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I've just bought a new jolly-orange Petzl helmet, my old carbon-fibre Snowdon Mouldings one is I think 9 or 10 years old. Am I being disloyal to it by going for something new, flashy and excitingly orange? Does carbon fibre weaken with age or is it like the Joe Brown fibre-glass ones which are still as strong as ever after 30 yrs?
Also, my Petzl Meteor is now 6+ years old. How does that foam age? Should I spring for new one before next summer's rock season swings around? I finally replaced my cycling lid this summer, probably 10 years old, and it got me thinking. I jumped up and down on that before putting it in the dustbin so no kid decided to "recycle" it. Strangely satisfying...
I know the bumpf that comes with climbing helmets always says stop using after 5 years - but who ever follows that sensible advice?
Also, my Petzl Meteor is now 6+ years old. How does that foam age? Should I spring for new one before next summer's rock season swings around? I finally replaced my cycling lid this summer, probably 10 years old, and it got me thinking. I jumped up and down on that before putting it in the dustbin so no kid decided to "recycle" it. Strangely satisfying...
I know the bumpf that comes with climbing helmets always says stop using after 5 years - but who ever follows that sensible advice?
In reply to TobyA:
Mine's a Boeri-Sport helmet, made in Italy in a sort of plastic. It's well over 30 years old and looks strong enough to me. A mate who had gone over to more modern devices has recently gone back to using an identical one, of a similar vintage. There's no foam to age, just leather straps and netting. The only bad point is that it's very smooth and head-lights tend to slip a bit.
I reckon I'll change mine if it ever gets broken, not before!
Mine's a Boeri-Sport helmet, made in Italy in a sort of plastic. It's well over 30 years old and looks strong enough to me. A mate who had gone over to more modern devices has recently gone back to using an identical one, of a similar vintage. There's no foam to age, just leather straps and netting. The only bad point is that it's very smooth and head-lights tend to slip a bit.
I reckon I'll change mine if it ever gets broken, not before!
In reply to TobyA:
Apparently Meteors last twice as long if you decorate them with your national flag ....
Apparently Meteors last twice as long if you decorate them with your national flag ....
In reply to tobyfk:
Absolutely dear chap! Those dodgy Europeans see the flag of the fair Britannic Empire advancing up towards them and are extra careful not to drop rocks on those protected by Her Majesty's Royal Navy! Or something...
> (In reply to TobyA)
>
> Apparently Meteors last twice as long if you decorate them with your national flag ....
>
> Apparently Meteors last twice as long if you decorate them with your national flag ....
Absolutely dear chap! Those dodgy Europeans see the flag of the fair Britannic Empire advancing up towards them and are extra careful not to drop rocks on those protected by Her Majesty's Royal Navy! Or something...
In reply to TobyA:
I'm afraid that has ceased to work well since the early 1950s. But the good news is that these days the flag of any democracy (*) with at least one McDonalds branch will do ...
* though there are rumours that an additional rule, stipulating an upper limit of 399 types of national cheese, may soon apply.
I'm afraid that has ceased to work well since the early 1950s. But the good news is that these days the flag of any democracy (*) with at least one McDonalds branch will do ...
* though there are rumours that an additional rule, stipulating an upper limit of 399 types of national cheese, may soon apply.
In reply to TobyA:
I'm no metalagist but doesnt fibre glass suffer realy badly with UV, always had a polymer helmet but from using realy old kayaks made from fibre glass they are normally weak as soggy cardboard within 10 years of production thus most are made from plastic now!
As for age of helmet i replace mine around about every 5 - 6 years as dont realy see the point in going to the bother of looking a prat with a large red plastic knob on my head all in the name of safety if its not actually safe! Kind of destroys the point in wearing a helmet (if you wear one that is)!
> Does carbon fibre weaken with age or is it like the Joe Brown fibre-glass ones which are still as strong as ever after 30 yrs?
I'm no metalagist but doesnt fibre glass suffer realy badly with UV, always had a polymer helmet but from using realy old kayaks made from fibre glass they are normally weak as soggy cardboard within 10 years of production thus most are made from plastic now!
As for age of helmet i replace mine around about every 5 - 6 years as dont realy see the point in going to the bother of looking a prat with a large red plastic knob on my head all in the name of safety if its not actually safe! Kind of destroys the point in wearing a helmet (if you wear one that is)!
In reply to epik:
Metallurgy does not involve the study of glass fibre, since it is not a metal.
> (In reply to TobyA)
> [...]
>
> I'm no metalagist but doesnt fibre glass suffer realy badly with UV,
> [...]
