjust your micro beta and sequence.

Ok lots of good information here and a genuine thanks to everyone who responded.  I put this post up because Im 48 and now climbing some of the stuff I always wanted to - because of  projecting - after being inspired by a Dave Macleod projecting video '5 ways to send your project'.

This is brilliant, motivating and very informative.  If your just starting projecting or wondering why your stuck at a grade, then it might be useful information.

Summary of Points:

Actualisation.  Alot of this stuff is obvious but knowing something and doing something about it are two completely different things.

Attitude.  Skills and Knowledge are nothing without Attitude.  Be mature and commit to maintaining or changing your attitude if you want to try succeed.

Move Knowledge.  Projecting is good for 'intimate' move knowledge which you can apply to all your climbing.

Small Improvements. Look for small improvements so that you come away with progress in a session.

Strength & Endurance.  You can get stronger and have more endurance after working the moves.  

Injury. Watch out for injury especially after lots of repetitions of the same move.  Consider taking a theraband for the shoulders, stretch and work mobility between attempts.  Remember though that its always better to stay uninjured!

Determination.  Determination (no real DETERMINATION!) works a lot, especially on the impossible crux and is more accessible due to knowledge and association.  This works for me but might not for you.

Expectations.  Dont set time limits or expectations at the start as this can induce pressure.  Enjoy the process and learn from it, pressuring yourself can make you choke.

Clear your mind.  Relax and think about what your climbing, not the crux or another move.

Interim Feedback.  Video yourself or ask a friend to give you feedback so you realise where you could do things better.  Stretching will improve proprioception and therefore your awareness of what your body was doing when you came off.

Notation.  Make notes on everything you are doing right or want to improve on from conditions through moves, skills, attitude, motivations and planning.  You never know as much as you do when your there at the crag.  Review them at home and before you start your next session.

Rest.  Consider resting for 2 min per hard move between tries.  Rest for 20 - 45 minutes between attempts but remember to warm up if you need to.  One more try - well rested - can work.  Ben Moon slept then did a hard route- Rainshadow I think.

Tired.  Just because you cant do a crux now, doesn't mean you will never do it - you could be tired and will get more efficient.   

Visualisation. Write down the moves and then mentally rehearse the sequence between sessions to the point where you don’t even have to consciously think what the next move might be. 

Prepping holds. Brush before and after. Consider chalking polished footholds.  Sometimes holds are so caked that squirting water on them and towelling off is required. 

Conditions.  I've been when its raining and come away with improvements, but look for and plan around good conditions.

Partners.  Can you concentrate, time rests, review progress, make notes and do what you need to do with a Partner?  Does your Partner motivate you, coach you, can you trust them to spot you?  Do you want them to be there to point out a hold when your pumped out of your mind?

You can do it.. believe in yourself.. It will come.

Bill