UKC

Hi,

I'm thinking about a two man trip to Alaska from late May to the end of June next year.

Obviously I've never been to Alaska before, so I'd appreciate some advice from folk with more expirence than me.

We'd plan to have 4 weeks or so on the glacier with them aim of climbing the Cassin.

I reckon the most important thing is to be really fit, like really, really fit. I'd plan to do lots of training before hand. Running, cycling, bug hill days with and maybe some weights. Alaska sounds big and scary, when the weather turns.

Here is my rough sort of plan.

Fly into KIA, establish a base camp. Four man tent and maybe a megamid for cooking shelter.

Snowshoe (or maybe ski (what type of ski - length and binding type would we want??) up to the 14,200' in a single carry (ie not returning to KIA).

Establish a BC there with a 2 man double skin tent. spend time there acclimatizing. Go up to 17,000" camp and/or maybe summit Denali via west buttress fast.

Return to KIA. Rest. Return back to 14,200 with more food/fuel.

With a good weather window descent the Seatle 72 ramp to the base of Japanease Couloir. Climb the Cassin with a single (maybe 2) bivi (bergshrund at top of hanging glacier) and descend to the 14'200.

Return from 14'200 and descend down to KIA.

Go home very happy!

Plan for the Cassin.

Skinny single rope + 6mm tag line
Light rack

Bivi Kit
BD First Light Tent
Double Sleeping Bag
Jetboil stove (would use XGK for the rest of the time.)

Wear

Olympus Mons or Spantiks/40 below overboots

Baselayer
Fleece sallopettes/hoody
softshell sallopettes and jackets
primaloft booster layer
Belay Jacket and Trousers - would wear these to bivi in too.

Am I on the right lines or am i completely deluded and going to die?

Cheers,

Tom

In reply to Tom Ripley:

Hi Tom

With nil medical knowledge I might very well be wrong on this, and I would urge you to discuss this with someone who knows what he's talking about, but my understanding is that being fit and being acclimatized are not the same thing; ie it's possible for someone who's very fit but insufficiently acclimatized to climb too fast and incur High Altitude Sickness (PD/CD etc). I've no idea what the payoff rate is - ie how long you'd have to spend at 14,200 or 17,000 for acclimatization to be significant - but one or two bivis on the Cassin sounds pretty fast to me; I'd be inclined to go with provisions - fuel, certainly - for a bit more than that, which would of course give some level of safety margin in bad weather. As someone who was neither particularly fit nor acclimatized - the weather was good when we arrived so we went for it - I found my time on Denali more knackering than anything else I can remember; breaking down a bivi and packing a rucksack generally required five minutes sitting in the snow and panting!

Not sure I'd bother with a tagline; think "up"!

In reply to Tom Ripley:

dont know squat about the route, but for a nut you seem to be thinkin this thru.

start with what looks like a not-unreasonable plan and youve got a year to refine as you train.

id put a lot of effort into your nutrition for this as it will play a key role.

go hard. id wish you luck, but its not about that.

In reply to Tom Ripley:

Hi Tom

2 ways to go about it.

A) Single carry to 11,000 and double to 14,000 3 weeks worth of food and fuel. Wait for a weather window, and in the meantime go up to 17,000 at least twice and spend a few nights there. Once to the WB high camp and once to the WR. Stash the Cassin's kit, food and fuel at the WR cut-off. Summit via WB if possible.
When a window comes leave everything at 14 camp, do the West Rib approach, pick up stash and head down to the the start of Cassin. Climb and return to 14 WB camp.

B) Leave a stash at the West Fork camp and go up to do your acclimatisation from 14 as above but without stashing the WR. Stash 14,000 camp in the way down when a weather window approaches. Sit it at the WF camp and approach via West Fork. Climb and return to 14,000, have a rest and keep descending to the WF camp.

Advantages of A: Relatively safer, better acclimatised if bad weather as you spend more time up there.
Cons: If you bail from the Cassin you have to go back to 14 to pick up the stash. Complicated approach.

Advantages of B: Better recovery at low altitude, less comitment, less stuff to take up and down the WB
Cons: Dangerous approach, you need to take snowshoes with you.

The fine print...

Bear in mind that once you are out of the Japanese couloir the only way out is via the summit or in a wooden box. If you plan for 5 days it will take you 8. The way off the summit is not obvious if untracked, and very serious in a white out/bad weather (Deaths up there last week for that very reason). Bivy kit will only work for one night, after that you'll have a soggy down bag with the insulation of a Tesco carrier bag, so if you don't make it in 2 days you'll be well and truly f***ed, and there's no rescue up there. It gets bitterly cold, more than you can ever imagine. VS at 14,000ft feels like E5, in big boots, with crampons. The 'real' atmospheric altitude in AK is roughly 1,000m higher than down south, so at 6,000 there's the same oxygen as it would be at 7,000m in the Himalayas. Have back-up plans in case the Cassin is not in good nick, as the first 2 weeks you will lose them getting high and acclimatising, leaving you a window of 2 weeks to do the climb.

Good luck.

In reply to Mr Lopez:
The 'real' atmospheric altitude in AK is roughly 1,000m higher than down south, so at 6,000 there's the same oxygen as it would be at 7,000m in the Himalayas.