>
> I'm no metalagist but doesnt fibre glass suffer realy badly with UV,
Metallurgy does not involve the study of glass fibre, since it is not a metal.
In reply to TobyA: The same age as the rest of me!
In reply to TobyA:
At work we dump helmets after 4 years.
At work we dump helmets after 4 years.
In reply to TobyA:Interesting,i think the helmet that saved my head this summer was second hand with the bike i bought,and i'd had it for two years,but i've no idea how long the person i bought the bike off had had it,it was quite an old bike,maybe i was pretty lucky if it was old and it still worked. It was a MET Badboy foam helemt with a plastic outer.It didn't occur to me to think about the age being important. My Meteor helmet developed a hidden crack as the springiness in the foam was holding it together,but there was a crack at the front from where i'd dropped it or something,i found it by randomly wandering how strong it was and holding the sides of the helmet and pulling them outwards which opened up the crack.
In reply to SidH:
nothing gets past you cambridge boys does it but you are ofcoarse right just a lazy habit i picked up at uni of calling anyone who dealt with materials as a metalagist! that and the fact i am not sure what the generic word for someone studying materials is Still, sure the metalagists at uni would have known the answer!
> (In reply to epik)
> [...]
>
> Metallurgy does not involve the study of glass fibre, since it is not a metal.
> [...]
>
> Metallurgy does not involve the study of glass fibre, since it is not a metal.
nothing gets past you cambridge boys does it but you are ofcoarse right just a lazy habit i picked up at uni of calling anyone who dealt with materials as a metalagist! that and the fact i am not sure what the generic word for someone studying materials is Still, sure the metalagists at uni would have known the answer!
In reply to epik:
...materials scientist!
...materials scientist!
In reply to epik:
Most kayaks are made from plastic because they are a LOT more resilaint than the fibre glass ones, virtually indestructable even. The change has nothing to do with resistance to UV.
Glass fibre kayaks go like soggy cardboard because the resins used are a compromise and not as waterproof as they could be. Eventually water gets in and wicks along the bond between each fibre and the resin weakening the laminate.
Its my understanding that moulded platics (including those used for helmets and kayaks) degrade far faster in sunlight (UV) than do glass and carbon laminates.
The figure I have been told is that plastic helmets have a life span of circa 5 years (due to UV damage) and glassfibre/ carbon 10 years.
> I'm no metalagist but doesnt fibre glass suffer realy badly with UV, always had a polymer helmet but from using realy old kayaks made from fibre glass they are normally weak as soggy cardboard within 10 years of production thus most are made from plastic now!
Most kayaks are made from plastic because they are a LOT more resilaint than the fibre glass ones, virtually indestructable even. The change has nothing to do with resistance to UV.
Glass fibre kayaks go like soggy cardboard because the resins used are a compromise and not as waterproof as they could be. Eventually water gets in and wicks along the bond between each fibre and the resin weakening the laminate.
Its my understanding that moulded platics (including those used for helmets and kayaks) degrade far faster in sunlight (UV) than do glass and carbon laminates.
The figure I have been told is that plastic helmets have a life span of circa 5 years (due to UV damage) and glassfibre/ carbon 10 years.
In reply to epik: materialogist
In reply to TobyA: I thought this was a follow up to the cold wedding tackle thread...very disturbing UKC today
In reply to epik: 'just a lazy habit i picked up at uni of calling anyone who dealt with materials as a metalagist!'
University of Botswana?
University of Botswana?
In reply to TobyA:
There is more rubbish talked on this subject than there is in land-fill in the whole of Europe.
When I was doing a lot more work with polymers in the 1980s a DuPont newsletter announced that the original weathering test piece of artificial rubber from about 1936 or so was still in one piece on top of a DuPont building somewhere. In recent times we have been reassured that a nylon climbing rope could potentially last 30 years as long as nobody pisses on it.
The reason helmets in work situations (or instructional or rescue situations) are thrown away after a small number of years is that the people involved are not expected to have the knowledge and experience to make a skilled judgement on this matter. Easy solution: bin it.
Then there is the sticker and paint argument. It all gets worse and worse. Paint? OK, so maybe paint's not such a good idea. My position on the sticker argument is simple. What are the chances of there being an adhesive on a sticker in this "c.y.a." day and age that will significantly degrade polyester, polypropylene or polycarbonate? Almost zero. What are the chances that putting stickers on his helmet will make a guy like his helmet, make him proud of his helmet, and make it far more likely that he will wear it? Almost 100%.
Right, sorted.
