UKC

Alpine Up with a single rope.

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 David Coley 10 Sep 2021

Hi.

I find it locks up fine with double ropes when one strand is pulled, but if I use just one rope it doesn't lock (tested by yanking the rope, not real fall). With one rope, it seems to twist on the belay krab. Is it double/twin ropes only? 

Thanks

In reply to David Coley:

To be boring, you need (as in one needs) to read the manual, watch the advice videos and practice. The manual refers specifically to single rope use, and I’ve used it exclusively for single rope sport climbing.

Go to the climbing technology site. 
 

I have used this device for many years and think it’s fantastic, but it does require perhaps more time investment than other devices.

> Hi.

> I find it locks up fine with double ropes when one strand is pulled, but if I use just one rope it doesn't lock (tested by yanking the rope, not real fall). With one rope, it seems to twist on the belay krab. Is it double/twin ropes only? 

> Thanks

 Ciro 10 Sep 2021
In reply to David Coley:

> Hi.

> I find it locks up fine with double ropes when one strand is pulled, but if I use just one rope it doesn't lock (tested by yanking the rope, not real fall).

Did you forget to hold the break strand? This is the only way I can think of, of preventing the assist. In practice, a fall is going to lock in over 99% of falls even if you don't hold the break strand, however a tug will probably not. Regardless, you should never let go of it.

> With one rope, it seems to twist on the belay krab. Is it double/twin ropes only? 

You must be doing something wrong, but I'm at a loss to think of a way that you could cause it to twist and fail to lock.

I've never had a problem using it for sport climbing with a skinny triple-rated rope - it's always just worked.

 David Coley 10 Sep 2021
In reply to aostaman:

Thanks. Yep I downloaded the instructions. I can't find anything about single rope use, but I am working off my phone so I might have missed something.

Just to clarify, I've used the device a lot with twins. I'm now looking at its ability to lock given an momentarily inattentive belayer, or a fall when giving slack, so not really holding hard on the brake strand. With double ropes it locks, hands free (I'm not suggesting one does this) with a single strand of petzl opera it doesn't. 

In reply to David Coley:

> Thanks. Yep I downloaded the instructions. I can't find anything about single rope use, but I am working off my phone so I might have missed something.

> Just to clarify, I've used the device a lot with twins. I'm now looking at its ability to lock given an momentarily inattentive belayer, or a fall when giving slack, so not really holding hard on the brake strand. With double ropes it locks, hands free (I'm not suggesting one does this) with a single strand of petzl opera it doesn't. 

Mine doesn't lock hands free on a single strand of 8.5 genesis but if I just move the strand behind me without grabbing it, it seems to lock OK (i.e. it's redirected to create a little bit of tension). 

Not tried with thicker ropes)

In reply to David Coley:

The 'specific instructions', (their term, not mine) does specify for single ropes 8,6 mm, is the opera not 8.5?. Are they dry treated and new by any chance. Also check instruction 4.2 re single ropes. Even so, you have to hold the break strand

It's difficult to read these things on a full screen, but it is worth it, I have even printed them out and taken them to a wall. 

It's one of the few bits of gear where I read the instructions and more than once. The other is the Petzl Connect.

If you're new to the device or relatively inexperienced, I would suggest non pressurised situation practice, particularly abseiling. Get it right it's the safest device I know, you can probably tell I'm a believer in this device.

 Stegosaur 10 Sep 2021
In reply to David Coley:

It can be used with single ropes. Are you using the recommended carabiner, the CT Concept?

Post edited at 13:40
In reply to aostaman:

Curiously I spotted in the instructions not to abseil on a single line. Not entirely sure if this has to do with heat, or twisting, or... 

Though I wonder if it means abseiling on a fixed single strand, or abseiling with a doubled over single (which would be pretty friction heavy)

It also seems to suggest a regular non-locking mode abseil would be fine however, suggesting it is referring to the doubled over method


 Ciro 10 Sep 2021
In reply to Andy Ovens - UKC and UKH:

Interesting... I abseil on a single strand in locking mode regularly with no issues.

Maybe they're concerned about a very skinny single line without a backup?

 Ciro 10 Sep 2021
In reply to David Coley:

> Thanks. Yep I downloaded the instructions. I can't find anything about single rope use, but I am working off my phone so I might have missed something.

> Just to clarify, I've used the device a lot with twins. I'm now looking at its ability to lock given an momentarily inattentive belayer, or a fall when giving slack, so not really holding hard on the brake strand. With double ropes it locks, hands free (I'm not suggesting one does this) with a single strand of petzl opera it doesn't. 

