UKC

Hi!

If you travelling near Fontainebleau in France
Look before http://pofableau.com and you'll discover a large variety of circuit climbing

Of course, I recommend to you to use a pof instead magnesium.
A pof is a dry resin - like cello rosin - inside an old cloth.

"Pof" it's his sound when you shock the rock with it. The Pof don't make a damage on the rock and he cleans up well with the rain.

You can find the "pof" it here:
http://www.auvieuxcampeur.fr/nos-produits/materiel-de-montagne-d-escalade-e...

Enjoy our beautiful area in bleau.

christian bleau

In reply to christian bleau:
pof is the work of the devil

In reply to christian bleau:

No, Pof is bad, trashes the rock, ruins the friction and is cheating anyway. If you go to Font and don't see the results of Pof use you're either blind or ignorant!

There, that should get some people suitably irate...

In reply to christian bleau:

Pof is the Devil's smegum...

In reply to catt:

Hi!

Whaou ....... I'm the devil's dealer if I believe your posts.

Please place a little bit some chalk on your shoes's gum and please try to climb a smooth polish rock. Do the same think with rosin.

If you are objective you should accept without hesitation that the chalk decreases the adhesion. Why ? because a resin inprove the friction.
That for this simple reason that the cello's musicians use resin.Try it ! You'll see.

Be cool I'm not a shareholder of a rosin factory but just an old of rockclimbing's bleau and like a lot of "bleausard" we know that's better for us. It was just a friendly advice because I know a lot of european climber's don't know the collophane because it's difficult to find it in the sport stores. Like in France. But you can find it in Vieux campeur in the quartier Latin of Paris.

If you want use chalk don't hesitate. you miss of discovery of why a lot of bleau's climbers uses it .

For Catt when you wrotte "There, that should get some people suitably irate..." May be did you mean irritable ? It's exactly It is said that some people are sensible with the collophane. But I never meet someone in this case.

And for finish I never said don't used chalk for hand if the transpiration is handicap for you....... and I'll do not see cheating

Enjoy!

In reply to christian bleau:

The point, i think, some of the other posters are making is that if you can't climb it without pof then you can't climb it. Using something to artificially improve your friction to that extent reduces the difficulty and leaves the rock slippery for anyone not using it.

I'm just back from font and found that in some places even good positive footholds have been poffed and are almost unusable without it. Found it particularly annoying on a slab as the main point is balance and good footwork.

In reply to Elwood:

Pof or polish?

In reply to fried:

Pof - Recognisable from the extent, positioning and it almost always within reach of the ground. In a couple of instances at Bas Cuvier people did the problem after me and poffed it up. So that was pretty conclusive.

In reply to christian bleau:
To be fair, the impression i was left with from my visits to font was that either pof or chalk, the real issue seems to be overuse of either.
The same can be said of any crag i recon.

In reply to Elwood:

you said " I'm just back from font and found that in some places even good positive footholds have been poffed and are almost unusable without it. Found it particularly annoying on a slab as the main point is balance and good footwork."

I'm agree with you it makes a difference and that the reason the manufacturers's climbing shoes introduce resin inside the sole since 80's like 5.10, sportiva and the others

I forgot an other reason about the pof's use in bleau. It's because we have a lot of sand also, we clean the rock with cloths in the same time and clean shoes soles with a little carpet.
And so we avoid degrade the rock with sand.

christian

In reply to christian bleau:
ere ere, i wish some of my friends could get that through their head too, especialy on grit stone!

Im not sure tho, the used condoms and broken glass i found a bit of an annoyance rather than the lack of friction in font.

In reply to christian bleau:

There is a reason why pof is only used in bleau.

It is apparently distilled from turpentine the resultant product is used in industrial solvents, varnishes and paints. The colophane also should carry the big irritant warning and can be very damaging. Compared to MgCO3 which is used in food products!

You might just as well use superglue on all the holds as its basically what you are doing and will have the same results.

Yet you say magnesium carbonate is more damaging, this makes no sense!!!

I might use a tube of glue next time i go to font it will up my grades, and the lovely coat it will put on the rock will protect it from weathering and thus preserving the rock for ever, then when the rocks are completely coated and unclimbable, i shall climb them with ease using suckers on may hands and feet.

I think its just you lot being stubborn rather then any real reason.

In reply to christian bleau: Oh and i clean my shoes with carpet before i climb because i care.

Overuse of anything is also an issue as someone else said dont use excessive amounts of chalk and use a nylon brush to clean holds.

