UKC

Just bought a pair of mountaineering boots. However when buying my last pair some 7 or 8 years ago, I was told then that there should hardly be any heel movement or none at all on inclines.

The shop I bought it from appeared to be of the opinion that a little heel movement is good (can you guess yet if I have some heel movement?!). There is no heel movement when walking on the flat though, but there's likely to be a fair bit of ascending with any mountaineering... I have since trawled the net and UKC for information on this and struggled to come up with a definitive answer.

My findings were, in favour:

Heel lift means more room for feet, and especially in a stiff boot is ok because the foot is not designed to walk totally flat. There also has been the argument put forward that it improves circulation in the foot.

Against (and the bit that really concerns me):

Prone to blisters? I am not too sure of the implications when climbing with crampons on though.

To top all of this off, I found something that Andy Kirkpatrick said which seems to be of relevance here - the boots are meant primarily for walking when mountaineering so bear this in mind. Means you climb in comfort!

I would appreciate other people's input on this, preferably only those with very stiff boots and experiences in them on both walking / climbing, if one is affected more than the other.

Boots can be returned as only have worn them in the house, but I cannot get blisters from just walking in the house and wearing them outside will wreck any value of the boots if returning. Thanks.

In reply to Scraggadoo:

I get a little heel lift from my winter boots (la sportiva nepals) which has been enough to give me blisters from time to time, although interesting it seems to be far worse on tracks with a slighty incline and they dont seem to bother me when moving on steeper, more uneven ground (presumably because you walk in a different way on this type of terrain).

Personaly i would be happier with no heel lift at all in my boots and dont think it would cause any problems, so long as they're not too tight.

In reply to Scraggadoo:

I feel that there shouldnt be any heel lift what so ever. It will as you have stated cause uncomfort and blisters. Also if you have heel lift now, imagine how exagerated it will become when you put a pair of crampons on!

Mainly though a boot where heel lift is prestent, wouldnt give me much confidence when it came to climbing either.

HTH

Allan

In reply to Scraggadoo:

try inserting a pad under the insole of your boot, like cutting an older insole down to size. This can push your heel up slightly taking some volume out of the boot and reduce heel lift.

Allan

In reply to vincentvega and Stuzz:

Thanks for your responses. Seems like it pretty much confirms what I was originally thinking. I have tried standing on edges of stairs and there doesn't seem to be much heel lift, only very slight movement so I don't think it's going to be an issue when climbing. The problem doesn't seem to be as bad as I thought it was originally.

I still think it would be interesting to know what people's opinions are as there doesn't seem to be a definite answer. Andy Kirkpatrick said a little movement was ok from my searching on ukc.

In reply to Scraggadoo: I wear my boots slack for the walk in with plenty of lift, then tie them down tight before donning crampons.

In reply to Removed User: No heel lift when donning crampons then? Or just minimised as far as possible?

In reply to Scraggadoo: I got real skinny flat feet, I can't get rid of lift completely.

have a very slight heel on mine. I have dodgy knees and it makes all the difference when walking uphill on an approach and I don't notice any inconvenience when climbing either.

In reply to Scraggadoo:
Here's my 2ps worth as a boot fitter and a winter climber.

A little heal movement in winter boots is inevitable (the sole unit is much stiffer than your foot is) but this shouldnt be enought movement to cause blistering, which suggests the heal isn't propperly in the heal cup, or their is too much volume in the boot. There are ways of fixing this (tongue depressors, insoles, heal pinching) and any good boot fitter should offer this as an after service.

The best thing I did for my winter boots was replace the insoles with orthotics. If you haven't done this already, I'd really recommmend you too, even if you dont think you need them. The benefits are subtle but in the long term vastly benefitial if you use yer boots regularly.

Hope they end up good!

Trist

In reply to Removed User, grindelwald & smelly fox: Thanks all for your responses. I feel a little better now knowing your personal experiences.

Smelly Fox, they did say that they could play around with volume reducers etc if it still is a problem, but I was thinking that if you have a boot properly fitted then there shouldn't really be any need for them in the first place?

Also, when you refer to orthotics what difference do they really make?

Thanks.

In reply to Scraggadoo: Orthotics keep your feet happy and supported. Most people who know what they are doing when they sell you a pair of boots like that will recommend you a pair of orthotics. You carry a lot possibly, walk far over rough terrain, crampons on hard surfaces and I know how many times I tend to take little jumps etc when on rocky terrain. That they tend to stop your feet from sliding around in the boot is only a nice added bonus

In reply to Scraggadoo: I had this problem and had to play around with inserts to get the balance right. I ended up with a different insole than the one that came with the boot with an orthotic on top of that. I got my orthotics from drfoot or drfeet.co.uk (cant remember which). I only got teh orthotics as I have flat feet collapsed arches and so these help reduce that problem. Also I think some insoles that come with a boot don't offer much in the way of cushioning and so replacing them with speciailised ones helps in that way too. Good luck.

In reply to Scraggadoo:
volume reducers are rarely the answer to heal lift.

You have to remember that winter boots are built on a last, that is an average foot shape. The boot have a stiffer upper than other footwear. It's highly unlikely that your foot will reflect this last shape identically. Some tweeking is almost inevitable in most cases.