Yeh ... not really. A very debatable point, with lots of factors, but at *most* it is 10%, if that. This was first proposed by Alaskan climber and scientist Terris Moore decades ago, he was the first to come up with the 10%, and it has been variously ridiculed and supported since. It has to do with lower air pressure at the Poles, so physiologically they are 'higher'. However, Denali (63N) is a long way from the North Pole, and North Americans rankle at having such a relatively low mountain, in world terms, as their hight point, so they literally big it up - the Arg do the same with Aconcagua. On the summit of Vinson (4892m, 78S) wrist altis often read 5300m, and at the South Pole (2835m, 90S) they have a 20% rate of flight incomers needing medical attention for AMS (some take Diamox).

I've been to the summits of Denali, Vinson and Aconcagua, the South Pole, and 6800m in the Himalaya and would say no-way did Denali feel anything like more than about 6300m, if that. Ridiculously cold in the shade though, and some terrible storms.

Tom, some good gear info at http://www.cosmin-andron.com/2010/07/cassin-ridge-solo/ and I assume you've read the free online Cassin topo from Supertopo.com

OlyMons are great, but do you think you can climb the rock in the JC in OlyMons and crampons? Reports vary, they used to say 5.9, but friends have reported it as less.

The plan of spending time at 14k is a good one, and a common one that often kills the desire to climb the Cassin. Also good to summit, IMO, as you get the descent from the summit dialled, which is where some summiters come to grief in bad weather. I thought it was fine, but I had good weather, had only come up the normal route, though there was not always a track. Some of it is a bit indistinct. Small GPS might be good.

Varying reports on those descent routes from 14k camp to the start of the Cassin. There are at least three possibles, incl the 72 ramp, but I think you really need to suss them out with a recce, as they are commiting, hard to re-ascend(?) and put you in a dangerous valley. Some friends got stopped on one with waist-deep snow and were exhausted by the time they got to the JC.

<.... and incur High Altitude Sickness (PD/CD etc).>

Apologies - got the terminology mixed up, and I've no idea how I came up with PD and CD; it must have been late! Should have written Acute Mountain Sickness, HAPE and HACE - America spells oedema without the "o".

In reply to Tom Ripley:

more from a skiing point of view but wildsnow might have some useful stuff:

http://www.wildsnow.com/3368/denali-mckinley-gear-tip/

Cheers for humoring me so far folks!

To Damo: Why can I mixed climb in Olymons? Is the fit way different to Spantiks? Would I be better off with them and a pair of 40 belows in the sack?

Why would a 14k BC kill the desire to kill the Cassin?

I agree that it is a good idea to have summited at least once and have gone up to the 17k camp a couple of times. What is the other Japanese Couloir? Is that a feature on the West Rib, between 14k and 17k?

What are the other options for descending from 14k to the bottom of the Cassin? The Seatle 72 ramp, which sounds a good option. The West Rib, which sounds like a ball ache. Other options?

I don't really fancy the valley of death.

Any good online source of info on Denali? I presume there are dozens of other routes on Denali? Denali Diamond and Scott-Haston route. Does anyone know of a good topo.

I've got the Supertopo book. Is there a more detailed/comprehensive guide?

I like Oscar's idea of a single carry to 11k and then a double carry to 14k.

Would folk recommend skis or snowshoes for this? What about short approach skis?

Is the Cassin really un-retreatable from the top of the Jap couloir?

What do folk think about using a jet boil? Or would it be better to get a flap put in the floor of the bivi tent and use an xgk?

Cheers...

In reply to Tom Ripley:Hi Tom-Dont know about online refs but best reference book on Denali is Jonathan Watermans 'High Alaska' A few years old now but an excellent read as are most of his books Fairly good route descriptions of all major routes on Denali Hunter and Huntington
http://jonathanwaterman.com/books.htm
Other interesting reads are the story of John Waterman`s (A different one!) solo of Hunter which took him 145 days A brief report in here
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0303/story.html

In reply to Tom Ripley:

Just the way it is. Actually going to the mountain, getting on it, being there, exerting yourself, getting cold, tired, stormed on, camp food - all just to go up the West Butt. It drains the well of desire required for any big mountain route. Ask the Rangers about it, plenty of people put 'Cassin' in the intentions book in Talkeetna but many of them never get near it, ditto the West Rib. But if you do it, good on you!

OlyMons seem to have a bit more flex in the ankle than Spantiks and seem a bit softer overall. They're not really meant for steeper tech stuff, more cold plodding. Depends how they fit you though ...

Skis? If you're already a very good skier and can ski downhill with a laden sled then skis are best - they usually are in such cases. But if you can't ski well, that is no place to learn. Snowshoes are uncool, but quite practical and idiot-proof (I should know).

Stove? I only used Primus MF/MSR Dfly there, no canisters. People do it, but requires management for decent performance in such cold. I've used canisters in -25C at 6000m elsewhere and they were lethally hopeless.

We did single-carry to 11k then double carry - no sleds - to 14k and I still think that is best. We went early/mid May and Windy Corner was angled blue-ice, no place to faff with a sled.

Greetings from Talkeetna. Just got to the top of Denali on Monday. Planned upper west rib but due to weather and time, just sneaked in a normal ascent. After 2.5 weeks, I feel more beat up than 2 months in the Himalayas.

There is currently another ukclimbing member and superb photographer (hint) doing something like you propose.

I will provide more info when I get back to my laptop in anchorage.