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Sally In The Woods - Access

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Hi all,

I just wanted to clarify the access situation at Sally in the Woods. The UKC page suggests the boulders are on common land. However it seems this is not the case. I am currently involved with the landowner regarding tree safety and removal of high risk trees in the woodland. This is a private individual and not the council.

The landowner is happy with climbing/bouldering taking place and has been for many years. However as popularity increases he growing concerned about liability and would be keen to discuss his options with BMC access rep for the local area.

I am struggling to ascertain who this is so would be grateful to be pointed in the right direction.

Thanks.

Fred

 The Pylon King 09 Feb 2022
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Mark Courtier is the BMC rep for tha area but cant find a contact address for him at the moment.

The main edge all the way to the Hippy Cave (All Elements) is definately common land.

In reply to The Pylon King:

Brill thanks. Think I've got Mark's details from a cheddar bolting question last year. 

Seems many thought so. But not according to the maps I've been given. I'll investigate it further and see if I can get a look at the deeds.

Post edited at 12:21
In reply to The Pylon King:

I've just bought the title from the land registry - see below. Pylon, any chance you could have a look with your far more familiar eye to see what exactly lies where... I've not spent much time up there so though I think the rocks form the boundary and would therefore be on private land, I'm not certain.

https://www.icloud.com/iclouddrive/08buk73OQ6AVHMtpBUgQUJHAQ#Sally_in_the_W...

Post edited at 12:46
 The Pylon King 09 Feb 2022
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Interesting. On Magic map (https://magic.defra.gov.uk/) the far south point is marked as CROW Land/Common land.

In reply to The Pylon King:

Definitely interesting. Is it possible for common land to be in private ownership? From what I understand from a quick google... it is. But curiously there is nothing about common land on the register accompanying the title. Makes me think Magic Map isn't correct.

I've copy and pasted below. I redacted owner name and address. Anyone deeply interested can get hold of the document for £3 on the land registry site.

Title Number : ST7523 This title is dealt with by HM Land Registry, Plymouth Office. The following extract contains information taken from the register of the above title number. A full copy of the register accompanies this document and you should read that in order to be sure that these brief details are complete. Neither this extract nor the full copy is an 'Official Copy' of the register. An official copy of the register is admissible in evidence in a court to the same extent as the original. A person is entitled to be indemnified by the registrar if he or she suffers loss by reason of a mistake in an official copy. This extract shows information current on 9 FEB 2022 at 14:26:10 and so does not take account of any application made after that time even if pending in HM Land Registry when this extract was issued.

 

REGISTER EXTRACT Title Number : ST7523 Address of Property : Land at Gully Wood, Warleigh, Bath Price Stated : £65,000 Registered Owner(s) : XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. Lender(s) : None

This is a copy of the register of the title number set out immediately below, showing the entries in the register on 9 FEB 2022 at 14:26:10. This copy does not take account of any application made after that time even if still pending in HM Land Registry when this copy was issued. This copy is not an 'Official Copy' of the register. An official copy of the register is admissible in evidence in a court to the same extent as the original. A person is entitled to be indemnified by the registrar if he or she suffers loss by reason of a mistake in an official copy. If you want to obtain an official copy, the HM Land Registry web site explains how to do this.

A: Property Register This register describes the land and estate comprised in the title. BATH AND NORTH EAST SOMERSET 1 (02.09.1964) The Freehold land shown edged with red on the plan of the above Title filed at the Registry and being Land at Gully Wood, Warleigh, Bath. 2 The Conveyance dated 1 October 1957 referred to in the Charges Register is expressed to grant the following right:- "TOGETHER with a right of way for the Company and its successors in title at all times and for all purposes over and along the road or track between the points marked V and W on the said plan" NOTE: The points V and W on the Conveyance plan are similarly shown on the filed plan.

B: Proprietorship Register This register specifies the class of title and identifies the owner. It contains any entries that affect the right of disposal. Title possessory 1 (23.05.2019) PROPRIETOR: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. 2 (23.05.2019) The value stated as at 23 May 2019 was £65,000.

C: Charges Register This register contains any charges and other matters that affect the land. 1 An Agreement under seal dated 1 August 1938 made between (1) Anna Dorothea Mary Skrine (2) Ferdinande Anna Josephine De Lagarenne, Christopher Bevan Thring, Charles Paston Crane and Francis Osmond Joseph Huntley (3) Mary Alice Caroline Crane, Margaret Cecely Mowll, Frances Ethel Rosamund Staveley and Alexander Duncan Skrine (4) Ferdinande Anna Josephine De Lagarenne (5) The Rural District Council of Bathavon and (6) The County Council of the Administrative County of Somerset contains restrictive covenants. NOTE: Copy filed under ST6752. 2 A Conveyance of the land in this title and other land dated 1 October 1957 made between (1) The Right Reverend Edward Worsfold Mowll, Walter Vivian Douglas Skrine and Ralph Lambert Duncan Skrine (Vendors) and (2) Forge Valley Woodlands Limited (Company) contains the following covenants:- "THE Company for itself and its successors in title hereby covenants with the Vendors as follows:- 