Re your orthotics question. Firstly they stabalise your feet in the boots, limiting any pressure elongation and slippage. They also improve your gait by not allowing the foot to over-pronate, which has the benefit of improving posture, and making you feel less tired at the end of a long day. Worth their weight in gold.

Hope that helps.

In reply to Scraggadoo:


Well, a boot fitting won't change the shape of the boot, or your feet. So it's really just a process of trying to find a boot that fits your feet best, out of the range of boots on offer. If your feet don't accord with the last used to make the boot, no amount of 'fitting' will make it so, and you'll have to take steps (sorry) to correct this. Ideally, if the fitting has been done well, your feet and boots should be a fairly good match, and you shouldn't need anything too drastic; sometimes the answer to heel lift is a different lacing approach to lock the boot opening better. If your feet and boots are significantly different, you may need to add things to bring them to a closer match; orthotics, tongue depressors, volume reducers, etc.

In reply to captain paranoia:

Fair enough if you have a big selection to try on. In my experience most outdoor retailers only seem to offer two or three to choose from (some even only one). Annoyingly most seem to only stock the same as their competitors. Those don't seem good odds to me.

Im sure some specalist shops can offer a better range, but there ain't any where I'm from.

Oh and I don't agree with your first sentence. You absolutely can change the shape of just about any boot. Within sensible parameters of course.

In reply to Smelly Fox:


Sorry should have mentioned I was talking about C3 winter climbing boots in particular.

In reply to Scraggadoo:

you may never eliminate heel lift completely - particularly if your feet are broad at the forefoot and narrow at the heel (as your having to buy wider boots). Different lacing arrangements can help, and you can minimise the likelihood of blisters with a couple of strips of zinc oxide tape across the heel area. This will not only provide a barrier against abrasion but will also take up a little of the space causing the heel to lift.

In reply to Glyno:

regarding zinc oxide tape - the stuff you get from Boots/Superdrug is cack! This stuff is much better and sticks like sh*t to a blanket!
http://www.firstaid4sport.co.uk/Strappal-Zinc-Oxide-Tape--P4650/

In reply to Smelly Fox: You recommend that orthotics are used even if I don't think I need them. Can you tell me what specifically you mean because there are various orthotics available for different conditions. I presume you are on about custom moulded ones?

Or does a professional need to identify which may be most suitable (probably the best option but likely the most expensive as well!).

Thanks.

Glyno, yes I'm aware of zinc oxide and their benefits but didn't know that the other stuff is better, thanks for the recommendation.

In reply to Scraggadoo:
Orthotics don't have to be corrective. Sports orthotics are widely used by runners, skiers, etc to improve performance rather than fix a foot problem. Superfeet and Comforable are the two main players I have used and liked. They do "step-in" or "custom" models. Google them.

In reply to Smelly Fox:
Comformable should read Conformable. Sorry!

In reply to Smelly Fox:


We may be talking about different things when we refer to 'boot fitting'. I'm talking about the process of selecting a boot from a range to find one that best suits your foot, not the process of re-shaping the boot to make it fit your foot.

I'm aware that boot re-shaping can be used with plastics (and, to some extent (stretching), with leather boots), but I wasn't including that within my 'boot fitting'.

And yes, if there's a limited selection of boots to try, it makes finding a well-fitting boot more difficult.

In reply to Scraggadoo:

Different lacing formats should be tried when trying to adapt the fit of a boot. Double looping the laces at specific points can be helpful as can lacing to the top then looping back down to a lower point to tie off.

Controlling volume is also important. Two socks are always a good plan but you might choose the weight of the second sock to occupy excessive volume in the boot. An extra insole is useful for reducing volume and does so without reducing width or length. Extra insoles change the height at which the foot sits in the boot and therefore the relationship between the heel and the boot: sometimes useful, sometimes not.


(Modern lace hooks are a pest. I bought a pair of Zamberlains from Tiso with those stupid hinged things. The boots are great but the hooks soon broke and Tisos repaired them with old-fashioned simple hooks. These new hooks are far superior and allow me to lace for a more comfortable fit.)

In reply to Jim Fraser:

Totally agree - recent advice has steered people to use a single pair of socks, but my new boots were the right size length wise but too much volume in the heel. A second pair of socks has made them just about the most comfortable boots I have ever had. I might try volume adjusters but suspect that will just make the heel cup in the wrong place.

In reply to MJH: I already use two pairs of socks. I always have done and this is the norm for me. It's a tried and tested combination for me and if it works, nothing wrong with it. Would suggest you do the same, no need to spend money on volume reducers if it is comfortable.

Unless you have a width issue then that's a different story.

I think my boots will be fine once broken in properly and I've figured out the best way to lace them up. Lacing them up in a certain way has helped to alleviate heel lift.

In reply to Scraggadoo: try some insoles such as superfeet. they are designed so the three arches in your foot are supported and stop any over and under pronation, ie stop your feet stretching and contracting when you take a step. this reduces the movement overall in the boot and also helps hold the shape of your heel.

i had problems with my b3 scarpa freneys on walk-ins until i fitted these, so they worked for me.

do make sure u get them fitted properly though as if you get the wrong size it can cause more problems, not fix them. any decent outdoor shop should be able to do it.

In reply to captain paranoia:

It seems so!

For me a "fitting" is the whole process including after purchace tweeking if we're getting pedantic.

Anyway back to work for me.

Good luck to the OP.

Ciou.