In reply to christian bleau or rather the others:

The problem at Fontainebleau is chalk more then pof... I remember back in the 70s when rocks there were rock coloured. Why not simply respect what the ONF - those who manage the forest for the people of France - and the COSIROC - the nearest we have to a representative body of local climbers, and stop using chalk - and using the minimum of pof, preferably none?

In reply to christian bleau:

Pof, Chalk, bof. It's just an exercise in national pride. Let's not forget the real issue. If people keep covering stuff in shit (and I mean shit) access will start to become the real problem.

If you want to leave no trace in a forest, then don't.

If you want to put glue on holds then use bof.

In reply to christian bleau:

I'm not a great climber (this seems to count a lot on fora), but I've never had a problem with chalk. THe rain washes the majority of it away. There are downsides, as with everyhing. But with sparing use, and cleaning afterwards, the damage is temporary, and primariyl visual.

Pof just polishes holds, and ruins problems, so far as I can see.
It forms a self perpetuating cycle, wherby more pof is needed to get friction to the levels it was previously. Eventually, you end up with holds unusable without pof, and uncleanabe.

This seems to be at odds with chalk, as visible as it may be. Wait until the next shower, and the majority of the problem is gone.

Of course, I may be wrong. After all, I'm not very good.

In reply to Fatboyteesside: Totally agree, where I climb in Northumberland after rain there is hardly any chalk visible except on hold under roofs, it washes right off leaving no harmful residue.

Pof is waterproof and therefore will remain ingrained into the rock, a small amount is invisible and does improve friction but years of use and overuse scum up the rock. Have a look at the footholds on Abattoir, big black horrible smudges that can only be stood on by using more pof.

....hold on is this a wind up? LOL

There are little explanation as scientific, factual and visible pour la comparison chalk vs. rosin. Comparison between "alkaline carbonate" and "organic resin".
I doubt myself after this exchange.
A study on the effects of magnesium and rosin must be achieved cosiroc.
http://cosiroc.org/spip.php?rubrique39〈=fr
Maybe we can see more clearly and understand the real advantages and disadvantages of each.

It's a first time I ears that the "pof" has need more "pof". May be you're right. I'm doubtful. I need a factual demonstration and not a suposition. Who can propose to me a demonstration? Who can make the link between the abatoir's black smudges and the pof and not the fréquentation of this famous internationally block? Who?
What I can tell you is that we should protect holds with SIKA, a chemical due, to overcrowding and not because of pof. this is different point of view.

Thank you for your posts.

christian.bleau

http://pofableau.com

In reply to christian bleau:

I'm (probably) generalising massively but it does seem to me that pof use in Font is more prolific on easier and/ or circuit problems than more recent/ harder problems. This is particularly true of low slabs and walls where boot friction is more key to success and key holds are all low enough to be poffed. I reckon there are potentially three main reasons for this:

1) Many of Font’s easier/ circuit problems were put up more than half a decade ago when sticky rubber wasn’t available. Pof usage was a logical means to overcome lack of friction
2) Font is amazing because of the diversity of styles of climbing. Despite this and again please forgive me for generalising, many of Font’s harder and more recent problems are overhanging prows, steep arêtes, roofs and vertical/ slightly overhanging walls. I’d argue that for these types of problem, absolute friction between toe rubber and rock is less critical than strong fingers, power, core and more complex or “modern” foot techniques. Look at some of the classic mid grade to hard problems in this category and I can guarantee that you will see little or no pof
3) Pof usage is now somewhat oldfashioned and the 'new school' of bleausard (i.e. young/ youngish strong French climbers) are shirking pof use over chalk - next time you're at Cuvier etc have a look at the French climbers on the high 7s and 8s and see how many are using pof (including on their warm ups, easier problems or hard slabs), I can guarantee that it won't be many

Now for the slightly controversial bit. What all of the above means is that pulling off the ground on classic easy and circuit problems, WITHOUT THE USE OF POF, can feel absolutely desperate for us Brits, Americans, other Europeans and all climbers from non pof using countries. Inevitably, the starting footholds on these classic 5s and 6s will be poffed up to the max with frictional properties resembling glass. However, when and old school bleausard rocks up and pofs the starting footholds, his feet, as if by magic, will stick and the problem will once again feel like a 5 rather than a 7. This is not to say that many old school bleausards do not have impeccable technique or for that matter, that British climbers do not have good slab/ wall technique. The difference is that bleausards consider pof usage acceptable and Brits (+ all other climbers?) don’t.

In reply to christian bleau:

I like alot of English take an annual trip to your magic forests of fontainbleau, and what a truely beaufiful place it is. However I am very much like mided with the other climbers on here..

