UKC

Original thread here https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/gear/buffalo_takeover_and_website-781974

Just had an email from Buffalo inviting me to look at their new website, so off I clicked. I found a much reduced range of products, and mostly available in either NATO olive green or SAS-Ninja black. I guess they are moving into the bushcraft and T.A. marketplace. I'll just have to keep using my red Montane for another winter (unless there's an outbreak of colour at Buffalo HQ!)

Some of their products look very expensive for what they are.

Most likely just focusing on the colours which they sell best in most products, as AFAIK they're new to DTC sales. Considering they've posted multiple times about MRT team kit I'd imagine they haven't forsaken other colours, just being conservative with their new business plans

PS. I used to work there and I thought they held quite a lot of material stock compared to rate of production so they could also just be working through what they have excess stock of to free up some cash in the business...

They are expensive but they are all made in Sheffield and will last a lifetime 

Based on what? How much do you think manufacturing costs? To cover a living wage in the UK?

Based on other similar products. It's just an observation. £161 for a pertex windshirt seems expensive, I wouldn't spend that on a windproof.

Agree. They charge £35 for a cotton cap which is pricier than sailing gear.

Shit! No Big face shirt, Aaargghhh!!

I tend to agree.

Theres no doubting the quality and robustness of the gear, and it lasts a very long time, my special six shirt is 32 years old. But, the design of the neck and hood hasn’t changed seemingly.

The first thing that you notice when the cold breezes arrive, is that the neck doesn’t fasten up fully, and if you employ the optional hood, it has a very makeshift closure for the face and neck.

This would need to be altered before I would buy another.

To be fair their products seem to last forever.

I'm still using a 30 year old windshirt.

Or salopettes

https://buffalosystems.co.uk/products/online-exclusive-navy-mountain-shirt

One item that's not green/black, can't see anything else 

If I knew my size I would order some special 6 trousers, but they make to order currently so not sure how to try before I buy. Back in the day I had mountain trousers (or similar name)  but the 30" waist *which came up small* was a bit tight in the middle 90s however midriff is far more .. muscular these days.

Everything on the website seems made to order, therefore NO RETURNS!!!

https://buffalosystems.co.uk/pages/returns

2. Non-Returnable Items

The following items are not eligible for return, unless they are defective:

Customised or made to order products

I'm not seeing that, they seem to have stock of off the peg stuff.

I have to wonder how it will pan out for them with the type of product and pricing. It's fairly niche stuff and although it works well for some applications it's not versatile and it's old technology these days. My memory of buffalo gear in the past was that it worked out as a relatively inexpensive alternative as you did away with other layers but it doesn't look so attractive in that regard now.

Maybe the bird watching crowd will buy them.

My experience is that they don't really last a lifetime if you use them a lot and wash them to get rid of the ming. I had the zipped salopettes and the zips failed after maybe 5 or 6 winters of use. The Pertex on my belay jacket still feels ok but I've never washed that more than a few times. On my original mountain shirt and my Big Face Shirt, regular washing softened the Pertex considerably and it became less able to repel water and wet snow, so the performance fell over time. My sleeping bags were ok, but I think my mum once, then me a second time, had to replace zips on the 4S outer from wear. Beyond that I can imagine those last forever - I sold mine on not too long ago after I must have got 20 years of regular use out of it! 

Re old tech - I’d be interested if they had a alpha direct based smock - I think montane did one, but only for one season - OMM have something that looks close in their core range…

I've used the core stuff a lot and think it's fantastic, a genuine game changer for me in terms of temperature/moisture management. However, I think that building it with a windproof outer kind of defeats the purpose or just makes it the same as any other shelled fleece.

It's super air permeable so you can pair it with a separate windproof to keep you warm then open that or take it off to dump heat/let moisture out. Can't do that if it has a shell.

IMO... some big errors there on whoever made these color decisions.. 

"Ideal for a multitude of outdoor uses including higher level winter hill walking and trekking, snow sports, and general outdoor activities."

Thats the blurb for their Alpine Jacket.. (Which I have in a Maroon color)

Surely they realise that people want to be seen in the winter? 
Crazy!

Sidenote - I really like the Alpine Jacket BUT it does have some shortfalls in the Hood area. 

Good feedback - how do you find the different weights temperature wise?

The heavier weight is noticeably warmer, too warm for summer use mostly. The lighter stuff is great under a shell on really wet days, warm enough, wicks well and dries super quickly when you take the shell off. I washed one the other day and it came out of the washing machine almost dry feeling. 10 mins on the line and it was ready to wear.

I wear one heavy and one light layer for winter climbing and it works very well. 

Durability might be an issue, so I don't use them day to day, just when they'll really be of benefit. No problems as yet though.

You can definitely see nipples through the thinner stuff...

You don't even have to wash them a lot. I wore out a tecmax shirt which I wore as a mid/outer layer over t-shirts thus didn't need much washing.  The top back panel tore out of the neck stitching, no doubt from being where I'd grab it to pull it over my head (although I'm careful with my stuff).  It did have a hard life though, and spent a lot of time near the sea which always seems to kill clothing faster than any other environment.