It's not designed to lock hands free - for that you need an inertial reel device.

> or a fall when giving slack, so not really holding hard on the brake strand.

Perhaps just go back to a non-assisted device for a while and learn how to safely take catches while paying out slack? The AU should be used in exactly the same manner as a tube.

In reply to Ciro:

Yea potentially, or maybe a fat single doubled over, meaning there's just too much friction to progress?

 David Coley 13 Sep 2021
In reply to Ciro:

> Did you forget to hold the break strand? This is the only way I can think of, of preventing the assist. In practice, a fall is going to lock in over 99% of falls even if you don't hold the break strand, however a tug will probably not. Regardless, you should never let go of it.

> You must be doing something wrong, but I'm at a loss to think of a way that you could cause it to twist and fail to lock.

Indeed it locks without holding the strand and double ropes, but not with only a single strand inserted. 

 David Coley 13 Sep 2021
In reply to aostaman:

> The 'specific instructions', (their term, not mine) does specify for single ropes 8,6 mm, is the opera not 8.5?. Are they dry treated and new by any chance. Also check instruction 4.2 re single ropes. Even so, you have to hold the break strand

> If you're new to the device or relatively inexperienced, I would suggest non pressurised situation practice, particularly abseiling.

Thanks.

Indeed 8.5mm, but I would say they are fat 8.5's. My section 4.2 is on belay krabs, so I might have a different pdf? (I downloaded it last week). Normally I would be holding the break strand, but I'm thinking about situations where the second might let go or be inattentive. I'd like to think I'm relatively experienced.

 David Coley 13 Sep 2021
In reply to Ciro:

> It's not designed to lock hands free - for that you need an inertial reel device.

Understood, but these things happen.

> Perhaps just go back to a non-assisted device for a while and learn how to safely take catches while paying out slack?

That last bit is very interesting to me. I'm wondering how many people have practiced this for real, i.e. letting out one rope whilst talking in the other whilst the leader is not in sight and holding an unexpected fall on either rope. It would make for a fun evening down the wall. I'm guessing very few people have done this. Great idea. I've been doing this with people, but only with a single rope.

> The AU should be used in exactly the same manner as a tube.

This is one reason I'm taken by the the device rather than a giga Jul, as it builds in the same movements as a belay plate.

 David Coley 13 Sep 2021
In reply to Stegosaur:

> It can be used with single ropes. Are you using the recommended carabiner, the CT Concept?

yep

In reply to David Coley:

I have an alpine up too, and found it completely useless with 10mm single rope. Useless as in it takes the hulk to remove it from the 'locked' position. It always locked fine though, just unlocking was such a pain that it now just sits under my bed collecting dust. 

 David Coley 13 Sep 2021
In reply to StoneG:

Thanks, if you would like to donate it for being used in group teaching, I can send you my address!

In reply to David Coley:

Will keep you in mind, but I'm hoping to get more involved in trad in the spring and I'm hoping it works better with half ropes than it does with singles. It's a cool piece of kit, just a bit of a bad buy for what I primarily climb. Just wanted to warn others that it seems quite useless on fatter ropes. 

 David Coley 13 Sep 2021
In reply to StoneG:

With doubles, it is better with my 8.3mm than 8.5mm. 

 Ciro 13 Sep 2021
In reply to David Coley:

> Understood, but these things happen.

> That last bit is very interesting to me. I'm wondering how many people have practiced this for real, i.e. letting out one rope whilst talking in the other whilst the leader is not in sight and holding an unexpected fall on either rope. It would make for a fun evening down the wall. I'm guessing very few people have done this. Great idea. I've been doing this with people, but only with a single rope.

I once got dropped by someone new to double ropes, so it's certainly worth a bit of practice.

The easiest and most foolproof way to bring in slack on one rope is to pay out an armful on the other rope, take in an armful on both, repeat.

That way your brake hand never really does anything it wouldn't be doing on a single rope, and catching an unexpected fall should be automatic at any point in the process.

 Ciro 13 Sep 2021
In reply to David Coley:

> Indeed it locks without holding the strand and double ropes, but not with only a single strand inserted. 

It's not guaranteed in either scenario - it's outside the design spec, and shouldn't be relied upon.

 David Coley 13 Sep 2021
In reply to Ciro:

> It's not guaranteed in either scenario - it's outside the design spec, and shouldn't be relied upon.

Understood. I'm not going rope soloing. But if it works 9 times out of ten, hell that's worth it 


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