UKC

I was climbing indoors yesterday, and for the first time in a long time I saw a couple climbing with helmets! Normally the centre makes people on courses wear helmets but everyone else doesn't bother.

Any helmets indoors advocates out there?

 

In reply to springfall2008:

Each to their own. You do what you feel most comfortable with. I certainly wouldn't criticise anyone for making that choice even if I don't myself.

In reply to springfall2008:

Don't ever wear a helmet on an autobelay - if you get hooked on a hold there is a very high chance you will die from asphyxia or if not receive a serious neck injury, and it will take too long for someone to get up and assist you to make any difference.

Other than that I'd say wear one if you want, don't if you don't.  There is a (lowish but non-zero) potential for head injury on an artificial wall, particularly when leading, or even bouldering.

Could one make indoor climbing any more awful than that?

In reply to springfall2008:

A relative was diagnosed with epilepsy a couple of years ago.  She wasn't allowed to drive until she'd been seizure-free for a year.  She carried on indoor climbing during that time, but wore a helmet until she and her doctors were confident that her seizures were controlled by the medication.

In reply to springfall2008:

I've seen one accident and one very close call with people leading indoors where a helmet would have made a difference.   Both involved awkward falls.  The accident was head against a volume but was fortunately not serious.   The close call was where the climber inverted and swung backwards into the wall.  Luckily their shoulder hit a blank area of wall and they walked away uninjured but a few inches away there were huge jugs from an easy route and it could just as easily have been their head swinging into a jug rather than shoulder onto blank wall.

I don't think it is daft to wear a light helmet leading indoors although I don't do so myself.

 

In reply to springfall2008:

Sadly, I think it is inevitable that helmet use will eventually become compulsory indoors, perhaps with some breakout mechanism to prevent hanging up on auto belays. 

It only takes one set of keys, coin, mobile phone absent mindedly left in a pocket or a broken hold to fall and give someone a nasty headache and it is only a matter of time before this happens. The first injury or near miss and the floodgates will open. The risk has been reduced by most walls now having in situ quick draws, but it still exists. 

In reply to Becky E:

Yes, I was going to mention -- if someone's got a "vulnerable brain" because of neurological problems or past concussions, then a very minor knock on the head could have a disproportionate impact. Different people have different levels of risk to consider.

In reply to springfall2008:

Every time I head indoors it's full of helmets. 

In reply to dilatory:

Where are you climbing?

In reply to springfall2008:

I introduced my daughter to climbing at a very young age, and she's always worn a helmet (excluding auto-belays, of course).

Six years on, I've only just recently given her the option of whether she wears one on top-rope indoors (always worn on lead, however, and always outdoors).

She's so used to wearing one, she continues to do so on top-rope.

Cheers

 

In reply to Roland.Online:

Force of habit is incredibly strong in this kind of thing.  Having spent a week sport climbing in Portland a couple of months ago (wearing one for that) it felt really odd not to be wearing one next time I was at the wall.

If someone takes a nasty fall that they perceive it protected them from (even if it actually didn't) that can be even stronger.  About 15 years ago I had a very nasty pushbike crash in which I was knocked off by a car (doing 65mph, he said, and if I was driving that's about what I would have been doing at that location too) while turning right on a dual carriageway (my own stupid fault).  I wasn't actually wearing a cycle helmet, but was carrying a reasonably sized rucksack full of work clothes and shoes.  When I hit the floor (the second time, having landed first on my knee and flipped over) that rucksack being there prevented my head hitting the floor as well, though did mean a bit of whiplash.  For ages after that I felt really exposed if I wasn't carrying a rucksack while cycling, helmet or no.

In reply to springfall2008:

There is one line at my local wall that has a stepped roof with an awkward clip position and frequently has wandering lines that make an inverted fall more likely than I would like. I wear a helmet when I try hard routes on that line.

I've been on the receiving end of a fair bit of banter when I've worn it but the alternative would be not committing to any hard routes on that line. I haven't come across any other lines where I have felt it necessary to wear one.

In reply to springfall2008:

wasn't there a death at a climbing wall recently due to a fatal head injury following a fall?

Helmets will be required soon.

In reply to SDM:

Interesting point.

Incidently my climbing helmet is designed to protect your head from rocks (hard upper shell) but isn't designed to protect you from head injuries. I think you would require a different design of helmet more like the cycle variety to help with head injuries?

In reply to EdS:

Who is going to require that. The insurers already include this risk in their current calculations. H&S will be guided by what is 'normal practice' within Walls (based on sound reasoning that reasonably reduces foreseeable risk). Helmets aren't really designed or tested to protect the head during a fall.

In reply to springfall2008:

This is incorrect. Every helmet on the market apart from the very oldest designs are in fact designed to protect against head injury using the same kind of materials to provide impact protection as cycling helmets. The foam provides the protection, the shell merely protects the foam and adds some penetration resistance. The majority of the protection is provided for crown impact, but there is a requirement for side, front and rear impact protection as well.

The UIAA are looking at introducing protection standards for rim impacts, because there is a general feeling that the current standard could give better all round protection, which would correlate to better head protection in a fall, but there is a delicate balancing act because there is no doubt that more people wear helmets, and more often, because the current standard allows very light, comfortable and well ventilated helmets to be marketed.

In reply to danm:

The new helmets certainly make my ancient Edelrid one look like a museum piece - which is probably the best place for it now, anyway. Next time I go climbing anywhere that I think needs a helmet, I'll be buying a new one.

Last time I climbed, I took my cousin's kids to the local wall - didn't see any need to make them wear helmets for that session.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I'm not convinced about this. I imagine that if you do get hooked up, there's a much higher chance that you are able to free yourself, rather than it being near-certain death as you suggest.

My thought is that if you're unlucky enough to get hooked up by your helmet (which I do agree you shouldn't be wearing on an autobelay), there is a high chance you'll come away with some kind of minor neck injury, and a very remote chance you'll end up dead.

I agree with the jist of your statement: avoid helmets while using an autobelay, but the 'because high chance of death' reasoning doesn't bear scrutiny.

After typing all that, I found this earlier thread on this topic specifically which didn't seem to produce anything to support what you're saying either: https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/walls+training/helmets_and_auto_belay_dev...

 

 

In reply to PM: And to try to explain myself a bit better… risk is often broken down into the chances of something bad happening, and the severity of how bad that thing is:

• Getting hooked up on your helmet during and auto-belay descent: Moderate chances of it happening, probably typically moderate consequences (relative to death, such as an annoying but superficial neck injury) – possibly overall this is 'high risk'
• Getting hooked up on your helmet for a long time and choking to death or breaking your neck: Very small chances of it happening, but catastrophic consequences (dead person, paralysis etc.) – possibly overall also 'high risk', despite low chances of occurrence.

I'm not suggesting that the risk of climbing with a helmet on an auto-belay is low, simply that I don't agree that the chance of dying if you get hooked up is 'very high'.

In reply to danm:

Perhaps I'm putting it the wrong way, but certainly my climbing helmet doesn't have as much impact protection as my cycle helmet, but it does have a hard outer shell where as the cycle helmet has vent holes.

Like this one: https://www.alloutdoor.co.uk/equipment/climbing/black-diamond-half-dome-cli...

Of course a full face motorcycle helmet would be great for head impact protection but not great for climbing in!
 

 

In reply to springfall2008:

You'd be surprised. The test methods are very different, but if you compare impact energies, the climbing helmet offers twice the protection, at least for a crown impact.