Can go back to talking about proper climbing issues now please?
There is more rubbish talked on this subject than there is in land-fill in the whole of Europe.
When I was doing a lot more work with polymers in the 1980s a DuPont newsletter announced that the original weathering test piece of artificial rubber from about 1936 or so was still in one piece on top of a DuPont building somewhere. In recent times we have been reassured that a nylon climbing rope could potentially last 30 years as long as nobody pisses on it.
The reason helmets in work situations (or instructional or rescue situations) are thrown away after a small number of years is that the people involved are not expected to have the knowledge and experience to make a skilled judgement on this matter. Easy solution: bin it.
Then there is the sticker and paint argument. It all gets worse and worse. Paint? OK, so maybe paint's not such a good idea. My position on the sticker argument is simple. What are the chances of there being an adhesive on a sticker in this "c.y.a." day and age that will significantly degrade polyester, polypropylene or polycarbonate? Almost zero. What are the chances that putting stickers on his helmet will make a guy like his helmet, make him proud of his helmet, and make it far more likely that he will wear it? Almost 100%.
Right, sorted.
Can go back to talking about proper climbing issues now please?
In reply to Stuart Robinson:
depends on the plastic
depends on the plastic
In reply to TobyA: I was born with mine, admittedly it had a bag to protect it at birth but that was dealt with after a week!
In reply to TobyA: I'd take heed of the five year advice. What price a busted head? When bike racing on the Isle of Man you cannot use a crash helmet over three years old. They must have a good reason for this. Unless they are getting a back hander from the helmet manufacturers!!!!!!
In reply to TobyA:
Toby,
The fact that you are asking this question means that you will have made up your own mind already but are just seeking reassurance.
Go on splash out, you will no doubt climb better without doubts about how good your gear is.
My Motto is
Buy the best there is - it hurts only once
Martin
Toby,
The fact that you are asking this question means that you will have made up your own mind already but are just seeking reassurance.
Go on splash out, you will no doubt climb better without doubts about how good your gear is.
My Motto is
Buy the best there is - it hurts only once
Martin
In reply to Martin Brown:
Hmmm
Interesting discussion and one which I have heen thinking about over the last day or so.
I have an old HB lid, made of fiber-glass, with a manufacture date of Oct 1996. To be truthful I hardly ever use it except for a couple of trips to the alps and traversing the Cullins. Do you reccon that the hat is still useable?
Hmmm
Interesting discussion and one which I have heen thinking about over the last day or so.
I have an old HB lid, made of fiber-glass, with a manufacture date of Oct 1996. To be truthful I hardly ever use it except for a couple of trips to the alps and traversing the Cullins. Do you reccon that the hat is still useable?
In reply to The Lemming:
Didn't think lemmings were too worried about protecting their heads!
Of course it's ok, why on earth wouldn't it be if you've hardly used it? Read above about UV, and then try to think what else could have harmed it... it's not quite like yoghurts, you know.
Didn't think lemmings were too worried about protecting their heads!
Of course it's ok, why on earth wouldn't it be if you've hardly used it? Read above about UV, and then try to think what else could have harmed it... it's not quite like yoghurts, you know.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
Rubber will oxidise and provide an oxygen impermeable, if a brittle, layer to surround the material. As long as the piece is not subjected to mechanical flexing, breaking the oxidised layer and allowing further oxygen ingress then the peice will stay intact for a long time.
All of this off course, means hee haw as helmets are not made of rubber. Plastics do have a finite useful mechanical life and are susceptible to failure after a lot of mechanical stress. How far you want to sail past the manufacturers recommendations is up to you. It's your napper.
> (In reply to TobyA)
> When I was doing a lot more work with polymers in the 1980s a DuPont newsletter announced that the original weathering test piece of artificial rubber from about 1936 or so was still in one piece on top of a DuPont building somewhere.
> When I was doing a lot more work with polymers in the 1980s a DuPont newsletter announced that the original weathering test piece of artificial rubber from about 1936 or so was still in one piece on top of a DuPont building somewhere.
Rubber will oxidise and provide an oxygen impermeable, if a brittle, layer to surround the material. As long as the piece is not subjected to mechanical flexing, breaking the oxidised layer and allowing further oxygen ingress then the peice will stay intact for a long time.
All of this off course, means hee haw as helmets are not made of rubber. Plastics do have a finite useful mechanical life and are susceptible to failure after a lot of mechanical stress. How far you want to sail past the manufacturers recommendations is up to you. It's your napper.