C: Charges Register continued For the benefit and protection of the said Warleigh Estate Water Supply not to impede polute or interfere with or knowingly permit to be impeded polluted or interfered with such springs and apparatus or the catchment area connected with such supply as are situate in or upon Gully Wood aforesaid but the Company shall be under no liability in respect of this covenant after it shall have parted with all interest in Gully Wood aforesaid." 3 By the Conveyance dated 1 October 1957 referred to above the land was conveyed subject to the following rights:- "To all such rights privileges and advantages whether as regards way support water drainage sewerage electricity light or of laying and maintaining cables water or other pipes or mains of any nature whatsoever for the benefit of any property now or formerly forming part of the Claverton and Warleigh Estates as the owners tenants or occupiers of such property are now or have been accustomed to enjoy by way of easements quasi-easements profits a prendre or otherwise." 4 A Conveyance of the land in this title and other land dated 31 December 1959 made between (1) Forge Valley Woodlands Limited (Vendor) and (2) Gladys Couper Fraser, William Harold Thomson and Derek Ballance Thomson (Purchasers) contains the following covenants:- "FOR the benefit of the adjoining or neighbouring property known as Warleigh Manor and in the interests of the amenity the Purchasers hereby jointly and severally covenant with the Vendor that the Purchasers and the persons deriving title under them will cultivate and manage the property hereby conveyed in accordance with the practice of good forestry and a plan of restocking to be agreed with the Forestry Commission and will not sell the said property or any part thereof without including in the Conveyance or transfer a similar covenant by the then purchaser." 5 (20.02.2006) The land is subject to the following profit a prendre in gross reserved by the Conveyance dated 1 October 1957 referred to above:- "EXCEPT AND RESERVED unto the Vendors and their successors in title in fee simple First out of the properties Thirdly and Fourthly described all game wild fowl woodcock and hares upon such last-mentioned properties together with the exclusive rights of preserving shooting and taking the same and of authorising others to do so". NOTE: The land in this title comprised the land 'Fourthly' described in the said Conveyance. The profit a prendre in gross title is registered under ST242822. End of register

Post edited at 14:32
 thomasadixon 09 Feb 2022
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Ownership and whether something is common land are just different things.  You can buy common land, might not be able to do much with it though...

In reply to thomasadixon:

Have just established that myself! Apparently it being common land won’t be in the freeholders Title (above). But on the deeds of whoever has access. Not applicable to us in other words. It seems the fact it is CROW land is the important bit for climbers.

Still. Doesn’t seem to include all the crag. Lucky the owner is amenable. Ill get him in touch with BMC asap.

 BusyLizzie 09 Feb 2022
In reply to The Pylon King:

Private land, CROW land and common land are different, and land can be one or two or even all three! Rights of common (which are public, and won't be on anyone's deeds) may not entitle anyone to climb, and I wouldn't have thought (happy to be corrected) that CROW enables climbing on private land (and you'll have trouble finding any land that isn't in England and Wales). The landowner is always entitled to say no.

This is sad. I would love to roll back the clock, but it would have to go a long way back - I suppose to before 1066, although of course landowners actually being bothered by climbing is a modern thing.

There is a thing called a conservation covenant, in the Environment Act 2021 (not yet in force) which is supposed to enable a landlowner to dedicate land to conservation or other nice green purposes. One of the examples given in the surrounding write-up is to enable access for climbing (someone involved in the design of the legislation may have been a climber, and an optimist!). Would be nice if it catches on.

1
 smbnji 09 Feb 2022
In reply to BusyLizzie:

https://www.gov.uk/common-land-village-greens

> Common land

> Common land is owned, for example by a local council, privately or by the National Trust.

> You usually have the right to roam on it. This means you can use it for certain activities like walking and climbing.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/open-access-land-management-rights-and-responsi...

> The Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 (CROW Act) normally gives a public right of access to land

> What people can do on your land

> People can normally access your open access land on foot. They can:

  • walk
  • sightsee
  • bird-watch
  • climb
  • run
Post edited at 19:11
 BusyLizzie 09 Feb 2022
In reply to smbnji:

Indeed, but beware the "usually".

1
 joem 09 Feb 2022
In reply to BusyLizzie:

> Private land, CROW land and common land are different, and land can be one or two or even all three! Rights of common (which are public, and won't be on anyone's deeds) may not entitle anyone to climb, and I wouldn't have thought (happy to be corrected) that CROW enables climbing on private land (and you'll have trouble finding any land that isn't in England and Wales). The landowner is always entitled to say no.

Land designated as open access under the CROW act specifically gives rights of access for among other things climbing.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/open-access-land-management-rights-and-responsi...

 smbnji 09 Feb 2022
In reply to BusyLizzie:

I'd be more wary of the unusual rather than the usual!

 BusyLizzie 09 Feb 2022
In reply to joem:

Ooh righty ho, didn't know that about CROW land.

 Marek 09 Feb 2022
In reply to BusyLizzie:

It's all a bit obscure these days.

Common land originally did NOT mean public access - it allowed certain local people (the named "commoners") to exploit the land in very specific ways, e.g., grazing.

Today, *some* common land has been opened up to more general public access (but still with restriction on what you can do), but that's on a case-by-case basis. In theory the rights - whatever they are - are supposed to be recorded in the common land registry, but in practice that quite hard to access. The location of common land is reasonably easy to identify, but the rights  - not so easy.

The CRoW act is completely separate set of rights (and obligations) which may or may not apply to any given parcel of common land (or even part of).

And then there are other other bits of generally accessible land (e.g., village greens) which are not common land and not covered by CRoW. Good luck with figuring out what your rights are there!


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