Two straight facts.

POF is a resin, therefore it is waterproof and does not get washed off by the rain.

Chalk, magnesium carbonate is completely water soluble and IS washed of by the rain.

Mixing POF with chalk, and shoe rubber creates a horrible black, glassy texture to the rock, permanently altering its friction properties.

This results in the rock becoming clogged and can no longer absorb water, shed microscopic layers of sand and also becomes VERY slippy, thus ruining the foot or hand placement. Ultimatley making the problems alot harder. and less enjoyable.



Most good english boulders will try to remove any excess chalk from the holds AFTER they have climbed the problem(s)


Although i hate seeing the little white trails of chalk on the rocks, it is much more controlable, kinder, and more natural than pof.

I think that alot of people on this forumn would agree that there are certain areas of the font forest that have been ruined beyond repair due to the over use of POF.


Please for the sake of the rocks STOP using it.......


And while your at it, The Local Font climbers need to do somethig about the Lethal biological waste at bas cuvier, needles, condoms and human waste.

If you love your rocks as we all do, get it cleaned up and get the place protected from people who dont care about others. How would you like your child to fall off a problem and land on a used drug addicts needle ????

merci

In reply to Redsetter: Wise words Redsetter.
It would be really nice to see places like Bas Cuvier get a cleanup on a regular basis. I for one don't go there as I hate seeing the rubbish as much as I hate seeing the trashed (poffed) rock!!

In reply to Cristian Bleau, evidence that the black smudges are pof; have you ever seen them anywhere else in the world? Because I have not.

Well said. Used johnnies every in Bas Cuvier, Not nice to have around especially with the amount of families that walk around the place.

In reply to Redsetter:



At least one of your facts is wrong as is the conclusion. Magnesium carbonate appears to be insoluble in water

http://www.vet-way.com/liq-pow-pdfs-eng/Magnesium%20Carbonate%20Light.pdf

& although it may wash off some rock types anyone who regularly climbs sandstone must be aware that chalk stays on the holds even after heavy thunderstorms& prolonged rain. I've sadly just spent a week in Annot in perfect conditions to establish this.

In reply to Beardyman:

I checked out these black smudges at the time of a previous identical thread and using a magnifying glass came to the conclusion that the lack of sunlight, surrounding blackish mould and polish caused them... Nearby areas exposed to sunlight did not have the same marks... But I didn't (nor do I know how to) make scientific chemical tests to prove this.

Secondly those saying chalk washes off are are talking nonsense for Fontainebleau - especially the numerous sheltered areas, holes and cracks where the humidity lurks anyway and a layer of hygroscopic chalk creates a dank slimy mess - it never washes off. At present we haven't had rain for a month or more so the rocks have changed colour. Even after rain the encrusted chalk actually combines with the sandstone and becomes permanent. Over 30 years the change is so obvious that I'm amazed people can say such whoppers like "chalk washes off when it rains" - Fontainebleau is not N England

Last point, I find it rather pretentious that British visiting climbers consistently claim to know better than the local COSIROC people - what about the oft vanted merits of "local consensus"? Here's what they request visitors do:

http://www.windmillweb.info/various/no_chalk_at_bleau.doc

Last, last remark, even if such artificial aids as chalk or pof may deemed required for hard climbs there is surely absolutely no excuse on yellow circuits nor for plastering footholds with chalk, is there?

Ultimate last remark: Sticky rubber - PA,s and EBs were invented for Fontainebleau (PA is Pierre Alain) and there rubber was pretty sticky, often people imagine that the rubber today is much better, I personally don't see much difference, not enough to say this was the reason pof was used before... anyway the best is to use neither and climb at your real level rather than a powder enhanced one

In reply to christian bleau:

I have typed this elsewhere, but here goes again...

In my experience, pof use is over-exaggerated. Many low level circuits are polished through over use. This is in no way scientific. There are no FACTS, only opinions, until someone compares the rock to a similar grained sandstone which hasn't been poffed. In many areas there are rocks which have only been walked on, these are also polished to a mirror like sheen, there is one at Apremont which I've seen catch the unwary, it's at an angle of about 10%.

Please be aware that clean-ups are organised by volunteers (there was one in Cuvier in November), it is the responsibility of everyone who uses the forest to take all there waste away. I was at Cuvier a couple of weeks ago and at there is shit/ toilet paper behind every other boulder. This is caused by climbers (of what nationality I have no idea). It was a similar story at Buthiers.

The used condoms are another story.

There are currently plans to turn Fontainebleau into a National Park, this will (probably) have a profound effect on access.

http://latribunelibredebleau.blogspot.com/search/label/D%C3%A9bat%20autour%...