In reply to Removed User:
But what about the assertion that UV degrades the plastics used in helmets, polycarbonate versus polyester/epoxy resin, any truth in it ?
Is there any useful info an how much strength the helmets have lost after 5 or 10 years of use ?
> All of this off course, means hee haw as helmets are not made of rubber. Plastics do have a finite useful mechanical life and are susceptible to failure after a lot of mechanical stress. How far you want to sail past the manufacturers recommendations is up to you. It's your napper.
But what about the assertion that UV degrades the plastics used in helmets, polycarbonate versus polyester/epoxy resin, any truth in it ?
Is there any useful info an how much strength the helmets have lost after 5 or 10 years of use ?
In reply to epik: polymer engineer
In reply to Stuart Robinson:
The reduction in strength of plastics is in part due to UV degradation and also the loss of the plasticizer elements (additives which make it flexible) which tend to be mildly volatile and leach out over time, so temperature has alot to do with it too.. Troll did some rough tests of UV/heat damage in Wadi Rum,Jordan in early ´90s which showed slings and harness strength could reduce by up to 50% in just 4 months exposure in the desert. Hence never trust old tat to abseil!
I think that simillar effects would occut for polycarbonate/PVC helmets. The effects onthe resin bonded oneswill be less as they rely much less on plasticizers to maintain their structure.
Cheers, Ollie.
The reduction in strength of plastics is in part due to UV degradation and also the loss of the plasticizer elements (additives which make it flexible) which tend to be mildly volatile and leach out over time, so temperature has alot to do with it too.. Troll did some rough tests of UV/heat damage in Wadi Rum,Jordan in early ´90s which showed slings and harness strength could reduce by up to 50% in just 4 months exposure in the desert. Hence never trust old tat to abseil!
I think that simillar effects would occut for polycarbonate/PVC helmets. The effects onthe resin bonded oneswill be less as they rely much less on plasticizers to maintain their structure.
Cheers, Ollie.
In reply to Stuart Robinson:
UV and oxygen are the enemy of almost all polymers. These can be countered during compounding by adding UV absorbers and antioxidants. The amount added and the type of polyemer used, combined with the end use of the product will determine the useful life. So in short "how long is a piece of string".
The manufacturers will obvioulsy put a "replace by" date well within the time scale they'd expect a likelihood of failure. Up to you...
UV and oxygen are the enemy of almost all polymers. These can be countered during compounding by adding UV absorbers and antioxidants. The amount added and the type of polyemer used, combined with the end use of the product will determine the useful life. So in short "how long is a piece of string".
The manufacturers will obvioulsy put a "replace by" date well within the time scale they'd expect a likelihood of failure. Up to you...
In reply to TobyA:
I have a not as shiny, duller than when it was really bright orange Joe Brown original. AKA "the baked bean lid", I don't know how old it is because it was passed down to me by my uncle Nigel who was mostly active as a climber in the eighties.
It still performs well at deflecting small rocks and bits of gear that get thrown my way. if it would stop a small boulder, i have no idea, but the i think that would be the least of my worries. it certainly shows signs of abuse, inlcuding a mysterious burn mark inside the helmet where i believe it was onced used as an impromptu BBQ/ashtray.
I wear my mtb lid when climbing on natural grit, because i think two-three inches of foam is going to protect my head a lot better than a 1 inch thick climbing lid!
I have a not as shiny, duller than when it was really bright orange Joe Brown original. AKA "the baked bean lid", I don't know how old it is because it was passed down to me by my uncle Nigel who was mostly active as a climber in the eighties.
It still performs well at deflecting small rocks and bits of gear that get thrown my way. if it would stop a small boulder, i have no idea, but the i think that would be the least of my worries. it certainly shows signs of abuse, inlcuding a mysterious burn mark inside the helmet where i believe it was onced used as an impromptu BBQ/ashtray.
I wear my mtb lid when climbing on natural grit, because i think two-three inches of foam is going to protect my head a lot better than a 1 inch thick climbing lid!
In reply to TobyA: 34 years
In reply to TobyA:
My trusty Ultimate Fibreglass lid is still going strong after about 30 years. It's a bit on the heavy side, lacks ventilation, and felt like I had a pressure cooker on my head when climbing in the Emirates in summer!
I'd still fancy my chances with it on compared to some of these new lightweight jobbies.
My trusty Ultimate Fibreglass lid is still going strong after about 30 years. It's a bit on the heavy side, lacks ventilation, and felt like I had a pressure cooker on my head when climbing in the Emirates in summer!
I'd still fancy my chances with it on compared to some of these new lightweight jobbies.
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