UKC

Just how hard is the Cneifion Arete???

I am planning on taking a group of mates out scrambling and they have done numerous grade one scrambles in Wales, the Lakes and Scotland.

In terms of progressing from grade one, what good routes are there available in Lakes and Wales for this and can they be done without a rope? None of the people I will be taking are bothered about exposure so wont need a rope to combat that.

Would love some suggestions soon as meant to be going out again this week gettin a few routes done with them.

Cheers,

Ads

In reply to Ads Co.:

First part is Mod/Diff depending on conditions, rest is grade 3. The exposure is fantastic, very alpine in feel. The route as a whole holds interest all the way and is a cracking start to a long day on the hill. Take some gear and a rope just in case.

Enjoy,

DJ

In reply to Ads Co.:
add the sub to make a great day

In reply to Deejay and everyone: that might be a bit too advanced then for them if it is grade 3 with some rock climbing.

what other suggestions of routes in that area or in lakes does anybody suggest???

In reply to Ian McNeill: the what????

In reply to Ads Co.:

You could start on Idwal slabs, The Ordinary Route (Diff) and head up over to Cneifion Arete from there.

In reply to Ads Co.:

North Ridge of Tryfan, followed by Bristly Ridge and down Y Gribin. All grade 1 but possibly one of the most enjoyable and engaging days to be had. The general interest and sheer volume of entertainment outweighs any percieved ease.

DJ

In reply to Paul F: i think that would be a too tricky route for them.....i need something that is a good step up from a grade one scramble please.

cheers for route though

In reply to Ads Co.:

Sorry, however many grade one scrambles your mates have done, they must definitely be roped up for at least the first (30-40 ) pitch of CA, because that really isn't scrambling at all and v steep - their 'ability to combat exposure' will not help them a jot on that.

I think you should probably keep them roped up the whole way, because grade one scrambles are really inadequate training for this 'moderate scramble'.

In reply to Deejay: argh they have already done that route!!! they loved it but doubt they would want to do it again so soon

In reply to Ads Co.:

Please don't take this answer the wrong way 'cos providing you don't fall off, any route can be done without a rope. Unfortunately, I've experience of what happens when a scrambler fell off a Grade 3 scramble without a rope - it was fatal (Cyfrwy Arete, Cadair Idris, Feb '99).

Just make sure that all in your party understand and accept the higher level of risk because, after a fatality or serious injury, you might find that they won't find the route worth it.

Often the routes above Grade 1 have loose rock and vegetation (some of the scrambles on Glyder Fach, for example) which pose serious hazards to an unroped scrambler.

Advice:- Work your way through the routes in Ashton's scrambling guide for Snowdonia. Know how to protect your party. Know the route before you solo it.

I prefer Whillan's adage:- 'The mountains will always be there, will you?'

In reply to Ads Co.:

Can I suggest you pick up a copy of:

"Scrambles and Easy Climbs in Snowdonia", Sparks, Hutton & Rawson (Greystone)

And also the similarly titled volume for the lakes. Inspiring little guides with enough to keep you and your friends entertained through the summer.

Failing that: Cyfrwy Arete, Dolmen Ridge, Llech Ddu Spur in Snowdonia. Dungeon Ghyll, Pinnacle Ridge, Intake Ridge (Diff) in the Lakes.

DJ

In reply to Dee: i am looking in the Ashton book now and am trying to pick a route but really cant decide.

To date they have done the following routes:

Tryfan North Ridge
Bristly Ridge
Gribin
Pen Yr Ole Wen
Crib Lem / Llech Ddu Spur
Striding Edge on Helvellyn
Sharp Edge on Blencathra
Carn Mor Dearg Arete

In reply to Deejay: Isnt Pinnacle Ridge a grade 3 scramble???

In reply to Ads Co.:

Yes. Heed the advice given by JIB; work your way through the grades; make sure your mates can look after themselves and you if necessary; don't be afraid of wearing a lid, particularly if others are above you, if you're in a gully or if you just like keeping your brains on the inside.

Have fun,

DJ

In reply to Ads Co.: Crib Goch by E Ridge and Snowdon Horseshoe is the obvious route. Then Crib Goch by the N Ridge, Y Gribin on Snowdon...
Little & N Gully on Tryfan (scrappy after the initial start), Seniors Ridge (can be enlivened through careful route choice); there is a Grade 1 on Glyder Fach (Main Gully? - which has an interesting move to pass the initial chockstone).

In reply to Ads Co.:

bryants gully is a lovely scramble in dry weather. parsons nose arrete i would also recomend and the grade 2 on y garn is a good day out. All of which i have done unroped and felt (mostly) safe.

If it's a route at Grade 1 that I've not done before then I carry a 30 metre length of half-rope (8-8.5mm). The same applies if I'm out with people who I've not climbed with before. Trust is everything.