For anyone that can read French.

In reply to fried:

Good points. I would also point out that the polish in Bleau has only become a problem relatively recently, there was no such issue only 10 or so years ago.
Clearly, therefore this acceleration in wear is linked to a change in climbing practices.
My strong suspicion is that the critical change here is the disappearance of the Bleausard's mat resulting in many climbing with sand on their feet.
However the constant brushing associated with chalk may be a factor.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: Good points Bruce, I think you are right that we shouldn't judge based on what we know from our own climbing areas.

I guess the one thing we can all agree on is that it is better ethics to use neither. Over use of both products has a detrimental effect on the rock.

I for one will never use pof as I personally disagree with it's use but would never try to prevent anyone else using it (unless it was on a crag in Northumberland, then I would make the f**ker eat the damn stuff!!!). I always try to brush off excess chalk before I leave a problem, especially tick marks.... there is a whole other debate!!

In reply to Beardyman:

there is no debate! brush off chalk after finishing on a problem

In reply to Rob Gibson:

But in past debates on the subject chalk fans always insist that they only put a little chalk on their fingers to dry them and then wipe off the excess so that when they touch the rock they leave very little chalk on it?

Personally this doesn't correspond to what I see people doing - the layers of white caked onto foot hold 50cms off the ground would seem to prove it too - but that's what chalkies usually claim

PS. Repeated brushing of a soft rock like sandstone is probably worse than the chalk!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

what are you suggesting then?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Yes, but !

There will always usury the rock caused by overcrowding.
anywhere, with or without chalk or pof just 'cause people climb the rock,
see "les calanques" in Marseilles a lot of routes are polish.

however, have an attitude to avoid traces is already a respect for others is a great progress.
must be able to share playgrounds with care for all.

that's why I placed this link http://www.lnt.org/ on my website.
"LEAVE NO TRACE" is a good slogan. an isn't?

If most of boulder's climber take a"leave no trace" attitude it's will be a big progress for all.
It's different that to say the others should begin.
It's suppose that the climber pay some attention at his impact on the environnement and want to reduce the view of his passage.

Try it because a little bit and a little bit with a large community get a big result.
It's not to say the others should begin.

christian.bleau

In reply to christian bleau:



"LEAVE NO TRACE"


thats a good philosophy

In reply to Rob Gibson:

Simple don't use chalk or pof, get a bit of ecology into your life

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Yes I agree, I would like to not use chalk or drive on roads or live in a centrally heated house (do you?), however........

my preference is to use chalk sparingly, brush it off after I have finished and pick my litter up

In reply to Rob Gibson:

If you think that using chalk, which at best may help you climb a grade or half a grade higher is of equal importance to road transport and heating the house in winter than I would suggest counselling or something before the illness worsens and a serial chalker becomes a serial killer

Not that long ago everyone climbed without chalk and we all had just as much pleasure and a number of impressive routes were managed all the same.... certainly pretty well all the circuits at Fontainebleau were put up, many of the high black/white circuits get few repeats even today.

In reply to i.munro:

Nothing to do with the massive increase in usage??

Chris

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

you justify your central heating and car to yourself and I'm happy with a bit of chalk that I brush off

Just think, at the time the early problems were put up a majority of people didn't have cars or central heating.

In reply to Rob Gibson:

Nice one..!!

In reply to Rob Gibson:

Most climbers did - your arguments are quite silly though, cars central heating etc are absolutely nothing to do with using chalk on heavily frequented places like Fontainebleau. You know what the local representative body says, isn't that enough for you?

PS. In case clicking on a link is as insurmountable a problem for you as respecting other climbers here's the text from the link I posted above. This is a COSIROC poster:

"To our visitors:

in Bleau, no chalk !

Why? Once it has dried your hands, chalk (i.e. magnesia) absorbs air humidity and moist magnesia provides the others with a rock friction like... soap.

This is not a serious trouble in crag routes only climbed by a limited number of climbers but, in Bleau where hundreds people climb the same routes each day, this is catastrophic. In fact, each climber would need more and more chalk to dry, not only his own hands, but also the slippery layer of magnesia he will find on the holds. In other words, chalk is like drug: the more you use it, the more others need it.

In Bleau as well as in crags, the best is to use no artefact at all but, in case of emergency, you can rub your hands with "pof" (i.e. rosin or colophony). It has the advantages of being hydrophobic and keeping its friction, even slightly moist: moreover, it is an organic material progressively destroyed by the sunshine....

COSIROC thanks you."