And how are the hoods? They look rubbish, how are they in practice?

They're ok, seems to stay in place under a helmet but due to the nature of the fabric they aren't very warm unless your shell hood is up. 

I know pretty much everything is expensive but those prices surprised me! If you want to add a hood, that's another £60 on top too?!

I guess most of their sales will be military etc who are stood around a bit hence the colour, but the outdoor industry is pretty fashion conscious so I can't see the younger generations buying these.

I can't see the brand surviving in a sense now it's been taken over by Fogle and his Saville Row business partner.. if they change them a lot, like they would need to for a sales increase then it just wouldn't compete with the crazy amount of other brands (and better options)... if they stay the same it's a small niche market so unlikely to satisfy the financial needs of the new owners... 

My 20 - 30 year old top (I don't even know what it's called now) is still going strong, but is redundant as they are too hot for everything bar a really cold Winters day.

(I do hope they survive though)

I winter climbed in pertex and pile jackets of various types off and on for about 20 years. I finally realised that I was hardly ever the right temperature in it. It was too hot for strenuous climbing so I'd arrive at a belay a sweaty mess then gradually get chilled. Adding a belay jacket didn't help much as I was damp and the combo of buffalo and belay jacket filled my rucksack and weighed a ton on the walk in.

I think I persevered because they just seemed so cozy and robust but it really wasn't the best tool for the job. When belay jackets came along I realised it was better to wear less leading so I didn't sweat as much then get in the belay jacket.

I suppose it's still a decent system for standing around in cold, damp conditions though.

Similar experience here. For me my mountain shirt was perfect for walking in the cairngorms in precipitation at a tempterature of between -1 and 1, basically the worst possible scenario for staying dry and warm, but if it was warmer I would be too hot and if it was colder I would get cold due to all the gaps, the wind would whip straight through those side body zips (when worn with nothing underneath, as intended), the neck as others have said left something to be desired (only a pretty naff velcro fastening at the collar), and no hood. For standing around and beating up in not quite so horrid weather I found it a decent do-everything outer layer, to keep warm and cosy, but at the current prices I would never buy one. I also had the montane equivalent and the 'technical' features were miles better although the buffalo pertex seemed tougher.

I still have the buffalo and I think I will dig it out and perhaps use it for winter coastal fishing.

It is obviously a UK outdoors cult classic but I'm not sure that's enough to sustain the business really. Good luck to them, maybe they have some great innovations on the way that will change things.

Merkins

Montane did and I have it. The shell is quite air permeable , thus air resistant rather than windproof. 

I wonder what was paid to buy the business.

I don't think the design has changed at all. Whereas over the last 30 years or so, other outdoor gear has become far more carefully tailored*, with much improved fit and features. Admittedly, there have been plenty of 'the next big thing' over that period, which have come and gone.

* even Paramo...

Buffalo might be one of a stable of boutique brands with something in common that will support a marketing redirect into other demographics, playing on the existing values of tradition, authentic outdoorsiness, practicality, loyal following etc. Publicly he does seem to favour neutral-toned natural fibres in classic styles over bright synthetic technical garments.

I'm guessing there'll be some degree of cross-pollination with other connected brands:

(eg. https://www.johnlewis.com/content/fashion/men/ben-fogle-interview)

Yes, it's expensive for what it is but the image of Landroverish simplicity might be part of the overall branding strategy. 

They don't last forever. I wore a Mountain Shirt regularly and it died in 10 years or less, torn around the collar long before then. Too hot for many things, too restrictive to climb in, too inflexible for expeditions.

Trouser waist sizes 28"-40" but all come standard with 31" leg? Oddities like that might need rethinking.

An rrp of £75 for Buffalo mitts is mental.

Can’t have been that many years ago they were £25.

As great as I think they are, I'm not paying £75 for a pair!

All shortly coming to a telly near you:

https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/celebrity-news/ben-fogle-sheffield-julia...

We should have guessed there'd be a TV show in this ...

"in buying a factory for the company, which is best known for its waterproof attire..." someone has never worn a Buffalo in heavy rain! Good luck to them. I'm not actually sure anyone watches Channel 5 but presumably it's free advertising for Buffalo if they do. I suspect he could have sunk his cash into something with a much more secure likelihood of actually making him a return, so he gets no criticism from me for trying to keep some people down the road from here in skilled jobs, and if he ends up making a profit, then brilliant. I doubt Buffalo has ever made big profits.

There was a clip or whatever they are called, on my wife’s instagram last night, with Ben and Steve Backshall plugging the brand.

They were discussing the badge, which depicts a Bison, and were discussing why the brand was called Buffalo, an African bovid, as opposed to Bison.

Ben was wondering whether the name needed changing.

Dave

When I made my comment above I thought I might have been over-egging it a bit, but no, turns out I could have added more egg!

However in that link above I was most shocked by...

"The show sees the company’s designer Nigel Cabourn call him “f****** mad” ..."

Buffalo clothing is 'designed'?!