In reply to Removed User: where is parsons nose arete

In reply to Removed User: Bryant's Gully is an interesting example. There is at least one point which is 'committing' (Ashton does describe it):- the 'black mossy wall' - it can be avoided and I've both climbed it and backed off it. In the upper reaches of Bryant's Gully, near the top of Esgair Felen, the rock becomes loose and, at times, unreliable. I carry a rope on this route to protect members of my party but haven't used it to protect myself. I've climbed it in both dry and wet conditions.

The Parson's Nose Arete has loose rock on it in places and, in my limited experience of 10 years of climbing it, it has changed somewhat at certain points due to freeze-thaw (a gully feature just after the initial steepness is a weakness). The rock has a tendency to be greasy under damp conditions. Again I've climbed it under dry and wet conditions. Personally, I always prefer to use a rope on this route.

In reply to Ads Co.:
Upper Cwm Glas, Snowdon. Grade 2/3.

In reply to Ads Co.:
the clogwyn y person is found leading out of llyn glas onto the north side of garnedd again (western end of crib goch)

That said, it is probably pushing the limits of unroped scrambling and you may be better on my other suggestions. The crux of bryants is avoidable.

In reply to Ads Co.:

A further thing:- I've found Ashton to be a very reliable and accurate guide to the scrambling difficulties in Snowdonia; unfortunately, I have found Graham Thompson's guide to Scrambling in England and Wales to be less useful in respect of its coverage of routes in Snowdonia.

In reply to Dee:

So - just stick to Ashton. Generally v sound, with the bonus of being v well written.

In reply to Ads Co.:
There are three enjoyable grade 2 routes in Cwm Idwal, from Ashton's book - Direct Approach to Senior's Ridge, Idwal Staircase and Continuation and North-West Face Route - they are all ok without ropes, plenty of possible variations to avoid difficulties if needed once the upper cliffs are reached. Do need careful route finding though. And I've never been able to work out, from Ashton's description, exactly where the 'continuation' part of the Idwal staircase one is supposed to go - I just ad lib it.

In reply to Ads Co.:

I've done loads of scrambling over the years, in fact it was how me and my mates got into climbing, I'd take a short rope and a few slings on grade 2 and above unless you're out with equal ability people and you both decide not to.

The East ridge of Y Garn is really good but you may want a rope on the top section, I did when I was 14 and it was my 1st grade 2 scramble.

The East ridge of Harrison Stickle in the Lakes is a good step up from grade 1 and is really nice with harder options than its 1/2 grade

In reply to Removed User:
oh yeah, there's also a nice scramble called crib lem on the back of carnedd davydd...grade 2 i think?

In reply to John Wakeman:
and also if they are fine on these you could just carry on up to cnefionn arete.

In reply to Ads Co.:

Sub-Cneifion starts above the lake adjacent the problem boulder roof - has it been ascended yet ???

Out of the three scrambles leading to Cwm Cneifion the Direct Approach To Seniors Ridge is probably most suitable. There's only one exposed bit (breach of suicide Wall) and the situations and scrambling is superb. I much prefer it over Idwal Staircase which is more popular and has difficult route finding.

In reply to Ads Co.:

To Original Poster:

I know what you mean - i've done loads of grade 1 wscrambles in Snowdonia n a few grade 3s but seem to have missed out grade 2?!

Have been meaning to do NE Ridge of Y Garn for ages tho - thats grade 2 n my plan was to combine it with an exploration of devil's kitchen on the descent

Crib Lem is grade 1 not grade 2...

Have my eye on chasm route too but thats grade 3 i think

One option would be to do Main Gully on Milestone Buttress (Tryfan) at grade 1 then a messy scrabble over boulders etc to traverse rpound to heather terrace and do one of the scrambles on east side if tryfan. Some of thoswe at grade 2 i think? (check guide) Little/North Gully is straightforward as little gully avoids the initial steep bit of north gully. Nor Nor gully is great (if you like that kindve thing) but couple of tricky sections if doing it unroped - i fell 15 foot unroped from one of them one november n walked away....

be safe

In reply to Ads Co.:

Would be worth approaching Cwm Cneifion via either Idwal Staircase, North West Face Route or Direct Approach to Seniors Ridge just to see how you're all going on a grade 2. Although Ashton says that North West Face route is "less satisfying" than alternatives I really enjoy it. The rock quality is good once past the initial section and you gain height quickly. The quartz ledge near the top is excellent! Like Idwal Staircase, it's solid grade 2 scrambling with tricky route finding. Gives you and your mates chance to weigh up how you're going on it and make a decision about CA at the top. Given what your mates have done I'd suggest that a rope, some gear and the skills to use it properly will be important for Cneifion Arete. You wouldn't want anyone to make a mistake and fall from the trickiest bit. Moderate rock climbing. I've posted a couple of quick route reports in the Welsh Scrambling section here:

http://www.orionmountaineering.com/routes.htm

Have fun!